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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2006

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Radiation Treatment

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Jamie - 29 Dec 2005 17:14 GMT
I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
cancer was caught early.  I have been given multiple treatment options.
I am leaning towards the beam radiation (Ithink that is what it is
called).  Primarily because I do not want to undertake the risk of
surgery and even with the seeds I would have general anesthesia.  ALso
because I have been told that the beam radiation is the only form of
treatment that also treats the lymphnodes.  The risk of incontinence
associated with surgery also scares the hell out of me.

Are there other risk that I should be considering?  I am assuming that
this form of treatment is not as popular as the seeds simply because it
involves 8 1/2 weeks of treatment.  But I would be most grateful if
someone could tell me of other concerns with the beam treatmen tthat I
should be considering.

Thank you for your time !

Jamie
John Loomis - 29 Dec 2005 17:20 GMT
Hello Jamie,
   I am sorry for your diagnosis, and yet it is good to know about this
early on, than find out later when cancer has spread.
I was 49 when dx'd in a small town.  The Dr. did the biopsy, DRE, etc.  He
wanted me to have External Beam Radiation.
I was all set to go, got a hormone shot, (Lupron) all while I was studying
this disease, and asking questions.
   I decided to go to a "Prostate Cancer Specialist" in the "Big City"  I
went to 2 with all my lab work and bone scan, and questions.
   I was happy I did, and finally ended up with a specialist Dr. James D.
Brooks, Stanford Medical University.
I am 6 years past now.  I had RP in Nov. 1999.
I did not have trouble with wetting myself, and erectile function took about
2 years to recover "fully"
   I would set up an appointment with a prostate cancer specialist near
you. I would see one or more.  Also make sure to line up all your lab work
so these Dr.s can review them.
Do not be afraid of intimidating the Dr. who did the original dx.
Some Urologist do many aspects of Urology.  Some are specific in dealing
with Prostate Cancer.
Any questions, please ask, and do know you are on the right track!
John Loomis

I sent this letter to an earlier message /reply
I would get more opinions..Do not be afraid of surgery at age 50.
Best suited for younger men.....
Good wishes.

>I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jamie
jhhtexas@ieee.org - 29 Dec 2005 17:52 GMT
You need to do a lot of research and go to a Pca  "Center of
Excellence" where you can talk to both radiation oncologists and
urologists about the various treatment options. I opted for an RRP at
Clarke Urology Center at UCLA and have fully recovered my sex life
after 1 1/2 years. As I understand it, radiation will degrade your
erectile function such that after 2 years you may be worse off sexually
than you would with an RRP. Another advantage of an RRP is a complete
pathology report on your prostate and surrounding lymph nodes so you
know better where you stand.
Steve Jordan - 29 Dec 2005 17:56 GMT
> I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> associated with surgery also scares the hell out of me.
>  
Jamie has a lot of work to do to prepare to make a decision.

A great deal of important information was omitted from the above
paragraph: general health, whether a biopsy has been performed and its
result in terms of Gleason score (expressed as, for example, x+y=z),
clinical stage (expressed as, for example, T2b or some such). Any other
staging tests?

Has Jamie consulted an oncologist?

An excellent place to begin the educational effort that is required so
that an informed decision can be made is the website of the Prostate
Cancer Research Institute at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
> Are there other risk that I should be considering?  I am assuming that
> this form of treatment is not as popular as the seeds simply because it
> involves 8 1/2 weeks of treatment.  But I would be most grateful if
> someone could tell me of other concerns with the beam treatmen tthat I
> should be considering.
>  
It appears that Jamie is referring to external beam radiation treatment
(EBRT), a generic term for any radiation treatment (tx) that is applied
from outside the body. There are several types: 3DCRT (three-dimensional
conformal radiation therapy, which is outdated but still sometimes
used), intensity-modulated radiation therapy (IMRT), the latest mode,
much more accurate than 3DCRT, and others such as proton beam.

I assume that the proposed tx is IMRT. This can be accompanied by
adjuvant androgen deprivation therapy (ADT), depending upon the risk
assessment of Jamie's case.

All txs have side effects (SEs), which may be treatable if necessary.
The usual SEs of IMRT are proctitis and temporary urinary and bowel
urgency. Erectile difficulties may develop -- or may not. There is no
certainty, however, that Jamie will experience any SE -- though he
probably will. The unanswerable question is what SEs and to what extent.
Each of us is different and will react to tx in his own unique manner.

If Jamie will go to the above website, which is objective and
authoritative, he will find answers to his questions by use of the
search function.

Another excellent source of information is the book, _A Primer on
Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide" by PCa
(prostate cancer) specialist and oncologist Stephen B. Strum, MD and
Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior. It can be ordered via the PCRI site or any
bookstore. It could be a life-saving investment.

Welcome to the club no one wants to join. Please keep us informed.

Regards,

Steve J

"We must tailor the treatment to the nature of the disease. We must
listen to the biology."
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
JK@work - 29 Dec 2005 18:05 GMT
> I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jamie

  Do alot more reading and research before you jump to any conclusions.  So
let me get this straight Jaime.... anethesia scares the hell out of you, but
getting your family jewels fried and radiated is OK? There's a reason that
EB is not high up on the list of primary choices for folks in your position.
Let's start with very possible painful and severe side effects for months
after treatment, and that once done you can't go back and have the surgery
if the job isn't done.  Keep in mind that the goal of any of the treatments
is to completely get rid of your entire prostate. That means that WHATEVER
you do, short of nothing, you won't ever be able to produce semen again. May
be incontinent for awhile, and  probably have some degree of erectile
dysfunction.  That said, why not choose an option that will give you the
best chance of being cancer free for the rest of your life? You sound like a
perfect candidate for RP surgery to me, but it's your choice. I had it 3
years ago, and am thrilled with the decision. My surgeon visually saw the
whole picture with his expert eyes, and as soon as I woke up and he gave me
the thumbs up, I knew the worst was over. Good luck!

Signature

"Don't be offended I'm just SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
http://www.sinrodstudios.com/
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Alan Meyer - 29 Dec 2005 19:57 GMT
> > I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> > present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
> > cancer was caught early.  I have been given multiple treatment options.
> >  I am leaning towards the beam radiation (Ithink that is what it is
> > called).  Primarily because I do not want to undertake the risk of
> > surgery and even with the seeds I would have general anesthesia.

I agree with JK that the risks of general anesthesia aren't too
high.  S**t happens but it's fairly rare.

> > ALso
> > because I have been told that the beam radiation is the only form of
> > treatment that also treats the lymphnodes.

If your cancer has spread outside the prostate, but not far outside,
I believe that radiation is more likely to be helpful.  But it may not
have spread.  Whether it has or not, and whether radiation is
advisable if spread is likely, are important questions to ask your
doctors.

There is apparently also a risk of incontinence with radiation but
it is very slight.  Although I've seen references to it in the
literature
I can't recall any radiation patient on this newsgroup mentioning
it.  Difficulty urinating is much, much more common though, for
most (but not all) of us, the problem went away within 3-6 months
after the end of radiation.

Rates of impotence are said to be comparable between surgery and
radiation.

> > Are there other risk that I should be considering?  I am assuming that
> > this form of treatment is not as popular as the seeds simply because it
> > involves 8 1/2 weeks of treatment.  But I would be most grateful if
> > someone could tell me of other concerns with the beam treatmen tthat I
> > should be considering.

I personally thought the risks of surgery were higher than radiation
and chose radiation in part for that reason.  A friend of mine almost
died after scar tissue created during his surgery migrated into his
lungs.  The idea of a guy wielding a knife in my innards scared me
more than the idea of xrays zapping them.

Long term risks of radiation however are not zero.  There are risks of
long term bladder or bowel irritation, long term impotence and,
according
to some researchers, a small but non-zero increased risk of secondary
cancers in bladder, bowel, or rectum.

Unfortunately, all of the treatments are potentially dangerous.  All of
them do considerable violence to the body.  It's important to find a
very good, very experienced doctor to apply whichever treatment
you choose.

