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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2005

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Newly Diagnosed.  Worried about empty specimen container.

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Ron - 27 Dec 2005 19:45 GMT
Hello.  Thank goodness for this group.  I've been reading and reading,
ordered books, etc.

I'm 63, no history of PCa in family.  I've had an enlarged prostate for
several years, with "normal" DRE's and PSA's in 3.5 to 4.5 range.   Based on
a PSA of 5.11 a few weeks ago, my regular doctor said "see a urologist."  I
chose one recommended by a neighbor as having a national reputation for
surgery.  That guy's DRE showed "assymetry"  (not a nodule), and so
recommended biopsy.

I was informed a few days ago of a positive biopsy.    From the pathologists
report: of 12 sample cores, one is Gleason (3+3)=6, involving 15% of the
surface area.  Three others are labeled "Focus of Atypical Small Acinar
Proliferation," and one other is labeled High Grade PIN.  PSA is 5.3.
I'll be getting a bone scan and bladder endoscopy in next few weeks, then
urologist will meet with me to discuss options.

But here's what's disturbing me at the moment (besides the fact that I have
cancer):  One of the 12 biopsies is labeled by the pathology lab as: "Right
Apex: No tissue is received in the specimen container."

I can't get through now to the urologist's office because of the holidays.
I am wondering what happened to the sample?  Has anyone ever heard of this?
Where is the mistake likely to have been made?  Is it possible the sample
was released before removal of the probe?  It happens to have been a core
adjacent to the malignant core, so I'm wondering if it's possible that
malignant cells were released into my body.

Thank you for any advice.  And thank you for this group!   -Ron
Clarence Crow - 27 Dec 2005 21:39 GMT
<snip>
>But here's what's disturbing me at the moment (besides the fact that I have
>cancer):  One of the 12 biopsies is labeled by the pathology lab as: "Right
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>adjacent to the malignant core, so I'm wondering if it's possible that
>malignant cells were released into my body.

It happens, though mine was not the same in the biopsy report. I had
10 cores taken and only 9 were referenced in the report.
Down the line, I queried the chief oncologist at the start of my
treatment on this and he just shrugged and suggested the unreported
core was probably "a misfire" and moved on to other matters.

Actually, anyone having a prostate biopsy is extremely LUCKY to get a
valid report first time round, as the TRUS imaging is very hazy just
looking at the prostate, let alone defining the tumour. I know of a
guy who eventually had 4 biopsies, (2 at different venues), before he
got a valid report, which showed some 2x G8s and 1 x G9.

I wouldn't worry about malignant cells released into your body. PCa
doesn't work like that.

   
-- Reader to complete...
-- Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake:

-- Regards

-- CC
ron - 27 Dec 2005 22:01 GMT
Ron wrote...snip...
> Is it possible the sample was released before removal of the probe?  It happens to have
> been a core adjacent to the malignant core, so I'm wondering if it's possible that
> malignant cells were released into my body.

Ron...Don't know what happened to the sample, but cancerous cells from
the prostate were circulating in you body way before the biopsy.
Generally, it is not until the disease progresses to the point where
various growth factors and proteins allow colonization of the cells at
distant sites that circulating cells can cause mets.  Until that time,
circulating cancerous cells simply die and are removed from the body.
Given the few pieces of information you included in your note, you are
unlikely to be at that stage.  So don't worry, even if the snippet was
left in your body, it is unlikely to cause any negative effects...Best
wishes and good health, Ron
Brian - 27 Dec 2005 22:21 GMT
> That guy's DRE showed "assymetry"  (not a
> nodule), and so recommended biopsy.

Considering how a DRE is done, of course is "ass-symetry".

The "no tissue" needle might just be a miss... I've never heard of it,
which does not astound me since I'm new to all this.  Was the biopsy
finger or ultra-sound guided?
Ron - 28 Dec 2005 00:33 GMT
>> That guy's DRE showed "assymetry"  (not a
>> nodule), and so recommended biopsy.
>
> Considering how a DRE is done, of course is "ass-symetry".

:-)  Heh.  Now there was a Freudian typo, eh?  (I'm so discombobulated, I've
done a lot worse.  The other night I walked into a glass inner door, heading
for the outer door beyond it.  None the worse except for some bent
eye-glasses.  I guess if anyone can sympathize, you guys will.)

> The "no tissue" needle might just be a miss... I've never heard of it,
> which does not astound me since I'm new to all this.  Was the biopsy
> finger or ultra-sound guided?

Ultrasound.  Dumb me even asks the MD while he's doing it:  "You do have a
way of mapping each extract with the position, right?"  He said "Of course."
Now I see, the path report shows the mapping (though he probably never read
the detail that shows one sample tube was empty.)  Each sampling sounded
like a pneumatic stapling gun going off.  He was working with a technician -
maybe she made a sample-transfer mistake, I don't know.

I'm so keyed on details; methinks I gotta take a break for a while.  I've
been asking myself, do I want to go with an MD who'd make a mistake like
this, but I'm sure I'll get better perspective after I read more and stay
tuned with you guys.  Also, I live in a suburb of NYC, so maybe I'll try for
a second opinion at Sloan Kettering.  (Any MD recommendations?)

Anyway, thank you Brian and everyone else who responded!  I appreciate your
help and support,  Ron
Sandy K. - 29 Dec 2005 00:43 GMT
> :-)  Heh.  Now there was a Freudian typo, eh?  (I'm so discombobulated, I've
> done a lot worse.  The other night I walked into a glass inner door, heading
> for the outer door beyond it.  None the worse except for some bent
> eye-glasses.  I guess if anyone can sympathize, you guys will.)

Yup, a bit distracted.  I would think it's quite normal.

