Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2005
Someone please explain Jules Reichel article for me
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Dick Smith - 17 Nov 2005 00:48 GMT Sspecifically in his "The Rate of recurrence in the PSA-Era was too high" where does he get his numbers from? Do they appear accuate?
Article: In general, the New Era strategy for prostate cancer is to screen and possibly treat men earlier when the cancer is limited and weak.
The goal is to keep a patient's life as it was before the diagnosis and ensuing treatment.
The dramatic reduction in the rates of recurrence from treatment of this extremely dangerous disease, and the avoidance of the great harm to quality of life that previously came with the use of long-term hormonal therapies and experimental drugs, has made the New Era of treatment the most prudent choice for patients.
The emphasis on early diagnosis and treatment in the New Era has also opened up the realistic hope for much simpler treatment of the earliest prostate cancer cells that are called high grade PIN (HGPIN).
While credible doctors have concerns regarding the potential risk of overtreatment caused by earlier diagnosis, that concern should only motivate us to be careful in our medical choices rather than to bypass the new opportunities for best treatment.
A New and Different Strategy
The PSA-Era provided nerve-sparing surgery, and PSA screening (blood test) thresholds set at 4.0ng/ml combined with DRE (Digital Rectal Exam) testing, to detect prostate cancer when it could still be treated with curable intent.
Over the last decade, if there was recurrence after treatment, it was almost universally treated with hormonal therapies.
The New Era of treatment currently provides for:
Earlier screening beginning at age 40 (or 35 in some cases); A PSA screening threshold of 2.5ng/ml with the potential of early biopsy using 12 or more cores; Emphasis on improved diagnostic techniques especially including the use of PSA velocity and doubling time to guide the necessity for and the type of treatment; Emphasis on viewing surgery and follow-up high dosage radiation therapy (usually IMRT at dosage levels over 70Gy), when required, as a compatible pair of processes rather than only as opposing options; Non-invasive treatment of patients with cancer-precursor high grade PIN disease, when appropriate. Many men at age 50 have PIN. The presence of "high grade" PIN (HGPIN) implies later cancer in almost half of men. (This work is in-progress)
The decline in the death rates in the PSA-Era was NOT good enough
In 2005, 232,090 men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer, 30,350 will die of it, and about 1.6 million men are alive who have had a positive diagnosis.
The total number of men dying each year from prostate cancer has remained about constant over the last decade.
The "age-adjusted" death rate has been declining at a steady rate of 4% per year since 1994. (Age-adjusted means that 4% more men per year would have died had the treatments not been available.) PSA-Era screening and treatment are given credit for this major achievement.
A death rate decline of 4% per year was too low to persuade all primary care doctors and patients to follow the standard screening guidelines. (CAA Journal for Clinicians 2005)
About 50% of men with health insurance under 65 years of age were screened last year. Above age 65, screening rates were about 60%. Lack of health insurance or a fixed provider cause large decreases in screening rates: usually to about 25%. It has, unfortunately, often become a patient responsibility to ask for screening and for the latest types of medical care. While education about screening is important, the effectiveness of treatment must also be improved.
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The Rate of recurrence in the PSA-Era was too high
Recurrence over the 10 years after treatment was much too frequent. On average:
For Low-risk patients: normally PSA= 10ng/ml or less, and Gleason Score= 6 or less, there was 20% recurrence. Medium-risk patients: normally PSA between 10 and 20ng/ml, or Gleason Score = 7, there was 50% recurrence. High-risk patients: normally PSA greater than 20ng/ml, or Gleason Score 8-10, there was 66% recurrence. Overall, the average recurrence rate was about 1/3 of the patients over 10 years, and this statistic is not nearly adequate, especially for a man who typically has a potential 30-year lifespan ahead of him.
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Recurrence is feared by all patients
Recurrence is only an arbitrary marker of the rise in PSA after treatment.
The worrisome aspect of recurrence is that it is related to the time until metastasis (spread of the cancer), and metastasis usually implies suffering and death.
Almost all prostate cancer patients have a Gleason Score (level of aggressiveness) between 5 and 10. The Johns Hopkins result, 2003, were that:
For the Gleason Score 5-7 patients, the probability of metastasis varied between 16 and 25% at 7 years; and for the Gleason Score 8-10 patients, the probability of metastasis varied between 43% and 93% at 7 years after recurrence.
For those men who metastasized (usually those with more rapidly rising PSA), the average time to metastasis was about 7.5 years after treatment unless other intervening treatment is successful, and the average time from metastasis to death was 6.5 years. Prostate cancer can greatly shorten life, and recurrence is its marker for trouble.
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Hormonal and other drugs for recurrence
The "gold standard" of care for men with recurrence after surgery or radiation therapy (i.e. men with advanced disease) has been hormonal (or androgen deprivation) therapy (ADT).
