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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2006

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prostate bony metastasis

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gioia - 10 Jan 2006 15:02 GMT
My 77  year father when he first time was diagnosed (PSA was 500) of
prostate cancer went immediatelly to orchiectomy and after that hormonal
therapy which was working for about one year (maybe less). After that he
stopped to take hormonal pills because tha PSA ant that time was 160, what
means that cancer became hormonally refractory. After that he made an
scintigrafy scan which shows metastasis to bones (multiply osteolytic
focuses on bones) - only his legs were "clean". Doctor put him on
intravenous biophosphonate therapy with Chlodronate (Bonefos) for 4 days and
promise him that this will stop the illnes because my father asked him
directly how many life he can expect.  They give him estracyt pills and
bonefos tablets and send him home.I do not think that my father  will be OK
after this, because he is in pain and he manage this pain with some
antirheumatyc suppositories. For now this works, and he is able to walk a
little bit, but without this he can not because of pain in the hips. Is
there any help (alternative medicine etc.)
Please - I like to hear some direct and truelly answer - what we can expect
in this stage (so we can prepare and help him)  and how long will my father
live,  because nobody would give us an straight answer. Will he die in big
pain, because of this bone metastasis? He believes that the doctors will
stop this and that he can win in this battle.  Thank you. We are from
Croatia.
Alan Meyer - 10 Jan 2006 16:06 GMT
> My 77  year father when he first time was diagnosed (PSA was 500) of
> prostate cancer went immediatelly to orchiectomy and after that hormonal
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> stop this and that he can win in this battle.  Thank you. We are from
> Croatia.

I am not a doctor and my opinion is purely based on a layman's
reading of material available on the web.  Your father's doctors
know much more than I do.  However, since they have not been
giving you information, I will try to offer some thoughts about
what is happening to your father.

It looks like your father will die of prostate cancer.  How long
it takes varies from person to person.  An article about survival
of men in stage D3 (hormone refractory with distant metastases)
can be found at:

http://www.asco.org/ac/1,1003,_12-002636-00_18-0010-00_19-00732,00.asp

I'm not sure how to interpret the numbers presented in that
article, but they appear to indicate survival times of less than
6 months, up to about 2.5 years, depending on the patient.

If the treatment your father received was bisphosphonate
pamidronate, I don't think that will help him live longer.  It
may however help reduce his bone pain.  There are chemotherapy
agents that help some men live longer, but not much longer.  The
effects are usually just a few months, and not all men benefit
from them.  The chemotherapy agents often have painful side
effects.

Unfortunately, the cancer will become extremely painful.  It may
progress from having some movements being painful, to all
movements being painful, and finally to continuous pain even
when the patient is not moving.

There are treatments that can help with the pain.  Sometimes
doctors will radiate the area where pain is high.  That can
sometimes reduce the pain in that area.  Another option is to
use pain killing drugs such as opiates, oxycontin, and others.
If you can find a doctor who is skilled in pain management, he
can help your father live the rest of his life much more happily.
Some doctors are very skilled at fighting pain and they can make
a big difference in your father's life.

Your father's doctor knows much more about his condition than I
do and can give you more information if he is willing to talk
about it.  Many doctors think they are being merciful by not
telling patients or their families what will happen to them.  I
suggest that you explain to the doctor that knowing the truth
will enable you to plan your father's care more effectively and
make him more comfortable.  Tell him that you have read
information indicating that your father does not have long to
live and that he will experience great pain.  Tell him that you
understand that and will be easier for you and your family if
they can hear expert information about his real condition.  Maybe
you can get the doctor to tell you everything he knows.

I am sorry that this is happening.  I hope that you and your
family will be able to have good times with your father in the
time remaining to him.  Maybe you can get him to talk about his
life, his parents and grandparents, and other things that nobody
knows but him.  Maybe you can write these down for the family, or
record them on audio or video tape.

My best wishes to your father, to you, and to the rest of your
family.

   Alan
J - 10 Jan 2006 22:04 GMT
> My 77  year father when he first time was diagnosed (PSA was 500) of
> prostate cancer went immediatelly to orchiectomy and after that hormonal
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> stop this and that he can win in this battle.  Thank you. We are from
> Croatia.

Hello,
I'm sorry to hear about your father.
Nothing "alternative" will help him. Your father needs to be seen by a radiation
oncologist.
To have radiation therapy to the areas that hurt the most, on an "as required"
basis.
As well, his pain needs to be managed with pain medications and/or patches, as
required.
I'm sorry he's in denial; acceptance is so important so he can get on with
quality of life issues and making plans for his end of life care, his funeral
arrangements and for any family he will be leaving behind. All of you need good
support resources, during this difficult time.

Sometimes advanced cancers can spread to the brain or the cancer progressing can
affect the brain and cause physical (arm, leg, eye, phycological, mood) or
neurological defects, where the brain does not work properly. Again, this
requires expert monitoring and management.