>    Do alot more reading and research before you jump to any conclusions.  So
> let me get this straight Jaime.... anethesia scares the hell out of you, but
> getting your family jewels fried and radiated is OK?

If by "family jewels" you mean the testicles, they probably don't
get much radiation.  When I had external beam radiation the beam
was aimed perpendicularly to my body, with the radiation emitter
moving around in a circle.  I don't _think_ much radiation went
outside the treatment band (but hey, what do I know?)  The
testicles seemed to be just outside that band.

> There's a reason that
> EB is not high up on the list of primary choices for folks in your position.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> whole picture with his expert eyes, and as soon as I woke up and he gave me
> the thumbs up, I knew the worst was over. Good luck!

Jamie,

As you can see from this and other posts, there are a lot of
very strong opinions about the value of surgery vs. radiation.
I think there is some emotion centered around this issue since
a man feels that he is betting his life on his choice, and all of
us have a deep need to believe that we have made the right
choice.  It's very hard for most of us to hear someone say that
the other treatment option may be a better choice than the one
we chose.

My first thought after learning I had cancer and I had to choose
a treatment was that I would do research and choose the best
treatment - the one that science pointed to as best.  But it
turned out not to be as simple as that.

I came to the conclusion after my research that radiation and
surgery have similar outcomes when done well - with significant
but very different advantages for each one.  Choosing the particular
set of advantages that appeal to you seems to me as much
a personal as a scientific choice.

Study what you can, ask all the questions you can, talk to both
a radiation oncologist and a surgeon - the best ones you can
find.  Move quickly, but deliberately.  Don't waste time, but don't
jump to conclusions either.

Best of luck.

   Alan
Ed Friedman - 29 Dec 2005 18:51 GMT
> I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jamie

Jamie,

If you are looking for an alternative to surgery, you should consider
systemic treatment as detailed in:
http://www.prostateweb.com/pdfs/ASCO_PCF_02_2005.pdf

The downside of the treatment is that there is no chance of a "cure".
The upside of the treatment is that side effects are temporary and at
this point (patients having been treated for 5-14 years) the chance of
dying from prostate cancer are 0% (they list it as 0.6%, but the one
patient who died actually had ductile adenocarcinoma and not primary
adenocarcinoma of the prostate).

If you want to better understand the theory behind all of this, you
might want to read my article at:  http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/10

Ed Friedman
ron - 29 Dec 2005 21:04 GMT
Jamie...Here is a table from a study that compared the long-term QOL
effects between men selecting brachytherapy, external beam radiotherapy
and surgery as their primary treatment, along with age-matched controls
who do not have PCa.  This table compares the men at a median follow-up
of 6.2 years post-treatment.  The study was highly powered as it
involved 1,014 men (including controls) and was multi-institutional (J
Clin Oncol. 2005 Apr 20;23(12):2772-80; Long-Term Outcomes Among
Localized Prostate Cancer Survivors: Health-Related Quality-of-Life
Changes After Radical Prostatectomy, External Radiation, and
Brachytherapy; Miller DC, Sanda MG, Dunn RL, Montie JE, Pimentel H,
Sandler HM, McLaughlin WP, Wei JT.).

Age-adjusted, Long-term (median 6.3 years) EPIC Domain Summary Scores
HRQOL Domain          BT     3-D CRT     RP     Age-matched Control
Men
Urinary Irritative            81†*        84           91
    89
Urinary Incontinence    78†*        86†          80*
92
Sexual                        28*         35†*         39*
    63
Bowel                         86†*        84†*         94
      96†
Hormonal                    87*          89            91
  93
† Denotes significant change in HRQOL domain score from 2 to 6 years
of median f/u (p=0.05)
* Denotes significant difference in HRQOL domain score at 6 yrs of
median f/u vs. controls (p=0.05)

As others have pointed out, where an individual man will fall, in terms
of side effects, is impossible to predict, but this statistical
sampling will give you some idea of how things turn out on average.

As to other risks, younger men, such as yourself, are often discouraged
from XBRT for the following reasons:
1)  Secondary cancers resulting from the radiation are a known side
effect.  These secondary cancers are expected to reach maximum
incidence 10-20 years post-treatment.  Hence, younger men, who will
live longer, will have a greater probability of developing such
cancers.  One good study (Cancer
Volume 88, Issue 2 , Pages 398 - 406; Published Online: 20 Nov 2000;
Second malignancies in prostate carcinoma patients after radiotherapy
compared with surgery; David J. Brenner, D.Sc. 1 *, Rochelle E. Curtis,
M.A. 2, Eric J. Hall, D.Sc. 1, Elaine Ron, Ph.D. 2) put the rate at 10
years post-treatment at 1 in 70, again the number would be expected to
trend upwards over the next decade.  Another study (Gastroenterology;
2005 Apr;128(4):819-24; Increased risk of rectal cancer after prostate
radiation: A population-based study; Baxter NN, Tepper JE, Durham SB,
Rothenberger DA, Virnig BA.) put the odds ratio for rectal cancer at
1.7 when an RT group is compared to an RP group.  Some on this NG argue
that newer, more focused forms of RT, such as IMRT, are less likely to
give rise to secondary cancers.  The literature argues otherwise (Int J
Radiat Oncol Biol Phys. 2003 May 1;56(1):83-8; Radiation-induced second
cancers: the impact of 3D-CRT and IMRT; Hall EJ, Wuu CS), expecting
IMRT to roughly double the rate of secondary cancers.
2) In addition to secondary cancers in other body parts, the cancer can
reoccur in the prostate.  Generally speaking RT leaves more prostatic
tissue behind than surgery.  This is why men treated by XBRT usually
still have ejaculate.  Neglecting the possibility that cancerous cells
remain in this tissue, whatever genetic / environmental effects
produced prostate cancer in the first place, still have prostatic
tissue available in which to induce further mutations that could lead
to the redevelopment of new prostate cancer 10-20 plus years down the
road.  Again, something of more concern to younger men with more years
in front of them.

While the incidence of secondary cancers is relatively small (in an
absolute sense; they can be large when compared in a relative sense,
note the odds ratio in the rectal cancer reference) it is another
factor to be considered in making a treatment decision.  Hope this
information helps...Best wishes and good health, Ron
I.P. Freely - 29 Dec 2005 21:54 GMT
I always have a helluva time trying to plow though these erudite statistical
analyses (despite doing very well in several graduate courses in Bayesian
statistics), and this one's no exception. Makes me wonder how much the
average non-technical bear gets out of them. Maybe that explains why I don't
understand why this seems to imply that RT, beam or seeds, produces more
bowel SEs than RP does. I've always read the opposite, I thought, and my rad
onc advised me to have surgery rather than RT the minute I told her I'd
rather risk urinary incontinence than bowel incontinence.

Who the hell wouldn't?

Back to the topical question: Jamie., you need to do a GREAT deal more
reading before making this decision, maybe the biggest of your life. Study
several PC books, several of the websites recommended here, and the last
year's archives of this forum, then YOU tell US whether RP or RT or BT is
YOUR best choice, and tell us why. Only then will you be qualified to make
this decision, IMO. If you're not motivated to put that much work into it.
your next best choice is to consult for four oncologists at great length: a
surgical onc, a rad onc, a med onc, and then a fourth onc -- all prostate
experts -- for a reality check on the decision you reach after those first
three consultations. Now if THAT's too much work, put your decision in the
hands of whomever you like but realize that you will second-guess your
choice for the rest of your life unless you get REAL lucky and totally
forget you ever had cancer.

I.P.

Jamie...Here is a table from a study that compared the long-term QOL
effects between men selecting brachytherapy, external beam radiotherapy
and surgery as their primary treatment, along with age-matched controls
who do not have PCa.  This table compares the men at a median follow-up
of 6.2 years post-treatment.  The study was highly powered as it
involved 1,014 men (including controls) and was multi-institutional (J
Clin Oncol. 2005 Apr 20;23(12):2772-80; Long-Term Outcomes Among
Localized Prostate Cancer Survivors: Health-Related Quality-of-Life
Changes After Radical Prostatectomy, External Radiation, and
Brachytherapy; Miller DC, Sanda MG, Dunn RL, Montie JE, Pimentel H,
Sandler HM, McLaughlin WP, Wei JT.).

