Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Someone please explain Jules Reichel article for me

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Dick Smith - 17 Nov 2005 00:48 GMT
Sspecifically in his "The Rate of recurrence in the PSA-Era was too
high" where does he get his numbers from? Do they appear accuate?

Article:
In general, the New Era strategy for prostate cancer is to screen and
possibly treat men earlier when the cancer is limited and weak.

The goal is to keep a patient's life as it was before the diagnosis
and ensuing treatment.

The dramatic reduction in the rates of recurrence from treatment of
this extremely dangerous disease, and the avoidance of the great harm
to quality of life that previously came with the use of long-term
hormonal therapies and experimental drugs, has made the New Era of
treatment the most prudent choice for patients.

The emphasis on early diagnosis and treatment in the New Era has also
opened up the realistic hope for much simpler treatment of the earliest
prostate cancer cells that are called high grade PIN (HGPIN).

While credible doctors have concerns regarding the potential risk of
overtreatment caused by earlier diagnosis, that concern should only
motivate us to be careful in our medical choices rather than to bypass
the new opportunities for best treatment.

A New and Different Strategy

The PSA-Era provided nerve-sparing surgery, and PSA screening (blood
test) thresholds set at 4.0ng/ml combined with DRE (Digital Rectal
Exam) testing, to detect prostate cancer when it could still be treated
with curable intent.

Over the last decade, if there was recurrence after treatment, it was
almost universally treated with hormonal therapies.

The New Era of treatment currently provides for:

Earlier screening beginning at age 40 (or 35 in some cases);
A PSA screening threshold of 2.5ng/ml with the potential of early
biopsy using 12 or more cores;
Emphasis on improved diagnostic techniques especially including the use
of PSA velocity and doubling time to guide the necessity for and the
type of treatment;
Emphasis on viewing surgery and follow-up high dosage radiation therapy
(usually IMRT at dosage levels over 70Gy), when required, as a
compatible pair of processes rather than only as opposing options;
Non-invasive treatment of patients with cancer-precursor high grade PIN
disease, when appropriate. Many men at age 50 have PIN. The presence of
"high grade" PIN (HGPIN) implies later cancer in almost half of
men. (This work is in-progress)

The decline in the death rates in the PSA-Era was NOT good enough

In 2005, 232,090 men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer, 30,350
will die of it, and about 1.6 million men are alive who have had a
positive diagnosis.

The total number of men dying each year from prostate cancer has
remained about constant over the last decade.

The "age-adjusted" death rate has been declining at a steady rate
of 4% per year since 1994. (Age-adjusted means that 4% more men per
year would have died had the treatments not been available.) PSA-Era
screening and treatment are given credit for this major achievement.

A death rate decline of 4% per year was too low to persuade all primary
care doctors and patients to follow the standard screening guidelines.
(CAA Journal for Clinicians 2005)

About 50% of men with health insurance under 65 years of age were
screened last year.
Above age 65, screening rates were about 60%.
Lack of health insurance or a fixed provider cause large decreases in
screening rates: usually to about 25%.
It has, unfortunately, often become a patient responsibility to ask for
screening and for the latest types of medical care. While education
about screening is important, the effectiveness of treatment must also
be improved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Rate of recurrence in the PSA-Era was too high

Recurrence over the 10 years after treatment was much too frequent. On
average:

For Low-risk patients: normally PSA= 10ng/ml or less, and Gleason
Score= 6 or less, there was 20% recurrence.
Medium-risk patients: normally PSA between 10 and 20ng/ml, or Gleason
Score = 7, there was 50% recurrence.
High-risk patients: normally PSA greater than 20ng/ml, or Gleason Score
8-10, there was 66% recurrence.
Overall, the average recurrence rate was about 1/3 of the patients over
10 years, and this statistic is not nearly adequate, especially for a
man who typically has a potential 30-year lifespan ahead of him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recurrence is feared by all patients

Recurrence is only an arbitrary marker of the rise in PSA after
treatment.

The worrisome aspect of recurrence is that it is related to the time
until metastasis (spread of the cancer), and metastasis usually implies
suffering and death.

