Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2006
Report Casts Fresh Doubts on Prostate Cancer Testing (From NYT)
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Steve U - 10 Jan 2006 11:22 GMT January 10, 2006
By NICHOLAS BAKALAR Men who have been screened for prostate cancer by the most commonly used tests have no greater chance of surviving the disease than those who have not been screened at all, new research has found.
A report on the research, published yesterday in The Archives of Internal Medicine, found that neither a prostate specific antigen test, known as a P.S.A., nor a rectal examination worked to reduce deaths from prostate cancer.
The value of the screening has long been a matter of debate. A P.S.A. level can be abnormal even when a man does not have prostate cancer. But when an abnormal P.S.A. level is discovered, typically the next step is a biopsy.
Even a biopsy is inconclusive, however. The tissue samples from a negative screening, for example, may by chance have come from parts of the prostate that are free of cancerous cells.
Even if a cancer is found, an operation, which often causes erectile dysfunction and incontinence as side effects, may not be necessary since many cancers are so slow growing that they will never cause a problem.
Dr. John Concato, a researcher at the Veterans Affairs Connecticut Healthcare System and the lead author on the paper, stressed that a physician was obligated to clarify all the issues for patients.
"He should explain the benefits and risks, in the context of each patient's values," Dr. Concato said. "For example, some patients place such a high premium on avoiding incontinence and impotence that a positive P.S.A. test can be problematic."
The research involved nearly 72,000 men over 50 who received outpatient care at any of 10 Veterans Affairs hospitals in New England.
Of this group, the scientists identified 1,425 men with prostate cancer that was diagnosed from 1991 to 1995 and then studied the records of 501 patients who had died of the disease as of 1999.
For each case, the researchers randomly selected a living patient to be part of a control group.
Screening with P.S.A. had been performed for 70 of the men who died and for 65 men in the control group used for comparison.
If screening had been effective, a lower proportion of screened patients would have been found among the group of men who had died. But this was not the case.
An editorial accompanying the report states that 78 percent of male primary care physicians and 95 percent of urologists over 50 have themselves had at least one P.S.A. screening, so they apparently have decided that the test is useful.
"Many urologists and other physicians have received the P.S.A. test, perhaps because they don't consider the issue of screening to be uncertain," said Dr. Concato. "They believe the test works, but our results don't support that position."
Dr. Michael J. Barry, the author of the editorial and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard, said that a doctor's personal decision to have the test or to decline it need not affect his ability to inform a patient properly.
"Whatever the doctor's beliefs, he should still be capable of giving a patient enough objective information to arrive at an informed conclusion for himself," Dr. Barry said in an e-mail message.
"I think it's quite feasible to present the pros and cons of a medical intervention like a P.S.A. test and have the patient reach a different decision than the doctor would," he continued.
Dr. Barry said that at age 52, he had not had a P.S.A. test himself, but he added that he routinely presented the option to his patients. "After a discussion," he added, "many decide to go ahead and be tested."
The authors said their study was carefully controlled to eliminate bias and included a large population, increasing the validity of the results.
At the same time, they acknowledged that there are good studies with different findings, and that more research would be needed to settle the question of whether prostate cancer screening does more harm than good, or the reverse
Dennis D - 10 Jan 2006 13:55 GMT >January 10, 2006 > >By NICHOLAS BAKALAR >Men who have been screened for prostate cancer by the most commonly >used tests have no greater chance of surviving the disease than those >who have not been screened at all, new research has found.
>but he added that he routinely presented the option to his patients. >"After a discussion," he added, "many decide to go ahead and be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the question of whether prostate cancer screening does more harm than >good, or the reverse
> Blah, blah, blah With all respect to Mr. Bakalar, I think this study is a bunch of crap. These data are for diagnoses made more than 10 years ago. Maybe diagnostic procedures have improved since then. It doesn't, for example, report the average number of needle samples taken at biopsy. Maybe more samples are taken today on average.
The study follows men diagnosed over a 4 year span, then looks at those who died an average of 5 years later. Men who died 5 years (on average) after diagnosis probably had a very aggressive PCa. Their chances of succumbing are greater even if a PSA test detected their PCa at a relatively early stage.
In my own case, I did not have any PSA tests done until age 59. A premonition sent me to my doctor for a PSA test. It came back 7. Biopsy showed PCa. RRP was performed 2003. Today, based on pathology findings, I face a moderately high risk of recurrence (now 2.5 years after surgery) because of less than ideal pathology findings (one + margin, GS = 7 (4 + 3) ). I have a better than 50/50 chance of survival now, but if I had waited until a prostate lump showed up on a DRE (I did indeed get regular DRE's since age 40), I would now have less than a 50/50 chance of survival... Yeah, like I said... a bunch of crap!!! The report even acknowledges that other studies show different results.
