Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2005
Visit to incontinence specialist.
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David S. - 14 Jul 2005 12:26 GMT Yesterday had the appointment with the urologist who specializes in male and female incontinence. I was told a lot yesterday that I had never heard before, so get a cup of coffee and read on. Remember I am not advocating, just reporting as best I can what I was told. This doctor has been at Duke for 30 years and did his first artificial sphincter implant in 1974 if I remember correctly. He has performed over 1,000 of these operations, so I guess you can call him experienced. You can probably guess his recommendation, but he went into why each therapy option would not likely work for me. Chapter One. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...sorry, wrong book. Chapter One. The Kegel god is dead. He told me that the Kegel exercises were normally effective for men with lower level leakage. I don't think he quoted an exact figure, but I left with the impression of something less than 50 ml per day. According to their measurements I was leaking 120 ml per day. I had to keep a "Bladder Diary" for three days prior to the visit to record the volume of each void and each time I leaked with an estimate of low, medium, or high. I also had to bring in my soiled pads from 24 hours before the visit. I felt that what I brought in was a "normal day" for me, so I think the estimate was probably on target. Anyway, he said the Kegels would not help me because of the degree of leakage. Collagen injections. He said that this too was not likely to help me for two reasons. One, the degree of leakage was to great, and two, the effectiveness of this therapy was not good. It helps some men, for others it does nothing. Just not a reliable therapy for my case. The "Sling". Which one? Now there are two. He just returned from Austria where he observed four operations using the new procedure. The old one involves stapling tissue, artificial or tissue from your own body, to the pubic bone in order to compress the urethra. This was also not effective for leakage over 100 ml, and the basic procedure, like the collagen injections, did not have a high success rate. However, this new procedure, also called the "sling" in order to guarantee confusion in the future, has a different approach. Instead of compressing the urethra it supports the sphincter in the natural position that it would have had before the RRP. Here he told me something I have never heard before. As we know the sphincter at the base of the bladder is destroyed in the RRP. However, the remaining sphincter is partly in the prostate, so it is damaged when the organ is removed. We are left with a damaged sphincter to start off with. He also explained that the prostate supported that sphincter, and after it is removed it is positioned differently and the current thought is that this contributes to the incontinence. Between the damage to the sphincter and the positioning it is remarkable that anyone is fully continent after RRP. Anyway, this new "sling" procedure puts the tissue in so that it repositions the sphincter and supposedly that will help it to return to normal function. There have been only a few of these performed so far, all in Europe, so obviously it will be a long time before we know if this is an effective alternative. So, no Kegels, no collagen, no slings. What is left (he never talked about the clamp)? The artificial sphincter (I suppose he uses the AMS 800, but he never said that explicitly). It is an outpatient procedure. The insurance here covers it. They put it in and wait a month for healing before activating the device. It has an expected life of 10 years (it is a mechanical device, so it will wear out eventually) although he has patients that have had one in for 15. There are two main complications. Mechanical failure earlier than expected. He had one fail as early as 15 weeks. Fixing it involves removing the device. Time for the tissues to heal. Then reimplant a new one. Failure rate for that is around 2.5% for experienced surgeons. The second failure is when the urethra is damaged by the compression device. Again, that involves removal, time for healing, and reimplantation with the compression device at a different location. And, that failure rate is also around 2.5%. He was clear that men with the artificial sphincter often do still wear a pad of some kind because there can still be some leakage. He said most of his patients wear "panty liners" and not the absorbent pads like I now wear. He also said the leakage was just drops, nothing like what I now have. I have read here that some of you leak some, but do not wear a pad because it is not bad enough to show through. Oh, on the cysto they did find that I do have scar tissue at the anastomosis. He said the opening is about a third the size that it should be and that he would fix that during the surgery if I elect to have it. The opening looked nice and round, no rough edges, just smaller that what it should be. Due to the small opening they were not able to put in the catheter to do the urodymanics test. They do that to test the pressures in the bladder. He also said that the smaller opening was not the cause of my leaking (but why not have that fixed first, and then see if it helps the incontinence?). The sphincter was clear and normal by the way. No sign of damage or deformity. I think that is it. I did not mean to be so long winded, but he told me a lot during this visit and I wanted to get down as much as I could remember. I figured that some of this would be of interest to present and future members of the leakers club. Will I have the surgery? Do not know. I am not anxious to have yet another operation, but I admit that this is seductive. On Monday I had a bad leakage day and did not heed the call of the drooping drawers and ended up wetting my pants (at home at least, not at work). Tuesday was a more normal one pad day. On the internet what I have read indicates that the surgical alternative is for men with "type 3 stress incontinence". Not sure what that means, but it sounds like bad leaking. Is one pad a day "type 3"? I will contact my primary care doc and the uro that did the RRP to ask for an opinion. The wife is not happy about me going under the knife again. Cost does not appear to be an issue, but I will confirm with Blue Cross that they will pay for this. And, if I go that far, do I go all the way and get the penile implant too? Do they have a remote control for these devices so you do not have to go around digging in the groin looking for the buttons to push? What happens if you have to pee real bad and you push the erection button instead? Do you piss on your shirt? Getting off topic here, aren't I. Why is it not Friday. Oh, another damn Harry Potter book comes out tomorrow. God help me. The wife wanted to be at Barnes and Noble at midnight to get her copy. Curtis, what am I going to do??? Hope some of the above is of value to other men with the incontinence. Thank you. David S.