Almost all prostate cancer patients have a Gleason Score (level of
aggressiveness) between 5 and 10. The Johns Hopkins result, 2003, were
that:

For the Gleason Score 5-7 patients, the probability of metastasis
varied between 16 and 25% at 7 years; and for the Gleason Score 8-10
patients, the probability of metastasis varied between 43% and 93% at 7
years after recurrence.

For those men who metastasized (usually those with more rapidly rising
PSA), the average time to metastasis was about 7.5 years after
treatment unless other intervening treatment is successful, and the
average time from metastasis to death was 6.5 years. Prostate cancer
can greatly shorten life, and recurrence is its marker for trouble.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hormonal and other drugs for recurrence

The "gold standard" of care for men with recurrence after surgery
or radiation therapy (i.e. men with advanced disease) has been hormonal
(or androgen deprivation) therapy (ADT).

The intent is to greatly slow down the growth of cancerous cells by
depriving the man of testosterone. Both injection of drugs like Lupron
and use of pills such as Casodex become part of a plan for stopping the
rise of PSA.

For many men use of ADT is effective. The problems are that ADT has a
set of side effects that many men view as unacceptably brutal, and even
if they are endured, in time, the cancer is likely to recur without
testosterone and the ADT will no longer work.

One alternative has been to use ADT temporarily to drive the PSA level
down to undetectable levels and then let the body recover. Some drug is
often used to sustain this "OFF" cycle as long as possible, and ADT
is only used again when the PSA rises to some level (PSA=4 is used by
Catalona).

This therapy is called intermittent androgen deprivation (IAD).

A new problem for IAD is that the process for picking one or more of
the several hundred drugs that are in development or early use that
might be suitable for cancer suppression during the OFF cycle, has not
been established. Availability of these drugs is also often an issue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The New-Era offers something better

The lowering of the PSA screening threshold to 2.5 does seem to help.

Dr. Patrick Walsh of Johns Hopkins published his 10-year results in the
PSA region 0-4ng/ml:

Of patients with Gleason Scores of 5-7, recurrence was between only 1
and 18 %. Compare this to 20-50% recurrence for low-to-medium risk
patients, above.
Of patients with Gleason Scores of 8-10, recurrence was only 37%.
Compare this to 66% recurrence for high-risk patients, above.
Dr. Catalona described cooperative use of adjuvant and salvage
high-dosage radiation therapy in a prior issue of Quest. The recurrent
patients usually had about an 80% chance of ending the recurrence with
those follow-up treatments.

In the new era using both therapies together:

Of patients with Gleason scores of 5-7: 96% or better, non-recurrence
Of patients with Gleason scores of 8-10: 80-93% non-recurrence
These results are with limited or no use of difficult hormonal
therapies.

While these results require further validation, at such high levels of
outcome success, the best choice for a patient to follow is the New-Era
approach for screening and treatment; and it's not even a close call.

http://www.drcatalona.com/quest/Spring05/quest_spring05_6.asp
Leonard Evens - 17 Nov 2005 14:41 GMT
> Sspecifically in his "The Rate of recurrence in the PSA-Era was too
> high" where does he get his numbers from? Do they appear accuate?
[quoted text clipped - 180 lines]
>
> http://www.drcatalona.com/quest/Spring05/quest_spring05_6.asp

Jules Reichel is not a physician, but he does try to be informed.  Still
I think in this case he wasn't very clear.   If he is saying anything it
is that more screening and lowering the PSA threshhold or using PSA
velocity as an indication for biopsy  may make a difference.   If you
look, he gives high figures for recurrence in the PSA era in one part of
the article and then reports Walsh's much more optimistic recurrence
estimates later.   He doesn't really address the issue of why there
should be a difference except to say that "new era" techniques seem to
make a difference, but if you look carefully, you see it might have
something to do with PSA levels at diagnosis.  From what I've read, I
think the explanation is that (a) it has taken some time for screening
to take hold, and (b) treatment has improved.  The basic technique,
following Walsh's innovations, hasn't changed very much, but there are
many more urologists trained in that tehnique.  Radiation therapy has
improved by better focusing allowing increased doses.
Alan Meyer - 17 Nov 2005 16:25 GMT
> ...   If you
> look, he gives high figures for recurrence in the PSA era in one part of
> the article and then reports Walsh's much more optimistic recurrence
> estimates later.
> ...

