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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2005

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Visit to incontinence specialist.

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David S. - 14 Jul 2005 12:26 GMT
   Yesterday had the appointment with the urologist who specializes in male
and female incontinence.  I was told a lot yesterday that I had never heard
before, so get a cup of coffee and read on.  Remember I am not advocating,
just reporting as best I can what I was told.  This doctor has been at Duke
for 30 years and did his first artificial sphincter implant in 1974 if I
remember correctly.  He has performed over 1,000 of these operations, so I
guess you can call him experienced.  You can probably guess his
recommendation, but he went into why each therapy option would not likely
work for me.
   Chapter One.  It was the best of times, it was the worst of
times...sorry, wrong book.
   Chapter One.  The Kegel god is dead.  He told me that the Kegel
exercises were normally effective for men with lower level leakage.  I don't
think he quoted an exact figure, but I left with the impression of something
less than 50 ml per day.  According to their measurements I was leaking 120
ml per day.  I had to keep a "Bladder Diary" for three days prior to the
visit to record the volume of each void and each time I leaked with an
estimate of low, medium, or high.  I also had to bring in my soiled pads
from 24 hours before the visit.  I felt that what I brought in was a "normal
day" for me, so I think the estimate was probably on target.  Anyway, he
said the Kegels would not help me because of the degree of leakage.
   Collagen injections.  He said that this too was not likely to help me
for two reasons.  One, the degree of leakage was to great, and two, the
effectiveness of this therapy was not good.  It helps some men, for others
it does nothing.  Just not a reliable therapy for my case.
   The "Sling".  Which one?  Now there are two.  He just returned from
Austria where he observed four operations using the new procedure.  The old
one involves stapling tissue, artificial or tissue from your own body, to
the pubic bone in order to compress the urethra.  This was also not
effective for leakage over 100 ml, and the basic procedure, like the
collagen injections, did not have a high success rate.  However, this new
procedure, also called the "sling" in order to guarantee confusion in the
future, has a different approach.  Instead of compressing the urethra it
supports the sphincter in the natural position that it would have had before
the RRP.  Here he told me something I have never heard before.  As we know
the sphincter at the base of the bladder is destroyed in the RRP.  However,
the remaining sphincter is partly in the prostate, so it is damaged when the
organ is removed.  We are left with a damaged sphincter to start off with.
He also explained that the prostate supported that sphincter, and after it
is removed it is positioned differently and the current thought is that this
contributes to the incontinence.  Between the damage to the sphincter and
the positioning it is remarkable that anyone is fully continent after RRP.
Anyway, this new "sling" procedure puts the tissue in so that it repositions
the sphincter and supposedly that will help it to return to normal function.
There have been only a few of these performed so far, all in Europe, so
obviously it will be a long time before we know if this is an effective
alternative.
   So, no Kegels, no collagen, no slings.  What is left (he never talked
about the clamp)?  The artificial sphincter (I suppose he uses the AMS 800,
but he never said that explicitly).  It is an outpatient procedure.  The
insurance here covers it.  They put it in and wait a month for healing
before activating the device.  It has an expected life of 10 years (it is a
mechanical device, so it will wear out eventually) although he has patients
that have had one in for 15.  There are two main complications.  Mechanical
failure earlier than expected.  He had one fail as early as 15 weeks.
Fixing it involves removing the device.  Time for the tissues to heal.  Then
reimplant a new one.  Failure rate for that is around 2.5% for experienced
surgeons.  The second failure is when the urethra is damaged by the
compression device.  Again, that involves removal, time for healing, and
reimplantation with the compression device at a different location.  And,
that failure rate is also around 2.5%.  He was clear that men with the
artificial sphincter often do still wear a pad of some kind because there
can still be some leakage.  He said most of his patients wear "panty liners"
and not the absorbent pads like I now wear.  He also said the leakage was
just drops, nothing like what I now have.  I have read here that some of you
leak some, but do not wear a pad because it is not bad enough to show
through.
   Oh, on the cysto they did find that I do have scar tissue at the
anastomosis.  He said the opening is about a third the size that it should
be and that he would fix that during the surgery if I elect to have it.  The
opening looked nice and round, no rough edges, just smaller that what it
should be.  Due to the small opening they were not able to put in the
catheter to do the urodymanics test.  They do that to test the pressures in
the bladder.  He also said that the smaller opening was not the cause of my
leaking (but why not have that fixed first, and then see if it helps the
incontinence?).  The sphincter was clear and normal by the way.  No sign of
damage or deformity.
   I think that is it.  I did not mean to be so long winded, but he told me
a lot during this visit and I wanted to get down as much as I could
remember.  I figured that some of this would be of interest to present and
future members of the leakers club.
   Will I have the surgery?  Do not know.  I am not anxious to have yet
another operation, but I admit that this is seductive.  On Monday I had a
bad leakage day and did not heed the call of the drooping drawers and ended
up wetting my pants (at home at least, not at work).  Tuesday was a more
normal one pad day.  On the internet what I have read indicates that the
surgical alternative is for men with "type 3 stress incontinence".  Not sure
what that means, but it sounds like bad leaking.  Is one pad a day "type 3"?
I will contact my primary care doc and the uro that did the RRP to ask for
an opinion.  The wife is not happy about me going under the knife again.
Cost does not appear to be an issue, but I will confirm with Blue Cross that
they will pay for this.
   And, if I go that far, do I go all the way and get the penile implant
too?  Do they have a remote control for these devices so you do not have to
go around digging in the groin looking for the buttons to push?  What
happens if you have to pee real bad and you push the erection button
instead?  Do you piss on your shirt?  Getting off topic here, aren't I.  Why
is it not Friday.  Oh, another damn Harry Potter book comes out tomorrow.
God help me.  The wife wanted to be at Barnes and Noble at midnight to get
her copy.  Curtis, what am I going to do???
   Hope some of the above is of value to other men with the incontinence.
   Thank you.
David S.
Ron B - 14 Jul 2005 15:27 GMT
David, that was a GREAT report.

