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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2005

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A faint wind, blowing from World's End - 07 Oct 2005 15:50 GMT
I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.

Dr said Gleasson scale # was 5, and T1-2

said very early stage, prostate was small

After reviewing options, the Dr suggested a brachytherapy (sic) using
Palladium 103 pellets.

said would use app 85 to 130 pellets, 3-6 per needle,

that is about 20-30 some needles.

estimating from my prostate size that is about one needle per .25 inches.

well, anyway, I decided to get this over with as soon as possible.

any thoughts?

BTW, my age is 62.

Exercise regularly, bicycle, (recumbent due to prostate problems over
years), walk, used to do tae qwan do, quit recently.

low blood pressure, medium cholesterol

real wimp about pain though.

what should I expect over during this treatment and years to follow?

how will I know that I am cured, in remission, whatever?

j.
John Loomis - 07 Oct 2005 16:44 GMT
Hello j.
   Sorry for the news that you have recieved.
You can go and see other Dr.s to get some of your questions answered.
I would make a visit with lab work to a prostate cancer specialist, or 2.
That is fair and you own your lab reports.
I was scheduled for radiation in 1999. I was 49.  I am going on 56 now, and
had RP.
Many men make differing choices, and mostly it is a trust in a Dr.
Do not be afraid to get 2nd opinions..
My 2 cents.
Good wishes, John Loomis

>I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> j.
James A. Honeychuck - 07 Oct 2005 16:56 GMT
J,

You deserve a couple of prizes, one for the most needle stabs on a
biopsy, and the other for the lowest Gleason score I think I've ever
seen on this group.

I opted for the surgical cure, so I defer to the seed experts who will
be along shortly, and wish you a full recovery.

jimhoney

> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> j.
Ed Friedman - 07 Oct 2005 17:03 GMT
> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> j.

j.,

My best recommendation would be that before making any decisions,
educate yourself as much as possible.  Read past postings to this
newsgroup, read sites on the internet dealing with prostate cancer, read
books about prostate cancer, etc..  The main thing to remember is that
although most doctors will pressure you to make an immediate decision, a
Gleason 5 prostate cancer will take 577 days on average before the cell
population doubles.  This means you have enough time to educate yourself
and to make an informed decision on whatever you choose to do.

Ed Friedman
Steve Jordan - 07 Oct 2005 17:04 GMT
On October 7, J. wrote:

> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
> Dr said Gleasson scale # was 5, and T1-2
>
> said very early stage, prostate was small

Welcome to the club no one wants to join.

The Gleason score quoted above is incomplete. The Gleason score consists of
two grades, primary and secondary. It is often expressed as, for example,
Gleason x+y=z or in my case 5+4=9 (a very aggressive tumor).

The T1-2 clinical stage is odd. Ordinarily, It would be expressed as, again
using myself as an example, T2b or some such. Clinical staging relies upon
the DRE, primarily. The T# describes whether the tumor can be felt. T1
indicates that it cannot and is good news. The a, b or c component tells us
whether the tumor is on one side (lobe) of the gland (a) or both (b) or can
be felt to extend beyond the capsule (c). Another component is N (spread to
the pelvic lymph nodes?) and M (metastases elsewhere?). The latter is where
other test procedures contribute to the clinical score. As a whole, the
clinical stage is referred to as the TNM stage: tumor, nodes, mets. Again
using myself as an example, my initial TNM stage was T2bNxM0, meaning
palpable tumor on one side, node involvement unknown, no mets.

I recommend that J. begin right now to gather all documents on his case. A
complete record will be of immeasurable value later on.

> After reviewing options, the Dr suggested a brachytherapy (sic) using
> Palladium 103 pellets.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> any thoughts?

There is no hurry to select a primary treatment (tx) mode. The new patient
must not permit himself to be rushed into a decision, especially when the
cancer is discovered, as appears to be the case here, at a relatively early
stage.

And there is a number of staging tests that can be done (but are often
neglected) to develop a clear picture of the biology of this particular tumor.

I recommend three actions to prepare for what could be an intense struggle:

First, go to the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at
http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
PCRI will provide a wealth of objective and authoritative information, and
is a vital resource.

Second: buy and study _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_, subtitled "The
Empowered Patient's Guide" by Stephen B. Strum, MD, medical oncologist and
PCa specialist, and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior. It is another source of
objective and authoritative information, and teaches the new patient how to
become empowered and take responsibility for his tx.