Age-adjusted, Long-term (median 6.3 years) EPIC Domain Summary Scores
HRQOL Domain          BT     3-D CRT     RP     Age-matched Control
Men
Urinary Irritative            81?*        84           91
    89
Urinary Incontinence    78?*        86?          80*
92
Sexual                        28*         35?*         39*
    63
Bowel                         86?*        84?*         94
      96?
Hormonal                    87*          89            91
  93
? Denotes significant change in HRQOL domain score from 2 to 6 years
of median f/u (p=0.05)
* Denotes significant difference in HRQOL domain score at 6 yrs of
median f/u vs. controls (p=0.05)

As others have pointed out, where an individual man will fall, in terms
of side effects, is impossible to predict, but this statistical
sampling will give you some idea of how things turn out on average.

As to other risks, younger men, such as yourself, are often discouraged
from XBRT for the following reasons:
1)  Secondary cancers resulting from the radiation are a known side
effect.  These secondary cancers are expected to reach maximum
incidence 10-20 years post-treatment.  Hence, younger men, who will
live longer, will have a greater probability of developing such
cancers.  One good study (Cancer
Volume 88, Issue 2 , Pages 398 - 406; Published Online: 20 Nov 2000;
Second malignancies in prostate carcinoma patients after radiotherapy
compared with surgery; David J. Brenner, D.Sc. 1 *, Rochelle E. Curtis,
M.A. 2, Eric J. Hall, D.Sc. 1, Elaine Ron, Ph.D. 2) put the rate at 10
years post-treatment at 1 in 70, again the number would be expected to
trend upwards over the next decade.  Another study (Gastroenterology;
2005 Apr;128(4):819-24; Increased risk of rectal cancer after prostate
radiation: A population-based study; Baxter NN, Tepper JE, Durham SB,
Rothenberger DA, Virnig BA.) put the odds ratio for rectal cancer at
1.7 when an RT group is compared to an RP group.  Some on this NG argue
that newer, more focused forms of RT, such as IMRT, are less likely to
give rise to secondary cancers.  The literature argues otherwise (Int J
Radiat Oncol Biol Phys. 2003 May 1;56(1):83-8; Radiation-induced second
cancers: the impact of 3D-CRT and IMRT; Hall EJ, Wuu CS), expecting
IMRT to roughly double the rate of secondary cancers.
2) In addition to secondary cancers in other body parts, the cancer can
reoccur in the prostate.  Generally speaking RT leaves more prostatic
tissue behind than surgery.  This is why men treated by XBRT usually
still have ejaculate.  Neglecting the possibility that cancerous cells
remain in this tissue, whatever genetic / environmental effects
produced prostate cancer in the first place, still have prostatic
tissue available in which to induce further mutations that could lead
to the redevelopment of new prostate cancer 10-20 plus years down the
road.  Again, something of more concern to younger men with more years
in front of them.

While the incidence of secondary cancers is relatively small (in an
absolute sense; they can be large when compared in a relative sense,
note the odds ratio in the rectal cancer reference) it is another
factor to be considered in making a treatment decision.  Hope this
information helps...Best wishes and good health, Ron
ron - 29 Dec 2005 22:10 GMT
I.P. Freely wrote...snip...
> Maybe that explains why I don't understand why this seems to imply that RT, beam or
> seeds, produces more bowel SEs than RP does.

The study does suggest that men choosing either RT treatment have more
bowel SEs than men choosing RP (86%, 84% of the RT men didn't have
bowel SEs vs. 94% of the RP men not having bowel SEs (higher numbers
mean better outcomes, look at the controls)

> I've always read the opposite

I don't follow that, did you say it "backwards"?

> I thought, and my rad onc advised me to have surgery rather than RT the minute I told
> her I'd rather risk urinary incontinence than bowel incontinence.

yep, now we're back on the same page again...Ron
I.P. Freely - 30 Dec 2005 00:53 GMT
"ron" <wrote

> The study does suggest that men choosing either RT treatment have more
> bowel SEs than men choosing RP (86%, 84% of the RT men didn't have
> bowel SEs vs. 94% of the RP men not having bowel SEs (higher numbers
> mean better outcomes, look at the controls)

Oh ... DIDN'T have problems. I assumed those were the numbers of pts who DID
have problems. TOLD ya these things confuse me.

Thanks.

I.P.
Alan Meyer - 29 Dec 2005 23:04 GMT
Ron wrote (I've changed this to fixed font spacing):
...
Age-adjusted, Long-term (median 6.3 years) EPIC Domain Scores
HRQOL Domain           BT     3-D CRT     RP   Age-matched

Urinary Irritative     81*      84        91     89
Urinary Incontinence   78*      86        80*    92
...

Ron,

Am I reading this right?

Do men with RP have _less_ urinary irritation than men who have
never had cancer treatment at all?

Do men with brachytherapy have _more_ urinary incontinence than
men with RP?

Both of those seem surprising, especially the second.  I can't,
for example, remember any radiation patient on this newsgroup
ever mentioning urinary incontinence.

   Alan
ron - 29 Dec 2005 23:52 GMT
> Ron wrote (I've changed this to fixed font spacing):
> ...
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Do men with RP have _less_ urinary irritation than men who have
> never had cancer treatment at all?

Alan...The numbers are correct.  I've gone back and inserted the 95%
confidence intervals up above.  So while the urinary irritative means
are different numbers for the controls and the RP men, the difference
is small and at the 95% confidence level it is possible that the
difference is due to chance rather than real effects.

> Do men with brachytherapy have _more_ urinary incontinence than
> men with RP?

Same thing here, there is only a 2 point difference between the BT and
RP means.  At the 95% confidence level one cannot say that the means
are significantly different.

> Both of those seem surprising, especially the second.  I can't,
> for example, remember any radiation patient on this newsgroup
> ever mentioning urinary incontinence.

Two more points Alan.  First, this data reflects the situation at a
median time of 6.2 years post-treatment.  I suspect that the median
time post-treatment for this NG is shorter than that.  Whether or not
that's significant I don't know, I'm just noting the difference.
Second, the median ages of the men in the study were: controls=69.1;
BT=70.4; CRT=75.7 and RP=67.2.  On average, the RT men are older than
the RP and control men.  I suspect age doesn't help any of these QOL
issues.  Further (as Steve K. notes from time to time), the men in this
NG are probably younger than those in the study.  This may tend to
lessen SEs.

I think the key points to the study are those numbers marked by an
asterisk in my initial post.  As noted in the footnotes to the table,
these numbers differ significantly (at the 95% confidence level) from
the controls.  Hope this helps...Ron

>     Alan
ronju99 - 30 Dec 2005 00:12 GMT
Jamie,
I'm a lot more blunt than most on this forum but that doesn't mean I'm
lacking in education. Just a different profession ,(law
enforcement).Bluntness comes with the turf.
I was 62 with Gleason 3+4=7 and PSA 6.7, T2b. Chose LRP 2 1/2 years ago
and still undetectable. If I had to do it over again I would choose RLRP.
It's seem to be quicker and easier on nerve sparing. I would not recommend
LRP as it can take quite awhile to perform. Mine was 10 1/2 hrs. RLRP was
not available when I chose.
As for EBRT, my cousin was 50 with psa of 9.0 and he went to Methodist in
Indianapolis and they gave him a choice; surgery or EBRT. He chose EBRT
and died 12 years later two years ago at the age of 62.
You can do all the research you want but in the end you will find there is
no cure for prostate cancer. Prostate cancer is something you don't mess
with. I hear it can be a very painfull death.
First of all, taking into consideration your  biopsy, psa, DRE,any scans
and your age, one will try and determine the probability that the cancer
is confined to your prostate. If there is a high probability that it is
confined then removing the prostate with the cancer inside is your only
choice. Any other choice is trying to kill the cells wihin the prostate.
There is no long term evidence that radiation or freezing has been
successful in doing this. Long term means over 15 years. Don't be fooled
by short term or intermediate term studies. They try and project future
success. Most men will live 10 to 15 years even if they choose to do
nothing. In my view all past attempts at radiation have failed and there
is no reason to believe they have found the magic bullet yet.
There are a lot of MD's that claim to be specialist but few that deal with
prostate cancer exclusively. You need to contact a prostate cancer
specialist at one of the major cancer centers for advise as to what course
of action is best suited for your perticular case.I believe you will find
that if your cancer is confined to the prostate as best they can tell,
your only realistic option is surgery reguardless of the side effects.
Side effects should not be a determiner of your choice. Life expectancy
should.
Ron S.    
Steve Kramer - 30 Dec 2005 01:29 GMT
> I'm a lot more blunt than most on this forum but that doesn't mean I'm
> lacking in education. Just a different profession ,(law
> enforcement).