I have never known what to make of the differences in success
rates reported by studies at different institutions.

Walsh's reports show the highest success rates of anyone.  One
possible reason for this is that he and his surgery department may
be the best surgeons around and the skill of the surgeon may be
a significant factor in success.

However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that
he thinks are highly curable - referring the higher risk patients
elsewhere.

> ...   He doesn't really address the issue of why there
> should be a difference except to say that "new era" techniques seem to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> many more urologists trained in that tehnique.  Radiation therapy has
> improved by better focusing allowing increased doses.

Exactly right.  It's not clear that the "new era" techniques, whatever
that means, explain the difference between Walsh's numbers and
the numbers reported earlier in the article.

   Alan
ron - 17 Nov 2005 17:16 GMT
Alan Meyer wrote...snip...
> However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that
> he thinks are highly curable - referring the higher risk patients
> elsewhere.

Hi Alan...Walsh may be selective in whatever surgeries he perfoms
nowadays, but I don't think that used to be the case.  In Walsh's paper
wher he presents his 10-year nomogram for RP results at Hopkins, Table
I shows the following characteristics of the men included in the study:

Organ confined 1,050 (50)
Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score less than 7, neg. surgical
margins 310 (15)
Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score less than 7, pos. surgical
margins 96 (5)
Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score 7 or greater, neg. surgical
margins 306 (15)
Extraprostatic extension, Gleason score 7 or greater, pos. surgical
margins 119 (6)
Seminal vesicle involvement, neg. lymph nodes 98 (4)
Micrometastases to pelvic lymph nodes 112 (5)

Only half of the men were even organ-confined, almost 10% had either SV
involvement or LN mets.  He wasn't cherry picking back in the
day...Best wishes and good health, Ron
Alan Meyer - 17 Nov 2005 19:14 GMT
> Alan Meyer wrote...snip...
> > However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> involvement or LN mets.  He wasn't cherry picking back in the
> day...Best wishes and good health, Ron

I'm glad to see that.  It's nice to know that one of our heroes
is as deserving of our praise as we thought him to be.

I get the impression that Dr. Walsh and his department are
practicing medicine the way it should be practiced.  I wonder
how many other surgeons keep statistics like these or have
any concept of how important they are.

I heard a talk about antibiotics at NIH this week (I work there
as a computer programmer.)  One of the researchers said
that 50% of all prescriptions for antibiotics are written for
people who have viral diseases - they can't benefit and
will suffer the side effects of the antibiotics for no reason
whatever.  Most physicians don't even bother to perform tests
that would tell them whether an infection is bacterial or not.
They just try the drug to see if it helps.

He also said that it was difficult for NIH to convince practicing
clinicians of the need for thorough testing of subjects before
enrolling them in clinical trials.  He found one trial where it
turned out that 2/3 of the enrolled patients turned out upon
testing _not_ to have the disease for which the new drug was
on trial.

Steve Jordan is always complaining that we don't do enough
medical testing, and I sometimes think he's going overboard.
But if more doctors did what Steve wants them to do, and what
Dr. Walsh apparently does, we'd have better treatment
outcomes.

   Alan
Steve Jordan - 17 Nov 2005 19:55 GMT
On November 17, Alan Meyer wrote, in pertinent part:

> Steve Jordan is always complaining that we don't do enough
> medical testing, and I sometimes think he's going overboard.

Well, ackshully it's me citing, and/or basing my rants upon, what medics
say. Especially Strum, who is pretty nearly contemptuous of medics who do
not perform enough staging tests.

> But if more doctors did what Steve wants them to do, and what
> Dr. Walsh apparently does, we'd have better treatment
> outcomes.

There is absolutely no doubt of that. Do the tests early on so that therapy
can be guided by the information gained. When I read here and elsewhere
about medics refusing to do tests requested by patients who have educated
themselves it drives me bonkers.

