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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2005

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Aside from chocolate

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Stavros - 16 Dec 2005 15:23 GMT
I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
especially with chocolate:  should we be on a low fat diet or doesn't it
matter?
Signature

July 2004 DX Pca, age 75  PSA 26.5 Gleason 7 (4+3) Stage T2a  Apparently
confined to a single nodule in the prostate.
August 2004  ADT First injection (2 drugs-Lupron + ?)
Dec 2004   ADT Second injection PSA 4
April 2005  PSA 2.6
May 2005  HBRT  33 treatments
July PSA 2.9, went up instead of down, possibly because the effects of ADT
are still there and the RT hasn't fully kicked in, and a somewhat elevated
PSA is normal for me because of my BPH
October 2005  PSA 2.63..

Leonard Evens - 16 Dec 2005 17:11 GMT
> I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
> clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
> especially with chocolate:  should we be on a low fat diet or doesn't it
> matter?

I think it is pretty well established that you can control blood fat
levels by means of a low fat diet.  That is certainly true in my case.
My total cholesterol had risen above 200 in my thirties, when I first
tried to control it with diet.  First I limited my saturated fats, and
that did some good, but in my 50s I went on a low total fat diet.  My
total cholesterol has been as low as 130.   More recently I've slightly
increased my fat intake, concentrating on monosaturated fats such as
olve oil, but still my total fat intake is very low compared to the
average.  My LDL value is very low also.   I'm 72, and I have no
evidence of heart disease, and I would like to keep it that way.  And,
of course, I don't need to take cholesterol lowering drugs.

I believe my experience is borne out by medical research.  Of course,
even people with low cholesterol levels have heart disease and even
arteriosclerosis.   But on the average they do better than those who
don't limit fat intake.

It is interesting that one's body adapts to a low fat diet pretty
quickly.  Now, when I eat a fatty meal, I feel sick afterwards, and I
don't really miss the fat.
Stavros - 16 Dec 2005 20:31 GMT
Thanks for your reply.  But actually (I should have made this clear, sorry),
I was asking about diet fat for those with PCa,

>> I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
>> clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Now, when I eat a fatty meal, I feel sick afterwards, and I don't really
> miss the fat.
Glassman - 17 Dec 2005 06:07 GMT
> > I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
> > clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think it is pretty well established that you can control blood fat
> levels by means of a low fat diet.  That is certainly true in my case.

   I have to strongly disagree Leonard.  My guess is that there's also
other changes in your diet, plus exercise that made a bigger impact on your
numbers.  It's also well established that dietary fat has little or nothing
to do with serum cholesterol.  We've been down this road before, but let me
add that I've been eating a high fat, low carb diet for over 7 years now,
and my numbers have never been better. Try this link:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html

  My body uses fat for fuel instead of carbs.  Read Dr. Atkins book, it
works. I know I'm not going to change the way a 70 year old man in good
health will eat, but I just want you to know that your conclusions are not
true for all.  Apparently there are many more factors, genetics being the
biggest, in the way our numbers turn out. Sorry to confuse you Stavros. Go
eat a steak, but not the fries.

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"Don't get me wrong...  I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
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www.sinrodstudios.com
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www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

I. P. Freely - 17 Dec 2005 22:07 GMT
> It's also well established that dietary fat has little or nothing
> to do with serum cholesterol.

Tell that to every university and research hospital on the planet.

> I've been eating a high fat, low carb diet for over 7 years now,
> and my numbers have never been better.

>  Apparently there are many more factors, genetics being the
> biggest, in the way our numbers turn out.

Now THAT I buy, for some people, including me and my wife. She's morbidly
obese, and has ridiculously healthy lipid numbers. My muscles have muscles,
and I have to take a statin to keep my lipids in healthy ranges even when
I'm getting 30-50 hours of hard exercise every week and am not eating any
junk food.

I.P.
I. P. Freely - 17 Dec 2005 21:47 GMT
> you can control blood fat levels by means of a low fat diet

> It is interesting that one's body adapts to a low fat diet pretty quickly.
> Now, when I eat a fatty meal, I feel sick afterwards, and I don't really
> miss the fat.

