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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2006Quick question
Scared into going for PSA....not that I reckon they are worth it but did it anyway..... a week ago. Results back today. Going to make an appointment for some time next week to go talk to the doc. What I would like to know is what is expected to be normal in the results. An acquaintance had "barely able to be noticed" elevation in his results and he insists on further tests. Scan of prostate showed some sort of shadow considered not worth looking at and he insisted on a biopsy. That confirmed cancer and he had it taken out. Surgeon said it was within 3 or 4 days of bursting out of the prostate it was *SO* aggressive. So, you can understand that being scared by that into my first PSA ever (told 7 years ago to go regularly because of major prostate problems and never did), I am really unsure what to believe is considered "nothing to worry about" because if the acquaintance had have believed that, he may not have been here next year. Thanks for any help. Your friend's case seems very unusual. We would need a lot more info but PCa doesn't burst, it creeps. It creeps at different rates for different men but it creeps nontheless. You would do well to keep that image out of your head. Sounds like an overly melodramatic dr. to me ..."Thank God you came to me. I saved your life...etc.". Take things one step at a time and try to relax. We all know how you feel and are here to help. Keep us posted. Tom > Scared into going for PSA....not that I reckon they are worth it but did it > anyway..... a week ago. Results back today. Going to make an appointment for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cancer and he had it taken out. Surgeon said it was within 3 or 4 days of > bursting out of the prostate it was *SO* aggressive. Prostate cancer is usually very slow growing, even in aggressive cases. There is no reason for you to panic. Take it one step at a time. You might also try reading one of several books about prostate cancer, ites detection, and treatment. I like Peter Scardino's "The Prostate", and Patrick Walsh's "Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer", either of which should be at any decent public library. You might also look at the website www.phoenix5.org. > So, you can understand that being scared by that into my first PSA ever > (told 7 years ago to go regularly because of major prostate problems and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks for any help. > Scared into going for PSA....not that I reckon they are worth it but did it > anyway..... a week ago. Results back today. Going to make an appointment for > some time next week to go talk to the doc. Did you get your results yet? Doesn't seem like anyone answered what's normal. If it's under 4, it depends on other factors. A digital rectal exam, for one thing. Your age, for another. 4 or higher, take action right away. Action meaning to start finding out why. If you have had prostate problems like prostatitis, that could cause a high PSA so it doesn't necessarily mean cancer. It could, though. If its 10-20, I think that is like a 2 out of 3 chance of cancer. If its over 20, I think its a 97% chance of cancer. Still, the guys are right about it creeping, not exploding. The whole subject is so much more complex, but basically no doctor could honestly say "you were days away from it getting out." When it's that close, they can't tell until later if the surgery got it all, or not. So either he is 99.9% sure they got it all, meaning it was very local, in which case it was no emergency, or else he is blowing smoke. Tell your friend to get his regular post-surgical PSAs done. The real reason I wrote was to find out what you learned today. Hope it was good news but even if it's high, no reason to panic. >> Scared into going for PSA....not that I reckon they are worth it but did >> it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Did you get your results yet? Doesn't seem like anyone answered what's > normal. If it's under 4, it depends on other factors. A digital Thanks for the figures. No, no-one before you mentioned them. > The real reason I wrote was to find out what you learned today. Hope > it was good news but even if it's high, no reason to panic. Actually, I said the results were due then but I wasn't able to go back till next week. I work for myself and normally you can pick a day to go. Not this week, though! I am not panicking about it but to be honest, going for the PSA at all really is what anyone who knows me locally would call panic for me. I have many health problems but am well known for not really giving a sh.t about it all most of the time which, ironically, turns out to be better for the heart problem than remembering I actually have one. :) "Slightly Unsure" <wrote > Actually, I said the results were due then but I wasn't able to go back > till next week. Telephone. I.P. > "Slightly Unsure" <wrote >> Actually, I said the results were due then but I wasn't able to go back >> till next week. > > Telephone. Well, I know I have digital rectal exams but really, I am not that sorta guy! :) Oh, you mean to get the results from the doc? This is something that they are wholely unlikely to do here. Most doctors want the fee for the appointment so unless you are seriously