Not too long...as it had a LOT of good info.

2 things struck me:

First, since I've never measured...I would have thought that 4 ounces
(120 ml) of leaking in 24 hours was not a tremendous amount.

Not something you'd WANT, but with various little squirts and leaks...I
would have thought that about 4 ounces total for 24 hours was
reasonable.

Reasonable...not desirable mind you.

Guess not.

On second thought...maybe a few teaspoons 10 times a day ISN'T ideal.
:-(

And second...was the damaged sphincter you referred to the 'pelvic
floor' muscle?

I thought that there were 3 'stoppers' in men and the first 2 were
removed during the surgery.

I know that you'll get some great feedback here to help you with your
choices.

Thanks so much for reporting,

Ron B.

Chicago
David S. - 14 Jul 2005 16:32 GMT
Ron:

   What I read is that the prostate itself serves as kind of a sphincter,
i.e., the tissue around the urethra is muscular and apparently it can serve
to restrict urine flow.  At least that is what I read.  The one at the
pelvic floor is the one remaining after RRP.

   I agree with what you said about the 120 ml's.  I really did not think
that this was a large quantity, especially compared to the 4-5 pads per day
that I had for months after the surgery.  If I were still leaking that much
I would be begging for the surgery.  With 1-3 pads per day, 3 on weekends
when I am more active, it makes it a much tougher decision (at least for
me).

   Thank you.

David
judamd@aol.com - 14 Jul 2005 15:47 GMT
Thanks for all the information.  I too, as you know, am a leaker (two
years tomorrow since surgery) averaging one pad per day.  I've not been
particularly concerned about the leaking, to me it's a a part of life
and I haven't wet my pants in well over a year now and considering the
SE's of prior surgeries, I'm not at all inclined to go under the knife
again.  Just have to be vigilant with the pads.  I am concerned about
something coming up Saturday.  I've been asked to sit in as a
trombonist in a local community band's concert.  Their "uniform"
consists of light tan colored pants (in crisis mode I wear black) and
it is unlikely I will be near a bathroom for about 4 hours.  In
addition there will be two pieces where the trombones have to play
standing up at the front of the stage.  The concert is outside and it
is likely to be about 100 degrees so maybe everyone will think it's
perspiration.  Wish me luck.