Private eye?  Sam's son?  :-)

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

ron - 30 Dec 2005 02:32 GMT
ronju99 wrote...snip
> I was 62 with Gleason 3+4=7 and PSA 6.7, T2b. Chose LRP 2 1/2 years ago
> and still undetectable. If I had to do it over again I would choose RLRP.
...big snip...
> Side effects should not be a determiner of your choice. Life expectancy should.
> Ron S.

Hi Ron...Your comments caught my eye.  There is no long-term (not even
5 year, much less 10 or 15) bNED or survival data for LRP or RLRP.
Even Guillonneau, the pioneer of LRP, says biochemical recurrence
probabilities and survival data are still too immature to draw
conclusions about how LRP or RLRP compares to open RP in terms of these
important factors.  Your post seems to suggest that survival /
biochemical recurrence is important to you.  Why then did you choose
LRP (or would choose RLRP today) when there is no data saying that
biochemical recurrence and survival rates are equal to or better than
open RP.  Hope I'm not poking too hard, but I'm curious about the
thinking behind this.  I know many people "expect" LRP or RLRP to be at
least as good as RP in terms of recurrence-free probabilities, but
there simply is no longer-term data to allow comparison today.  Reminds
me of a car I once bought, it was supposed to be like the one I was
driving at the time, only better; but then that's another story...Ron
ronju99 - 30 Dec 2005 12:55 GMT
The goal is the same as RP; to remove the prostate while the cancer is
still confined. Only the technique is different. I agree that RP is the
best proven choice of the three. When I chose LRP it was with limited
research and I bought into the hipe that it would be easier on me than RP.
I was wrong and even today after doctors have had more experience at doing
it, I still wouldn't recommend it. The learning curve is very difficult
for surgeons and they often don't tell you the truth about there
experience level. You will also be subjected to anesthesia for a much
longer time than with RP or RLRP. My blood loss was 5 pts. Not much better
than RP or maybe even worst.
Obviously any new technique takes MD's time to perfect and when I chose
LRP they hadn't acquired enough experince to do a satisfactory job. RLRP
seems to be much easier to learn and the time required to perform the
procedure seems to be acceptable. Also most patients won't be going to one
of the major cancer centers and won't be recieving the same level of
expertise but will expect the same results. That's why I mention having
mine done at Indiana University Hospital, Indianapolis, In. The surgeon
trained at Washington University at St. Louis but mislead me over the
phone as to his experince level.
So when people go to these major city hospitals and even some universities
it doesn't mean they will be getting the advise and care that the major
cancer centers would give them.
I believe RP is still the first choice and RLRP would be a close second
provided they both are performed by experienced prostate cancer surgeons.
Both techniques remove the entire prostate without compromising the cancer
cells if done properly.
Ron S.
Alan Meyer - 30 Dec 2005 17:47 GMT
...
> As for EBRT, my cousin was 50 with psa of 9.0 and he went to Methodist in
> Indianapolis and they gave him a choice; surgery or EBRT. He chose EBRT
> and died 12 years later two years ago at the age of 62.
...

Unfortunately, there are many men who have been treated with
surgery, radiation, or both, who have died of prostate cancer.  It's
a mistake to generalize from one case.

> ... If there is a high probability that it is
> confined then removing the prostate with the cancer inside is your only
> choice. Any other choice is trying to kill the cells wihin the prostate.
> There is no long term evidence that radiation or freezing has been
> successful in doing this. Long term means over 15 years.
...

The most common radiation techniques used today are only 15-20
year old, but high energy x-rays have been used on cancer at least
since the 1950s.  They are used on many, many types of cancer,
including breast cancer, brain cancer, retinoblastoma, bone cancers,
and many others.  A lot of experience has been gained and there
have been many long term cures.

Radiation really is a well accepted technique.  There are pretty
good studies of how and why it works, how much radiation is
required, and so on.

I know a lot of people think surgery is the only option, and
believe they are saving lives by telling people not to use
radiation.

Maybe they're right but, if so, there are lot of highly educated
doctors and scientists out there who are fooling themselves and
everyone else.

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 29 Dec 2005 21:34 GMT
Welcome, Jamie, to the club for which no one ever applies.

I have not read all the replies yet that you have received, so I will only
skim the surface of what you need to know.  No one here could possibly
advise you based solely on your age and PSA.

However, assuming you have a Gleason of say 6 or 7 and you have a Stage of
say T1a, b or c, and no indication of extracapsule involvement, then you
have to consider surgery.  You don't have to decided on it (though every
other 50-yr-old here with your numbers has).  But, you do have to consider
it.

You have to consider everything.  You have to research.  You have to ask
questions (here is a good place for that).  But, even if it is the first and
only time in your life, you have to spend a lot of time with a few books,
the Internet and more than one doctor.  I'd suggest starting with Dr.
Walsh's and Dr. Strumm's prostate cancer books.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

>I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jamie
kh - 30 Dec 2005 00:12 GMT
> I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
> present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jamie

Good evening Jamie,

I'm a little older than you and had slightly worse numbers.  I was
57 when diagnosed.   I chose the 3 phase approach, sometimes called
the "Rudy Giulianni" treatment.

I had 2 four month Lupron shots, the first shot was a month before
the start of IMRT at the Inova Cancer Center in Alexandria, VA.  

The rad doc prescribed 25 sessions of IMRT, the advanced form of
External Beam Radiation.  This is a shorter protocol than the usual.

The rad doc and the rad nurse both said that side effects usually
start about the 4th or 5th week and that I might escape that
altogether.

I had 97 Palladium 103 seeds implanted a few weeks after the
end of the IMRT.   They gave me the option of having a local
anesthetic for the seeding.  

It is, after all, just the insertion of a dozen needles.  

This is similar to the trans-rectal biopsy that you probably had.

I was looking forward to seeing and hearing the procedure but
unfortunately, when the anesthesiologist touched my feet, I was able
to tell him which foot he was tapping so he knocked me out.

I would not count on the External Beam Radiation treating anything
that the doc doesn't plan to treat.  This device is very focussed
and precision aimed.  

They should have explained that they will use a CAT scan to locate
your prostate and will tattoo tiny alignment marks on you.  Both the
CAT scan machine and the IMRT robot are in rooms that are gridded
with laser alignment beams.

The CAT scan and the IMRT robot are precision calibrated to the same
co-ordinates such that when you receive the External Beam Radiation,
the beams will intersect precisely to your prostate and tumor.

During the treatment you feel nothing.  The Robot will move to the
appropriate angle and you hear the motors that move and focus the
beam.  It takes about 10 minutes.  

Side effects?  Fatigue, urinary urgency and frequency after the 4th
week.  This should quickly resolve.  

Possible bowel issues but I didn't have any.  Donno what 8 1/2 weeks
will bring.

Possible erectile issues but my theory is that this is related to
the reduction of prostatic fluid.   This happens as the prostate
tissue is absorbed.  

They should have discussed the staging and the Gleason with you.  
Your PSA is below 10, both my docs indicated that they use 10 as the
cut-off.   Below 10 is much better than above 10.  

Good luck to you.  
ronju99 - 30 Dec 2005 01:03 GMT
You might also be aware that more often than not you will have more than
one tumor and not all will be detected . The CT-scan is not that
sensitive. The reaon many have recurrence after choosing radiation is
because they don't see all the tumors. That's why they have started
seeding all the prostate to try and catch the one's they have been
missing. The learning curve for using radiation as a treatment option has
not been very successful in the past but may someday prove itself.
Ron S.
Alan Meyer - 30 Dec 2005 15:54 GMT
I'll add a few comments on KH's report thorough report.