bad, they wont tell you a thing ("tell you a THINK" for the under 21s reading this) over the phone. > "I.P. Freely" succinctly suggested when >> >> "Slightly Unsure" <wrote >>> the results were due then but I wasn't able to go back till next week. >> Telephone. > This is something that they are wholely unlikely to do here. Most doctors > want the fee for the appointment so ... > they wont tell you a thing over the phone. I was puzzled, and ready to suggest you change docs or at least ask the receptionist for the data, until I noticed those two little vowels at the end of your message address. I still suggest you at least call the office and ask the question, though, unless you've found that unproductive or even forbidden in the past. It sure makes life simpler for everyone involved when we can take care of some of the little tasks by phone, e-mail, carrier pidgeon, Kangaroo Express, etc. I.P. >> "I.P. Freely" succinctly suggested when >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I.P. Until about 2 years ago, they would ONLY issue script renewals without an appointment. They wont even do that now. If you are very seriously badly off as in "will die without medical intervention soon" then they will call you. Otherwise you are on your own if you don't ever remember to make an appointment. You could have a problem that would be terminal in 2 years if not treated but not presently terminal and still not be told. An example for you - my father was diagnosed with asbestosis in 1978. He had to wait until he made an appointment to see the doc to be told though when he got there, he was told he had 4 years to live. Lovely way to treat people, eh? Actually, I said the results were due then but I wasn't able to go back till next week. I work for myself and normally you can pick a day to go. Not this week, though! I am not panicking about it but to be honest, going for the PSA at all really is what anyone who knows me locally would call panic for me. I have many health problems but am well known for not really giving a sh.t about it all most of the time which, ironically, turns out to be better for the heart problem than remembering I actually have one. :) ========> good attitude to have (the give a sh.t) especially with the heart problem. hope your psa is one that doesn't give you a heart attack........... ;) but seriously, as been mentioned, you should be able to find someone in that office who will at least give you the psa number over the phone. ~ curtis knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc > Actually, I said the results were due then but I wasn't able to go back > till next week. I work for myself and normally you can pick a day to go. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > but seriously, as been mentioned, you should be able to find someone in > that office who will at least give you the psa number over the phone. Definitely not. Doctors don't work that way, here. You pay or you don't get told unless critical. "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> > Definitely not. Doctors don't work that way, here. You pay or you don't > get told unless critical. But I thought ... never mind. Just pay attention, Americans, when we have that choice to make. Like it or not, it matters to us here in this forum. I.P. I'm looking forward to the day when Dr. Mujibar in New Delhi sits at his end of the da Vinci while the other end is slicing the insides of some poor slob in Atlanta. Dave Perry > "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Just pay attention, Americans, when we have that choice to make. > Like it or not, it matters to us here in this forum. Rest assured, it doesn't work that way here in Canada either. If it is a minor thing, such as renewal of prescriptions, you have to go to the doctor's office. Our family doctor phoned me at 9:30 PM to let us know it came in high one time......15 months ago. And just 2 days ago, our oncologist at Sunnybrook Hospital phoned us to give us the PSA and Testerone results. Both undetectible!! Ron has now gone off the Zoladex and Casodex. Shot was due Feb. 4th and stopped the Casodex Dec. 20th. The side effects of the loss of T and the HT were more than he could handle. Zero energy. Dr. Loblaw told me when he called that Ron was on the *low end* of normal for them. i.e. he was in worse shape than most of his patients. It made sense to come off for as long as he can. They have had excellent results with intermittent therapy. Cheers from an icy Toronto....Heather. > "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Just pay attention, Americans, when we have that choice to make. > Like it or not, it matters to us here in this forum. Not sure what you mean there but I don't live in America. >> "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >>> Definitely not. Doctors don't work that way, here. You pay or you don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Not sure what you mean there but I don't live in America. One of our two U.S. political parties has sworn to convert our health care system to a socialist system when they next gain sufficient power, and in its threatened form it could be extremely oppressive. I'm just asking voters here to pay close attention to all that implies, as implicated piecemeal in this forum. It could happen in time to affect many of us, and certainly our