The intent is to greatly slow down the growth of cancerous cells by depriving the man of testosterone. Both injection of drugs like Lupron and use of pills such as Casodex become part of a plan for stopping the rise of PSA.
For many men use of ADT is effective. The problems are that ADT has a set of side effects that many men view as unacceptably brutal, and even if they are endured, in time, the cancer is likely to recur without testosterone and the ADT will no longer work.
One alternative has been to use ADT temporarily to drive the PSA level down to undetectable levels and then let the body recover. Some drug is often used to sustain this "OFF" cycle as long as possible, and ADT is only used again when the PSA rises to some level (PSA=4 is used by Catalona).
This therapy is called intermittent androgen deprivation (IAD).
A new problem for IAD is that the process for picking one or more of the several hundred drugs that are in development or early use that might be suitable for cancer suppression during the OFF cycle, has not been established. Availability of these drugs is also often an issue.
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The New-Era offers something better
The lowering of the PSA screening threshold to 2.5 does seem to help.
Dr. Patrick Walsh of Johns Hopkins published his 10-year results in the PSA region 0-4ng/ml:
Of patients with Gleason Scores of 5-7, recurrence was between only 1 and 18 %. Compare this to 20-50% recurrence for low-to-medium risk patients, above. Of patients with Gleason Scores of 8-10, recurrence was only 37%. Compare this to 66% recurrence for high-risk patients, above. Dr. Catalona described cooperative use of adjuvant and salvage high-dosage radiation therapy in a prior issue of Quest. The recurrent patients usually had about an 80% chance of ending the recurrence with those follow-up treatments.
In the new era using both therapies together:
Of patients with Gleason scores of 5-7: 96% or better, non-recurrence Of patients with Gleason scores of 8-10: 80-93% non-recurrence These results are with limited or no use of difficult hormonal therapies.
While these results require further validation, at such high levels of outcome success, the best choice for a patient to follow is the New-Era approach for screening and treatment; and it's not even a close call.
http://www.drcatalona.com/quest/Spring05/quest_spring05_6.asp
Leonard Evens - 17 Nov 2005 14:41 GMT > Sspecifically in his "The Rate of recurrence in the PSA-Era was too > high" where does he get his numbers from? Do they appear accuate? [quoted text clipped - 180 lines] > > http://www.drcatalona.com/quest/Spring05/quest_spring05_6.asp Jules Reichel is not a physician, but he does try to be informed. Still I think in this case he wasn't very clear. If he is saying anything it is that more screening and lowering the PSA threshhold or using PSA velocity as an indication for biopsy may make a difference. If you look, he gives high figures for recurrence in the PSA era in one part of the article and then reports Walsh's much more optimistic recurrence estimates later. He doesn't really address the issue of why there should be a difference except to say that "new era" techniques seem to make a difference, but if you look carefully, you see it might have something to do with PSA levels at diagnosis. From what I've read, I think the explanation is that (a) it has taken some time for screening to take hold, and (b) treatment has improved. The basic technique, following Walsh's innovations, hasn't changed very much, but there are many more urologists trained in that tehnique. Radiation therapy has improved by better focusing allowing increased doses.
Alan Meyer - 17 Nov 2005 16:25 GMT > ... If you > look, he gives high figures for recurrence in the PSA era in one part of > the article and then reports Walsh's much more optimistic recurrence > estimates later. > ... I have never known what to make of the differences in success rates reported by studies at different institutions.
Walsh's reports show the highest success rates of anyone. One possible reason for this is that he and his surgery department may be the best surgeons around and the skill of the surgeon may be a significant factor in success.
However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that he thinks are highly curable - referring the higher risk patients elsewhere.
> ... He doesn't really address the issue of why there > should be a difference except to say that "new era" techniques seem to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > many more urologists trained in that tehnique. Radiation therapy has > improved by better focusing allowing increased doses. Exactly right. It's not clear that the "new era" techniques, whatever that means, explain the difference between Walsh's numbers and the numbers reported earlier in the article.
Alan
ron - 17 Nov 2005 17:16 GMT Alan Meyer wrote...snip...
> However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that > he thinks are highly curable - referring the higher risk patients > elsewhere. Hi Alan...Walsh may be selective in whatever surgeries he perfoms nowadays, but I don't think that used to be the case. In Walsh's paper wher he presents his 10-year nomogram for RP results at Hopkins, Table I shows the following characteristics of the men included in the study:
Organ confined 1,050 (50) Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score less than 7, neg. surgical margins 310 (15) Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score less than 7, pos. surgical margins 96 (5) Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score 7 or greater, neg. surgical margins 306 (15) Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score 7 or greater, pos. surgical margins 119 (6) Seminal vesicle involvement, neg. lymph nodes 98 (4) Micrometastases to pelvic lymph nodes 112 (5)
Only half of the men were even organ-confined, almost 10% had either SV involvement or LN mets. He wasn't cherry picking back in the day...Best wishes and good health, Ron
Alan Meyer - 17 Nov 2005 19:14 GMT > Alan Meyer wrote...snip... > > However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > involvement or LN mets. He wasn't cherry picking back in the > day...Best wishes and good health, Ron I'm glad to see that. It's nice to know that one of our heroes is as deserving of our praise as we thought him to be.