The 25 sessions of EBRT is shorter than the 40-42 usually
prescribed for pure external beam treatment, but it's normal
for men receiving implanted seeds.  The major dose of
radiation to the tumor itself is coming from the seeds
with the external beam being used primarily to treat the
area around the tumor and around the prostate.  I think
pretty much everyone getting both seeds and EBRT
(some only get one or the other) is now getting 25
treatments.

Also, there is a lot of scanning done prior to administration
of the EBRT.  I don't think the main purpose of this is
to locate the tumor so much as it is to precisely locate
the prostate.  Aiming a few millimeters off can be a
significant mistake, so they try to get it as exact as they
can.  They then treat the _entire_ prostate, as well as the
areas immediately around the prostate.

Just as a surgeon does not try to just excise the tumor
and leave the rest of the prostate behind, so too I don't
believe the radiation oncologist is trying to just radiate
the tumor and leave the rest of the prostate untreated.

Both types of treatment, surgery and radiation, aim at the
entire prostate and, in the case of radiation, often a little
beyond.

   Alan
Doug Taylor - 30 Dec 2005 21:47 GMT
>I was recently diagnosed with Prostrate cancer (hell of a Christmas
>present)!  My PSA was 8.3, I am 50 years old and they believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Thank you for your time !

Hi Jamie.

Get enough opinions yet?

You are about the same age as I when diagnosed, and we are
"youngsters."   Double edged sword:  young enough to withstand the
rigors of surgery, but halos having a long life expectancy to live a
few decades with the inevitable side effects of the choice of
treatment.   Plus more time in which to develop recurrence at some
later date.

The cop said he was blunt.  I'm more blunt (a lawyer!).

All treatments for PCa suck, because:

a) none is perfect at "curing" PCa.  There are a huge number of
factors which determine what is the statically the best treatment for
"cure" for each patient, such as age of patient, stage of cancer,
gleason, psa, etc. etc.   There is always some chance of recurrence,
and if so, the treatments options will be different at that point.
Only you and your doctors can decide what is best for YOU.

b) no matter which treatment, your quality of life - sexual for sure,
and urinary continence, bowel function possibly -  life will NEVER be
the same as now.  Don't listen to anybody who tells you differently  -
it is pure bullshit.  You will lose the ability to ejaculate ranging
from zero for RP to not much with radiation.  Your erectile function
will depend on how the nerves, if any, left over from treatment react
to the hard-on drugs.  If the nerves are not spared, you're f.cked
because you won't be able to :-)  Even if you can achieve erection,
sex will be less pleasurable.  Those who differ with this truth must
confront this fact:  If sex is supposedly BETTER after treatment (some
yahoos insist on this) then why is it that in the history of the world
nobody ever volunteered to get their prostate removed?

Here is a simple generalization that has some degree of truth:

Men who are concerned with mortality first and "want the cancer out"
choose surgery.  Quality of life is secondary.

Men who are concerned with quality of life first, choose external
radiation or seeds.  Mortality is secondary.

You can't get much more personal than that; it is gut instinct.

Here are some recommendations I believe all patients can agree on:

1) Don't panic and make a rash decision for treatment based upon fear.

2) Read and educate yourself until you puke.  Walsh's book for sure;
many other resources on the net and in the library.

3) Consult more that one physician, at least 2 but don't stop
there!!!.  You MUST talk to a surgeon with a long track record, and
you MUST talk to a radiation oncologist.  They will tout their own
treatments, but you must hear them both out.

4) Check out the newer stuff:  robotic, lathroscopic surgery.  IMRT
radiation (which I chose).  Proton beam radiation.  I heard a rumor
that Bristol Myers is researching chemical prostate removal!  Maybe
you can volunteer :-)

5) After all that, make your OWN decision.  Don't let the likes of me
(a radiation guy) or all the RP guys peer group you.   The relevant
people are you, your wife, and your doctors.

6) Once you choose, NEVER second guess yourself.  As long as you made
this difficult choice based upon the best information available, then
live with it.  Coulda Shoulda Woulda?  Fuggedaboudit!

Good luck and god bless.
I.P. Freely - 31 Dec 2005 03:17 GMT
"Doug Taylor" wrote>
> Men who are concerned with quality of life first, choose external
> radiation or seeds.

And even that's debatable and highly personal, considering the bowel threat
of radiation relative to that of surgery. There ain't no free lunch in this
sport, so we must each choose our own poison.

I.P.
Glassman - 31 Dec 2005 06:25 GMT
 Let me add something to consider that I left out. I was a very very poor
urinator before surgery. I would be at the urinal 4-6 times during a cold
winter football game, and stand there for 10 minutes at a clip. I was up
several times a night, every night.   This may seem trivial to some, but I
really had a miserable quality of sleep for years. Immediately following
cath removal, and now 3 years later, I pee like a wild Rhino in the bush.  I
sleep through the night. To me this was a just another reason for surgery.

Signature

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Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
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Brian - 31 Dec 2005 14:37 GMT
> Even if you can achieve erection, sex will be less pleasurable.  Those who
> differ with this truth must confront this fact:  If sex is supposedly
> BETTER after treatment (some yahoos insist on this) then why is it that in
> the history of the world nobody ever volunteered to get their prostate
> removed?

This part is defective reasoning.

There are reasons why hysterectomy is not popular even though menstrual
periods are less popular: it is major surgery, and things can go worng.
For this grand reason, I would not volunteer.  

Also, as wonderful as sexual intercourse is, it is a lousy "reason to
live", and few people would volunteer for prostatectomy even if it were
guaranteed that orgasms would be twice as long and twice as intense.
Doug Taylor - 31 Dec 2005 17:03 GMT
>> Even if you can achieve erection, sex will be less pleasurable.  Those who
>> differ with this truth must confront this fact:  If sex is supposedly
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>live", and few people would volunteer for prostatectomy even if it were
>guaranteed that orgasms would be twice as long and twice as intense.

Brian, please turn up your irony detector.

The point is and will continue to be that a PCa patient's sex life
inevitably suffers and decreases after ANY treatment.  It is a
physiological fact of life and all patients must be aware of this
going in.  Pollyanna claims about "no" sexual side effects or that sex
life is "better" after any treatment is just so much complete
bullshit, AFAIC, and patients should reject them out of hand.

Therefore, indeed, a patient should NOT base a treatment choice upon
projected future sexual function.  If ALL treatments decrease
function, then this factor zeros out.

After mortality and cure projections, quality of life issues after
treatment should focus more upon urinary incontinence, bowel function,
etc. than sex life.

As a multi sport athlete, my treatment choice of IMRT was greatly
influenced by my refusal to accept ANY risk of urinary incontinence
post treatment.  Sorry, but there was no way I was going to face the
next 20 or 30 years of my life with a potentially leaky bladder while
cycling (road and off-road), skiing (downhill and x-c), and speed
skating (ice and inline).  Better dead than a couch potato :-)

I was also admittedly more or less mislead into wishful thinking that
IMRT would result in little or no sexual side effects.  Wrong.
Erections not much without Vitamin V; ejaculation volume paltry and
weak; libido pathetic.  Of course, not walking around with a hard on
all the time or bugging my poor wife for sex 4 times a week has
certain advantages for 50 something aging baby boomers :-)

As I continue to recover from my radiation treatment three years ago,
I will see how the bowel function is affected.  But as of now, no
incontinence, no urinary frequency or urgency, no bowel problems.  
Brian - 31 Dec 2005 17:50 GMT
>>There are reasons why hysterectomy is not popular even though menstrual
>>periods are less popular: it is major surgery, and things can go worng.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Brian, please turn up your irony detector.

I recognize a smiley when I see it, but not irony.

(I use an irony when the shirt is wrinkly)

> The point is and will continue to be that a PCa patient's sex life
> inevitably suffers and decreases after ANY treatment.  

That's at least partly because we age...

...at least we hope to continue to age...