Knowledge is life.

Regards,

Steve J

"What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? Shun
wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget 'what the stars
foretell,' avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the
unguessable 'verdict of history' -- what are the facts, and to how many
decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your
single clue. Get the facts!"
--Lazarus Long
I. P. Freely - 17 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT
> Well, ackshully it's me citing, and/or basing my rants upon, what medics
> say. Especially Strum

Yet you bash me for doing exactly that.

I'll delete the rest of what I'd LIKE to say, you [snip].

I.P.
Steve Jordan - 18 Nov 2005 00:47 GMT
On November 17, the irrational I. P. Freely responded to me:

>>Well, ackshully it's me citing, and/or basing my rants upon, what medics
>>say. Especially Strum
>
> Yet you bash me for doing exactly that.

Sonny, I haven't even *BEGUN* to bash. Or to flame.

> I'll delete the rest of what I'd LIKE to say, you [snip].

I will say this for IP, he can be consistently annoying. Something like a
puppy snapping at one's heels.

Well, I'll try to ignore him henceforward at best I can...

If he has deliberately set out to make an implacable enemy, he is making
great progress.

Regards,

Steve J

"You can fool some of the people some of the time, and those are the ones
you need to concentrate on."
--Christopher Buckley
judamd@aol.com - 17 Nov 2005 20:58 GMT
In defense of the physicians who "don't bother," many of them are
evaluated according to patient responses to questionaires.  The patient
who storms out of the doctor's office because he couldn't get an
antibiotic for his cold rarely provides a positive review of his
doctor.  So, thanks to the ignorance of the many, everyone pays the
price with higher medical costs and, in this example, bacteria immune
to existing medications.  The docs aren't innocent in these matter
either.  How about the possibility of greater reimbursement from
medicare/insurances if the patient is diagnosed with "suspected sinus
infection - prescribed antibiotic" instead of "routine office visit,
just a cold - no treatment".
Dave Perry
Leonard Evens - 17 Nov 2005 20:14 GMT
>>...   If you
>>look, he gives high figures for recurrence in the PSA era in one part of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> be the best surgeons around and the skill of the surgeon may be
> a significant factor in success.

Actually, in my case at least, the Sloan Kettering nomogram gives a
slightly better estimate for non-recurrence.   The Sloan Kettering
nomogram has been tested and confirmed at several high quality medical
centers, not all of them in the US.   I think the original data was from
Baylor, but I could be wrong.

It should be noted that nomograms, from Walsh or Sloan-Kettering, are
predictions based on long term studies but they are not simply a
restatement of the data.  It seems clear that early detection has
improved non-recurrence rates, but the studies include many cases from
before the PSA era or early in it.  In addition,  Walsh seems to have
detected an improvement over time which is not completely attributable
to any other factor.   In any event, the predictions for the future
incorporate the improvement over time detected in the data.

> However some have argued that Walsh will only treat people that
> he thinks are highly curable - referring the higher risk patients
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>     Alan
Dick Smith - 17 Nov 2005 21:22 GMT
This statement stood out for me:
"Emphasis on viewing surgery and follow-up high dosage radiation
therapy
(usually IMRT at dosage levels over 70Gy), when required, as a
compatible pair of processes rather than only as opposing options;"

It sounds like Mr Reichel is in favor of applying IMRT subsequently to
an RRP when deemed necessary. The question is, what is considered
necessary? Also I'm assuming IMRT was choosen due to a decrease of side
effects?
I. P. Freely - 17 Nov 2005 23:18 GMT
> I'm assuming IMRT was choosen due to a decrease of side effects?

That would be an invalid assumption, worthy of much more research. The
comparisons are quite complex, varying greatly among different cases of
cancer, different patients, different priorities, different onset and
abatement times, etc.

I.P.
Steve Jordan - 17 Nov 2005 23:22 GMT
> This statement stood out for me:
> "Emphasis on viewing surgery and follow-up high dosage radiation
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> necessary? Also I'm assuming IMRT was choosen due to a decrease of side
> effects?