That being said, I think we have to acknowledge that PSA screening is still not a perfect saviour. I might be in error here, but here's may take (check me out on this):
Start with 100 men with PCa, all asymtomatic with negative DRE's. 5 will have a non-adenosarcoma which doesn't show up on PSA testing. 15 will have adenosarcoma which for some reason gives a negative PSA test result. The 80 remaining men will show a positve PSA test. 20 will have capsular penetration (my figure here is a guestimate and may be off). But 10 of these will be cured by radiation. This leaves 60 men who then get treated by conventional therapy (surgery, radiation, etc.). Of these 60 men, 10 will have nonlocal (noncurable) recurrence. This leaves 50 who are (or will be) cured. So estimated cure rate through PSA screening is 50/100 or 50%... not great !
Dennis
Dennis D - 10 Jan 2006 14:07 GMT >20 will have capsular penetration (my figure here is a guestimate and may be >off). But 10 of these will be cured by radiation. I made an error in my math... I forgot to include the 10 men with capsular penetartion cured by radiation... Revising my figures, . . 50 + 10 = 60 out of 100 men cured or 60% cure rate for PSA screening
Dennis
Gogarty - 10 Jan 2006 14:53 GMT I don't care what the studies say. If the PSA leads to a positive biopsy you have cancer. So far as I know, while there are plenty of false negatives there are no false positives. If you have cancer, you get rid of it. Period. You don't sit around waiting to find out if it is aggressive or not. It just makes no sense to me that early detection and treatmnent makes no difference. No sense at all.
I have in the past accused people of being so wedded to whatever course they chose as to be proselityzing and blind to any course but the one they chose, perhaps because they can't admit they just might have chosen the wrong course. But that is not so here. If the biopsy prompted by suspicious PSA levels shows cancer, get treatment, whichever course you choose.
ron - 10 Jan 2006 15:46 GMT Gogarty wrote...snip...
> I don't care what the studies say. Telling remark.
> If the PSA leads to a positive biopsy you > have cancer. So far as I know, while there are plenty of false negatives there > are no false positives. Is your false positive / negative remark related to PSA or biopsy? There are false positives and negatives for PSA testing.
> If you have cancer, you get rid of it. Period. You > don't sit around waiting to find out if it is aggressive or not. There's no "one size fits all" for PCa. Sometimes it may make sense to watch and wait, e.g., if you are over 70 and diagnosed with insignificant disease. There is a lot of overdiagnosis today; estimates put the number between 20-50%. It would seem that a significant number of younger men are undergoing treatment when they really have indolent disease. Of course, the problem is we don't have the tools today to distinguish between indolent disease and disease that requires treatment.
> It just makes > no sense to me that early detection and treatmnent makes no difference. No > sense at all. I'm not sure treatment is included in their analysis..Ron
> I have in the past accused people of being so wedded to whatever course they > chose as to be proselityzing and blind to any course but the one they chose, > perhaps because they can't admit they just might have chosen the wrong course. > But that is not so here. If the biopsy prompted by suspicious PSA levels shows > cancer, get treatment, whichever course you choose. Gogarty - 11 Jan 2006 13:48 GMT Of course, the problem is we don't have
>the tools today to distinguish between indolent disease and disease >that requires treatment. Exactly.
My reference to false negative/positive was to the biopsy, not the PSA test. The PSA test yields a number that is a probability.
Alex - 10 Jan 2006 20:09 GMT >I don't care what the studies say. If the PSA leads to a positive biopsy >you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > shows > cancer, get treatment, whichever course you choose. Many in this newsgroup believe that, "If you have cancer, you get rid of it. Period." The problem is, a close reading of the information available to us indicates that there is no CERTAIN way to "get rid of it," much less any guarantee that getting rid of it is indeed the best course of action.
Every treatment option offered to us has a significant failure rate: a percentage of surgeries of apparently in-capsule cancers nonetheless are followed by mets, and the same holds true for radiation. Yet, whether successful or not, each of these options carries a pricetag of serious lifelong side effects.
Doctors and patients in Europe seem much more comfortable at trying to treat prostate cancer as a chronic disease, trying to keep it in check when possible (that involves close monitoring to find the cases that don't respond as hoped) before going for an aggressive approach. They opt for a balancing of longevity and quality of life.