> It is a physiological fact of life and all patients must be aware of this going
> in.  Pollyanna claims about "no" sexual side effects or that sex life is
> "better" after any treatment is just so much complete bullshit, AFAIC, and
> patients should reject them out of hand.

It appears from anecdotal testimonials in this group and other mailing
lists I'm on that the post-treatment sexual function change is variable.
Most experiences are of a decrease in sexual capacity and feedback,
meaning enjoyment, but some are positive!  Unless we assume them liars,
the change due to treatment is both positive and negative (for
surgery: heavy emphasis on negative, emphasis on heavy negative).

> Therefore, indeed, a patient should NOT base a treatment choice upon
> projected future sexual function.  If ALL treatments decrease function,
> then this factor zeros out.

Disagree unless worded: "if All treatments decrease function EQUALLY, then
this factor zeros out". That assumed/asserted equality of degradation in
quality is NOT asserted by many.

> After mortality and cure projections, quality of life issues after
> treatment should focus more upon urinary incontinence, bowel function,
> etc. than sex life.

I agree emphatically!  This because we engage in those functions more, and
because dysfunctionality in those excretory processes affects a life more
than (an increase in) loss of sexual function.

> As a multi sport athlete: Better dead than a couch potato :-)

There are many things I'd rather, than diapers for the next 30 years.
(and I'm a mouse potato)

> I was also admittedly more or less mislead into wishful thinking that
> IMRT would result in little or no sexual side effects.  Wrong.

This varies person to person.  Skill of the phaser-jock may come into
play, the exact extent of the disease, and the ability of the body
to recover from being stuck in a well-aimed microwave oven turned up
high for a few minutes a day for 35 days out of 50 will differ physique to
physique.
Doug Taylor - 31 Dec 2005 23:11 GMT
>> I was also admittedly more or less mislead into wishful thinking that
>> IMRT would result in little or no sexual side effects.  Wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>high for a few minutes a day for 35 days out of 50 will differ physique to
>physique.

I'm sure this is the case for surgery and seeds as well: there are
innumerable variables to consider.

While I still maintain that it is counter intuitive that removing or
radiating to smithereens the prostate and damaging or destroying the
nerves that enable erections won't have a deleterious effect on sexual
function and pleasure experience, I will concede that it is pointless
to argue.  All experiences are subjective and there will be as many
different outcomes and opinions as there are patients.

In counseling a newbie who is trying to decide on a treatment, my main
point is that the patient should resign himself that his sex life
"very probably" or "most likely" or "more often than not" will be
impaired by any treatment.  Choose a treatment based upon other
factors first:  age of patient, extent of tumor, gleason, psa, and the
other side effects, etc., with sex near the bottom of the list.  

Then when the surgeon or the rad. onc. has done his or her job, and
lowered the psa to negligible, the patient will have the opportunity
to be pleasantly surprised with a good sexual performance outcome than
devastated by a bad one, eh?
I.P. Freely - 01 Jan 2006 01:34 GMT
> As a multi sport athlete, my treatment choice of IMRT was greatly
> influenced by my refusal to accept ANY risk of urinary incontinence
> post treatment.  Sorry, but there was no way I was going to face the
> next 20 or 30 years of my life with a potentially leaky bladder while
> cycling (road and off-road), skiing (downhill and x-c), and speed
> skating (ice and inline).  Better dead than a couch potato :-)

Potato, potahto; and potential, schmotential: my leaky bladder hasn't cost
me one minute of play time. Diapers work fine for dry land sports, and in
the water ... well ... what's the difference? Although I am still getting a
LITTLE drier after 14 months post-op, I doubt I'll ever be wearing khakis
sans pads, especially since I'm still wearing ordinary Depends, not just
pads, 24/7 when not in the water (they deteriorate like a roll of TP in the
water). Ain't my problem, and nobody knows anyway unless I tell 'em.

It strikes my as odd you chose a treatment more likely than surgery to give
you bowel problems, even if they take years to show up. It was exactly that
threat that led my rad onc to advise me against radiation as soon as I
answered her question, "Which would bother you more, urinary or bowel in
continence?"

Believe me when I say I far prefer damp diapers to lumpy or splooged
diapers.

I.P. and that ain't all
Doug Taylor - 01 Jan 2006 21:15 GMT
>It strikes my as odd you chose a treatment more likely than surgery to give
>you bowel problems, even if they take years to show up. It was exactly that
>threat that led my rad onc to advise me against radiation as soon as I
>answered her question, "Which would bother you more, urinary or bowel in
>continence?"

My rad. onc. advised that long term bowel problems are possible but
not likely (less than 20% of patients).

So far (3 years post) so good.  And I'm not losing any sleep worrying
about it.

You choose your poison and then you should never second guess or look
back, eh?
I.P. Freely - 02 Jan 2006 03:03 GMT
> My rad. onc. advised that long term bowel problems are possible but
> not likely (less than 20% of patients).
> You choose your poison and then you should never second guess or look
> back, eh?

You've heard 20, I've heard up to 50 ... but I wouldn't accept even the 20
given any other options. Personal choices.

I.P.
Doug Taylor - 02 Jan 2006 20:25 GMT
>> My rad. onc. advised that long term bowel problems are possible but
>> not likely (less than 20% of patients).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>You've heard 20, I've heard up to 50 ... but I wouldn't accept even the 20
>given any other options. Personal choices.

All the different opinions and information available is why all men
must make their own treatment choice after consulting their own
physicians who have actual medical degrees and get paid for their
opinions; not be influenced by hearsay, myth, and bullshit from
unqualified non-professionals;  and never second guess their choice
after making it, because that it is completely counter productive.
I.P. Freely - 02 Jan 2006 22:40 GMT
>>You've heard 20, I've heard up to 50 ... but I wouldn't accept even the 20
>>given any other options. Personal choices.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> opinions; not be influenced by hearsay, myth, and bullshit from
> unqualified non-professionals;

You've misunderstood, and are preaching to the choir. My "hearsay, myth, and
bullshit" sources are among the most revered 20-40 sources of PC clinical
data I could find in 6 months of full-time, trained digging with the help of
this wonderful group. You've probably heard of, and maybe read, every one of
those sources, ranging from Walsh to the ACS. I don't do anecdotes, don't
make IMPORTANT decisions based on a mere handful of uro oncs. On the
contrary, I changed the mindset of an entire university/VA joint teaching
hospital oncology review board with the facts I gleaned from my sources --
including their own PC book. The half-dozen uro-oncs I consulted personally
before I even came to the attention of that board were just a drop in my
research bucket.

> and never second guess their choice after making it,
> because that it is completely counter productive.

It was only because of my research that I haven't second-guessed my choices,
even though one of them left me in Depends and another willingly increases
my risk of dying FROM PC. Had I been willing to place my trust in "merely"
8-10 senior interdisciplinary oncology reseachers/ professors/
practicioners/ authors working together on my case, my past 14 months would
have been dramatically different and my second-guessing would have made me
miserable.

NOW IF ONLY THAT LEVEL OF EFFORT WOULD MAKE OUTLOOK EXPRESS WORK, I'D BE
HAPPY. (Don't even say it: Thunderbird's giving me fits, too ... stuck in
password hell even though I don't WANT no steenkin' password.)

I.P.
Brian - 04 Jan 2006 01:46 GMT
> NOW IF ONLY THAT LEVEL OF EFFORT WOULD MAKE OUTLOOK EXPRESS WORK, I'D BE
> HAPPY.

Outhouse express DOES work, as well as it works.

What's happening is that YOU are expecting O.E. to be a well-designed and
well-implemented mail tool, that is expecting properly processed sow's
ears to be the same as silk purses.
I.P. Freely - 04 Jan 2006 05:56 GMT
> Outhouse express DOES work, as well as it works.
>
> What's happening is that YOU are expecting O.E. to be a well-designed and
> well-implemented mail tool

I just want it to post messages when I hit SEND and receive them when I hit
SEND & RECEIVE. About 50% of the time it refuses, for anywhere from minutes
to a day or two. Many times it won't even open at all. So far, neither Dell
nor Microsoft have been able to fix it for two years.

