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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2005

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Seeded/Radiated Prostate Removal?

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Keith - 21 Oct 2005 09:14 GMT
My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
radiated them.....I think. His PSA test modulate from 1.1 to 1.8 to 1.2
etc.....His urologist says that He needs to see a sign of the PSA levels
elevated and for several test before he would be led to believe his cancer
is back. If that was the case, then he would run a bone scan and a chest
xray to see if it has spread. If it had then removing the previously
radiated prostrate would be an option but that no one in the Dallas area do
that sort of thing on a regular basis and that he would need to go to MD
Anderson in Houston to a Dr. that does that alot and with better results
than most......referring to the possible negative side effects being greater
removing a tough old leathery-like seed-radiated prostate as compared to a
'normal' prostate.

Here's my questions:
1) Is it true that a seed radiated prostate is more complicated to remove
and need a special surgeon for that so as to reduce the increased rate of
side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side
effects?

Have any of you had any experience with this?
Please reply if you have or if you have gathered the knowledge by whatever
means.

Thanks............Keith
Glassman - 21 Oct 2005 12:26 GMT
> My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
> underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side
> effects?

  Yes of course, this is one of the considerations when choosing seeding
over surgery in the first place. So far all looks fine with his PSA, and he
should believe what his doc is telling him.

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JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Sandy K. - 21 Oct 2005 15:39 GMT
> My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
> underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Thanks............Keith

When I was given the various choices when deciding how to treat my prostate
cancer, one of the things that turned me off from seeding and freezing was
that if not successful, removing the prostate was not a viable option.  It
seems it sort of "melts" to the surrounding area and removal would then
require also removing parts of the bowel.  As one of the younger guys here
(I was 47 when I had my surgery) I opted to have it removed so as to not
deal with the issues your brother is now facing.

Sandy K.
Steve Kramer - 21 Oct 2005 22:26 GMT
You got two good answers.  I'll add that people who choose radiation hope
for their PSA to gradually go down and level out.  If it levels out at 1.2
for so for 50 years, that's good.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
> underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Leonard Evens - 21 Oct 2005 22:26 GMT
> My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
> underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side
> effects?

Yes, it is true that you need a surgeon sho specializes in 'salvage'
surgery.   More important you need advice about whether or not such
surgery would do any good.  If the cancer has already spread beyond the
local area, surgery would be pointless except possibly to relieve symptoms.

> Have any of you had any experience with this?
> Please reply if you have or if you have gathered the knowledge by whatever
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
work - 21 Oct 2005 23:13 GMT
> My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
> underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
work - 21 Oct 2005 23:19 GMT
I had seed implants about 5 months ago. I was told that some people have a
bounce or  slightly high psa tests and it is not necessarily a cause for
alarm.  I would tend to trust his urologist who you said is not ready to
believe his cancer is back. ( I didn't even bother to ask my doctor what my
3 month psa results were. )
I'm certain there are other treatment if the worse comes to pass, but it
sounds as if his urologist believes it is not time to worry about that.
Good luck to your brother.
Woody

> > My brother was diagnosed about four years ago with prostate cancer. He
> > underwent the hormonal therapy and implanted seeds into his prostate and
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----
Clarence Crow - 21 Oct 2005 23:49 GMT
<snip>
>Here's my questions:
>1) Is it true that a seed radiated prostate is more complicated to remove
>and need a special surgeon for that so as to reduce the increased rate of
>side effects like incontinence.....and what are the other possible bad side
>effects?

It would be more difficult to remove and leave no damage to the
urethra. Ergo, you would have urinary problems with extended
catherisation, possibly supra-pubic.

If it was properly radiated, I cannot see any point in removing it.
His PSA numbers are currently good without cause for concern.

Other posters here have made allusions to cancer "coming back". This
is not what happens. Cancer is always present. When you cease
suppressing it, it grows.

If you can get a PET scan, there's a big chance of detecting Mets if
your PSA doubling time is of short duration.

If Mets were present, you would then require a new treatment plan,

-- Reader to complete...
-- Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake:

-- Regards

-- CC
Steve Jordan - 22 Oct 2005 00:33 GMT
On October 21, "Clarence Crow" replied to "Keith":

> It would be more difficult to remove and leave no damage to the
> urethra. Ergo, you would have urinary problems with extended
> catherisation, possibly supra-pubic.

I had a supra-pubic catheter after my botched cryosurgery in late 2003.

So here you are with this tube extending through your lower abdomen into
your bladder. Looks awful, doesn't hurt, is always subject to causing
internal damage if improperly handled. Indeed, the goddamn uro told me that
it must, willy nilly, be removed no later than ninety days after
installation in order to prevent various nasty things from happening.