Ron B - 14 Jul 2005 15:27 GMT David, that was a GREAT report.
Not too long...as it had a LOT of good info.
2 things struck me:
First, since I've never measured...I would have thought that 4 ounces (120 ml) of leaking in 24 hours was not a tremendous amount.
Not something you'd WANT, but with various little squirts and leaks...I would have thought that about 4 ounces total for 24 hours was reasonable.
Reasonable...not desirable mind you.
Guess not.
On second thought...maybe a few teaspoons 10 times a day ISN'T ideal.
:-( And second...was the damaged sphincter you referred to the 'pelvic floor' muscle?
I thought that there were 3 'stoppers' in men and the first 2 were removed during the surgery.
I know that you'll get some great feedback here to help you with your choices.
Thanks so much for reporting,
Ron B.
Chicago
David S. - 14 Jul 2005 16:32 GMT Ron:
What I read is that the prostate itself serves as kind of a sphincter, i.e., the tissue around the urethra is muscular and apparently it can serve to restrict urine flow. At least that is what I read. The one at the pelvic floor is the one remaining after RRP.
I agree with what you said about the 120 ml's. I really did not think that this was a large quantity, especially compared to the 4-5 pads per day that I had for months after the surgery. If I were still leaking that much I would be begging for the surgery. With 1-3 pads per day, 3 on weekends when I am more active, it makes it a much tougher decision (at least for me).
Thank you.
David
judamd@aol.com - 14 Jul 2005 15:47 GMT Thanks for all the information. I too, as you know, am a leaker (two years tomorrow since surgery) averaging one pad per day. I've not been particularly concerned about the leaking, to me it's a a part of life and I haven't wet my pants in well over a year now and considering the SE's of prior surgeries, I'm not at all inclined to go under the knife again. Just have to be vigilant with the pads. I am concerned about something coming up Saturday. I've been asked to sit in as a trombonist in a local community band's concert. Their "uniform" consists of light tan colored pants (in crisis mode I wear black) and it is unlikely I will be near a bathroom for about 4 hours. In addition there will be two pieces where the trombones have to play standing up at the front of the stage. The concert is outside and it is likely to be about 100 degrees so maybe everyone will think it's perspiration. Wish me luck.
I was amused by your suggestion of a remote control for the penile implant. I assume there will be a built in code, otherwise your neighbor could cause you some concern every time he raises his garage door or changes channels on his TV. :))
Again, many thanks for the update on this leaking business. Dave Perry
David S. - 14 Jul 2005 16:36 GMT Hi Dave Perry!
My uro referred me to this guy when I inquired about the penile clamp. There's one out there now that costs forty bucks or so according to my neighbor who uses one (he declined the implant and is happy with the clamp). Some here have reported using that to play golf for example. You may want to try that for an activity like you will be taking part in this weekend. Just a thought.
Good luck!
David
> Thanks for all the information. I too, as you know, am a leaker (two > years tomorrow since surgery) averaging one pad per day. I've not been [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Again, many thanks for the update on this leaking business. > Dave Perry J Brady - 17 Jul 2005 03:22 GMT Hi All-- I've been a "leaker" also since my RRP in April '03. Tried kegels with no effect so after a year+ of wearing pads - Depends, 30 to a package - and using 2 - 4 a day, I switched to male catheters, also called Texas catheters I guess. The brand I use is UltraFlex made by Rochester Medical. The leg bag is made by Hollister. They are Medicare reimbursable. I switched because I just couldn't stand the wet and heavy feeling anymore. I wear the leg bag on the inside of my thigh, or the inside of my lower leg, depending on whether I am wearing shorts or not. I do have to wear baggier pants or longer shorts than I used to. I've been using these 25 days out of the month for the last year+. I wear a depends overnight.
