Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2006
PSA 20.0 man 49
|
|
Thread rating:  |
laurel - 20 Dec 2005 02:03 GMT My husband just got referred to a urologist. He had a physical a few weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last week. Today he saw his Dr for the followup for his labwork. Results: 1997 PSA 1.1 2000 PSA 2.3 2005 PSA 20.1 + 2nd one "in the 20s" Needless to say, I've been researching this today. I know elevated levels can be caused by other things, but really, all I want to know right now is do they get that elevated from, say, an infection? And wouldn't an infection have symptoms? Like pain? His prostate is normal size, not enlarged at all. The other thing is how hard is it to get a good urologist? Should one assume that any board certified urologist will be fine for following this up? And if one should "shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor? Thanks for your time.
Steve Jordan - 20 Dec 2005 02:37 GMT On December 19, laurel wrote, in pertinent part:
>I know elevated............... >levels can be caused by other things, but really, all I want to know >right now is do they get that elevated from, say, an infection? Yes. Also ejaculation within the 48 hours preceding the blood draw, as well as a DRE, bicycle riding, anything that can put stress on the prostate.
>And >wouldn't an infection have symptoms? Like pain? Not necessarily.
> His prostate is >normal size, not enlarged at all. The other thing is how hard is it to >get a good urologist? Should one assume that any board certified >urologist will be fine for following this up? Again, not necessarily.
>And if one should >"shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor? Thanks for your time. > Interview prospective medics.
A good place to start is the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html Which also has a massive amount of information on all possible aspects of this deadly disease.
To find specialists, or those who can give references to specialists, on the home page click on Resources, then on the link to "PC Doctors."
Also: purchase and study _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_, subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide" by oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior.
Study, Learn, Take Charge!
Knowledge is Life.
Regards,
Steve J
"We must tailor the treatment to the nature of the disease. We must listen to the biology." -- Stephen B. Strum, MD
Leonard Evens - 20 Dec 2005 03:08 GMT > On December 19, laurel wrote, in pertinent part: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Empowered Patient's Guide" by oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. > Strum and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior. This gives one point of view about prostate cancer. You might also try Patrick Walsh's "Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer" or thye book by Peter Scardino. These men are recognized experts on prostate cancer, and they will give you what is more or less the standard ideas about the subject among urologists.
> Study, Learn, Take Charge! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > listen to the biology." > -- Stephen B. Strum, MD Brian - 20 Dec 2005 02:46 GMT > My husband just got referred to a urologist. He had a physical a few > weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last week. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > fine for following this up? And if one should "shop", how do you decide > who is a good doctor? Thanks for your time. The next step is an 8-12 needle biopsy read by two different labs.
Yes, an infection can cause high PSA numbers. I'm not a doctor and have little domain knowledge of what infections can cause what numbers with basically no symptoms. The Uro will probably want a urine sample to look for infection, and may prescribe both an anti-biotic and NSAID (ibuprofen or naprosyn) to reduce or eliminate any non-cancer reason for an elevated PSA, and then another PSA reading.
Leonard Evens - 20 Dec 2005 03:04 GMT > My husband just got referred to a urologist. He had a physical a few > weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > urologist will be fine for following this up? And if one should > "shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor? Thanks for your time. Prostatitis, which means inflammation of the prostate, is not always accomapnied by pain. If antibiotics bring the PSA way down, then that is an indication of prosatitis, but antibiotics often have no effect on prostatitis.
Even though prostatitis is one possible cause, your husband should have a biopsy, and I would be surprised if any board certified urologist didn't recommend one.
Diagnosis of prostate cancer is not terribly subtle in most cases. In some cases, the biopsy may miss the cancer and repeated biopsies may be necessary. Urologists differ in how many samples they take, and generally it is better to take more than fewer. In some cases, cancer is suspected, but the biopsy misses it, and additional biopsies are needed. When to do them can be a trifle subtle. There also can be some subtleties in determining the aggressiveness of the tumor, but that is more a matter of the pathologist than the urologist. In many cases, it is recommended that another pathologist give a second opinion.
If your husband does have prostate cancer, and chooses surgery, the quality of his surgeon may determine his likelihood of having side effects from the surgery. But his age is very important also. For example, good surgeons can avoid impotence in men under 60 in a very high percentage of cases, but even the best would have a hard time doing it in a man over 70. For such men radiation might be a better choice.
If you let us know where you live, we may be able to recommend some good urologists in your area.
