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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2006

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PSA 20.0 man 49

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laurel - 20 Dec 2005 02:03 GMT
My husband just got referred to a urologist.  He had a physical a few
weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last
week.  Today he saw his Dr for the followup for his labwork. Results:
 1997  PSA 1.1
 2000  PSA 2.3
 2005  PSA 20.1 + 2nd one "in the 20s"
Needless to say, I've been researching this today.  I know elevated
levels can be caused by other things, but really, all I want to know
right now is do they get that elevated from, say, an infection?  And
wouldn't an infection have symptoms?  Like pain?  His prostate is
normal size, not enlarged at all.  The other thing is how hard is it to
get a good urologist?  Should one assume that any board certified
urologist will be fine for following this up?  And if one should
"shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor?  Thanks for your time.
Steve Jordan - 20 Dec 2005 02:37 GMT
On December 19, laurel wrote, in pertinent part:

>I know elevated...............
>levels can be caused by other things, but really, all I want to know
>right now is do they get that elevated from, say, an infection?  

Yes. Also ejaculation within the 48 hours preceding the blood draw, as
well as a DRE, bicycle riding, anything that can put stress on the prostate.

>And
>wouldn't an infection have symptoms?  Like pain?

Not necessarily.

> His prostate is
>normal size, not enlarged at all.  The other thing is how hard is it to
>get a good urologist?  Should one assume that any board certified
>urologist will be fine for following this up?  

Again, not necessarily.

>And if one should
>"shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor?  Thanks for your time.
>  

Interview prospective medics.

A good place to start is the website of the Prostate Cancer Research
Institute at http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
Which also has a massive amount of information on all possible aspects
of this deadly disease.

To find specialists, or those who can give references to specialists, on
the home page click on Resources, then on the link to "PC Doctors."

Also: purchase and study _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_, subtitled "The
Empowered Patient's Guide" by oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B.
Strum and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior.

Study, Learn, Take Charge!

Knowledge is Life.

Regards,

Steve  J

"We must tailor the treatment to the nature of the disease. We must
listen to the biology."
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
Leonard Evens - 20 Dec 2005 03:08 GMT
> On December 19, laurel wrote, in pertinent part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Empowered Patient's Guide" by oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B.
> Strum and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior.

This gives one point of view about prostate cancer.   You might also try
Patrick Walsh's "Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer" or thye book by
Peter Scardino.  These men are recognized experts on prostate cancer,
and they will give you what is more or less the standard ideas about the
subject among  urologists.

> Study, Learn, Take Charge!
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> listen to the biology."
> -- Stephen B. Strum, MD
Brian - 20 Dec 2005 02:46 GMT
> My husband just got referred to a urologist.  He had a physical a few
> weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last week.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> fine for following this up?  And if one should "shop", how do you decide
> who is a good doctor?  Thanks for your time.

The next step is an 8-12 needle biopsy read by two different labs.

Yes, an infection can cause high PSA numbers.  I'm not a doctor and have
little domain knowledge of what infections can cause what numbers with
basically no symptoms.  The Uro will probably want a urine sample to look
for infection, and may prescribe both an anti-biotic and NSAID (ibuprofen
or naprosyn) to reduce or eliminate any non-cancer reason for an elevated
PSA, and then another PSA reading.
Leonard Evens - 20 Dec 2005 03:04 GMT
> My husband just got referred to a urologist.  He had a physical a few
> weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> urologist will be fine for following this up?  And if one should
> "shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor?  Thanks for your time.

Prostatitis, which means inflammation of the prostate, is not always
accomapnied by pain.  If antibiotics bring the PSA way down, then that
is an indication of prosatitis, but antibiotics often have no effect on
prostatitis.

Even though prostatitis is one possible cause, your husband should have
a biopsy, and I would be surprised if any board certified urologist
didn't recommend one.

Diagnosis of prostate cancer is not terribly subtle in most cases.  In
some cases, the biopsy may miss the cancer and repeated biopsies may be
necessary.   Urologists differ in how many samples they take, and
generally it is better to take more than fewer.  In some cases, cancer
is suspected, but the biopsy misses it, and additional biopsies are
needed.  When to do them can be a trifle subtle.  There also can be some
subtleties in determining the aggressiveness of the tumor, but that is
more a matter of the pathologist than the urologist.  In many cases, it
is recommended that another pathologist give a second opinion.

If your husband does have prostate cancer, and chooses surgery, the
quality of his surgeon may determine his likelihood of having side
effects from the surgery.  But his age is very important also.  For
example, good surgeons can avoid impotence in men under 60 in a very
high percentage of cases, but even the best would have a hard time doing
it in a man over 70.   For such men radiation might be a better choice.