Three: have that Gleason score confirmed by a specialist laboratory.
Everything from here on is done in reliance upon that score, and its
accuracy absolutely *must* be confirmed. The cost is ~$350 and I understand
that insurance covers it. I know that Medicare does. Medics know about
those labs but will not volunteer the information; they must be asked. The
labs are listed on the PCRI website and in the above book. BTW, the biopsy
specimens are legally the property of the patient!

(snip)

> what should I expect over during this treatment and years to follow?
>
> how will I know that I am cured, in remission, whatever?

We are all different, and it is impossible to know what any individual pt
should expect. There are side effects from each tx. Pts might experience
some, all, or none of them. Each tx and its SEs is explained in detail on
the website and in the book. Medics often neglect to explain SEs, leaving
pts to cope as best they can.

So far as knowledge of the status of the case after tx, the usual test is
the PSA, done on a regular basis. It could be required for many years, just
to be sure.

Regards,

Steve J

"We must tailor the treatment to the nature of the disease. We must listen
to the biology."
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
I. P. Freely - 07 Oct 2005 18:16 GMT
> any thoughts?

Absolutely:  *R*E*A*D*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I would prit that in blinking,
bold, red letters three inches high if I allowed HTML in my e-mail.)

Do your OWN research, hundreds of hours of it. Your life, sex life, urinary
and fecal continence, and many other little things like those depend on
choosing the RIGHT treatment for YOU . . . and no one doctor knows what that
is. After you're read hundreds of posts here, several PC books, many
AUTHORITATIVE websites, and a few oncologists' opinions on YOUR case and
YOUR status . . . after you have chosen and believe 100% in a treatment
after studying EVERY option . . . THEN you're ready to act.

I.P.
Glassman - 08 Oct 2005 00:18 GMT
> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> After reviewing options, the Dr suggested a brachytherapy (sic) using
> Palladium 103 pellets.

 Let me just fill you in on what is the obvious, that I didn't find out
until I saw more than 1 doc. Whether you have surgery, (RP), or Brachy,
(seeds), each one is designed to get rid of the entire prostate, not just
the cancer. The results at best will end up making you sterile, as you will
not ever be able to ejeculate again.  Whatever the specialty of your doc, is
the one he's going to recommend.  I chose surgery because I liked the idea
of allowing my surgeon to see the entire area, and test it for any
spreading, and having it OUT OUT OUT.  I also was a very slow and frequent
urinator for many years, and now after surgery I  "pee like a racehorse on
crack", and can sleep through the entire night.  I have heard too many seed
stories of painful bowel and urinary complications.  READ READ READ, and ask
questions of several professionals before you make your choice. The
interesting fact is that whatever you decide the results are pretty much the
same. At 62 you'll most probably die of something else before PCa gets you.
Good luck!

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

dale.j. - 08 Oct 2005 01:30 GMT
> > I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> same. At 62 you'll most probably die of something else before PCa gets you.
> Good luck!

I echo JK's entire posting.  I'm almost three years out from the RRP and
everything is A-OK!!  Having said that, everyone is different.  Perhaps
the radiation is better suited for you.  You should get at least another
opinion or maybe two more from a surgeon and radiation doc.  It's never
bad to have excess of information, at least in my opinion.

Dale j.

Signature

Email:  dalej2@mac.com

Tom Cular - 08 Oct 2005 10:52 GMT
I can only echo what others have said regarding second opinions and
research, in my opinion, there is no one best treatment that fits everyone.
I work with three other men who've also been treated for Pca. Of the four of
us it's an even split on surgery and brachytheraphy. The other three have
more than five years of good results. I'm the newbie with 16 mos.following
seeds, so far results have been good.

JK mentioned too many seed stories of painful bowel and urinary
complications. I heard and/or read a few, but not what I would consider "too
many". All treatment protocols have side effects, A common side effect of
brachytheraphy is urinary retention and urgency that seems to peak at about
6 wks. with Pd103 and then things begin to return to normal.

Wish you the best,
Tom

>> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> you.
> Good luck!
A faint wind, blowing from World's End - 09 Oct 2005 03:03 GMT
> I can only echo what others have said regarding second opinions and
> research, in my opinion, there is no one best treatment that fits everyone.
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>>you.
>>Good luck!

Thanks to all  of you for your comments.

I really liked to pcri web site.