Glassman - 20 Dec 2005 03:43 GMT > My husband just got referred to a urologist. He had a physical a few > weeks ago w/a normal digital rectal exam, and had bloodwork/UA last [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > urologist will be fine for following this up? And if one should > "shop", how do you decide who is a good doctor? Thanks for your time. Enough has been already answered about the reality that your guy probably has PCa. His PSA doubles from 1997 to 2000, and then no further test for 5 years? Not good on your part. Too late for hindsight now, it's not like detection 3 years earlier would guarantee a different outcome anyway. Maybe you'll dodge this bullet, but I wouldn't bet on it. As to your finding a Uro question, you may want to ask your primary for a referral. Is your insurance in place for all this? Does it have any restrictions? Next is to find your biggest and best hospital center, and ask them for their best Uro. You'll want one very experienced, having done 100's of PCa surgeries. Guaranteed from the history of no testing in 5 years he'll want a biopsy, rather than wait with antibiotics. Tell us where you live, and maybe we can help find you a doc as well.
 Signature "Don't get me wrong... I'm SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
Peter Headland - 20 Dec 2005 19:57 GMT > His PSA doubles from 1997 to 2000, and then no further test for 5 years? It really is criminal that doctors do not know the significance of PSA doubling time. Your husband did everything right, Laurel, but the doctor let you down in 2000 by missing the warning signs. I agree with JK here - unfortunately, PCa is now a very high probability and a biopsy is the obvious next step.
 Signature Peter Headland
Glassman - 20 Dec 2005 22:58 GMT > > His PSA doubles from 1997 to 2000, and then no further test for 5 years? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > JK here - unfortunately, PCa is now a very high probability and a > biopsy is the obvious next step. It's just as likely Peter that he never went back to the Doc for another exam for 5 years after the 2.3 reading? You can't count on a doc to keep after you. I think a dentist does a better job, sending out cleaning appointment postcards every 6 months.
 Signature "Don't get me wrong... I'm SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
Bill - 20 Dec 2005 15:10 GMT W/ a normal DRE I'd try 30 days on Cipro and then have another PSA. In fact, that's what I did - but my PSA was 30. I did have PCa but it's not a given that your husband does. 30 days is not likely to make a difference. Good luck.
Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 PSA >.6 Memphis
Alan Meyer - 20 Dec 2005 23:23 GMT > W/ a normal DRE I'd try 30 days on Cipro and then have another PSA. In > fact, that's what I did - but my PSA was 30. I did have PCa but it's > not a given that your husband does. 30 days is not likely to make a > difference. Good luck. I should think that a biopsy should be scheduled now. With a PSA in the 20's, even if it went down some after an anti-biotic (very rare - most prostatitis is not bacterial anyway), it should probably still be biopsied.
I wouldn't wait. Get the biopsy as soon as it can be scheduled, preferably a 12 needle biopsy.
Alan
juniper - 08 Jan 2006 20:02 GMT > If you let us know where you live, we may be able to recommend some good urologists in your area.
We live in Prescott, AZ (between Phoenix and Flagstaff).
Thank you all for your responses. We had the biopsy at Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale (Phoenix) last Thursday. Results will take a week. He lost count of the biopsies but there were at least 12. It was excrutiating for him and they absolutely refused to give him valium or anything first. Then when they put the local in, they did not wait but immediately started taking biopsies. However, the painfulness did not decrease over time, as one would expect if the local was slow to act.
When we had sex 2 days later, there was blood. To be expected, I am sure. I feel like we ought to do that more rather than less, to help the prostate clear out. But then, it might be an irritant. Any comment? I am appalled at the thought of the damage done by biopsies, try not to imagine it, and of course agree that it is necessary.
I forgot to tell you all that his dad died of metastatized PC. Which is MD knew, along with the tests. He saw his MD more than once a year in those 5 years without tests. When we had the opportunity to change health insurance I took it because his MD was NOT on the new plan, and my husband is passive and although he disliked the Dr would not change. This worked, he saw a new Dr who initiated the series of events that led to today. I was frustrated because I have a deep disrespect for that Dr from personal and anectdotal experience (other people), and besides the PCa hx, my husband has extensive colon cancer family hx and that was not being followed up except for one colonoscopy 5 yrs ago. (The Dr know the PCa hx also but did not follow up that jump in #s.)
Anyway we do have insurance, would like a local (Yavapai County) doctor if possible to identify a good one.
Probably I won't write until next week when we get some answers. Thanks again for your responses, it is very supportive.