First, I doubt that, at least in the USofA, any mode of EBRT other than
IMRT would be in use.

I did not undergo RP, but might be able to shed some light on the subject.
My primary tx was cryosurgery, which utterly failed to accomplish its
advertised purpose.

I then enlisted for IMRT. The total dose was 76 Gy, and 40-some Gy were
applied to seminal vesicles and pelvic lymph nodes. Radiation tx was
completed in October, 2004. I also began a regimen of ADT which continues
to this day.

I was told by Dr. Strum that my cancer was systemic.

So far, thank Whoever is cranking, the tx has succeeded. As I recently
posted, my Gleason 9 tumor has not metastasized.

So far as necessity for post-RP rad therapy is concerned, it is my
understanding that it is resorted to when there is evidence that the cancer
penetrated the capsule of the prostate gland but the medics think that it's
only in the pelvic nodes and seminal vesicles. It does seem to me that
trying to judge (or guess) whether the cancer is locally spread and
confined to the pelvic region or systemic, even metastatic, is risky
business. And it is our lives that are at risk.

There are tests, some of them sneered at by ignorant uros, that can help
one to make an educated judgment. These are outlined in the life-saving
book _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient's
Guide" by Stephen B. Strum MD, oncologist specializing in PCa, and Donna
Pogliano, PCa warrior.

They can also be found on the website of the Prostate Cancer Research
Institute at http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
along with much authoritative and objective information.

Look for such things as PAP, AP, CGA, and more. Each is a piece of the
puzzle and will be of tremendous help in understanding the patient's
particular disease (and they're all to some extent different), thereby
providing intelligence on the strength and dispositions of the enemy.

Make no mistake: this is a war with a merciless enemy. Study, Learn and
Take Charge! of your tx.

Knowledge is life.

Regards,

Steve J

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory
gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor
yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
--Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
I. P. Freely - 18 Nov 2005 01:26 GMT
"Steve Jordan" >
> I was told by Dr. Strum that my cancer was systemic.
> my Gleason 9 tumor has not metastasized.

What's the difference?

> There are tests, some of them sneered at by ignorant uros, that can help
> one to make an educated judgment.  Look for such things as PAP, AP, CGA,
> and more. Each is a piece of the puzzle and will be of tremendous help in
> understanding the patient's particular disease (and they're all to some
> extent different), thereby providing intelligence on the strength and
> dispositions of the enemy.

But a big trial summarized here just this week implied -- almost stated --  
that these tests paled compared to PSA kinetics, at least to the extent
published. Who are we to believe?

I.P.
Gogarty - 18 Nov 2005 12:27 GMT
Praise of Dr. Walsh is not universal.

It isn't just who does the surgery but which intern sews you up after Dr.
Walsh has washed his hands.

A good friend of mine had his surgery at Johns Hopkins, Dr. Walsh presiding.
But the finishing up was so badly done he had to go to another hospital a
year later for corrective surgery. The basic operation was a success. Six
years later no PSA but bad scars.
Alex - 18 Nov 2005 19:23 GMT
Another issue is whether Dr. Walsh and others who claim very high success
rates deliberately choose to accept patients who are in otherwise good
health and have a high likelihood of of a good outcome, and avoid those who
are at greater risk and might therefore lower the doctor's stats.

Alex

> Praise of Dr. Walsh is not universal.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> year later for corrective surgery. The basic operation was a success. Six
> years later no PSA but bad scars.
ron - 18 Nov 2005 20:17 GMT
> Another issue is whether Dr. Walsh and others who claim very high success
> rates deliberately choose to accept patients who are in otherwise good
> health and have a high likelihood of of a good outcome, and avoid those who
> are at greater risk and might therefore lower the doctor's stats.

Please read post #4 above.
Alex - 18 Nov 2005 22:04 GMT
>> Another issue is whether Dr. Walsh and others who claim very high success
>> rates deliberately choose to accept patients who are in otherwise good
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Please read post #4 above.

Sorry, I missed that. Thanks! Back up on the pedestal he goes. (g)

Alex
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.