Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2005
Seeded/Radiated Prostate Removal?
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Keith - 21 Oct 2005 09:14 GMT My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and radiated them.....I think. His PSA test modulate from 1.1 to 1.8 to 1.2 etc.....His urologist says that He needs to see a sign of the PSA levels elevated and for several test before he would be led to believe his cancer is back. If that was the case, then he would run a bone scan and a chest xray to see if it has spread. If it had then removing the previously radiated prostrate would be an option but that no one in the Dallas area do that sort of thing on a regular basis and that he would need to go to MD Anderson in Houston to a Dr. that does that alot and with better results than most......referring to the possible negative side effects being greater removing a tough old leathery-like seed-radiated prostate as compared to a 'normal' prostate.
Here's my questions: 1) Is it true that a seed radiated prostate is more complicated to remove and need a special surgeon for that so as to reduce the increased rate of side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side effects?
Have any of you had any experience with this? Please reply if you have or if you have gathered the knowledge by whatever means.
Thanks............Keith
Glassman - 21 Oct 2005 12:26 GMT > My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side > effects? Yes of course, this is one of the considerations when choosing seeding over surgery in the first place. So far all looks fine with his PSA, and he should believe what his doc is telling him.
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Sandy K. - 21 Oct 2005 15:39 GMT > My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks............Keith When I was given the various choices when deciding how to treat my prostate cancer, one of the things that turned me off from seeding and freezing was that if not successful, removing the prostate was not a viable option. It seems it sort of "melts" to the surrounding area and removal would then require also removing parts of the bowel. As one of the younger guys here (I was 47 when I had my surgery) I opted to have it removed so as to not deal with the issues your brother is now facing.
Sandy K.
Steve Kramer - 21 Oct 2005 22:26 GMT You got two good answers. I'll add that people who choose radiation hope for their PSA to gradually go down and level out. If it levels out at 1.2 for so for 50 years, that's good.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Leonard Evens - 21 Oct 2005 22:26 GMT > My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side > effects? Yes, it is true that you need a surgeon sho specializes in 'salvage' surgery. More important you need advice about whether or not such surgery would do any good. If the cancer has already spread beyond the local area, surgery would be pointless except possibly to relieve symptoms.
> Have any of you had any experience with this? > Please reply if you have or if you have gathered the knowledge by whatever [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- work - 21 Oct 2005 23:13 GMT > My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- work - 21 Oct 2005 23:19 GMT I had seed implants about 5 months ago. I was told that some people have a bounce or slightly high psa tests and it is not necessarily a cause for alarm. I would tend to trust his urologist who you said is not ready to believe his cancer is back. ( I didn't even bother to ask my doctor what my 3 month psa results were. ) I'm certain there are other treatment if the worse comes to pass, but it sounds as if his urologist believes it is not time to worry about that. Good luck to your brother. Woody
> > My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He > > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- Clarence Crow - 21 Oct 2005 23:49 GMT <snip>
>Here's my questions: >1) Is it true that a seed radiated prostate is more complicated to remove >and need a special surgeon for that so as to reduce the increased rate of >side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side >effects? It would be more difficult to remove and leave no damage to the urethra. Ergo, you would have urinary problems with extended catherisation, possibly supra-pubic.
If it was properly radiated, I cannot see any point in removing it. His PSA numbers are currently good without cause for concern.
Other posters here have made allusions to cancer "coming back". This is not what happens. Cancer is always present. When you cease suppressing it, it grows.
If you can get a PET scan, there's a big chance of detecting Mets if your PSA doubling time is of short duration.
If Mets were present, you would then require a new treatment plan,
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-- CC
Steve Jordan - 22 Oct 2005 00:33 GMT On October 21, "Clarence Crow" replied to "Keith":
> It would be more difficult to remove and leave no damage to the > urethra. Ergo, you would have urinary problems with extended > catherisation, possibly supra-pubic. I had a supra-pubic catheter after my botched cryosurgery in late 2003.
So here you are with this tube extending through your lower abdomen into your bladder. Looks awful, doesn't hurt, is always subject to causing internal damage if improperly handled. Indeed, the goddamn uro told me that it must, willy nilly, be removed no later than ninety days after installation in order to prevent various nasty things from happening.