I have been reading a lot.

I do have one question though.

without a prostrate to produce the seminal fluid, what does an
ejaculation feel like?

jerry
Glassman - 09 Oct 2005 03:26 GMT
> Thanks to all  of you for your comments.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> jerry

  Great! .... just like chicken...

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Reuben Rothstein - 09 Oct 2005 07:24 GMT
Great and you don't have to worry abou the towl

>> Thanks to all  of you for your comments.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>   Great! .... just like chicken...
I. P. Freely - 09 Oct 2005 07:50 GMT
Clever how you avoided the USUAL metaphor. ;-o-8

I.P.

"Glassman" <wrote>
>   Great! .... just like chicken...
ross lazarus - 09 Oct 2005 03:33 GMT
> I do have one question though.
>
> without a prostrate to produce the seminal fluid, what does an
> ejaculation feel like?

I'm sure this varies between us as much after rp as before :-) because physiologically, the prostate
is a central part of the male reproductive system and plays a key role in many aspects of sexual
function, particularly at ejaculation. Even in the best surgeon's hands, no aspect of sexual
function is likely to get better as a result of rp surgery...

For what it's worth, for me it's definitely different. Still very satisfying, but there's no
physical ejaculate and it's not as intense. Then again, at 54 before rp it had already changed from
when I was 20. Does that bother me or my wife? No - it's part of the price I paid for getting my
cancer out and I have no regrets. For me, rgasm isn't the same - I'm not the same - that's life and
I accept the trade off I made as gracefully as I can. Even if you have an early, low grade PCa, if
you really place a higher value on your preop sexual function and orgasm intensity than on the hope
of not dying of PCa, then perhaps you should reconsider surgery as an option. I and most men here
voted with our feet...
Greg Louis - 09 Oct 2005 12:22 GMT
>> without a prostrate to produce the seminal fluid, what does an ejaculation
> feel like?
>
> jerry

We probably vary, but fwiw, mine feel completely normal and satisfying.  I
had the first one four or five days after brachytherapy implant and it was
great!  Ten months later, all's still well in that regard.

Signature

Greg

Steve U - 09 Oct 2005 17:43 GMT
Jerry,
For me, post op orgasm has been better than before surgery in that it
lasts about 3 times as long and is very intense. It is like hearing the
same song, just as loud, but very slow. My doc said he hears that from
about 20% of his patients.
Steve U
kh - 11 Oct 2005 02:53 GMT
> >>>I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> without a prostrate to produce the seminal fluid, what does an
> ejaculation feel like?

Couple clarifications....

I was diagnosed about 15 months ago, PSA 10+, T1 or maybe T2
depending on who you asked, Gleason 7 (4+3) but in 5% of one core.
The first 6 core biopsy missed it entirely.

Last summer (2004) they gave me the first of 2 four month Lupron
shots.  This was a couple months before the 25 IMRT sessions.   A
year ago, I had 97 Palladium-103 seeds.

As I've mentioned several times.  I had very slight side effects
from the IMRT, a little urinary urgency.   Maybe some lower GI
symptoms but nothing that might not be simply diet.

The seeding was equally easy.  I asked for a local, a spinal block,
because I wanted to watch the monitors and listen to the operation.
Unfortunately, I was able to "feel and move my feet" so they knocked
me out.

When I got up, it took less than an hour to get a drink, pee, have
the catheter yanked out.  I walked out of the recovery room and to
the curb where my driver picked me up.  That's *walked out*, no
courtesy wheelchair.  

I was "juiced" on decadron (a steriod that reduces swelling in the
urethra), flomax (improves pee'ing), pyridium (reduces pain while
pee'ing but dyes the pee bright orange), and a couple other drugs.

That day, I pee'ed a few drops of blood.  The first ejaculation  a
few days later, was reddish brown.

I was still on Lupron so I wasn't having regular erections and
wasn't especially interested in them.

At about seeding+one month, I was getting up several times a night
to pee and had to "go" about every hour or two during the day.    My
drive to work is 30-50 minutes, depending on traffic.  I never had
to pull over and run for the bushes.

Each month after that, I was going longer and longer between having
to pee.  At about the 5th or 6th month post seeding, I was sleeping
through the night.  

At the one year mark, I can drink 32 ounces of water, go to bed and
sleep for 8 hours.  I also drink 32 ounces of dilute coffee in the
morning, pee, and drive 45 minutes to the office.  