We have several medics on alt.support.cancer so if you have specific questions,
as things progress, come on over and ask.
Meantime, please look into the radiation therapy and pain menagement with his
doctor.
J
Steve Kramer - 10 Jan 2006 23:31 GMT
Gioia,

I am terribly sorry to hear about your father.  I am not familiar with the
names of the medications that your father has received, but in the United
States, he would probably be treated with chemotherapy and given serious
pain medication to take home with him.

Once prostate cancer gets out of the prostate, there is no cure.  Hormone
treatment may stave off the cancer for awhile, usually two or more years,
sometimes many more years.  However, once he went refractive, his only
choice was toxic chemicals that go as far as it can to kill cancer without
killing the patient.  But, again, it is a temporary fix.

Now for the dreaded truth:  With mets on his bones, he will be in serious
pain and, later, tremendous pain.  The only way to prevent the pain will be
to provide him pain medication that will alleviate the pain and make him
sleep most of the time.  Soon, the cancer will go to organs, usually the
liver first, sometimes lungs, and brain.  But, it is the bone pain, as I
understand it, that is most of what he will feel.

I know what you are going through.  My father died this way when he was 50
years old.  Feel free to continue to discuss this with us as the disease
progresses.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> My 77  year father when he first time was diagnosed (PSA was 500) of
> prostate cancer went immediatelly to orchiectomy and after that hormonal
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> doctors will stop this and that he can win in this battle.  Thank you. We
> are from Croatia.
gioia - 11 Jan 2006 09:56 GMT
Thank you.
> Gioia,
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>> doctors will stop this and that he can win in this battle.  Thank you. We
>> are from Croatia.
Pops - 11 Jan 2006 13:30 GMT
Gloia,

In all probability your father will die of prostate cancer. Death from
prostate cancer CAN be extremely painful BUT, it doesn't have to be!
Pain meds are available and, given in sufficient dosage, any pain can
be managed.

There is an issue from the "ethical" viewpoint. "Overdosage" of the
most effective pain meds can, and most likely will, accelerate the
death process. Some medical professionals may shy from such dosages
because they consider their job is to extend life as much as possible.
My point is that there should be no such thing as an "overdosage" when
managing pain in the death process . There is no reason that a patient
who has to face certain death needs to experience ANY pain. Get the
right Doctor, one who will assure pain relief for your father no matter
what. Then gather as a family and together understand death for what it
is, just another step, one we all will eventually take and one that can
be full of love and promise.
juniper - 12 Jan 2006 04:10 GMT
I am sorry for your pain, Gioia.  My husband just receive a PCa
diagnosis tonight.  The first high PSA was 12/13.  We had a biopsy last
week; if your dad has a biopsy, *insist* on real anasthesia.  The
"local" they put in the prostate is completely ineffective.  (The
doctor said, "It is not uncomfortable.  In fact, many men doze through
it."  This was a total lie.)

I am writing, however, because we have firsthand experience with the
pain question.  My husband's dad died of PCa that metastized to his
bones and, finally, his brain.  It was difficult to accept the doctors
suggestion of Hospice, but once we did, it was the most excellent
expierence one can imagine.  Hospice is an end-of-life service that is
wonderful.  Nurses come regularly, the moment they see anything that is
needed, they call someone and it is taken care of.  When my
father-in-law's medication quit working, the nurse would call and tell
the doctor, "He needs morphine now", or whatever, and the doctors would
instantly prescribe it and it would be delivered that day.  I think
this works so well because it covers the doctors--they are not likely
to be accused of pushing meds since the Hospice nurse who is in the
home all the time certifies that they are necessary.  Here is a link to
International Hospice organizations: http://www.hospicecare.com/yp/.
If there is not one in Croatia, I am pretty sure you can get ideas,
support and suggestions on how to get what your dad needs.  It is an
excellent organization by strong and caring people.

So as far as pain, my father in law did not suffer.  He seemed normal
enough, almost to the very end.  One time we were sitting at the
kitchen table, and he was telling us what it was like.  On the
morphine, he saw things.  He said, "Right now, I see a dog crossing the
room right there.  I know its not there, but I see it as clear as I see
you."

Again, I am sorry for your pain and fear, and I hope that Hospice can
help you with your father's needs.
juniper - 12 Jan 2006 04:28 GMT
Another thing.  My father-in-law was diagnosed in 1991 with a PSA of
565.  He also had hormone therapy.  He died in 1998.  It was only the
last few months or so that he began to fail badly.  He went into a coma
the last few days, and died in his sleep.  This does not mean your
father will have the same experience at all.  I am only telling you
what we experienced because you want real information.  It will be very
important to find out how to get him adequate pain medications.  You
may email me personally if you like.
 
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