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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2005

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SEEDING?

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Reuben Rothstein - 05 Aug 2005 09:31 GMT
Hi All,

I had my RP some months ago in Israel
and so far all is well
My question is for a friend of mine who was just diagnosed with PC.
He is 70 PSA 5 Gleason 3+4=7.
He wants to be treated in the States.
I suggested - that if he goes to the States he should also consider
SEEDING.
I got the impression, from this group, that recovery from seeding is
easier.
What do you guys think?
Which hospital / Professor would you consider as the best in that
procedure?

THANKS
Reuben
kh - 05 Aug 2005 23:29 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> THANKS
> Reuben

First of all, there is no guarentee in this.  I've seen reports from
seed/Rad patients who have had a hard time.

My impression from the message traffic and stats in both pro-surgery
and pro-seed books is that all things considered seeds and rad is a
much easier way to go compared to surgery.  

That was my personal experience but that's only one sample.

As for the medical facility, I went to Inova, In Northern Virginia.
They have a radiation oncology department that is top notch.
However, there are many, many hospitals that have excellent
reputations for success with Rad so you have a choice of
several dozen.

Whatever you friend choses, I wish him well.
I. P. Freely - 05 Aug 2005 23:54 GMT
>> I got the impression, from this group, that recovery from seeding is
>> easier [than from surgery].
>> What do you guys think?

Immediate medical recovery, sure. But that's among the least -- certainly
the shortest-lived -- of the measures of success or failure.

I.P.
Gordy - 05 Aug 2005 23:46 GMT
May I put in a vote for Morristown (NJ)  Memorial Hospital?  Their
equipment is about as state of the art as you can get and the doctors
are top notch.  I have 4 radiation treatments to go (total of 25) and
will undergo HDR brachytherapy at the end of the month.

I did a lot of research and got many "2nd opinions" before making my
choice.

-Gordy
Alan Meyer - 06 Aug 2005 04:05 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> THANKS
> Reuben

I am far from an expert so please take my opinion with
many grains of salt.

Gleason 7 is considered to be "intermediate" risk.  Seeding
by itself as a "monotherapy" is thought to be most appropriate
for "low" risk patients, i.e., Gleason below 7, PSA below 10.

The radiation oncologists I spoke to recommended a combination
of seeding plus external beam radiation, possibly combined with
hormone therapy - that's the combination I opted for.

The theory is that with Gleason 7, there is more chance of
extra prostatic extensions of the tumor, and external beam
radiation can treat those because it also treats the
area immediately around the prostate bed.

My personal experience with a combination of high dose
rate brachytherapy (temporary, very "hot" seeds) plus EBRT
plus hormone therapy was positive.  The biggest side effects
were from the hormones.  I had some difficulty urinating
after treatment, some hemmorhoids, some skin burn, but
no incontinence and only a small effect on sexual potency.
However your friend's mileage may vary.

I missed very few days of work, and had little risk of the
surgical complications that can come from prostatectomy.

Seeds by themselves are probably the easiest treatment to
take.  You are generally in the hospital for one day only.  The
side effects are low.  But a more complicated therapy may
be desirable for your friend.  He should discuss these
issues with a radiation oncologist, and probably also
see a surgeon to learn about his surgical options.

I was treated in a clinical trial at the U.S. National
Cancer Institute - which may not be an option for your
friend.

Good luck.

   Alan
Reuben Rothstein - 06 Aug 2005 11:44 GMT
THANKS

>I am far from an expert so please take my opinion with
>many grains of salt.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
>    Alan
Steve Kramer - 06 Aug 2005 21:24 GMT
Unless your friend is in poor physical shape, the recovery from prostate
surgery is probably not a good criterion for deciding between surgery and
radiation.

However, I believe that quicker recovery is a fact.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> THANKS
> Reuben
I. P. Freely - 06 Aug 2005 22:29 GMT
Define "recovery". Walking comfortably? Sports? Continence/potence? Total
freedom from SEs? 20/20 eyesight and ripped abs? Playing Rach 5 with the
left foot?
THEN maybe one can assess which is more important . . . recovery time,
survival time, QOL, etc.

I.P.