The erections returned about 7 months after the 4 month Lupron shot.
Call it 3 months for the Testosterone to start rising.  About then,
I also started looking at www.thehun.com again.  

Erections and orgasms are *not* as good as before.  However, at
seeding+one year, I can have an erection without direct physical
stimulation and without chemical assistance.  This is not as easy as
before but the docs say that it will improve as the Testosterone
levels increase.  The last T was 310 which is at the low end of
normal.

The erections, even with a 50 mg of Vitamin-V, are not as hard as
I'd like but are serviceable. I've done it both ways.  One odd
side effect is that I can orgasm and ejaculate while relatively
soft, go figure.

I ejaculate a small quantity of fluid, about a half teaspoon. It
looks different, thinner, clearer.  According to the books, about a
third of seeding patients do this.

It feels about the same but different.  

After seeding, while on Lupron, I clocked two <0.1 PSA's.  When the
Lupron wore off, my PSA went to 0.4 and the last test, at the 1 year
mark, was 1.0.

The rad-doc says that is well within range of what he expects.  He
said that if I had not been on Lupron, a "good" sequence would have
been 8, 6, 4, 2, something like that, in a smoothly descending
curve.

He is optimistic that he "got it all" with his IMRT and
Palladium-103 seeds and he said that I should "live my life as if I
were cured because there is a 93+% probability that I am."

At the one year mark, I don't feel quite 100%.  I sleep 8 or 9 hours
a day and take naps on weekends.  I don't have the stamina that I
used to have but that is improving.  

I take one Aleve/day to help with pee'ing.  I stopped taking flomax
at 6 months and switched to Aleve only.

I don't want to mislead you.  I was *very* lucky.  My primary care
doc has a seeding patient who is catheterized because, otherwise, he
can't pee.  

A few years ago, I was capable of having an orgasm, taking a half
hour break, having another erection, repeat, rinse, repeat.  The
second erection could last a while, half an hour of vigorous
thrusting.  Here's a funny, my ex-wife complained that I "took too
long to come" and she thought that meant "I didn't find her
exciting."  

After we broke up, I met a woman who thought it was "a blessing" to
be able to make love 3 and 4 times in a day, with lengthy sessions
of squealing and hollaring.

Post seeding, I'm barely capable of one erection per week.  I also
don't last 20 or 30 minutes. 2 or 3 minutes is about it now.  But
that might be the Lupron. Donno.

I've noticed a gradual improvement, month over month.  I remain
hopeful.

When I mentioned that erections and orgasms weren't as good, the
rad-doc asked if I was having a problem not lasting very long.  I
gather that this is a common problem.

That's how it looks from here.  I hope that helps.
I. P. Freely - 11 Oct 2005 03:44 GMT
"kh"

> A few years ago, I was capable of having an orgasm, taking a half
> hour break, having another erection, repeat, rinse, repeat.  The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> be able to make love 3 and 4 times in a day, with lengthy sessions
> of squealing and hollaring.

Let me guess . . . .you're 22 years old and retired, right?

I.P.
Alan Meyer - 16 Oct 2005 05:30 GMT
...
> Couple clarifications....
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> shots.  This was a couple months before the 25 IMRT sessions.   A
> year ago, I had 97 Palladium-103 seeds.
...
> After seeding, while on Lupron, I clocked two <0.1 PSA's.  When the
> Lupron wore off, my PSA went to 0.4 and the last test, at the 1 year
> mark, was 1.0.

My experience was similar to yours.  About the same pre-treatment
statistics and very similar treatment.  Mine were HDR seeds instead
of permanent, but I had them with the Lupron and with the 25 sessions
of EBRT.

After 18 months, my PSA has been all over the map, with a low of
.5 and a high of 1.8.  Last was .6.  Your increase from .4 to 1.0
may very well just be a "bounce", not a failure.  Bounces can
apparently take place up to 3 years after seeding.  They are
apparently more common in younger, sexually active men.

Your other post treatment descriptions also parallel mine.  I too
have had some diminution of potency, erections that don't last
as long as before, soft orgasms, a half teaspoon of clear liquid,
the whole thing.  However our pre-treatment condition was certainly
different.  I never had your bedroom athleticism.  The come down
for me has therefore been smaller than yours.

Still, the main thing is, I hope we're cured.