I have a question regarding the various clamps on the market. My Willie, as I'm sure everyone else's too, changes size throughout the day -- erotic thoughts, cold weather, etc. - does one have to adjust the device then, for each change in size?
Jim B
> Hi Dave Perry! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > David J Brady - 17 Jul 2005 17:21 GMT I should have said male external catheters.
> Hi All-- I've been a "leaker" also since my RRP in April '03. Tried kegels with > no effect so after a year+ of wearing pads - Depends, 30 to a package - and > using 2 - 4 a day, I switched to male catheters, David S. - 15 Jul 2005 11:57 GMT Hi Dave: I am glad that I went to see this guy. I felt that I did learn a lot. It was probably worth the copay to walk away guilt free for not doing kegel exercises every day (ha). As to the surgery, I do not know. I also am not anxious to have yet another surgery, and I am still thinking that my degree of leakage is not great. I remember the months where I had to change every four hours or risk wet pants. If I were still there I would have the implant for sure. And I almost always were black pants since the RRP. Once I made the mistake of wearing light colored trousers. That day I went home early. Embarrassing! Take care. Thank you. David
> Thanks for all the information. I too, as you know, am a leaker (two > years tomorrow since surgery) averaging one pad per day. I've not been [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Again, many thanks for the update on this leaking business. > Dave Perry Heather - 15 Jul 2005 01:12 GMT Hi David....
> Chapter One. The Kegel god is dead. He told me that the Kegel > exercises were normally effective for men with lower level leakage. For women, there has always been a great controversy on Kegels. They didn't work for me....but might work for someone else. It surprises me that the doctors constantly recommend them to you men. By the way, in the incontinence department, men and women are the same.
> The "Sling". Which one? Now there are two. He just returned from > Austria where he observed four operations using the new procedure. However, this new
> procedure, also called the "sling" in order to guarantee confusion in the > future, has a different approach. Instead of compressing the urethra it > supports the sphincter in the natural position that it would have had before the RRP.
> Anyway, this new "sling" procedure puts the tissue in so that it repositions > the sphincter and supposedly that will help it to return to normal function. > There have been only a few of these performed so far, all in Europe, so > obviously it will be a long time before we know if this is an effective > alternative. Thanks to someone on this group (a pharmacist I believe) who had a sling done I believe, I asked Ron's Urologist 2 years ago if there was anything like that for women. The old operation is only about 50% effective and is major surgery.
Yes.....they are having great success with what they call TVT.....trans vaginal taping. This is exactly the same type of procedure as what he is talking about for men. Just a piece of tape which supports the urethra and it is a 40 minute Day Surgery job.
I have looked into it, but am not keen on having any sort of surgery or procedure done unless it is absolutely needed!! I am that 1 in 100 people who falls under the heading "Murphy's Law". (G)
Don't know how it is situated with a man, but the brochure I have shows it to be a pretty simple set-up for women.
Cheers.....Heather
I. P. Freely - 15 Jul 2005 03:18 GMT When you guys talk about "pads", are you referring to 1) a little minimalist swatch of absorbent cloth, 2) the thick 6"-8"pad one sticks inside a pair of jockey shorts, or 3) a Depends diaper? 120ml/4 oz I can relate to, but a "padfull" could be quite misleading as a criterion for abandoning Kegels as hopeless. My uro keeps harping about the Kegels, almost as though this is my fault if I don't do hundreds of Kegels daily. I have days my Depends stays virtually dry for 24 hours, days I soak a real live Depends, and days it just runs out of my wetsuit constantly all day while at full physical exertion and total mental concentration (sure glad my hobby isn't basketball!).
If your 50ml/1.5oz threshold is even ballpark, I'd have to guess I'm over this most days, significantly so when wandering about all day. I'd sure like to have my uro talk to or look at any publications from your incontinence doc. I'm tired of feeling guilty when I don't pucker 100 times a day.
I.P.