I.P. on Dell
kh - 06 Jan 2006 01:50 GMT
> > NOW IF ONLY THAT LEVEL OF EFFORT WOULD MAKE OUTLOOK EXPRESS WORK, I'D BE
> > HAPPY.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> well-implemented mail tool, that is expecting properly processed sow's
> ears to be the same as silk purses.

Yes, as someone once said, "I'm guessing you'd be surprised how many
people here are totally convinced, to the point of getting angry
about it, that one man's experience outweighs peer-reviewed
statistics based on 10,000 patient histories."

O.E. is not a well-designed or well-implement mail tool but some
folk will stick with obsolete technologies and get angry when that's
pointed out to them.
kh - 03 Jan 2006 13:28 GMT
> My rad. onc. advised that long term bowel problems are possible but
> not likely (less than 20% of patients).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You choose your poison and then you should never second guess or look
> back, eh?

My rad-doc cautioned me that there was historic evidence for serious
bowel injury from seeding and EBRT but that they had modified their
treatment protocol to reduce this.  Since they did that 10 years
ago, in their thousands of cases, they have not had a single serious
problem.

I didn't press for clarification but I'm guessing that they did not
include occasional diarhea or constipation as a "serious" problem.  

The modifications to their treatment protocol included,

 Drugs, both OTC and prescription, to reduce bowel problems.

 Precision guiding of the seed implantation.  Palladium-103 only.

 Improved dosage calculations.

 IMRT replacing 3D-CRT and older, less focussed external radiation.

 A weekly debrief during the external radiation.

 Patient directives to avoid bowel irritating foods, eat smaller
 meals.  

Each item contributed an insignificant "edge" but the
probabilities add up.  

My experience - I had NO bowel issues. No bleeding, no bowel
incontinence, no urgency.  I looked for problems.

I am at seeding + 16 months.   If anything, I am more regular and
go better than before.    I eat a varied diet now and am not
especially careful to have balanced meals.  I do have a green salad
for one meal a day, and enjoy many items that were forbidden during
the 3 months post seeding.

I come here and read rants about colon problems from surgery
advocates.  Well, at our age, anything can happen but I believe that
the colon-bowel problems were solved 10 years ago.   It is in the
literature but it is no longer an issue.

I also believe that you and I are past any "radiation-as-a-trigger"
bowel problem.   Things can happen but, here is the touchstone:

I've read this group for about 2 years, I don't recall ever seeing
any Rad-grad asking about colon-bowel problems.   I've also dragged
the archives at "seedpods" and not found anything.

There are many discussions on urinary stoppage at the 4-6 week point
which suggests that rad-grads are discussing what happens to them.

I believe that the distribution of guys choosing surgery and
rad-seeds-EBRT is about equal.   Given that there are no other
discussions of rad side effects,  I infer that there are no other
serious side effects.

There are lots of minor ones.   I had fatigue for about 6 months but
there were other things going on, including an employer that was
going under, management clawing and fighting for their jobs,
halucinating about revenue and customers.

My libido is WAY down but 9 months post-Lupron, I'm still clocking
low-normal Testosterone levels, 299, 279.   I can manage a
serviceable erection without resorting to chemical help so I guess I
don't have any complaints.

As you say, the issue is how effective was the treatment.   One can
only hope for the best and live life to the fullest.
I.P. Freely - 03 Jan 2006 18:27 GMT
> I do have a green salad for one meal a day

I hope that doesn't mean primarily lettuce, which is a pretty useless food,
not much more than a way to package water. We need all the colors of veggies
and fruits we can get -- there are even some blue ones available, I've
heard -- for a well-rounded diet.

> I come here and read rants about colon problems from surgery advocates.

I've not noticed that. The primary advantages I've seen mentioned for
surgery were related more to post-op pathology, leaving the window open for
adjuvant radiation if necessary, the emotional boost from "getting the beast
the hell out of our bodies", the chance for a compete cure with more
tolerable (by personal choice) permanent SEs ... things that play a big and
justified part in making advocates out of some people.

But attaching the "advocate" word implies undeserved bias, which is not
evident in many or most surgery recommendations I see here ... but is still
why I try to avoid advocating any treatment. Most mentions of bowel problems
I see here are responses to rad advocates' unsubstantiated claims that rad
presents no bowel threats. In fact I've seen "surgery graduates" point out
that rad fits some scenarios very well, based on the literature.

> I believe that the colon-bowel problems were solved 10 years ago.
> It is in the literature but it is no longer an issue.

Then please explain why my rad onc, who is part owner of a new high-end
cancer rad center with state-of-the-art radiation bells and whistles,
advised me against rad the minute I said bowel problems were near the top of
my  $#!+  list. And present some proof that the bowel threat is history,
because I'm going to need that for my own decision if and when my PSA starts
up again; my docs advise rad for me at that point and I want all the
facts -- not anecdotal claims; FACTS and statistics -- before choosing my
next step.

> I also believe that you and I are past any "radiation-as-a-trigger"
> bowel problem.

Tell that to the trials and books that say your BELIEF is premature at 16
months. And if you want rational, informed, pragmatic people to share your
BELIEF, please back it up with facts. MANY of us need to see them for
ourselves, since a pt's BELIEFS are of almost no use in others' big
decisions.

> Given that there are no other discussions of rad side effects,
> I infer that there are no other serious side effects.

That's a stunning admission. Not only have you drawn a PC-world-shaking
conclusion from a buncha guys and gals hanging around the keyboard, but it
is based on assuming that if it isn't discussed, it doesn't exist. Tell that
to the legions of osteoporosis pts whose docs didn't mention it until their
bones began snapping.

> My libido is WAY down but 9 months post-Lupron, I'm still clocking
> low-normal Testosterone levels, 299, 279.   I can manage a
> serviceable erection without resorting to chemical help so I guess I
> don't have any complaints.

I would have ONE complaint with those T levels: my Lupron is not suppressing
my T to castrate levels. What the heck good's ADT if it doesn't do its job
of driving T to castrate levels? Why should we tolerate the med's cost,
discomfort, and some SEs without getting its cancer-fighting benefits?

> As you say, the issue is how effective was the treatment.
> One can only hope for the best and live life to the fullest.

I suggest a third element: One should learn a ton of facts to support their
actions and their hopes, and provide those facts when advocating a choice
for others, lest the advocacy ring hollow.

I.P.
Doug Taylor - 04 Jan 2006 02:16 GMT
>> I do have a green salad for one meal a day
>
>I hope that doesn't mean primarily lettuce, which is a pretty useless food,
>not much more than a way to package water. We need all the colors of veggies
>and fruits we can get -- there are even some blue ones available, I've
>heard -- for a well-rounded diet.

>I suggest a third element: One should learn a ton of facts to support their
>actions and their hopes, and provide those facts when advocating a choice
>for others, lest the advocacy ring hollow.

I suggest that it is not the role of survivors and members of a
support group to advocate a choice for others at all.  The ONLY proper
advocates of a treatment for a particular patient are his own personal
physicians and his wife.  

The role of survivors and support group participants is to tell their
own story, period.  Certainly, to cite the facts and resources that
supported their treatment decision, but not to extrapolate to others,
which is both presumptuous and suspect.  The last people I listen to
in the context of PCa treatments - as well as religion and politics -
are True Believers who are convinced that Their Way is the Only Way,
for everybody.

It ain't.
I.P. Freely - 04 Jan 2006 06:05 GMT
> I suggest that it is not the role of survivors and members of a
> support group to advocate a choice for others at all.

I don't, even when asked to do so, because I agree with you.

> The role of survivors and support group participants is to tell their
> own story, period.  Certainly, to cite the facts and resources that
> supported their treatment decision, but not to extrapolate to others,
> which is both presumptuous and suspect.

NOW you're asking for it!!!  '-)
I'm guessing you'd be surprised how many people here are totally convinced,
to the point of getting angry about it, that one man's experience outweighs
peer-reviewed statistics based on 10,000 patient histories.