children. I.P. >>> "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >>>> Definitely not. Doctors don't work that way, here. You pay or you don't [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I.P. Not sure that I would want to face the HMO trials you have over there. At least if I am living out of a gutter and need expensive medical treatment to continue living, I can get it here - that doesn't take into account possible breaking of the law of course. However, our waiting rooms are getting fairly bad. Many years ago I was coughing non-stop and hadn't had a wink of sleep in 48 hours because of it. I went to my GP who sent me immediately to the outpatients at hospital where I was seen to within an hour and waited 5 more hours after they told me that I had one lung full and the other almost full because of pneumonia. That, I take it is serious. Then, they got me a bed. While there, I noted there were no heart attacks or other life threatening emergencies coming in so I had to wonder why it took that long to get a bed. The answer was simple - they didn't have the ward staff to make the bed. I kid you not. I could have gone down there and done it myself but of course that is against the law. ....and yet we have had massive budget surpluses for years on end so they tell us. I keep wondering how that can be when we cant get staff for hospitals and they are taking money away from elderly and sick here and then I remember they ARE giving that money to sports people and people who want to have babies. Oh and our Fed Govt is so far right that they have been branded JUST this side of fascist by more than ONE political commenter. > Not sure that I would want to face the HMO trials you have over there. At > least if I am living out of a gutter and need expensive medical treatment > to continue living, I can get it here - that doesn't take into account > possible breaking of the law of course. > > However, our waiting rooms are getting fairly bad. << Examples redacted >> Yup, same thing here in America. Laws require that all are treated regardless of their ability to pay (including prison inmates). And, the results are the same. ERs can't handle the people who don't or won't go to a GP. Nursing shortages to the extent that my SIL has lost hospital jobs numbering near one dozen and easily finds jobs in other hospitals. Medical costs going through the roof. And all blamed on lack of government funding. Steve Kramer wrote> all blamed on lack of government funding. Yup ... as though it were our government's responsibility to take care of us from cradle to grave. Freeways, police, an army. etc. I can see, but the government is the LEAST efficient and effective source I can imagine of most services. It's up to our generation to get that across to our children if we want our nation to continue getting better rather than sliding down its present slippery slope to overpriced mediocrity. Where's the incentive for any service -- medicine, technology, education, whatever -- to excel once it becomes part of a mandated, completely regulated bureaucracy? Would Walsh have had the incentive, funding, or time for his extensive personal research into identifying and sparing those all-important nerve bundles if his job was dependent on slicing and dicing at X bucks per whack? Do we want a gum'mint hack selected by a clerk cutting our sons' prostates out? The gum'mint part of my surgery -- the VA recovery ward after the U of WA Med School performed my surgery -- was a life-threatening horror movie. I.P. > Not sure that I would want to face the HMO trials you have over there. At > least if I am living out of a gutter and need expensive medical treatment to > continue living, I can get it here - that doesn't take into account possible > breaking of the law of course. Although many of our media and politicians claim otherwise for political reasons, no one -- not even the millions of illegal aliens, not even known illegal alien criminals -- goes without good medical care here, either. Even a death row mass murderer can get free procedures, such as sex change surgery, which I'd guess few HMOs would cover. As for the 40M uninsured citizens one of our political parties claims ... even if that number is correct, most of that is voluntary; our citizens are taught by our media and culture that bling bling -- fancy possessions -- are more important than little things like health insurance. But one proposed law I'd try to break in a heartbeat would be choosing a good surgeon to perform my hypothetical son's RP. I.P. >> "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Not sure what you mean there but I don't live in America. Nor U.K., if I rememeber correctly. >>> "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >>>> Definitely not. Doctors don't work that way, here. You pay or you don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Nor U.K., if I rememeber correctly. Isn't Sydney, AU still in the U.K.? The accent, man ... the accent. I.P. >>> "Slightly Unsure" from the U.K. wrote >> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nor U.K., if I rememeber correctly. Nope but our health system is fast becoming just like yours. It was a much better system 20 years ago. If it's your first in 7 years, then 4.0 was kinda, sorta the standard, but that is barely applicable to a 70 year old. If you're younger, it shoudl be less. But, if you have BPH, then you can expect more. What was it?  SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > Scared into going for PSA....not that I reckon they are worth it but did > it anyway..... a week ago. Results back today. Going to make an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any help. > If it's your first in 7 years, then 4.0 was kinda, sorta the standard, but > that is barely applicable to a 70 year old. If you're younger, it shoudl > be less. But, if you have BPH, then you can expect more. > > What was it? Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal for that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. I actually have other probs as well but they are unlikely to affect the prostate....at least I think they wouldn't affect it as none of the others is a "that area" problem if you discount my wife's incessant complaining about my farting after she feeds me onion or some other such fart food. The only way you can stop a wife whinging at times like that is to sit on her and let one go. That normally is all the warning they need that "I have an attitude and a loaded weapon". I like to stick around the dogs at those times. Sometimes she isn't sure who to kick outside. :) > Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal for > that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. ... For someone aged 50 without prostatitis, I thought 4 was high. With prostatitis, assuming that the prostatitis contributes to PSA, then maybe not. However this is all still controversial. Some doctors think men under 60 shouldn't have PSAs above 2.5 or so. Others think those doctors are just looking to do more RP operations and make more money from men who don't really have cancer, or don't have it bad enough to need treatment. > I actually have > other probs as well but they are unlikely to affect the prostate....at least [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > loaded weapon". I like to stick around the dogs at those times. Sometimes > she isn't sure who to kick outside. :) I'm going to quote I.P.'s comment in a different context here and say: He's J*O*K*I*N*G folks. I don't even want to think about what might be the case if you're not. :) Alan >> Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal for >> that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. ... [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I don't even want to think about what might be the case if you're not. > :) No, I am being serious, no kidding! I am one of life's 12 year olds no matter what age I am. I get chased through the house with a stick but she eventually ends up laughing which is the whole reason for being so unruly. If I was plain and boring, what use is that? My rules in life: What use are kids and dogs if you cant stir them a little? Just put your 12 year old girl/boy outside with the dogs when it is time for them to do their business and tell the kid to watch what the dog and do what it does because we ran out of toilet paper. That is usually good for a "Funniest Home Videos" entry. When the kid complains just answer "Don't worry. The dog doesn't REALLY mind. Just remember to look where it's nose is when you are squatting!" You find lots of chuckles that way. Unfortunately, every kid I have come in contact with inherits my twisted sense of humour. Eg, 15 year old serious girl says to me, when I stub a toe and yell out "sh.t!" in response: "What would GOD think of this scene?" and was all serious, hands on hips, big disgusted looking frown on her face. I replied "I imagine he's falling around laughing his arse off right now.... after all HE did it to me!" Aghast, she asks how I can POSSIBLY say that and I ask her "Do you believe God made all things" and she answers yes and so I reply "Then he made this happen, too" and I look up at the sky and yell "VERY FUNNY, FART FACE!" and she runs off screaming apologies on my behalf. :) I tell you, kids are good for an afternoon of fun! With a little thought, you can have the stir go on longer, too. My niece was always enamoured by me and about 11 years old. Her 8 year old brother was a real little brat and would always throw tantrums and I got a little annoyed about that and decided to do something about it so I said to her "Come and see your brother with me and whatever I say, agree with me" when he was in the middle of a really BAD tantrum. I said to him "You know you will turn into a girl if you keep up your tantrums, don't you?" and he replies, in a tantrum laden tone "NO! YOU CANT!" so I said "Your sister was a boy once and had one too many tantrums and turned into a girl" and then I turned to her and said "Didn't you?" and she agreed. For 2 weeks after that, every time he went to have a tantrum, he would stop suddenly and suck it all in. His idiot mother eventually could stand it no longer and asked him why he did that so he told her what I had said and she burst the bubble. So what did he do? Go back to his tantrums of course but AHHH for 2 weeks, such quiet and SUCH a good laugh! Everything's funny if you let it be. I even get a laugh at the people behind me wanting to speed while I do the speed limit. I don't have an ulcer BTW. :) When they start to mouth off and gesticulate I put different words to their mouths. My favourite is "I am OSAMA BIN LADEN and I am GAY you FOOL!" Just look for the funny