   Alan
Alan Meyer - 09 Oct 2005 22:57 GMT
>I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> After reviewing options, the Dr suggested a brachytherapy (sic) using Palladium 103
> pellets.
...

As others have said, Gleason 5 is very low and indicates a
cancer that is not very aggressive.  Watchful waiting might
be an option - so long as you really watch with frequent PSA
tests.

If you do decide on treatment, all the standard treatments,
including brachytherapy have excellent results for "low risk"
cancers like yours.

Brachytherapy may be the easiest treatment to take.  The
procedure is done in just one day.  You may stay in the hospital
overnight for observation, or may even go home the same day.
Your perineum (the area between the anus and the testicles)
will be sore for a few days to a week, but it shouldn't be severe
and probably won't require any pain medication at all (mine
didn't.)  I had difficulty urinating, leading to getting up frequently
at night, for about 3 months.  The doctors prescribed a drug
called Flowmax that helped a lot with that.

One possible issue is, if you have prostatitis now, you may
still have it afterwards.  You will still have a prostate.  It will
have been radiated, but it's still there and still able to produce
pain.  With radical prostatectomy, you are more likely to eliminate
the prostatitis as well.  So if your prostatitis is severe, ask
your urologist about that issue.

As for the issue of sex - there are subtle changes, but I can't
say that in my case it's better or worse.  It still feels great.

There is a risk with both radiation and surgery of impotence.
A highly skilled radiation oncologist or surgeon can minimize
that risk by careful work, but it is a risk.  However even if you
become impotent, many men here can attest that sex is still
possible and still satisfying.

I personally chose radiation over surgery and (knocking
furiously on wood), so far I'm satisfied with the choice.  Many
other men prefer surgery and there are good reasons for
each choice.

See a surgeon and a radiation oncologist for opinions.  Find
the best ones you can.

Good luck.

    Alan
Steve Kramer - 10 Oct 2005 22:42 GMT
I see you have lots of responses, so I'll be brief for now.  At 62 in good
physical condition, you have all the alternatives at your disposal.  If
"knowing" you're cured, nothing beats having it cut out and having low PSAs
for the next 5 years.  But, clinically, I don't know that either Brachy or
RRP are better in the long run.

One thing is certain, pain is not an issue, even for a whimp.  I still have
the medication I brought home from the hospital.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> j.
Peter Headland - 11 Oct 2005 15:58 GMT
> I still have the medication I brought home from the hospital.

Me too. I gather that talk-radio hosts pay good money for that stuff,
but I don't know any... ;-)

Signature

Peter Headland

Glassman - 12 Oct 2005 02:46 GMT
> > I still have the medication I brought home from the hospital.
>
> Me too. I gather that talk-radio hosts pay good money for that stuff,
> but I don't know any... ;-)

 Ebay?

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

A faint wind, blowing from World's End - 01 Nov 2005 20:49 GMT
> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> j.

brachytherapy is set for Nov. 21st.

j.
Steve Kramer - 01 Nov 2005 22:22 GMT
Good luck, Jerry.  I'll add you to my November 20 prayer list.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
non Illegitimi carborundum

> > I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> j.
Steve U - 02 Nov 2005 00:06 GMT
j.,
You are in my prayers for good results. Waiting to be operated on was
by far the worst part of my PCa scenario. Like was good again soon
after.
Steve U
Ron B - 02 Nov 2005 19:55 GMT
Very best wishes Jerry.

I had surgery but brachy folks can tell you more.

It sounds promising and I don't think it's painful...the other guys can
verify this.

All my best thoughts.

Waiting is the worst, as Steve U said.

You're gonna do great.

Ron B.

Chicago
Tom Cular - 03 Nov 2005 01:51 GMT
Jerry,
I can't comment on the years to come, I'm only 16 mos. post brachytherapy,
look forward to some urinary retention and urgency that will probably peak
around 6-8 weeks after the procedure and then improve. As far as the
procedure is concerned, it's a breeze and the worst is the wait. I was in at
6:30 for a 7:00 Appt. and was looking for my wife to bring me home at 9:00.
A bit tender for a couple of days, but not bad. I believe it was Bev that
mentioned loosly filling a sock with rice (uncooked and conforming) and
freezing it then applying it to the swollen area.It  works!!!

Wish you the best on the 21st.

Tom

>> I had a biospy in Sept.  Results were cancer on two probes, out of 18.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> j.
 
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