I get the impression that Dr. Walsh and his department are practicing medicine the way it should be practiced. I wonder how many other surgeons keep statistics like these or have any concept of how important they are.
I heard a talk about antibiotics at NIH this week (I work there as a computer programmer.) One of the researchers said that 50% of all prescriptions for antibiotics are written for people who have viral diseases - they can't benefit and will suffer the side effects of the antibiotics for no reason whatever. Most physicians don't even bother to perform tests that would tell them whether an infection is bacterial or not. They just try the drug to see if it helps.
He also said that it was difficult for NIH to convince practicing clinicians of the need for thorough testing of subjects before enrolling them in clinical trials. He found one trial where it turned out that 2/3 of the enrolled patients turned out upon testing _not_ to have the disease for which the new drug was on trial.
Steve Jordan is always complaining that we don't do enough medical testing, and I sometimes think he's going overboard. But if more doctors did what Steve wants them to do, and what Dr. Walsh apparently does, we'd have better treatment outcomes.
Alan
Steve Jordan - 17 Nov 2005 19:55 GMT On November 17, Alan Meyer wrote, in pertinent part:
> Steve Jordan is always complaining that we don't do enough > medical testing, and I sometimes think he's going overboard. Well, ackshully it's me citing, and/or basing my rants upon, what medics say. Especially Strum, who is pretty nearly contemptuous of medics who do not perform enough staging tests.
> But if more doctors did what Steve wants them to do, and what > Dr. Walsh apparently does, we'd have better treatment > outcomes. There is absolutely no doubt of that. Do the tests early on so that therapy can be guided by the information gained. When I read here and elsewhere about medics refusing to do tests requested by patients who have educated themselves it drives me bonkers.
Knowledge is life.
Regards,
Steve J
"What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget 'what the stars foretell,' avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable 'verdict of history' -- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!" --Lazarus Long
I. P. Freely - 17 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT > Well, ackshully it's me citing, and/or basing my rants upon, what medics > say. Especially Strum Yet you bash me for doing exactly that.
I'll delete the rest of what I'd LIKE to say, you [snip].
I.P.
Steve Jordan - 18 Nov 2005 00:47 GMT On November 17, the irrational I. P. Freely responded to me:
>>Well, ackshully it's me citing, and/or basing my rants upon, what medics >>say. Especially Strum > > Yet you bash me for doing exactly that. Sonny, I haven't even *BEGUN* to bash. Or to flame.
> I'll delete the rest of what I'd LIKE to say, you [snip]. I will say this for IP, he can be consistently annoying. Something like a puppy snapping at one's heels.
Well, I'll try to ignore him henceforward at best I can...
If he has deliberately set out to make an implacable enemy, he is making great progress.
Regards,
Steve J
"You can fool some of the people some of the time, and those are the ones you need to concentrate on." --Christopher Buckley
judamd@aol.com - 17 Nov 2005 20:58 GMT In defense of the physicians who "don't bother," many of them are evaluated according to patient responses to questionaires. The patient who storms out of the doctor's office because he couldn't get an antibiotic for his cold rarely provides a positive review of his doctor. So, thanks to the ignorance of the many, everyone pays the price with higher medical costs and, in this example, bacteria immune to existing medications. The docs aren't innocent in these matter either. How about the possibility of greater reimbursement from medicare/insurances if the patient is diagnosed with "suspected sinus infection - prescribed antibiotic" instead of "routine office visit, just a cold - no treatment". Dave Perry
Leonard Evens - 17 Nov 2005 20:14 GMT >>... If you >>look, he gives high figures for recurrence in the PSA era in one part of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > be the best surgeons around and the skill of the surgeon may be > a significant factor in success. Actually, in my case at least, the Sloan Kettering nomogram gives a slightly better estimate for non-recurrence. The Sloan Kettering nomogram has been tested and confirmed at several high quality medical centers, not all of them in the US. I think the original data was from Baylor, but I could be wrong.
It should be noted that nomograms, from Walsh or Sloan-Kettering, are predictions based on long term studies but they are not simply a restatement of the data. It seems clear that early detection has improved non-recurrence rates, but the studies include many cases from before the PSA era or early in it. In addition, Walsh seems to have detected an improvement over time which is not completely attributable to any other factor. In any event, the predictions for the future incorporate the improvement over time detected in the data.
