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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2005

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FreePSA testing

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Dick Smith - 16 Jul 2005 16:53 GMT
When is the earliest one can get a fPSA test done? If one were to get
it done with their yearly regular PSA testing, would it be able to help
detect PC sooner?
Peter Headland - 16 Jul 2005 18:36 GMT
> When is the earliest one can get a fPSA test done?

Any time you want to pay for it - just like PSA, there is no age limit.
See below for comments about its usefulness if you have nice low PSA
levels.

> would it be able to help detect PC sooner?

Maybe, for a few people. It is said not be be meaningful unless PSA is
somewhat elevated in the first place.

Recent research suggests that it is better to have an annual PSA test
from age 40 if you feel you are at risk, or 40, 45 then annually from
50 if you have no risk factors, and track for trends in the readings.
For example, PSA of 0.9 one year that has risen to 1.8 the following
year would get me worried, even though both numbers are (SFAIR) below
the threshold for using fPSA.

Looking at some other recent research, I am beginning to think that
*every* man should be screened at 5 year intervals from age 30 and
maybe at least biannually from 40. Absolute PSA values are not a very
reliable indicator one way or the other; trend is much more useful. Of
course, we all hope that some of the newer tests that are in the
pipeline (DNA marker based, etc.) will be more reliable (and eliminate
the need for biopsies, which can often miss cancer).

Signature

Peter Headland

Dick Smith - 16 Jul 2005 18:59 GMT
Peter, thanks for the reply. I am at risk.

I asked this because on page 114 in Walsh's book he states:
"New evidence shows that free psa can predict which tumors will be
aggressive and need to be treated as soon as possible, several years
before total or "regular" PSA tests can even spot cancer.

Also
"The recent Johns Hopkins study, led by urologist H. Carter compared
bloood samples from men who developed prostate cancer to men who did
not and found that fifteen years before cancer was dx, all of the men
who turned out to have aggressive prostate tumors had levels of free
PSA that were lower than 15 percent. Men with slower growing
nonaggressive cancer all had free PSA levels greater than 15 percent."

So I'm not really sure what to make of this. It sounds like Walsh is
saying that fPSA is recommended because it can determine aggressive
tumors before regular PSA can even spot the cancer.

I'm sorta confused here and not sure what to make of these paragraphs
by Walsh.
wasone2 - 16 Jul 2005 21:29 GMT
Free PSA test is what caught my cancer and should be considered by anyone
before a biosy. My total PSA went from 2.0 to 3.1 in 16 months and the
free PSA was 14%. Then a biopsy showed 4 of 10 cores positive. My doctor
would not have recommended a biopsy if the free PSA was greater than 25%.

I also learned that not all labs can do a free PSA, if the total PSA is
below 4.0. A prior lab showed my PSA at 3.4 and NORMAL, and stated they
can't do a free PSA below 4.0, as my doctor had requested. It is too bad
PSA velocity and free PSA are not more publicized. Sad.
Stephen Jordan - 16 Jul 2005 22:20 GMT
> I asked this because on page 114 in Walsh's book he states: "New
> evidence shows that free psa can predict which tumors will be
> aggressive and need to be treated as soon as possible, several years
> before total or "regular" PSA tests can even spot cancer.

Just to further complicate matters, it should be borne in mind that fPSA is
a *component* of PSA -- a percentage. Therefore, it cannot be considered
apart from "regular" PSA. Strum, in _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_
vol. 1, page 39, agrees with Walsh, "Lower free PSA percentages, in
multiple studies, have been shown to correlate with greater risk for
non-organ-confined PC."

My understanding of the above is that, if fPSA is >15% (here, he agrees
with Walsh), Strum clearly and unequivocally states that there is a risk
that the PCa has  already escaped the gland. This is substantially
different from being a reliable marker for *the mere existence* of PCa.

Reading this portion of the book leads me to conclude that Strum believes
that PSADT (PSA doubling time) and PSAV (PSA velocity) are, as he puts it,
"...clues to significant biological changes that indicate malignancy"
and of greater importance than fPSA. The latter is, "...a useful tool to
evaluate patients with pretreatment PSAs in the 4 to 10 range and even at
lower total PSA levels ranging from 2.51to 4.0 ng/mL."

I wouldn't ignore it, but by the same token wouldn't put a great deal of
confidence in it as a single marker, especially when the patient has
already been diagnosed with PCa.

> Also "The recent Johns Hopkins study, led by urologist H. Carter
> compared bloood samples from men who developed prostate cancer to men
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> growing nonaggressive cancer all had free PSA levels greater than 15
>  percent."

Does Walsh give a citation for this? I'd like to read it.

> So I'm not really sure what to make of this. It sounds like Walsh is
> saying that fPSA is recommended because it can determine aggressive
> tumors before regular PSA can even spot the cancer.

Respectfully disagree. What it can do is give the patient one clue as to
whether the PCa has escaped the gland. It is necessary to bear in mind that,
as above noted, fPSA is *a component* of PSA, which in the main consists
of complexed PSA (associated with PCa) and free PSA (Strum, p. 37).

> I'm sorta confused here and not sure what to make of these paragraphs
>  by Walsh.

Fundamentally, it appears to me that Walsh errs by considering fPSA in a
vacuum, not as one piece of clinical evidence in the investigation of the
biology of the tumor under consideration.

There, I've disagreed with The Great Walsh, and will probably be
criticized for it. In my defense, I'll point out that it is Strum who
disagrees.

Fundamentally, it seems to me that fPSA has recently -- at least on this
NG -- been assigned an importance that is greater than it should be. I
think that it should be considered along with other markers, not standing
alone.

BTW, while checking references, I found the following item of interest on
page 38 of Strum's book: "...prostatitis can result in low free PSA
percentages that make laboratory distinction from PC treacherous." Hmmm.

Regards,

Steve J

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result
of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every
victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the
enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
--Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
Peter Headland - 17 Jul 2005 01:17 GMT
Agree with all that you wote, but there was one typo: "if fPSA is >15%"
should be "if fPSA is <15%". FWIW, my fPSA was around 16% and I ended
up diagnosed with what so far appears to be organ-confined PCa (but who
knows what happiness my next PSA test will bring into my life).

Signature

Peter Headland

Stephen Jordan - 17 Jul 2005 02:12 GMT
On July 16, Peter Headland responded to me:

> Agree with all that you wote, but there was one typo: "if fPSA is >15%"
> should be "if fPSA is <15%".

(snip)

Ack! Ack! Ack!

Steve J

;-(
Peter Headland - 17 Jul 2005 01:23 GMT
> pretreatment PSAs in the 4 to 10 range and even at
> lower total PSA levels ranging from 2.51to 4.0 ng/mL.

FWIW, now I am better educated in this game, if I were 40 and had a PSA
of 3.0 I would be asking for a biopsy. At age 70 I would probably be
delighted with the same PSA. Bottom line, there is no safe level of
PSA, it's just a risk factor. That is why the medical world needs to
get much better at using fPSA, PSAV, etc. That is why we need earlier
and more regular screening for younger men. That is why we need better
tests than PSA and fPSA.

Signature

Peter Headland

 
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