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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2005

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Amm - 29 Jul 2005 13:58 GMT
Hello everyone

I posted about 18 months ago, about my husband. Age the 59 PSA 4.7 brother
died of PC aged 62

Hubby had 12 core biopsy, all clear, PSA every 6 months steadily climbing,
latest 7.8 add 12 core biopsy 2 weeks ago
Meeting with the Urologist in 2 weeks for results

In the meantime, he has started complaining of pains in his legs (as had
back pain for some years on and off) also he is having several bowel
movements a day, today 4 up to lunch time.

Could this be connected
Would appreciate your comments

Regards
Douwe - 29 Jul 2005 14:33 GMT
"Amm" <amm@fittodrop.co.uk>wrote...
> Hello everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Regards

If I tell you 'Yes' than you are in panic and if I say 'no' you wouldn't
trust me.
The Urologist is about the bladder and prostate and willy problems,
others are responsable for back pain and/or pain in the legs, so it is
very wise to ask your doctor for some check-up in the same hospital as
where the urologist works. That would be sensible.

Now my truth: I do have protate cancer, pain in the back and pain in the
legs, feet, hips, bladder, guts, lungs and nose and yes, there is a
connection. You see why my advise is as I wrote? Hurry, please.

Wish you and your hubby all the best and some help from above.

Douwe
Leonard Evens - 29 Jul 2005 16:06 GMT
> "Amm" <amm@fittodrop.co.uk>wrote...
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Douwe

As I think you have indicated, such symptoms are not usually symptoms of
early prostate cancer.  If he had prostate cancer advanced enough to
cause such symptoms, it is highly unlikely that it would have been
missed in a biopsy.
Alan Meyer - 30 Jul 2005 00:28 GMT
>>> In the meantime, he has started complaining of pains in his legs (as
>>> had
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cause such symptoms, it is highly unlikely that it would have been
> missed in a biopsy.

I'm not a doctor and my opinion is based purely on small amounts
of reading.  Your doctor is the best guide for this kind of info.

But I agree with Leonard on this.  Back and leg pain can be a symptom
of advanced, metastatic prostate cancer, but not of early, localized
cancer.  In order to cause pain the cancer has to get into the bones
and grow enough to put pressure on things.  That's a very advanced
cancer, and all of those cancer cells will usually put out a great
deal of PSA.

I have known men with PSA = 300 that still didn't yet have any pain.

So even if your husband has cancer and the biopsies haven't found
it yet, it's likely to be very small and localized and totally
unrelated to the pains he's experienced.

    Alan
Leonard Evens - 29 Jul 2005 16:04 GMT
> Hello everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Could this be connected
> Would appreciate your comments

It seems unlikely that prostate cancer has anything to do with either
problem.  In connection with the rising PSA, perhaps he should ask his
doctor about a free PSA test, which can sometimes help distinguish
prostate cancer from other benign conditions.  It might reduce the need
for additional biopsies.

The pains in his legs are more likely associated with his spine.  That
is not life threatening like prostate cancer, but it can certainly cause
a lot of pain and disprut one's life.  He should see his doctor about it
and possibly be referred to someone who speicalizes in the treatment of
such disorders.  These problems are very common.  It is estimated that
80 percent of the population will have a significant back problem some
time in life.  But they can be dealt with by doing appropriate exercises
and learning how to do daily tasks without aggravating the condition.
In some cases , pain killers can be helpful.  I've had such problems for
years, and now have four herniated discs and spinal stenosis.  Yet
through an appropriate exercise program I've managed to live a pain-free
relatively normal life.

The bowel movements might be connected to the biopsy.  Usually the
rectal wall heals pretty quickly, but there might be some special
problem.  Many people have hemmorhoids and they can be excacerbated by a
procedure like a biopsy.  He should discuss this with his urologist and
perhaps also with his primary care physician.  In any event, while it
needs attention,  the chances are it isn't anything too serious and can
be treated.

Good luck.

> Regards
c palmer - 29 Jul 2005 17:09 GMT
From: amm@fittodrop.co.uk (Amm)

Hello everyone
I posted about 18 months ago, about my husband. Age the 59 PSA 4.7
brother died of PC aged 62
Hubby had 12 core biopsy, all clear, PSA every 6 months steadily
climbing, latest 7.8 add 12 core biopsy 2 weeks ago Meeting with the
Urologist in 2 weeks for results In the meantime, he has started
complaining of pains in his legs (as had back pain for some years on and
off) also he is having several bowel movements a day, today 4 up to
lunch time. Could this be connected
Would appreciate your comments
Regards
==============
hi - there are some things that should be mentioned at this point.