 Also, I live in a suburb of NYC, so maybe I'll try for
> a second opinion at Sloan Kettering.  (Any MD recommendations?)

I too live in a suburb of NYC - NJ to be more precise.  Although I use a
very well respected urologist, I went to Sloane for my second opinion.  The
head of urology there is Dr. Peter Scardino - very well known and respected.
Dr. Scardino took over my case and perfromed my RRP.  I suggest you contact
his office - if he's not seeing new patients, his office will recommend
other very competent Drs. at Sloane.  Others on this board have been to
Sloane and used other docs - they will most likely chime in and provide
other names.

Good luck,
Sandy K.
Diagnosed 2/04
RRP 6/04

> Anyway, thank you Brian and everyone else who responded!  I appreciate your
> help and support,  Ron
Alan Meyer - 29 Dec 2005 16:09 GMT
> ...
> I'm so keyed on details; methinks I gotta take a break for a while.  I've
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a second opinion at Sloan Kettering.  (Any MD recommendations?)
> ...

Like most of us here, I'm not a doctor and my opinion is
often uninformed guesswork based on oversimplified
reasoning from faulty premises.

So, starting with that caveat, I'll go on to venture an uninformed
opinion.

I surmise that the actual sample is taken by the equipment,
not by the doctor.  The doctor guides the needle to the right place
and then activates the equipment which performs the "snap" to get
the sample.

If that's true, your doctor had no opportunity to drop the core.  The
part he did was probably done right but, for some reason, the
biopsy needle device dropped the sample, or the technician
mis-handled it after the doctor brought it to him or her.  So I
wouldn't conclude that your doctor is a fumbler.

As for Sloan-Kettering.  Their reputation is so high that I expect
they get their pick of doctors and all of them are good.  Ditto for
Hopkins in Baltimore, M.D. Anderson in Dallas, and many other
famous cancer centers.

On another matter, your numbers are very encouraging.  It
appears your cancer was caught very early.  Most of the men
on this group who have been "cured" probably started out
with worse numbers than you have.

Your prospects for success by any of the standard treatment
methods are excellent, and you might wish to investigate
some of the easier treatments, like brachytherapy (radioactive
seeds), as well as surgery.

Best of luck.

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 30 Dec 2005 02:20 GMT
> :-)  Heh.  Now there was a Freudian typo, eh?  (I'm so discombobulated,
> I've
> done a lot worse.  The other night I walked into a glass inner door,
> heading for the outer door beyond it.  None the worse except for some bent
> eye-glasses.  I guess if anyone can sympathize, you guys will.)

The day I found out, I backed into my wife's car in the driveway.  Cancer
tends to overwhelm the synaptic gaps.
Steve U - 27 Dec 2005 22:41 GMT
Ron,
Sounds to me like one of your biopsy specimens was intended, but not
completed somewhere in the process. You already know what you have so
it does not make much difference from the point of view of what to do
next. I just sent a message to another "club" member, that I'll repeat
for you since we have some things in common (don't we all?). Sorry to
hear of your misfortune. I was 50 when I got the bad news about 2 years
ago. It was devastating!  I'm doing great now. Only you can decide what
is best for you. Take your time and read all you can. Most of the guys
here did that, and we came to different conclusions. Most sound happy
with their decisions, and you probably will be too. I had a Robotic
Laparoscopic RP in February of 2004. The surgeon was Dr.Joseph Wagner.
He has done hundreds of robotic procedures.I'm very pleased with him.
You could look at the Hartford Hospitals website www.harthosp.org for
information about the procedure. They have a video of one of the
operations that you can watch on your computer, and the doctors explain
everything. I went there and I am very happy with my results. The
operation took about 3 hours, but seemed like seconds to me. I was able
to go home 20 hours later, and back to work day 6. Now I never leak,
and a most of my erection ability has returned. The worst part was
waiting between the diagnosis and the surgery. I picked surgery because
I think it offers the best chance of a complete cure. PSA is expected
to drop to nothing. You can have the pathologist go over the whole
gland, nor just tiny pieces of it. Also, I wanted to take the hit on
erection and continence at the start and get it over with. If you get
good results from surgery, it lasts. I wanted the robot technique
because I like having the doctor be able to see as well as possible,
and the post op misery is less. All the treatments have potential
benefit and risks. Check them all out.
My PCa stuff is:
age 50 PSA 4.5
Bx showed High Grade PIN
5 months later PSA 5.6
repeat Bx 1/12 cores <1mm gleason 3+3=6 stage T1c
RLRP 2-11-04 at age 50
Favorable path, 5 small foci of 3+3, organ contained
Post op PSAs  <0.1
Steve U
Glassman - 28 Dec 2005 03:18 GMT
> Hello.  Thank goodness for this group.  I've been reading and reading,
> ordered books, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Thank you for any advice.  And thank you for this group!   -Ron

  That's the least of your worries Ron. It's like being a little bit
pregnant. If that sample turned out to be pos or neg..... you'd still be
faced with movin gon to the next step. This is not a death sentence. You're
much more likely to die of something other than PCa based on what I'm
hearing. Keep reading and interviewing good docs to help you make your
treatment choice.

Signature

"Don't get me wrong...  I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Steve Kramer - 30 Dec 2005 02:17 GMT
I do not recall anyone bring it up before, but now that I think back, people
have reported their full biopsy results and I think there are often times
where a core is left blank or "no sample".

The three most likely reasons that I can think of (and I am not a doctor)
would be miss, misfire, hit a vein.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> Hello.  Thank goodness for this group.  I've been reading and reading,
> ordered books, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Thank you for any advice.  And thank you for this group!   -Ron
 
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