Also: how do you keep it and yourself clean, not wishing to run tap water
over the open wound? And how about being forced to sleep on your back
whether it's comfortable or not? Well, if you're sufficiently exhausted, it
can be done.

Lastly, when it's removed, how about that leakage? Wow!

> If it was properly radiated, I cannot see any point in removing it.
> His PSA numbers are currently good without cause for concern.
>
> Other posters here have made allusions to cancer "coming back". This
> is not what happens. Cancer is always present. When you cease
> suppressing it, it grows.

I thank CC for making this clear. Even the medics often refer to
"recurrence" which I suppose is technically correct (but misleading) if the
"recurrence" is actually a clinically-detectable manifestation of what's
been lurking all along.

IOW, anyone who thinks he's cured is probably I say probably living in a
fool's paradise. I believe that, if the PCa was at all advanced upon dx,
even with the optimistic "clear margins" and "we got it all" so beloved of
uros, we are in a war with a merciless killer; no end, no quarter.

To paraphrase Wendell Phillips, "Eternal vigilance is the price of
liberty...from PCa"

Regards,

Steve J

"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken
places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and
the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these
you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, author and broken man
Steve Kramer - 22 Oct 2005 02:48 GMT
> On October 21, "Clarence Crow" replied to "Keith":

> IOW, anyone who thinks he's cured is probably I say probably living in a
> fool's paradise. I believe that, if the PCa was at all advanced upon dx,
> even with the optimistic "clear margins" and "we got it all" so beloved of
> uros, we are in a war with a merciless killer; no end, no quarter.

I suspect no one who has visited here for a significant period of time
believes they are cured.

But, some have earned the right to believe they will die of something else.
I watching what has happened to our membership over the last few years, I
imagine 75% or more of us will not die of Prostate Cancer.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

DominicM - 22 Oct 2005 21:07 GMT
I have no 1st hand experience however my brother who is surgeon and
tells me that removing a radiated prostate is a challenge and yes not
all surgeons will take this on. It called Salvage Radical
Prostatectomy. I know Dr. Eastham at Sloan Kettering does this and you
can bet that Hopkins guys can do it too.
Alan Meyer - 24 Oct 2005 04:57 GMT
Your brother's PSA may or may not indicate a recurrence.
Since it went down after going up, there is a decent chance
that it is not a recurrence or, to speak more precisely as
Clarence would have it, a progression of the disease.

Brachytherapy often produces "bouncing" PSA.  The PSA
usually settles down after three years, but I think some people
have bounces after that.  If I remember correctly, the standard
for PSA "failure", as opposed to bounce, is three successive
increases in PSA.

Salvage prostatectomy is possible and is done in a number
of cancer centers.  However most surgeons won't do it
because the number of side effects is high and in order
to be successful, the rising PSA must have definitely been
a local recurrence, not a metastatic one.

There was a National Cancer Institute sponsored clinical trial
underway testing salvage prostatectomy.  See:

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00002938?order=8

I see a notice on that page however that the trial has been
suspended but, unfortunately, I haven't been able to find out
why.  If you call some of the centers and find out, please let
us know.

Sometimes when a trial is suspended it is because early
results were bad and they decided not to subject any more
patients to the treatment.  I don't know if that was the reason
in this case.

I know that your brother must be anxious about his PSA.  Who
could blame him?  We all are.  But there are good chances that:

1. It is not a recurrence.
2. If it is a recurrence, it will be slow growing and not life
   threatening for many years.
3. If it becomes life threatening, then hormone therapy may
   block it for years.
4. New treatments may become available.

So, there is a decent chance that, no matter what, he will
die of something other than PCa.

   Alan
Keith - 25 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT
Thanks to all who have responded. I feel good about my brothers immediate
status and whether naive or not I feel good about his long term status. My
brother is 46 years old. It seems to me to be all about what gives you hope.
I know where of I speak.....I was diagnosed with AML leukemia in March of
'94...went through alot of stuff, bone marrow transplant etc. I've been in
remission for over 9 years which they say if you make it past 5 they
consider you cured...yada yada
I have to say that I'm not as informed about prostate cancer as I am about
AML but from what I've heard in here, especially Alan's post, I have hope
for my brothers future health. He tends to jump to the negative which we've
all done at one time or another if you have been diagnosed with cancer, but
from his doctors assessment and the information I received here I feel like
I'm better informed and I feel that level headedness that you get with
information and facts.
It's the truth that gives you hope.
Thank you all,

          Keith

> Your brother's PSA may or may not indicate a recurrence.
> Since it went down after going up, there is a decent chance
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
>    Alan
 
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