Hear, hear. I gag on the whole milk I grew up on, FAR prefer fat-free fake
whipped cream to the real thing, and enjoy only ounces of steak.

But EXCESS (very important word) sugar can also drive our blood lipids in
the wrong direction: triglycerides up, LDL up, HDL down, regardless of fat
intake. "Sugarholics" often present that classic lipid profile, which is
suspected as a significant precursor to heart disease.

I.P.
Dennis D - 16 Dec 2005 19:27 GMT
>I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
>clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
>especially with chocolate:  should we be on a low fat diet or doesn't it
>matter?

There have been published clinical studies indicating that a low fat
diet can control the growth of prostate cancer.

In a study carried out at UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center (Feb, 2004
http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/0001492/63/,
"Laboratory mice with advanced human prostate cancer that were
deprived of the hormone testosterone were fed a diet low in
polyunsaturated fats and remained in remission about twice as long as
mice fed a diet with a much higher fat content, the study found. The
mice on the low-fat diet also lived nearly twice as long as those on
the high-fat diet."

A recent study caried out by Dr. Dean Ornish and co-workers, tracked
93 men with nonagressive prostate cancer (on watchful waiting).  These
men were divided into two groups:  one on a ultra low fat diet (10% of
total calorie intake), the other with average daily fat consumption.
After one year, the group on low fat experienced a 4% decline in PSA,
the other group experienced a 6% increase in PSA levels.
(August 2005,
http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/0001492/63/ )

There is also the legendary story of Michael Milken who in 1993, at
age 46, was diagnosed with prostate cancer (PSA 24, Gleason 9, spread
to lymph nodes).  Along with radiation and hormone therapy (as I
recall) he changed to a vegetarian, soy-based ultra low fat diet (no
more than 10 grams a day), including other modalities such as
meditation and massage.  He has had undetectable PSA levels since
then.

I personally consume no more than 30 gram of fat per day in a non-red
meat diet (very low dairy, with vitamins and other supplements) in an
effort to prevent recurrence of PCa.....  RRP in Aug 2003.

Dennis

Stavros - 16 Dec 2005 20:36 GMT
Thanks so much.  This is what I thought.  I have been keeping my fat
consumption fairly low (but could do better), and like IP if I am at a
restaurant I do eat unlike I do at home..

>>I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
>>clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Dennis
Leonard Evens - 16 Dec 2005 20:53 GMT
> Thanks so much.  This is what I thought.  I have been keeping my fat
> consumption fairly low (but could do better), and like IP if I am at a
> restaurant I do eat unlike I do at home..

Unfortunately, almost all restuarants specialize in fat in one form or
another.  That is what most customers expect.

>>>I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
>>>clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>>
>>Dennis
I. P. Freely - 17 Dec 2005 22:01 GMT
> Unfortunately, almost all restuarants specialize in fat in one form or
> another.  That is what most customers expect.

Again . . . hear, hear! When eating in restaurants I try to order pieces of
recognizable animals and plants, as opposed to casseroles or heaps or bowls
of . . . stuff. That way I can see, identify, and largely avoid discrete
fat. "Stuff" can hide all SORTS of huge quantities of sat fats. The butter
bowl, cream sauce, gravy made from meat drippings, etc.are set aside as
though they were arsenic, so I know what I'm eating. That way I can make an
intelligent decision based on several factors whether to order that creme
brule cheescake malted milk a la mode sundae -- with nuts -- after my meal.

I.P.
I. P. Freely - 17 Dec 2005 21:40 GMT
"Stavros" asked
>I can't believe I have been so wrong about fat in the diet.  Just for
>clarity (mine), let me ask this simple question, having nothing to do
>especially with chocolate:  should we be on a low fat diet or doesn't it
>matter?

Low SAT (and trans) fat.
Even Pritikin has come around on that, and that's for heart patients.
Additionaly, the Atkins Machine quietly admitted recently that we should eat
much less sat fat that they originally advocated.

I.P.
 
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