Also: how do you keep it and yourself clean, not wishing to run tap water over the open wound? And how about being forced to sleep on your back whether it's comfortable or not? Well, if you're sufficiently exhausted, it can be done.
Lastly, when it's removed, how about that leakage? Wow!
> If it was properly radiated, I cannot see any point in removing it. > His PSA numbers are currently good without cause for concern. > > Other posters here have made allusions to cancer "coming back". This > is not what happens. Cancer is always present. When you cease > suppressing it, it grows. I thank CC for making this clear. Even the medics often refer to "recurrence" which I suppose is technically correct (but misleading) if the "recurrence" is actually a clinically-detectable manifestation of what's been lurking all along.
IOW, anyone who thinks he's cured is probably I say probably living in a fool's paradise. I believe that, if the PCa was at all advanced upon dx, even with the optimistic "clear margins" and "we got it all" so beloved of uros, we are in a war with a merciless killer; no end, no quarter.
To paraphrase Wendell Phillips, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty...from PCa"
Regards,
Steve J
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry." -- Ernest Hemingway, author and broken man
Steve Kramer - 22 Oct 2005 02:48 GMT > On October 21, "Clarence Crow" replied to "Keith":
> IOW, anyone who thinks he's cured is probably I say probably living in a > fool's paradise. I believe that, if the PCa was at all advanced upon dx, > even with the optimistic "clear margins" and "we got it all" so beloved of > uros, we are in a war with a merciless killer; no end, no quarter. I suspect no one who has visited here for a significant period of time believes they are cured.
But, some have earned the right to believe they will die of something else. I watching what has happened to our membership over the last few years, I imagine 75% or more of us will not die of Prostate Cancer.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
DominicM - 22 Oct 2005 21:07 GMT I have no 1st hand experience however my brother who is surgeon and tells me that removing a radiated prostate is a challenge and yes not all surgeons will take this on. It called Salvage Radical Prostatectomy. I know Dr. Eastham at Sloan Kettering does this and you can bet that Hopkins guys can do it too.
Alan Meyer - 24 Oct 2005 04:57 GMT Your brother's PSA may or may not indicate a recurrence. Since it went down after going up, there is a decent chance that it is not a recurrence or, to speak more precisely as Clarence would have it, a progression of the disease.
Brachytherapy often produces "bouncing" PSA. The PSA usually settles down after three years, but I think some people have bounces after that. If I remember correctly, the standard for PSA "failure", as opposed to bounce, is three successive increases in PSA.
Salvage prostatectomy is possible and is done in a number of cancer centers. However most surgeons won't do it because the number of side effects is high and in order to be successful, the rising PSA must have definitely been a local recurrence, not a metastatic one.
There was a National Cancer Institute sponsored clinical trial underway testing salvage prostatectomy. See:
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00002938?order=8
I see a notice on that page however that the trial has been suspended but, unfortunately, I haven't been able to find out why. If you call some of the centers and find out, please let us know.
Sometimes when a trial is suspended it is because early results were bad and they decided not to subject any more patients to the treatment. I don't know if that was the reason in this case.
I know that your brother must be anxious about his PSA. Who could blame him? We all are. But there are good chances that:
1. It is not a recurrence. 2. If it is a recurrence, it will be slow growing and not life threatening for many years. 3. If it becomes life threatening, then hormone therapy may block it for years. 4. New treatments may become available.
So, there is a decent chance that, no matter what, he will die of something other than PCa.
Alan
Keith - 25 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT Thanks to all who have responded. I feel good about my brothers immediate status and whether naive or not I feel good about his long term status. My brother is 46 years old. It seems to me to be all about what gives you hope. I know where of I speak.....I was diagnosed with AML leukemia in March of '94...went through alot of stuff, bone marrow transplant etc. I've been in remission for over 9 years which they say if you make it past 5 they consider you cured...yada yada I have to say that I'm not as informed about prostate cancer as I am about AML but from what I've heard in here, especially Alan's post, I have hope for my brothers future health. He tends to jump to the negative which we've all done at one time or another if you have been diagnosed with cancer, but from his doctors assessment and the information I received here I feel like I'm better informed and I feel that level headedness that you get with information and facts. It's the truth that gives you hope. Thank you all,
Keith
> Your brother's PSA may or may not indicate a recurrence. > Since it went down after going up, there is a decent chance [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Alan
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