back pain, bowel movements, leg pain - all could be due to prostatitis
also. he's at the age where 75% of the men have prostate stones. these
of calcium deposits caused by prostate infections that the male didn't
know he had.

he could have BPH also. the gland could be swollen and enlarged. this
condition also causes the psa to rise as well and maybe bowel symptoms.

what i'm pointing out is that the prostate has served him well for 59
years and when it starts going sour, it causes all kinds of symptoms.
since it is near the intestinal wall, some of these symptoms could be
triggered as the food passes through the colon and pushes on the
prostate as it goes by.

does this mean he has prostate cancer. not necessary.

but the rise in psa is something that needs to be addressed. a prostate
infection could certainly cause a rise in the psa. clearly the psa level
is above the cutoff point..

another test to do would be the free psa test. if that number is below
25, then it would indicate that there is a probability of prostate
cancer could be developing.

bottom line - it's time to really get down to see what's causing the
rising psa and address it from there.

hope this info helps.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Stephen Jordan - 29 Jul 2005 20:02 GMT
On July 29, Curtis Palmer replied to Amm, in pertinent part:

(snip)

> another test to do would be the free psa test. if that number is below
> 25, then it would indicate that there is a probability of prostate
> cancer could be developing.
>
> bottom line - it's time to really get down to see what's causing the
> rising psa and address it from there.

There is also a simple blood test that is too often neglected: prostatic
acid phosphatase (PAP). As in the case of the PSA test, at least five weeks
should elapse after biopsy before drawing the blood specimen (Strum).

This test is designed to give the patient and medic an idea of the post-tx
risk of biochemical failure, PSA recurrence, and the likelihood that the PCa
is beyond the margins of the gland. The cutpoint is equal to or less than
3.0 ng/mL. For example, if the result is >3.0, the probability of PSA
recurrence after RP is almost triple that of men whose baseline PAP was at
or below 3.0. See Moul et al. The contemporary value of pretreatment
prostatic acid phosphatase to predict pathological stage and recurrence in
radical prostatectomy cases. J Urol. 1998 Mar;159(3):935-940. PMID 9474187.

At this point the above is only of intellectual interest, as Amm's husband
has not yet been dx'd with PCa. However, it might be useful to others, and
I thought that this was as good a time as any to mention it.

I wonder whether anything other than biopsies has been done. For example,
has the gland volume been measured? Has an antibiotic (e.g. Cipro) been
prescribed in case of infection? In short, what is being done to *rule out*
PCa?

Regards,

Steve J

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result
of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every
victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy
nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
--Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
c palmer - 29 Jul 2005 21:34 GMT
From: mycroftscj@earthlink.net (Stephen Jordan)

There is also a simple blood test that is too often neglected: prostatic
acid phosphatase (PAP). As in the case of the PSA test, at least five
weeks should elapse after biopsy before drawing the blood specimen
(Strum).
This test is designed to give the patient and medic an idea of the
post-tx risk of biochemical failure, PSA recurrence, and the likelihood
that the PCa is beyond the margins of the gland. The cutpoint is equal
to or less than 3.0 ng/mL. For example, if the result is >3.0, the
probability of PSA recurrence after RP is almost triple that of men
whose baseline PAP was at or below 3.0. See Moul et al. The contemporary
value of pretreatment prostatic acid phosphatase to predict pathological
stage and recurrence in radical prostatectomy cases. J Urol. 1998
Mar;159(3):935-940. PMID 9474187.
At this point the above is only of intellectual interest, as Amm's
husband has not yet been dx'd with PCa. However, it might be useful to
others, and I thought that this was as good a time as any to mention it.
I wonder whether anything other than biopsies has been done. For
example, has the gland volume been measured? Has an antibiotic (e.g.
Cipro) been prescribed in case of infection? In short, what is being
done to *rule out* PCa?
Regards,
Steve J
=========very good point steve - in fact, if one was to use the psa, free psa,
total psa, pap, biopsy, they should have a good handle as to what's
going on inside their body.  

but for some of the people who claim one test - such as one psa reading
as the total answer regarding as to whether it can tell if an individual
has pca is really reaching.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Steve Kramer - 30 Jul 2005 17:01 GMT
I imagine that it might be connected to PSA increase, but proabably
connected to prostate cancer.  In order to have pains like that from cancer,
he'd have to be riddled with it and no biopsy would miss it.

Maybe it's BHP... or maybe it's coincidence.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Hello everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Regards
Dan Reynolds - 09 Aug 2005 23:56 GMT
My bet would be siatica, or some spinal process related to that.
The leg pain (not further specified) and frequent bowel movements - has
he lost control...or it could be just related to the biopsy.
best of luck,
DanR

> Hello everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Regards
 
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