If you let us know where you live, we may be able to recommend some good
urologists in your area.
Glassman - 20 Dec 2005 03:43 GMT
> My husband just got referred to a urologist.  He had a physical a few
> weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> urologist will be fine for following this up?  And if one should
> "shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor?  Thanks for your time.

 Enough has been already answered about the reality that your guy probably
has PCa. His PSA doubles from 1997 to 2000, and then no further test for 5
years? Not good on your part. Too late for hindsight now, it's not like
detection 3 years earlier would guarantee a different outcome anyway. Maybe
you'll dodge this bullet, but I wouldn't bet on it.
 As to your finding a Uro question, you may want to ask your primary for a
referral. Is your insurance in place for all this? Does it have any
restrictions? Next is to find your biggest and best hospital center, and ask
them for their best Uro. You'll want one very experienced,  having done
100's of PCa surgeries.  Guaranteed from the history of no testing in 5
years he'll want a biopsy, rather than wait with antibiotics. Tell us where
you live, and maybe we can help find you a doc as well.

Signature

"Don't get me wrong...  I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Peter Headland - 20 Dec 2005 19:57 GMT
> His PSA doubles from 1997 to 2000, and then no further test for 5 years?

It really is criminal that doctors do not know the significance of PSA
doubling time. Your husband did everything right, Laurel, but the
doctor let you down in 2000 by missing the warning signs. I agree with
JK here - unfortunately, PCa is now a very high probability and a
biopsy is the obvious next step.

Signature

Peter Headland

Glassman - 20 Dec 2005 22:58 GMT
> > His PSA doubles from 1997 to 2000, and then no further test for 5 years?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> JK here - unfortunately, PCa is now a very high probability and a
> biopsy is the obvious next step.

  It's just as likely Peter that he never went back to the Doc for another
exam for 5 years after the 2.3 reading? You can't count on a doc to keep
after you. I think a dentist does a better job, sending out cleaning
appointment postcards every 6 months.

Signature

"Don't get me wrong...  I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Bill - 20 Dec 2005 15:10 GMT
W/ a normal DRE I'd try 30 days on Cipro and then have another PSA. In
fact, that's what I did - but my PSA was 30. I did have PCa but it's
not a given that your husband does. 30 days is not likely to make a
difference. Good luck.

Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA >.6
Memphis
Alan Meyer - 20 Dec 2005 23:23 GMT
> W/ a normal DRE I'd try 30 days on Cipro and then have another PSA. In
> fact, that's what I did - but my PSA was 30. I did have PCa but it's
> not a given that your husband does. 30 days is not likely to make a
> difference. Good luck.

I should think that a biopsy should be scheduled now.  With
a PSA in the 20's, even if it went down some after an anti-biotic
(very rare - most prostatitis is not bacterial anyway), it should
probably still be biopsied.

I wouldn't wait.  Get the biopsy as soon as it can be scheduled,
preferably a 12 needle biopsy.

   Alan
juniper - 08 Jan 2006 20:02 GMT
>  If you let us know where you live, we may be able to recommend some good
urologists in your area.

We live in Prescott, AZ (between Phoenix and Flagstaff).

Thank you all for your responses.  We had the biopsy at Mayo Clinic in
Scottsdale (Phoenix) last Thursday.  Results will take a week.  He lost
count of the biopsies but there were at least 12.  It was excrutiating
for him and they absolutely refused to give him valium or anything
first.  Then when they put the local in, they did not wait but
immediately started taking biopsies.  However, the painfulness did not
decrease over time, as one would expect if the local was slow to act.

When we had sex 2 days later, there was blood.  To be expected, I am
sure.  I feel like we ought to do that more rather than less, to help
the prostate clear out.  But then, it might be an irritant.  Any
comment?   I am appalled at the thought of the damage done by biopsies,
try not to imagine it, and of course agree that it is necessary.

I forgot to tell you all that his dad died of metastatized PC.  Which
is MD knew, along with the tests.  He saw his MD more than once a year
in those 5 years without tests.  When we had the opportunity to change
health insurance I took it because his MD was NOT on the new plan, and
my husband is passive and although he disliked the Dr would not change.
This worked, he saw a new Dr who initiated the series of events that
led to today.  I was frustrated because I have a deep disrespect for
that Dr from personal and anectdotal experience (other people), and
besides the PCa hx, my husband has extensive colon cancer family hx and
that was not being followed up except for one colonoscopy 5 yrs ago.
(The Dr know the PCa hx also but did not follow up that jump in #s.)

Anyway we do have insurance, would like a local (Yavapai County) doctor
if possible to identify a good one.

Probably I won't write until next week when we get some answers.
Thanks again for your responses, it is very supportive.
I.P. Freely - 09 Jan 2006 18:56 GMT
> [biopsies were] excrutiating

Major "bummer", and surprising, since most pts barely notice them even
without anesthetic.