I was amused by your suggestion of a remote control for the penile
implant.  I assume there will be a built in code, otherwise your
neighbor could cause you some concern every time he raises his garage
door or changes channels on his TV. :))

Again, many thanks for the update on this leaking business.
Dave Perry
David S. - 14 Jul 2005 16:36 GMT
Hi Dave Perry!

   My uro referred me to this guy when I inquired about the penile clamp.
There's one out there now that costs forty bucks or so according to my
neighbor who uses one (he declined the implant and is happy with the clamp).
Some here have reported using that to play golf for example.  You may want
to try that for an activity like you will be taking part in this weekend.
Just a thought.

   Good luck!

David

> Thanks for all the information.  I too, as you know, am a leaker (two
> years tomorrow since surgery) averaging one pad per day.  I've not been
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Again, many thanks for the update on this leaking business.
> Dave Perry
J Brady - 17 Jul 2005 03:22 GMT
Hi All--  I've been a "leaker" also since my RRP in April '03. Tried kegels with
no effect so after a year+ of wearing pads  - Depends, 30 to a package - and
using 2 - 4 a day, I switched to male catheters, also called Texas catheters I
guess. The brand I use is UltraFlex made by Rochester Medical. The leg bag is
made by Hollister. They are Medicare reimbursable. I switched because I just
couldn't stand the wet and heavy feeling anymore. I wear the leg bag on the
inside of my thigh, or the inside of my lower leg,  depending on whether I am
wearing shorts or not. I do have to wear baggier pants or longer shorts than I
used to. I've been using these 25 days out of the month for the last year+.  I
wear a depends overnight.

I have a question regarding the various clamps on the market. My Willie, as I'm
sure everyone else's too,  changes size throughout  the day -- erotic thoughts,
cold weather, etc. - does one have to adjust the device then, for each change in
size?

Jim B

> Hi Dave Perry!
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> David
J Brady - 17 Jul 2005 17:21 GMT
I should have said male external catheters.

> Hi All--  I've been a "leaker" also since my RRP in April '03. Tried kegels with
> no effect so after a year+ of wearing pads  - Depends, 30 to a package - and
> using 2 - 4 a day, I switched to male catheters,
David S. - 15 Jul 2005 11:57 GMT
Hi Dave:
   I am glad that I went to see this guy.  I felt that I did learn a lot.
It was probably worth the copay to walk away guilt free for not doing kegel
exercises every day (ha).
   As to the surgery, I do not know.  I also am not anxious to have yet
another surgery, and I am still thinking that my degree of leakage is not
great.  I remember the months where I had to change every four hours or risk
wet pants.  If I were still there I would have the implant for sure.
   And I almost always were black pants since the RRP.  Once I made the
mistake of wearing light colored trousers.  That day I went home early.
Embarrassing!
   Take care.
   Thank you.
David

> Thanks for all the information.  I too, as you know, am a leaker (two
> years tomorrow since surgery) averaging one pad per day.  I've not been
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Again, many thanks for the update on this leaking business.
> Dave Perry
Heather - 15 Jul 2005 01:12 GMT
Hi David....

>     Chapter One.  The Kegel god is dead.  He told me that the Kegel
> exercises were normally effective for men with lower level leakage.

For women, there has always been a great controversy on Kegels.  They didn't
work for me....but might work for someone else.  It surprises me that the
doctors constantly recommend them to you men.  By the way, in the
incontinence department, men and women are the same.

> The "Sling".  Which one?  Now there are two.  He just returned from
> Austria where he observed four operations using the new procedure.