I.P. Freely - 09 Jan 2006 18:56 GMT > [biopsies were] excrutiating Major "bummer", and surprising, since most pts barely notice them even without anesthetic.
> When we had sex 2 days later, there was blood. > To be expected. Now THAT doesn't surprise me. I took weeks to clear up completely.
> I feel like we ought to do that more rather than less, to help > the prostate clear out. That's one pickup line I hadn't heard yet. Hey ... whatever works.
> But then, it might be an irritant. Any comment? As far as the blood? Don't look. Irrritant? That's HIS choice. It's sort of like smearing cat food on the terminals of a little 9V battery; the cat may shake her head between tastes, but keeps coming back for more.
> I am appalled at the thought of the damage done by biopsies, I haven't read of any damage; it's all benefit with little risk.
> dad died of metastatized PC ... MD knew ... no tests ... extensive > colon cancer family hx ... one colonoscopy 5 yrs ago. > (The Dr know the PCa hx also but did not follow up that jump in #s.) The doc should be reported to the state medical board, not just opted put.
I.P.
steve - 13 Jan 2006 23:58 GMT >> [biopsies were] excrutiating
>Major "bummer", and surprising, since most pts barely notice them even >without anesthetic. Still painful, a week later. BTW, how do you all do the quotes? I cut and paste, then type in the ">" symbol. Doesn't seem like I'm doing it right.
Heather - 14 Jan 2006 01:23 GMT > BTW, how do you all do the quotes? I cut and paste, then type in the > ">" symbol. Doesn't seem like I'm doing it right. I see you are using Google to post here. I believe you have to click on "Show Options" at the top right of the message, and then "Reply". That should include the original message with the >>'s.
You are probably just using the generic "reply" command at the bottom of the post.
Heather
J - 14 Jan 2006 10:55 GMT > "steve" <zstevez@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You are probably just using the generic "reply" command at the bottom of > the post. This shows them http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
steve - 16 Jan 2006 18:24 GMT > > I see you are using Google to post here. I believe you have to click on > > "Show Options" at the top right of the message, and then "Reply". That > > should include the original message with the >>'s. > > > > You are probably just using the generic "reply" command at the bottom of > > the post. This worked very well, thank you.
juniper - 08 Jan 2006 22:56 GMT Thank you all for your responses. I already replied, but it is not showing up, so I will try again.
Our location is Prescott, Arizona. A doctor in Yavapai County would be good. We are between Phoenix and Flagstaff. Do others agree w/Steve about the Prostate Cancer Institute website credible? They list a urologist in Cottonwood who does cyrosurgery. That might be good for a 2nd opinion, maybe treatment. His name is Alex Horchak.
He did not specifically ask for a PSA, JK, but he saw his doctor at least once a year in those intervening years. It was a new doctor who ordered blood tests, got the 20.1 result, did another. (We found out the 2nd one was 26.3, a week later.)
Also, his dad died of prostate cancer 8 years ago. Had metastized to his brain. I don't think I mentioned that, so I realize the chances of PCa are even higher than y'all thought. Perhaps we should have been more on it, but my husband is sort of passive. I forced the doctor change by changing insurance, after confirming his MD was not on the new plan. He did not like his old Dr but would not change. It is a balancing act; I do not want to be pushy and run his life, although I now wish I had been more forceful than suggesting physicals every so often but letting it go. What do you do? Be a bitch, or give someone space to make their own decisions? I would rather err on the side of space.
We went to Mayo Clinic who did a biopsy on Thurs. They got him in very quickly. Will take a week to get results. I appreciate Mayo's reputation, but was not impressed w/the doctor (Bui-anyone know of him?). He suggested a biopsy in the next month or so, we are the ones that said "tomorrow." Did not do any blood tests, etc. Did a DRE which confirmed the GP's assessment of a normal prostate.
Thank you all again for your comments. It is very helpful and supportive.
juniper - 08 Jan 2006 22:59 GMT Oh, I forgot. Do y'all think sex is better (to clear out the blood from the biopsies) or more of an irritant after the biopsy?
He lost count after 12 needles, so obviously they did more than that. It was an excrutiating experience. They refused to give him valium or anything at all before hand, and immediately began biopsy-ing after the local shot; however it probably didn't make much difference since each biopsy was as painful as the others. Why don't they give something for pain?
Steve Kramer - 09 Jan 2006 23:47 GMT Sex is better for _______________________ (fill in the blank).
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
> Oh, I forgot. Do y'all think sex is better (to clear out the blood > from the biopsies) or more of an irritant after the biopsy? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > biopsy was as painful as the others. Why don't they give something for > pain? Brian - 11 Jan 2006 03:50 GMT > Oh, I forgot. Do y'all think sex is better Yes.