> When we had sex 2 days later, there was blood.
> To be expected.

Now THAT doesn't surprise me. I took weeks to clear up completely.

> I feel like we ought to do that more rather than less, to help
> the prostate clear out.

That's one pickup line I hadn't heard yet. Hey ... whatever works.

> But then, it might be an irritant.  Any comment?

As far as the blood? Don't look. Irrritant? That's HIS choice. It's sort of
like smearing cat food on the terminals of a little 9V battery; the cat may
shake her head between tastes, but keeps coming back for more.

>  I am appalled at the thought of the damage done by biopsies,

I haven't read of any damage; it's all benefit with little risk.

>  dad died of metastatized PC ... MD knew ... no tests ... extensive
> colon cancer family hx ... one colonoscopy 5 yrs ago.
> (The Dr know the PCa hx also but did not follow up that jump in #s.)

The doc should be reported to the state medical board, not just opted put.

I.P.
steve - 13 Jan 2006 23:58 GMT
>> [biopsies were] excrutiating

>Major "bummer", and surprising, since most pts barely notice them even
>without anesthetic.

Still painful, a week later.
BTW, how do you all do the quotes?  I cut and paste, then type in the
">" symbol.  Doesn't seem like I'm doing it right.
Heather - 14 Jan 2006 01:23 GMT
> BTW, how do you all do the quotes?  I cut and paste, then type in the
> ">" symbol.  Doesn't seem like I'm doing it right.

I see you are using Google to post here.  I believe you have to click on
"Show Options" at the top right of the message, and then "Reply".  That
should include the original message with the >>'s.

You are probably just using the generic "reply" command at the bottom of
the post.

Heather
J - 14 Jan 2006 10:55 GMT
> "steve" <zstevez@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You are probably just using the generic "reply" command at the bottom of
> the post.

This shows them http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
steve - 16 Jan 2006 18:24 GMT
> > I see you are using Google to post here.  I believe you have to click on
> > "Show Options" at the top right of the message, and then "Reply".  That
> > should include the original message with the >>'s.
> >
> > You are probably just using the generic "reply" command at the bottom of
> > the post.

 This worked very well, thank you.
juniper - 08 Jan 2006 22:56 GMT
Thank you all for your responses.  I already replied, but it is not
showing up, so I will try again.

Our location is Prescott, Arizona.  A doctor in Yavapai County would be
good.  We are between Phoenix and Flagstaff.  Do others agree w/Steve
about the Prostate Cancer Institute website credible?  They list a
urologist in Cottonwood who does cyrosurgery.  That might be good for a
2nd opinion, maybe treatment.  His name is Alex Horchak.

He did not specifically ask for a PSA, JK, but he saw his doctor at
least once a year in those intervening years.  It was a new doctor who
ordered blood tests, got the 20.1 result, did another.  (We found out
the 2nd one was 26.3, a week later.)

Also, his dad died of prostate cancer 8 years ago. Had metastized to
his brain.  I don't think I mentioned that, so I realize the chances of
PCa are even higher than y'all thought.  Perhaps we should have been
more on it, but my husband is sort of passive.  I forced the doctor
change by changing insurance, after confirming his MD was not on the
new plan.  He did not like his old Dr but would not change.  It is a
balancing act; I do not want to be pushy and run his life, although I
now wish I had been more forceful than suggesting physicals every so
often but letting it go.  What do you do?  Be a bitch, or give someone
space to make their own decisions?  I would rather err on the side of
space.

We went to Mayo Clinic who did a biopsy on Thurs.  They got him in very
quickly.  Will take a week to get results.  I appreciate Mayo's
reputation, but was not impressed w/the doctor (Bui-anyone know of
him?).  He suggested a biopsy in the next month or so, we are the ones
that said "tomorrow."  Did not do any blood tests, etc.  Did a DRE
which confirmed the GP's assessment of a normal prostate.

Thank you all again for your comments.  It is very helpful and
supportive.
juniper - 08 Jan 2006 22:59 GMT
Oh, I forgot.  Do y'all think sex is better (to clear out the blood
from the biopsies) or more of an irritant after the biopsy?

He lost count after 12 needles, so obviously they did more than that.
It was an excrutiating experience.  They refused to give him valium or
anything at all before hand, and immediately began biopsy-ing after the
local shot; however it probably didn't make much difference since each
biopsy was as painful as the others.  Why don't they give something for
pain?
Steve Kramer - 09 Jan 2006 23:47 GMT
Sex is better for _______________________ (fill in the blank).