> However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that > he thinks are highly curable - referring the higher risk patients [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Alan Dick Smith - 17 Nov 2005 21:22 GMT This statement stood out for me: "Emphasis on viewing surgery and follow-up high dosage radiation therapy (usually IMRT at dosage levels over 70Gy), when required, as a compatible pair of processes rather than only as opposing options;"
It sounds like Mr Reichel is in favor of applying IMRT subsequently to an RRP when deemed necessary. The question is, what is considered necessary? Also I'm assuming IMRT was choosen due to a decrease of side effects?
I. P. Freely - 17 Nov 2005 23:18 GMT > I'm assuming IMRT was choosen due to a decrease of side effects? That would be an invalid assumption, worthy of much more research. The comparisons are quite complex, varying greatly among different cases of cancer, different patients, different priorities, different onset and abatement times, etc.
I.P.
Steve Jordan - 17 Nov 2005 23:22 GMT > This statement stood out for me: > "Emphasis on viewing surgery and follow-up high dosage radiation [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > necessary? Also I'm assuming IMRT was choosen due to a decrease of side > effects? First, I doubt that, at least in the USofA, any mode of EBRT other than IMRT would be in use.
I did not undergo RP, but might be able to shed some light on the subject. My primary tx was cryosurgery, which utterly failed to accomplish its advertised purpose.
I then enlisted for IMRT. The total dose was 76 Gy, and 40-some Gy were applied to seminal vesicles and pelvic lymph nodes. Radiation tx was completed in October, 2004. I also began a regimen of ADT which continues to this day.
I was told by Dr. Strum that my cancer was systemic.
So far, thank Whoever is cranking, the tx has succeeded. As I recently posted, my Gleason 9 tumor has not metastasized.
So far as necessity for post-RP rad therapy is concerned, it is my understanding that it is resorted to when there is evidence that the cancer penetrated the capsule of the prostate gland but the medics think that it's only in the pelvic nodes and seminal vesicles. It does seem to me that trying to judge (or guess) whether the cancer is locally spread and confined to the pelvic region or systemic, even metastatic, is risky business. And it is our lives that are at risk.
There are tests, some of them sneered at by ignorant uros, that can help one to make an educated judgment. These are outlined in the life-saving book _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide" by Stephen B. Strum MD, oncologist specializing in PCa, and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior.
They can also be found on the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html along with much authoritative and objective information.
Look for such things as PAP, AP, CGA, and more. Each is a piece of the puzzle and will be of tremendous help in understanding the patient's particular disease (and they're all to some extent different), thereby providing intelligence on the strength and dispositions of the enemy.
Make no mistake: this is a war with a merciless enemy. Study, Learn and Take Charge! of your tx.
Knowledge is life.
Regards,
Steve J
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." --Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
I. P. Freely - 18 Nov 2005 01:26 GMT "Steve Jordan" >
> I was told by Dr. Strum that my cancer was systemic. > my Gleason 9 tumor has not metastasized. What's the difference?
> There are tests, some of them sneered at by ignorant uros, that can help > one to make an educated judgment. Look for such things as PAP, AP, CGA, > and more. Each is a piece of the puzzle and will be of tremendous help in > understanding the patient's particular disease (and they're all to some > extent different), thereby providing intelligence on the strength and > dispositions of the enemy. But a big trial summarized here just this week implied -- almost stated -- that these tests paled compared to PSA kinetics, at least to the extent published. Who are we to believe?
I.P.
Gogarty - 18 Nov 2005 12:27 GMT Praise of Dr. Walsh is not universal.
It isn't just who does the surgery but which intern sews you up after Dr. Walsh has washed his hands.
A good friend of mine had his surgery at Johns Hopkins, Dr. Walsh presiding. But the finishing up was so badly done he had to go to another hospital a year later for corrective surgery. The basic operation was a success. Six years later no PSA but bad scars.
Alex - 18 Nov 2005 19:23 GMT Another issue is whether Dr. Walsh and others who claim very high success rates deliberately choose to accept patients who are in otherwise good health and have a high likelihood of of a good outcome, and avoid those who are at greater risk and might therefore lower the doctor's stats.
Alex
> Praise of Dr. Walsh is not universal. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > year later for corrective surgery. The basic operation was a success. Six > years later no PSA but bad scars. ron - 18 Nov 2005 20:17 GMT > Another issue is whether Dr. Walsh and others who claim very high success > rates deliberately choose to accept patients who are in otherwise good > health and have a high likelihood of of a good outcome, and avoid those who > are at greater risk and might therefore lower the doctor's stats. Please read post #4 above.
Alex - 18 Nov 2005 22:04 GMT >> Another issue is whether Dr. Walsh and others who claim very high success >> rates deliberately choose to accept patients who are in otherwise good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Please read post #4 above. Sorry, I missed that. Thanks! Back up on the pedestal he goes. (g)
Alex
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