  However, this new
> procedure, also called the "sling" in order to guarantee confusion in the
> future, has a different approach.  Instead of compressing the urethra it
> supports the sphincter in the natural position that it would have had
before the RRP.
> Anyway, this new "sling" procedure puts the tissue in so that it repositions
> the sphincter and supposedly that will help it to return to normal function.
> There have been only a few of these performed so far, all in Europe, so
> obviously it will be a long time before we know if this is an effective
> alternative.

Thanks to someone on this group (a pharmacist I believe) who had a sling
done I believe, I asked Ron's Urologist 2 years ago if there was anything
like that for women.  The old operation is only about 50% effective and is
major surgery.

Yes.....they are having great success with what they call TVT.....trans
vaginal taping.  This is exactly the same type of procedure as what he is
talking about for men.  Just a piece of tape which supports the urethra and
it is a 40 minute Day Surgery job.

I have looked into it, but am not keen on having any sort of surgery or
procedure done unless it is absolutely needed!!  I am that 1 in 100 people
who falls under the heading "Murphy's Law".  (G)

Don't know how it is situated with a man, but the brochure I have shows it
to be a pretty simple set-up for women.

Cheers.....Heather
I. P. Freely - 15 Jul 2005 03:18 GMT
When you guys talk about "pads", are you referring to 1) a little minimalist
swatch of absorbent cloth, 2) the thick 6"-8"pad one sticks inside a pair of
jockey shorts, or 3) a Depends diaper? 120ml/4 oz I can relate to, but a
"padfull" could be quite misleading as a criterion for abandoning Kegels as
hopeless. My uro keeps harping about the Kegels, almost as though this is my
fault if I don't do hundreds of Kegels daily. I have days my Depends stays
virtually dry for 24 hours, days I soak a real live Depends, and days it
just runs out of my wetsuit constantly all day while at full physical
exertion and total mental concentration  (sure glad my hobby isn't
basketball!).

If your 50ml/1.5oz threshold is even ballpark, I'd have to guess I'm over
this most days, significantly so when wandering about all day. I'd sure like
to have my uro talk to or look at any publications from your incontinence
doc. I'm tired of feeling guilty when I don't pucker 100 times a day.

I.P.
David S. - 15 Jul 2005 11:44 GMT
Hi I.P.:
   I did the Kegels after the catheter was removed, but when I returned to
work, I was out 5 weeks, things were busy, you know how it goes, and I just
never thought about doing them.  When I walk the dog, if I think about it, I
do some, but it is not regular enough to really be helpful.  I have the
doctor's physicians assistant's phone number.  I will call him and ask if
there is anything published that would back up what I was told about the
Kegels and the 50 ml (or so) limit.
   Remember too that there is not uniformity on how to do the Kegel
exercises.  The first article that I read said that if you are moving the
rectum you are using the wrong set of muscles.  Just a month or so ago I saw
something in writing that explicitly said to squeeze the muscles around the
rectum.  Some say do several sets of 10 or 20 each, maybe three times per
day.  Others say do a hundred once a day.  And, I have also seen, this on
the net, that doing Kegels means to start and stop the stream while
urinating.  So, who is to say?  We are all probably doing something
different when we say we are doing "Kegels".
   Yes, you are right about the pad.  In my case I just got in the habit of
using the Depends Guards.  They are second from the top on the Depends scale
of absorbency.  It takes a lot to fill that sucker up.  Then I have seen
here guys that just use a couple paper towels or that cut a large pad in
half to make it go twice as far.
   On the huge variation in the leakage, this doc said that was in fact
normal for incontinence.  I have the same experience.  One day when I get
ready for bed I throw away a pad that, although soiled, is light as a
feather.  Not much leakage for the entire day.  Then, like Monday of this
week, about 5:30 P.M. I find that my pants are wet.  I was not aware that I
was leaking a lot that day, and the pad was full (heavy and "yellow tail").
   I will call the doctor's office and ask about reference on the Kegels.
   Have a good (dry) day.
   Thank you.
David

> When you guys talk about "pads", are you referring to 1) a little minimalist
> swatch of absorbent cloth, 2) the thick 6"-8"pad one sticks inside a pair of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I.P.
A Sherman - 17 Jul 2005 20:19 GMT
"I. P. Freely" wrote...
> ......... My uro keeps harping about the Kegels, almost as though this is my
> fault if I don't do hundreds of Kegels daily.