I.P. Freely - 11 Jan 2006 04:15 GMT juniper asked
>Do y'all think sex is better Than what?
I.P.
kh - 14 Jan 2006 01:55 GMT > Oh, I forgot. Do y'all think sex is better (to clear out the blood > from the biopsies) or more of an irritant after the biopsy? Well, it's always good to have more sex than less. I doubt very much that there are any bad effects. So, my vote is, have at it.
> He lost count after 12 needles, so obviously they did more than that. > It was an excrutiating experience. They refused to give him valium or > anything at all before hand, and immediately began biopsy-ing after the > local shot; however it probably didn't make much difference since each > biopsy was as painful as the others. Why don't they give something for > pain? This is not the common result. The biopsy isn't especially painful. I had two, a 6 then a 12. The first without any local, the second with. It feels like someone is snapping a rubberband.
I didn't like it but did not experience pain. For me, it was "some discomfort", as the docs say.
As a reference, it doesn't feel like a needle going into muscle or, even worse, when the dentist injects the the top of your mouth. I know that dentists use the smallest needle possible but it feels like they are using a meat skewer.
On the other hand, just thinking about what is going on during the biopsy, brrrrr.
But to answer your other question, a biopsy is not especially invasive or harmful. At least, not compared to surgery.
For me, none of the procedures was more than "mild discomfort". That includes the volume study, the MRI, IRMT, Seeding, butt injection of Lupron, dozen blood tests, CAT scan, Rad-grad gang-tattoo, and the infamous insertion and removal of the catheter.
As a reference, during the two years since being diagnosed and treated for cancer, I had a "frozen shoulder" (feels like a rotator cuff tear but worse) and an api-ectomy by an endo-dontist (essentially a root canal through the side, the gum and bone, rather than through the tooth.).
I.P. Freely - 14 Jan 2006 02:41 GMT > even worse, when the dentist injects the the top of your mouth. I > know that dentists use the smallest needle possible but it feels > like they are using a meat skewer. Educate your dentist. The RIGHT way is virtually imperceptible. The problem is that impatient and/or uninformed dentists inject the fluid too fast, increasing pressure way too much in confined spaces. The cure? Inject it sloooooooowly so the pressure doesn't spike. Problem solved.
I.P.
juniper - 09 Jan 2006 04:52 GMT I have tried to reply 3 times; I hope they don't all show up at once.
We live in Prescott, AZ. Someone in Yavapai County would be nice. The prostate_cancer_institute has this doctor about an hour away: Alex Horchak. Anyone know him? He does cyro so that might be good for a 2nd opinion.
We have pretty good insurance, for ex they cover Mayo Clinic & hospital. Thank God for that blessing. He has disability if he needs it.
I have ordered books, including Patrick Walsh's. To tell the truth, though, I don't feel like I'll ever get on my feet with this.
He had a biopsy on Thurs, results in a week. We went to Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale. He lost count after 12, so I guess they did plenty. Wasn't too impressed with the Dr, he didn't do any bloodwork or anything. Kept reassuring we didn't know it was cancer, good, but didn't bother to check anything else out. So either he thought it was probably cancer and didn't say that, or I don't know what. He said other things like cysts or bladder stones could cause a high PSA but then he didn't check for any of those things. Does anyone know any of the Drs at Mayo Scottsdale?
The biopsy was horrible. They didn't wait after the novacaine or whatever it is. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered, there was no noticable difference in the pain from the first to the last sample. They refused to give him valium or anything beforehand. What was that about? He's not getting any more biopsies in those circumstances.
->?? What are the options for pain control w/biopsies? ->?? Also, do you think we should be having sex? It seems like we should to clear the blood out of his prostate. But it could hurt it, since it is already injured?
> It's just as likely Peter that he never went back to the Doc for another > exam for 5 years after the 2.3 reading My husband went to his (ex) doctor at least once a year, sometimes more, in that 5 years. I don't know if he asked for a PSA, but I think the Dr had some responsibility here also, esp w/the family hx. He did not like his Dr or think much of him but wouldn't change, so I took advantage of a change in insurance to force a change. Which is how all this got discovered now.
juniper - 09 Jan 2006 13:46 GMT Sorry about all the duplicate postings, apparently they showed up overnight.
juniper - 15 Jan 2006 02:49 GMT Thanks to whoever fixed all the duplicates.
|
|
|