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> Oh, I forgot.  Do y'all think sex is better (to clear out the blood
> from the biopsies) or more of an irritant after the biopsy?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> biopsy was as painful as the others.  Why don't they give something for
> pain?
Brian - 11 Jan 2006 03:50 GMT
> Oh, I forgot.  Do y'all think sex is better

Yes.
I.P. Freely - 11 Jan 2006 04:15 GMT
juniper asked
>Do y'all think sex is better

Than what?

I.P.
kh - 14 Jan 2006 01:55 GMT
> Oh, I forgot.  Do y'all think sex is better (to clear out the blood
> from the biopsies) or more of an irritant after the biopsy?

Well, it's always good to have more sex than less.    I doubt very
much that there are any bad effects.   So, my vote is, have at it.

> He lost count after 12 needles, so obviously they did more than that.
> It was an excrutiating experience.  They refused to give him valium or
> anything at all before hand, and immediately began biopsy-ing after the
> local shot; however it probably didn't make much difference since each
> biopsy was as painful as the others.  Why don't they give something for
> pain?

This is not the common result.  The biopsy isn't especially painful.  
I had two, a 6 then a 12. The first without any local, the second
with. It feels like someone is snapping a rubberband.  

I didn't like it but did not experience pain.  For me, it was "some
discomfort", as the docs say.

As a reference, it doesn't feel like a needle going into muscle or,
even worse, when the dentist injects the the top of your mouth.  I
know that dentists use the smallest needle possible but it feels
like they are using a meat skewer.

On the other hand, just thinking about what is going on during the
biopsy, brrrrr.    

But to answer your other question, a biopsy is not especially
invasive or harmful.   At least, not compared to surgery.  

For me, none of the procedures was more than "mild discomfort".
That includes the volume study, the MRI, IRMT, Seeding, butt
injection of Lupron, dozen blood tests, CAT scan, Rad-grad
gang-tattoo, and the infamous insertion and removal of the catheter.

As a reference, during the two years since being diagnosed and
treated for cancer, I had a "frozen shoulder" (feels like a rotator
cuff tear but worse) and an api-ectomy by an endo-dontist
(essentially a root canal through the side, the gum and bone, rather
than through the tooth.).
I.P. Freely - 14 Jan 2006 02:41 GMT
> even worse, when the dentist injects the the top of your mouth.  I
> know that dentists use the smallest needle possible but it feels
> like they are using a meat skewer.

Educate your dentist. The RIGHT way is virtually imperceptible. The problem
is that impatient and/or uninformed dentists inject the fluid too fast,
increasing pressure way too much in confined spaces. The cure? Inject it
sloooooooowly so the pressure doesn't spike. Problem solved.

I.P.
juniper - 09 Jan 2006 04:52 GMT
I have tried to reply 3 times; I hope they don't all show up at once.

We live in Prescott, AZ.  Someone in Yavapai County would be nice.  The
prostate_cancer_institute has this doctor about an hour away:  Alex
Horchak.  Anyone know him?  He does cyro so that might be good for a
2nd opinion.

We have pretty good insurance, for ex they cover Mayo Clinic &
hospital.  Thank God for that blessing.  He has disability if he needs
it.

I have ordered books, including Patrick Walsh's.  To tell the truth,
though, I don't feel like I'll ever get on my feet with this.

He had a biopsy on Thurs, results in a week.  We went to Mayo Clinic in
Scottsdale.  He lost count after 12, so I guess they did plenty.
Wasn't too impressed with the Dr, he didn't do any bloodwork or
anything.  Kept reassuring we didn't know it was cancer, good, but
didn't bother to check anything else out.  So either he thought it was
probably cancer and didn't say that, or I don't know what.  He said
other things like cysts or bladder stones could cause a high PSA but
then he didn't check for any of those things.  Does anyone know any of
the Drs at Mayo Scottsdale?

The biopsy was horrible.  They didn't wait after the novacaine or
whatever it is.  Maybe it wouldn't have mattered, there was no
noticable difference in the pain from the first to the last sample.
They refused to give him valium or anything beforehand.  What was that
about?  He's not getting any more biopsies in those circumstances.

->??  What are the options for pain control w/biopsies?
->??  Also, do you think we should be having sex?  It seems like we
should to clear the blood out of his prostate.  But it could hurt it,
since it is already injured?

> It's just as likely Peter that he never went back to the Doc for another
> exam for 5 years after the 2.3 reading
My husband went to his (ex) doctor at least once a year, sometimes
more, in that 5 years.  I don't know if he asked for a PSA, but I think
the Dr had some responsibility here also, esp w/the family hx.  He did
not like his Dr or think much of him but wouldn't change, so I took
advantage of a change in insurance to force a change.  Which is how all
this got discovered now.
juniper - 09 Jan 2006 13:46 GMT
Sorry about all the duplicate postings, apparently they showed up
overnight.
juniper - 15 Jan 2006 02:49 GMT
Thanks to whoever fixed all the duplicates.
 
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