My uro takes the opposite tack.  He says don't bother with Kegels, just
exercise the sphincter by stopping, starting, stopping, starting while
urinating.  That way you absolutely know you are exercising the correct muscle
and know whether you are effective or not.

I have been doing this for a few weeks.  Initially, there was increased
leakage that I attributed to fatigue.  I think I have recovered beyond my
previous condition and now see a small improvement.  I still usually find a
totally empty bladder after walking a couple of miles.  I'm continuing this
exercise and will report back later when I have more time to assess the
results.

Al
15 months post RRP
Steve Kramer - 17 Jul 2005 22:11 GMT
My uro said that is the absolutely wrong way to do it; that it causes far
too much stresson the bladder.

I wish I knew who was right.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> "I. P. Freely" wrote...
> > ......... My uro keeps harping about the Kegels, almost as though this is my
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Al
> 15 months post RRP
David S. - 15 Jul 2005 11:50 GMT
Hi Heather:
   Good to hear from you!
   At this point I do not know if I will venture into the surgery or not.
I really do not want to go under the knife again, and I do worry about the
effects of the anesthesia.  So far no one has answered my question about the
clamp.  I may just buy one and test it out.  My neighbor is very happy with
his, and he told me his uro only charges $40.00 or so for it.  The ones on
the web cost closer to a hundred dollars.
   And I will watch out for the new procedure to see how that goes.
   Take care.  Have a good day.
David

> Hi David....
>   <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Cheers.....Heather
Tdub - 16 Jul 2005 04:17 GMT
2 years post RRP at Northwestern/Chicago next week. Monday I had a
procedure to open up the (constricted) bladder neck, at Rush Pres in
Chicago. Mine was severly constricted, only had a pinhole of an
opening. My doc, Laurence Levine, said it was necessary to do this B4
an AMS 800 implant, and I will have to wait three months for the
implant to make sure the dilation procedure holds. Today is four days
after the procedure, and I am very interested to see if I will improve
from the former incontinence level, probably averaged 190 ml per day,
depending on activity. At least the strength of my stream now appears
normal (i.e., good force), and I seem to have more feeling and
sensation related to bladder control and fluid flow. I previously
talked to the incontinence uro specialist at Northwestern, who is
younger (studied under Walsh at Hopkins) but decide against using him.
He would have done less resecting in a given procedure, instead
preferring to have to do multiple ones to achieve the desired result.
Thank god I didn't go that route because the post-op is almost as
painful and inconvenient as an RRP, at least during the first few days
post op. Levine has done fewer implants, etc. than David S's doc, but
he is obviously quite sharp and comfortable with the procedure - he
says he has not had a case of infection after the implant, and has had
no cases of erosion. He says erosion is unlikely except where the
patient previously had radiation, which he says substantially increases
the risk of erosion. I always found that "Kegels" of the traditional
variety made things worse - my nerves seemed to react to Kegels by
voluntarily spilling out the urine whenever they felt like it, rather
than having more control, as if the back and forth Kegel motion
confused them. I'm going to do the "fill up the bladder naturally and
hold as long as I can" routine tomorrow or Sunday, and hopefully I'll
be more continent than B4 the procedure - I had some success with this
modified "Kegel" approach in the past. BTW, Levine says he does an RP
through the perineum, and is able to save more sphincter this way
including some (or all?) of the sphincter between the bladder and the
prostate. If I knew of him B4 I had my RP, I would have had him do it.
 
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