Diabetes is, like prostate cancer, a dangerous disease that can result in an early and painful death. Yet we don't have squadrons of doctors arguing that people diagnosed with diabetes should consider having their stomachs surgically reduced, or their taste buds cauterized with radiation, to prevent them from over-eating.
Alex
Leonard Evens - 11 Jan 2006 01:07 GMT > Many in this newsgroup believe that, "If you have cancer, you get rid of it. > Period." The problem is, a close reading of the information available to us > indicates that there is no CERTAIN way to "get rid of it," much less any > guarantee that getting rid of it is indeed the best course of action. I think this is a gross oversimplfication of what the great majority of men in this news group have said about their cases. It is more accurate to say that most of us have concluded that, on balance, trying to get rid of the prostate cancer was a worthwhile goal. We were perfectly aware that such an effort might not be successful. We were also aware that treatment might have negative side effects.
> Every treatment option offered to us has a significant failure rate: a > percentage of surgeries of apparently in-capsule cancers nonetheless are > followed by mets, and the same holds true for radiation. Yet, whether > successful or not, each of these options carries a pricetag of serious > lifelong side effects. You are slidng into a logical error here. It is true that each treatment option has a failure rate. How signficant it is depends on many factors such as age, the stage of the tumor, etc. Many of us have explored the Partin Tables and various nomograms, and we are well aware of the uncertainties involved in treating prostate cancer. On the other hand, you appear to ignore the uncertainties involved in side effects. I don't know what you mean by "carries a pricetag", but it certainly seems to imply that everyone who is treated by one of the treatment methods is going to have serious lifelong side effects. That is just not true. Side effects also involve probabilities, and again they differ according to the details in each individual case. Many men, particularly younger men, come through treatment with no significant long term side effects. In other cases, there are significant side effects, but the men involved find they can live with them. And, of course, in some cases, the treatment is worse than the disease, or worst of all, no cure is obtained, but there are significant side effects.
The point is that there are uncertainties on both sides of the ledger, and each man has to make the decision for himself about how to balance the risks. A lot depends on the individual case. Just as it would be wrong to panic a man into seeking treatment which may not be effective, it is wrong to scare men away from possibly curative treatment by overplaying the risks of side effects.
Finally, remember King Kong waiting there is the aisles. Prostate cancer may have serious consequences if untreated, and one must weigh the likelihood of that, again in the individual case, when making a decision.
> Doctors and patients in Europe seem much more comfortable at trying to treat > prostate cancer as a chronic disease, trying to keep it in check when > possible (that involves close monitoring to find the cases that don't > respond as hoped) before going for an aggressive approach. They opt for a > balancing of longevity and quality of life. So do doctors in the US. The differences are about what they think about the prospects for cure. But doctors in the US treat most cases of prostate cancer in older men less aggressively, usually employing watchful waiting followed by hormone therapy if needed. The difference of opinion is about younger men.
You should look at the standard guidelines for treatment of prostate cancer promulgated for urologists in the US.
> Diabetes is, like prostate cancer, a dangerous disease that can result in an > early and painful death. Yet we don't have squadrons of doctors arguing that > people diagnosed with diabetes should consider having their stomachs > surgically reduced, or their taste buds cauterized with radiation, to > prevent them from over-eating. That is an entirely false analogy. There is an implicit assumption here that prostate cancer can be controlled indefinitely by medical treatment in most cases. That is true for diabetes, but it is absolutely false for prostate cancer. It is true that some prostate cancers which are diagnosed today will never bother the patient, either because they are innocuous or because the patient won't live long enough. Those cancers should be treated, where possible by watchful waiting, and by and large they are. But many prostate cancers will progress if the patient lives long enough. At that point the only treatment is hormone therapy, which is pretty much guaranteed to have undesirable side effects, and which almost always will eventually fail, again if the patient lives long enough.
The big error in such discussions is to try to draw hard fast lines. Prostate cancer is a complex disease. To decide never to treat it aggressively is wrong and to decide always to treat it aggressively is wrong.
> Alex Alex - 11 Jan 2006 01:57 GMT [ snip]
> The big error in such discussions is to try to draw hard fast lines. > Prostate cancer is a complex disease. To decide never to treat it > aggressively is wrong and to decide always to treat it aggressively is > wrong. Leonard said, succinctly, what I was trying to say in many more words. I do think, however, that many American doctors (and therefore their patients) tend toward an aggressive approach. Still, I am more than willing to find that I am wrong.