> Unless your friend is in poor physical shape, the recovery from prostate
> surgery is probably not a good criterion for deciding between surgery and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> easier.
>> What do you guys think?
Reuben Rothstein - 07 Aug 2005 06:14 GMT
Recovery for a 70 years old man from a medical procedure is:

a) Curing the problem - in this case to come out cancer free
b) Return to the same shape level which he was in prior to the
procedure

>Define "recovery". Walking comfortably? Sports? Continence/potence? Total
>freedom from SEs? 20/20 eyesight and ripped abs? Playing Rach 5 with the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>> easier.
>>> What do you guys think?
I. P. Freely - 07 Aug 2005 07:42 GMT
That changes the picture significantly. The previous answers have addressed
primarily the quicker return to ambulatory status, with little regard to
cure, long-term SEs, etc.

I.P.

> Recovery for a 70 years old man from a medical procedure is:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>THEN maybe one can assess which is more important . . . recovery time,
>>survival time, QOL, etc.
Beverley - 08 Aug 2005 18:09 GMT
The Massey Cancer Center in Richmond, Virginia will only seed with a Gleason
6 or less. That seems to be the norm but there is some new thinking that
allows men with Gleason 7 to have seeds (brachytherapy). It is usually done
with some external beam (EBRT) and possibly some hormone blocker (HT) for a
few months to a year or so.

The external beam is minor. Jump on the table for a few minutes while you
listen to the clicking of the machine around you. Hop down and go live your
life. The seeds are going to make you a couch potato for about 3 days. You
might feel fine but you need to stay quiet so that you do not accidentally
dislodge a seed. The EBRT should be done on an IMRT machine to protect other
organs in the area.

The normal side effects (SE) of such treatment is usually tiredness. I'm
talking about taking a nap or going to bed a little earlier. The only thing
I've ever heard in the way of SE that would prevent someone from considering
seeding is if they are horse jockeys or competitive bikers, something about
slamming that part of you body over the long haul with seeds in there, so
they have to give it up for about a year if they decide to have
brachytherapy.

The other normal side effect is difficulty urinating after seeding. The
prostate tends to swell and it make urinating very difficult. There are meds
for it and they do help. Aside from that there is very little trouble.

Most seedings are done as an out patient and the patient does not have a
catheter when leaving the hospital. Often the hardest part is staying quiet
for a few days after the seeds are placed.

There is no perfect treatment and they all have their drawbacks and SE's.

If you have any specific questions you are welcome to email me.
Bev

> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> THANKS
> Reuben
Alan Meyer - 09 Aug 2005 04:07 GMT
> The Massey Cancer Center in Richmond, Virginia will only seed with a Gleason
> 6 or less. That seems to be the norm but there is some new thinking that
> allows men with Gleason 7 to have seeds (brachytherapy). It is usually done
> with some external beam (EBRT) and possibly some hormone blocker (HT) for a
> few months to a year or so.
> ...

One rad onc I consulted about my Gleason 7 cancer offered me
EBRT alone, or EBRT plus seeds - all with HT.  Like the Massey
Center, he did not suggest seeds alone for Gleason 7.

When I asked him which was better - straight EBRT or EBRT
plus seeds he said there wasn't enough scientific evidence to
say for sure.  So far, the evidence looked about the same for
each of them.  But when his father-in-law got PCa, he gave
him EBRT plus seeds.

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 09 Aug 2005 11:20 GMT
> So far, the evidence looked about the same for
> each of them.  But when his father-in-law got PCa, he gave
> him EBRT plus seeds.

Did he get along with his father-in-law?
Alan Meyer - 09 Aug 2005 22:26 GMT
> > So far, the evidence looked about the same for
> > each of them.  But when his father-in-law got PCa, he gave
> > him EBRT plus seeds.
>
> Did he get along with his father-in-law?

I didn't think to ask him that!

When my dentist tells me I won't need novocaine for
what he's about to do, and then giggles maniacally,
should I wonder if he likes me or not?

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 09 Aug 2005 23:18 GMT
> > > So far, the evidence looked about the same for
> > > each of them.  But when his father-in-law got PCa, he gave
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> what he's about to do, and then giggles maniacally,
> should I wonder if he likes me or not?

When he approaches to drill, reach over and grab his balls.  For some reason
dentists tend to tell the truth about pain when you got a good grip on their
balls.
Beverley - 10 Aug 2005 03:46 GMT
I'll remember to do that the next time I go to the dentist.
ROTFL
Bev

> When he approaches to drill, reach over and grab his balls.  For some reason
> dentists tend to tell the truth about pain when you got a good grip on their
> balls.
 
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