side. Oh and if you want to get out of getting your brains beat in when you have a near-incident in traffic, when the person is screaming and so on at you, turn slowly to look at them running your finger over your lips making the "crazy" sound. Apparently it is hilarious when they cant hear you. Everyone I have done that to has driven off laughing. Apparently you cant beat an idiot up! :) I keep trying to think of a good comeback to all this, but I confess to being speechless. Alan Dear Slightly, I too had chronic bacterial prostatitis for 10-13 years, until I found Dr. who was willing to do an 'experiment'. This experiment was 8 weeks of Augmentin antibiotic 2x/day (but I don't remember the dosage, probably 500-750/800 mg per tablet - They were *large* pills). Previously, Dr.'s had done a 10-14 day regime of antibiotics, that had done nothing to improve my infection. After this first 8 week regime, my infections (as indicated by my constant low grade fever and level of prostate pain) dropped 40%-50%. I was elated that (although the fever and prostate pain were not gone) it was *significantly* better. Went back to the Dr. and almost immediately started another 8 weeks of Augmentin. Fever and pain dropped another 40%-30%. Again, I was further elated. Went back to see the Dr, and reported again the results. Did a third 8 week regime. Constant low grade fever and pain was essentially gone after this third cycle. For flare ups over the subsequent years, a week or two of Augmentin knocked it out. After over a decade of not feeling well, I felt that I had gotten my life back. For what ever reason, my body responds *very* well to this antibiotic. And it took *months* before it was under control/gone. None of the newer 'designer' drugs (Levaquin, Cipro, et al.) seem to work for me, despite the insistence of multiple urologists over the years who insist they know which drugs are the best for every person. This was *my* experience. YMMV. HTH. KenA ==== >> If it's your first in 7 years, then 4.0 was kinda, sorta the standard, but that is >> barely applicable to a 70 year old. If you're younger, it shoudl be less. But, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > attitude and a loaded weapon". I like to stick around the dogs at those times. > Sometimes she isn't sure who to kick outside. :) >> If it's your first in 7 years, then 4.0 was kinda, sorta the standard, >> but that is barely applicable to a 70 year old. If you're younger, it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal for > that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. On February 17, Steve Kramer responded to the Uncertain One, in pertinent part: > Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic > prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. > Chronic prostitutes might "possible" raise other things, too. Hee hee. Regards, Steve J "When I play with my cat, who knows whether she isn't amusing herself with me more than I am with her?" --Montaigne >> Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal >> for >> that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. > > Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic > prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. Hmmm, Freudian Slip?? >>> Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal for >>> >> that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hmmm, Freudian Slip?? No, I'm on Lupron. But, I'm concerned my computer isn't getting enough cybersex. >>> Wont find out until next week. I am over 50. So it seems 4 is normal for >>> >> that? I have chronic never goes away bacterial prostatitis. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hmmm, Freudian Slip?? I actually DID hear he wore womens' clothing, too! :) > Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic > prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. I'm going to have to pay more attention to what my spellchecker is thinking. That's the problem with spellcheckers...they don't know what you're thinking. SignatureJerryW Please respond to group; email address is not valid 2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/18/05 PSA <0.1 4/26/05 PSA <0.1 10/13/05 PSA <0.1 >> Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic >> prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. > > I'm going to have to pay more attention to what my spellchecker is > thinking. > That's the problem with spellcheckers...they don't know what you're > thinking. Tell that to Bush's speech writer error checkers! :) >> Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic >> prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. > > I'm going to have to pay more attention to what my spellchecker is > thinking. Well, we are supposed to abstain from sex for 48 hours before a test, so I guess a warning against chronic use of hookers does make sense. Maybe after all this time, study and spreasheets, Steve, you now have a PCa-aware PC. Alex >>> If it's your first in 7 years, then 4.0 was kinda, sorta the standard, >>> but that is barely applicable to a 70 year old. If you're younger, it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Then a PSA in excess of 4.0 would be less than alarming. Chronic > prostitutes would possible raise your PSA. Chronic prostitutes would raise my credit card debt! :) |
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