I.P.
Doug Taylor - 04 Jan 2006 14:25 GMT
>NOW you're asking for it!!!  '-)
>I'm guessing you'd be surprised how many people here are totally convinced,
>to the point of getting angry about it, that one man's experience outweighs
>peer-reviewed statistics based on 10,000 patient histories.

One man's experience is valid for that man, whatever the statistics
for most men.

For example, I am suspect when a man claims his sex life is BETTER
after PCa treatment.  I believe that is counter intuitive.  But who am
I to gainsay someone else's experience?

I repeat:  your experience is yours and you are free and encouraged to
report to others what it is do that others may profit by it.  But as
soon as you begin preaching and advocating that your way is THE way,
you are overstepping your bounds.  
I.P. Freely - 05 Jan 2006 02:06 GMT
> I.P. wrote
>>I'm guessing you'd be surprised how many people here are totally
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> One man's experience is valid for that man, whatever the statistics
> for most men.

Why do I begin to think you're TRYING to be obstinate? What these people
have said is that one man's experience means more TO EVERY PC PATIENT IN THE
WORLD'S DECISIONS than large-scale statistics. (I don't know how they select
this "one man", in one case it was a husband, another was a brother-in-law
or some such choice.)

> For example, I am suspect when a man claims his sex life is BETTER
> after PCa treatment.

I haven't seen that, but, as you say, it's his opinion, and someone probably
requested it.

> I repeat:  your experience is yours and you are free and encouraged to
> report to others what it is do that others may profit by it.  But as
> soon as you begin preaching and advocating that your way is THE way,
> you are overstepping your bounds.

I agree. That's why I not only avoid doing that, but also usually object
when others take that stance. There are some PC scenarios which lead to
no-brainer choices, but they are few and far between and STILL subject to
personal priorities.

I.P.
Pops - 05 Jan 2006 17:07 GMT
Thought I'd throw in my two decrepit bits

Your decision.

I'll tell you how mine went...

First I set priorities:
1) Quality of Life
2) Length of Life
3) Non QOL or LOL affecting SE's
4) Losses of Functionality or Options due to Treatment

(#4 turned out to be a big one!!)

Then, research, research, research...

1) Found most statistics to be useless. Controls not convergent (too
many changes in diagnostics, treatments, demographics over the
statistical time frame), Not enough time/data (standard deviation
pukes!).

2) From information available and my situation (yours will, of course,
be different) the major treatment options. EBRT, seeds, RP, LRP,RLRP)
showed no confirmable (screw the statistics) difference in rate of
success for treating the PCa. I was not particularly concerned about
the standard SE's (sexual or continence). Just wanted to get rid of the
cancer (see priorities).

This left me with lower priority items to evaluate and that evaluation
was how the proverbial sh.t-hit-the-fan for me.

1) Recurrence treatment: If surgery (ANY form) doesn't work, salvage
radiation is possible. If radiation doesn't work, surgery is generally
not an option. At this point there are only two "curative" treatments
for PCa: surgery and radiation. Seemed to me that I ought to maximuize
my "curative" options so surgery went to the top of my list. Someone
posted here that there is NO cure for Pca. They are statistically
right, and that can be said for almost any (probably all) cancers. So,
if you "screw the statistics" you're left with this as a qualitative
decision. Options are still options, as many as you can gather around
you.

2) OK - which surgery? This one was tricky. Most surgeons will not
argue about the benefit of being able to feel as well as see. LRP and
RLRP eliminate the ability to make tactile analysis and decisions.
Having said that, what are the downsides of RP? Recovery, infection,
blood loss - all temporary. Any permanent? Yep!! (I'm not completely
competent in explaining the following phenomenon so feel free to jump
in) A vertical incision the size of RP - from the belly-button to the
you-know-what - severs many small and medium size blood vessels, both
arterial and veinous. Al these vessels don't generally "grow back", but
some must if the tissue they nourish is to survive. Some of the load is
taken by "going around" but much is though less-than-perfect bridging
of the incision during healing. Think of it like the difference between
normal and scar tissues. Anyway the idiom might be stated as "not a
good idea to cut twice in the same place". Twice may be viable, three
times, from what I understand is a definite no-no. That has certain
implications if you need to undergo successive surgeries in the same
organ area - like the colon or the stomach. I was lucky (and unlucky)
to be provided with an example with my mother-in-law. She had severe
gastro-intetinal problems all her life (her own fault). She had her
stomach REMOVED, part of her Colon removed and one other (can't
remember what for) - all in the same general area. Her third incision
(same area) never really healed. Her final downfall  necessiated
surgery to correct a blood flow problem - in the same area. They
couldn't do it! There was no way they could make any kind of an
incision and not induce overwhelming tissue death (they got a better
name for that but I can't think of it now). Anyway, she died. When you
think of it, it makes simple sense - cutting into ones flesh never has
an overall  positive impact - there is always trauma - some is always
permanent (scar tissue at the least). The less cutting that has to be
done, the less trauma is sustained. Makes common sense to me.

There was a final decision. Who and where. Everyone wants the best
surgery/surgeon possible, however IMHO the length of a surgeon's
credentials is asymtotic to the benefit derived. My local oncologist
had executed  100's of successful LRP's and `1000's of successful RP's.
His bedside manner was less than optimum. He was direct and concise - I
had to remember to ask lots of questions - he didn't offer much outside
the "necesssities" unless pressed, but then he was always forthcoming
and accurate. He could perform the surgery locally and that meant my
familiy and friends could be around me. Back to attiude and support is
everything. The facility was top notch and state-of-the-art surgically
(not so great post care/recovery, but ya can't have everything). I
chose that option. I could have gone to Sloan, or Roswell, or a dozen
other highly recognized facilities - my insurance would cover it, but I
would be alone (except fo rmy wife - of course). What was available
locally was significantly better than "just good enough". I chose to
opt for my support network. I'd do it again - it meant everything.

A quick story before I leave you (I hear you say, "Thank God!!").

At my six month follow-up my uro gave me a memo that stated that he was
leaving the area for a new teaching position. At the end of the
appointment (we had become relatively good friends) I asked him why.

He smiled, "I can't get this hospital to invest in a robot!"

My retort, "You have always said that LRP was as good if not better
than RLRP!!"

His reply, "It is, in my hands. A computer can't make changes to adjust
for the unexpected."

"So why?" I repeated.

"Because that's what the patients want, no matter what I tell them." he
replied,  "There are lots of  less experienced and less capable
surgeons our there, and the robot doesn't make mistakes if  everything
is as expected. In my opinion robotic surgery provides me with less
information and ability to analyze the situation than LRP does, and of
course much less than what RP does, but you got to be good for those,
really good. I think I am..."

"So the paitent rules?" I quipped, smiling.

"Yep!"

He's now at Mass General...

See Ya!!
DonC - 05 Jan 2006 17:35 GMT
> Thought I'd throw in my two decrepit bits
> 2) OK - which surgery? This one was tricky. Most surgeons will not
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you-know-what - severs many small and medium size blood vessels, both
> arterial and veinous.

I'll add my two bits here.

"A vertical incision the size of RP - from the belly-button to the
you-know-what......"

My vertical incision was one third that size. Less than 4" long.   I feel NO
after effects from the cut blood vessels.

I'd like to hear from others going the RRP route what size incision they
had. Do I hear 3" ??  : )
JK@work - 31 Dec 2005 17:59 GMT
 Sex is great..... even limp sex is fun.... it's getting old that's a drag.
Hey guys we're all in our 50's-60's.... plus our wives aren't 23 anymore
either.  Our sex drive has been on the downslide for awhile now, and PCa
treatment has just made it that much quicker.  Let's not forget that sex is
just another thing to do.  Exactly where it falls on your top ten list may
vary.  For some it's way at the top, along with drinking beer until you
puke.  For others it's somewhere between having a good bowel movement and
shooting animals.

Signature

"Don't be offended I'm just SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
http://www.sinrodstudios.com/
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Steve Kramer - 31 Dec 2005 21:59 GMT
> The cop said he was blunt.  I'm more blunt (a lawyer!).

Blunt?  Ever heard of an emination of a pernundrum?  I think there is
nothing blunt in a lawyer's world.  ;-)
 
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