David S. - 15 Jul 2005 11:44 GMT Hi I.P.: I did the Kegels after the catheter was removed, but when I returned to work, I was out 5 weeks, things were busy, you know how it goes, and I just never thought about doing them. When I walk the dog, if I think about it, I do some, but it is not regular enough to really be helpful. I have the doctor's physicians assistant's phone number. I will call him and ask if there is anything published that would back up what I was told about the Kegels and the 50 ml (or so) limit. Remember too that there is not uniformity on how to do the Kegel exercises. The first article that I read said that if you are moving the rectum you are using the wrong set of muscles. Just a month or so ago I saw something in writing that explicitly said to squeeze the muscles around the rectum. Some say do several sets of 10 or 20 each, maybe three times per day. Others say do a hundred once a day. And, I have also seen, this on the net, that doing Kegels means to start and stop the stream while urinating. So, who is to say? We are all probably doing something different when we say we are doing "Kegels". Yes, you are right about the pad. In my case I just got in the habit of using the Depends Guards. They are second from the top on the Depends scale of absorbency. It takes a lot to fill that sucker up. Then I have seen here guys that just use a couple paper towels or that cut a large pad in half to make it go twice as far. On the huge variation in the leakage, this doc said that was in fact normal for incontinence. I have the same experience. One day when I get ready for bed I throw away a pad that, although soiled, is light as a feather. Not much leakage for the entire day. Then, like Monday of this week, about 5:30 P.M. I find that my pants are wet. I was not aware that I was leaking a lot that day, and the pad was full (heavy and "yellow tail"). I will call the doctor's office and ask about reference on the Kegels. Have a good (dry) day. Thank you. David
> When you guys talk about "pads", are you referring to 1) a little minimalist > swatch of absorbent cloth, 2) the thick 6"-8"pad one sticks inside a pair of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I.P. A Sherman - 17 Jul 2005 20:19 GMT "I. P. Freely" wrote...
> ......... My uro keeps harping about the Kegels, almost as though this is my > fault if I don't do hundreds of Kegels daily. My uro takes the opposite tack. He says don't bother with Kegels, just exercise the sphincter by stopping, starting, stopping, starting while urinating. That way you absolutely know you are exercising the correct muscle and know whether you are effective or not.
I have been doing this for a few weeks. Initially, there was increased leakage that I attributed to fatigue. I think I have recovered beyond my previous condition and now see a small improvement. I still usually find a totally empty bladder after walking a couple of miles. I'm continuing this exercise and will report back later when I have more time to assess the results.
Al 15 months post RRP
Steve Kramer - 17 Jul 2005 22:11 GMT My uro said that is the absolutely wrong way to do it; that it causes far too much stresson the bladder.
I wish I knew who was right.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> "I. P. Freely" wrote... > > ......... My uro keeps harping about the Kegels, almost as though this is my [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Al > 15 months post RRP David S. - 15 Jul 2005 11:50 GMT Hi Heather: Good to hear from you! At this point I do not know if I will venture into the surgery or not. I really do not want to go under the knife again, and I do worry about the effects of the anesthesia. So far no one has answered my question about the clamp. I may just buy one and test it out. My neighbor is very happy with his, and he told me his uro only charges $40.00 or so for it. The ones on the web cost closer to a hundred dollars. And I will watch out for the new procedure to see how that goes. Take care. Have a good day. David
> Hi David.... > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Cheers.....Heather Tdub - 16 Jul 2005 04:17 GMT 2 years post RRP at Northwestern/Chicago next week. Monday I had a procedure to open up the (constricted) bladder neck, at Rush Pres in Chicago. Mine was severly constricted, only had a pinhole of an opening. My doc, Laurence Levine, said it was necessary to do this B4 an AMS 800 implant, and I will have to wait three months for the implant to make sure the dilation procedure holds. Today is four days after the procedure, and I am very interested to see if I will improve from the former incontinence level, probably averaged 190 ml per day, depending on activity. At least the strength of my stream now appears normal (i.e., good force), and I seem to have more feeling and sensation related to bladder control and fluid flow. I previously talked to the incontinence uro specialist at Northwestern, who is younger (studied under Walsh at Hopkins) but decide against using him. He would have done less resecting in a given procedure, instead preferring to have to do multiple ones to achieve the desired result. Thank god I didn't go that route because the post-op is almost as painful and inconvenient as an RRP, at least during the first few days post op. Levine has done fewer implants, etc. than David S's doc, but he is obviously quite sharp and comfortable with the procedure - he says he has not had a case of infection after the implant, and has had no cases of erosion. He says erosion is unlikely except where the patient previously had radiation, which he says substantially increases the risk of erosion. I always found that "Kegels" of the traditional variety made things worse - my nerves seemed to react to Kegels by voluntarily spilling out the urine whenever they felt like it, rather than having more control, as if the back and forth Kegel motion confused them. I'm going to do the "fill up the bladder naturally and hold as long as I can" routine tomorrow or Sunday, and hopefully I'll be more continent than B4 the procedure - I had some success with this modified "Kegel" approach in the past. BTW, Levine says he does an RP through the perineum, and is able to save more sphincter this way including some (or all?) of the sphincter between the bladder and the prostate. If I knew of him B4 I had my RP, I would have had him do it.
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