Alex
ron - 10 Jan 2006 15:35 GMT Do I understand correctly that this study compares the effect of screening vs. no screening on mortality? If so, clearly the comparison of interest would be between [screening + treatment] vs. no screening...Best wishes and good health, Ron
Alan Meyer - 10 Jan 2006 19:09 GMT > Men who have been screened for prostate cancer by the most commonly > used tests have no greater chance of surviving the disease than those > who have not been screened at all, new research has found. > ... The question I always have about these studies is, do they show that screening is ineffective, or that treatment is ineffective?
If the study is really accurate, it seems that the only possible conclusion is that treatment is ineffective. If PSA screening leads to earlier treatment, but not to reduced death rates, then either men who are found to have cancer are not getting suitable treatment, or else the treatment isn't working.
I suppose it's possible that the treatments don't work. It's possible, for example, that PCa micrometastases appear in the body even before the PSA begins to rise, and that removal or radiation of the prostate doesn't prevent these from growing and killing us. If so, then whether we die or not is just a question of our individual body chemistry and the doctors can't do a thing about it. We and our doctors would all be fooling ourselves.
But in fact death rates from many cancers, including PCa, have gone down in the U.S.
I wish the authors of studies like this would address these questions directly.
Alan
Leonard Evens - 11 Jan 2006 00:37 GMT >>Men who have been screened for prostate cancer by the most commonly >>used tests have no greater chance of surviving the disease than those [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > of our individual body chemistry and the doctors can't do a thing > about it. We and our doctors would all be fooling ourselves. Much of what you say makes sense, but keep in mind that nothing anyone says about all prostate cancer cases is going to be true. We know that a lot depends on factors like age, Gleason score, PSA level at diagnosis, etc. Age alone is a tremendously important factor. A very large number of prostate cancer diagnoses are in men old enough that agressive treatment doesn't make sense. Those cases can so overwhelm the data from younger men that any conclusions relevant to them is lost in the noise.
> But in fact death rates from many cancers, including PCa, have > gone down in the U.S. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Alan I.P. Freely - 12 Jan 2006 18:38 GMT > I suppose it's possible that the treatments don't work. It's > possible, for example, that PCa micrometastases appear in the > body even before the PSA begins to rise, and that removal or > radiation of the prostate doesn't prevent these from growing and > killing us. While treatment decisions BEFORE tx should favor statistics and priorities over anecdotal "evidence", POST-TX outcomes are highly individual/ anecdotal/ personal. My RP dropped my PSA from 8.7 and rising fast to "zero" and stable for a year. The RP cost me a week of time, two weeks in a catheter, and funny underwear for a year or so. FOR ME, even if I die from PC 10-15 years from now, my tx "worked" pretty well in that it probably gave me a few extra robust years. I'd say my tx worked, even though every source expects my PC to return. I don't expect to live forever, so anything that adds more to my life than it takes away from it "works". Ergo the gym, ergo RP (in my case). OTOH, txs which will take away more than they give are not high on my personal list of choices.
I.P.
Leonard Evens - 10 Jan 2006 19:44 GMT > January 10, 2006 I haven't been able to find the paper at Northwestern, via the web. the last issue I could find was in December. Perhaps it hasn't been posted yet.
It is rather difficult to evaluate such a study. The most obvious question is how many of the men who had died of prostate cancer had also been treated and by which mechanism. Another question would be the ages of the patients and the men in the control group. Another question would be the time horizon of the study.
What they apparently showed, according to the quoted report, is that men who died of prostate cancer were not less likely to have been screened (within some time period) than men in a control group of healthy men. This is not the same question as asking if men in various age groups are less likely to die of prostate cancer if they are screened. I would have to think about just how these two questions might be related, but there could be some subtle statistical issues which enter into the analysis.
Thus, I am ready to believe that for some men 70 or older, PSA testing by itself does little to reduce prostate cancer mortality. I would be very surprised to find that the same was true for men under 60.
> By NICHOLAS BAKALAR > Men who have been screened for prostate cancer by the most commonly [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > the question of whether prostate cancer screening does more harm than > good, or the reverse I.P. Freely - 12 Jan 2006 18:16 GMT NICHOLAS BAKALAR wrote
> some patients place such a high premium on avoiding incontinence ... > that a positive P.S.A. test can be problematic." Yup. And it's the doctor's responsibility to educate those patients in just what [RP] incontinence involves. Funny underwear, and probably only for months. Big deal, all things considered.
I.P.
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