Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2005
What to do after radical prostatectomt for Ca
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julian - 11 Jul 2005 02:32 GMT I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy 5/11/05 with persistent incontinence but otherwise I feel physically Ok. At Suregy there were 9 nodes positive out of 24 but no involment of the rectum. Now my Doctors(Urologist and Oncologist)want to start both chemo with Taxotere and Lupron. I hear very conflicting about this. Any help from this group will be greatly appreciated. Thanks and Gos bless
Julian
Peter Headland - 11 Jul 2005 02:45 GMT What did your most recent PSA test(s) show (I mean post surgery)?
 Signature Peter Headland
julian - 11 Jul 2005 02:49 GMT I"ll have the test on 7/11/05 Julian
Alan Meyer - 11 Jul 2005 04:00 GMT > I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and > Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Julian Julian,
Have they told you why they want to do this? Is it because they have seen clear evidence that the cancer was not all removed, or is it because they don't have evidence but think it's very likely that the cancer was not all removed?
In any case, I presume you'll get the PSA test completed before starting any other treatment. That may help you decide what to do.
If PSA is still present, especially if it is above a few tenths of nanograms, then there is likely still cancer in your body and further treatment may be desirable. If PSA is not present, then I'd think you'd want to get frequent PSA tests and not start aggressive treatment unless and until it starts to rise.
Most people seem to get hormone therapy first. Then, when that eventually stops working, they get taxotere, which may hold the cancer in check a few months longer. Different individuals respond differently to both hormones and chemotherapy. Some live many years on one and more years on the other.
It sounds like your doctors are being extremely aggressive in fighting the cancer. I don't know if that's best or not. It may be that, because you are relatively young, they think you can handle the aggressive treatment and you should get it in order to have the best chance of a remission.
This is a complicated medical issue. I don't believe that the scientists know for sure what the right answers are. However you might ask for a second opinion from another medical oncologist.
My own doctor has told me that recent research indicates that early aggressive treatment with Lupron appears to work better than waiting until the cancer develops. But he said that the evidence is not yet completely conclusive.
Don't lose heart over this. Hormone therapy and chemotherapy can be tough, but they can help keep you alive for many more years. If you keep your spirits up, exercise regularly, and get plenty of rest, I think you'll be able to get through the HT and chemo very well and continue to live a fulfilling life.
Also, there are some new treatments in the pipeline. You have a good chance of surviving five or more years and some of those new treatments may pan out in that time.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
Alan
I. P. Freely - 11 Jul 2005 04:31 GMT > Hormone therapy and chemotherapy can help keep you alive for many more > years. If I had seen any evidence of this, I may have accepted my oncologists' advice to start ADT. The measly few months of life extension provided by early adjuvant ADT wasn't worth the likely QOL hit to me.
I.P.
julian - 11 Jul 2005 23:56 GMT Alan thanks for tour info. the pages are very good and will help me to ask more questions. I just had my PSA taken today. No results for a few days. Thanks julian
J - 11 Jul 2005 10:12 GMT > I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and > Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy > 5/11/05 with persistent incontinence but otherwise I feel physically > Ok. At Suregy there were 9 nodes positive out of 24 but no involment of > the rectum. Lymph node involvement?
> Now my Doctors(Urologist and Oncologist)want to start both chemo with > Taxotere and Lupron. I hear very conflicting about this. And what are you hearing? J
Steve Kramer - 11 Jul 2005 21:22 GMT Welcome to the club, Julian, that no one wanted to join. Depending on your other numbers, I think I'd be conflicted too.
The standard for Gleason 9 / PSA 45 cases had been, it seems, RRP followed by radiation (RT). But, we're in an age of constant adjustments to treatment regimens to find just that one perfect combination.
And then there is the subject of your post op biopsy. Did you have seminal vesicle involvement? Lymph node involvement? Other obvious break-out from your prostate organ/capsule?
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and > Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Julian Stephen Jordan - 11 Jul 2005 22:35 GMT On July 10, julian wrote, in pertinent part:
> Now my Doctors(Urologist and Oncologist)want to start both chemo with > Taxotere and Lupron. I hear very conflicting about this. Any help > from this group will be greatly appreciated. I wonder, with "J", what Julian has heard.
I have not done a complete search for results of chemo + adjuvant ADT tx's. However, I have found a couple (out of 182+) papers presented at the recently-completed conference of ASCO (American Society for Clinical Oncology) that are on point.
They are papers 44 and 65, and can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/dsc5z
They are, of course, not the last word on the subject, nor the first. It is my understanding that there is clinical evidence for the proposition that adjuvant chemo + ADT is more useful than a serial approach. I just have not taken the time to look up the documentation. Those interested could probably find papers on the subject via a search of PubMed.
Regards,
Steve J
"Never - never - never give up! Never go gently. There will be plenty of gentle after we die, so until then -- fight - control the rhythms and tempo of the dance, even when you have to let the PCa dancing bear lead for awhile -- even when you have to wear the lead suit as you dance - never let the bear set the rhythm and tempo of your dance with life -- when the bear finally takes control, it will be a very hollow feeling for him, because I will be gone -- dancing in a better place." --E. B. (Burns) Mixon, a PCa survivor, July, 2005
julian - 12 Jul 2005 00:11 GMT Thanks again for all the help. I just had my PSA post Surgery done today. No results as yet. To anwser some of the questions: Again the inital PSA was 45. The Glaeson score at surgery was 9+ There was involment of the seminaal vesicles, not the rectum and 9 out of 24 lymph nodes were positive. My readinds of both Taxotere and Lupron in my situation is that there is not a definete proof that they prolong live and the QOL is somewhat poor due to severe complications including spinal compressions (NEJM 352:154-164). I looked at both studies of ASCO and both are experimental in animals. I will try to do a search PubMed.
THanks again. I'm learning a lot and is very touching to see that even in this complicated world still a whole lots of people who CARE. Thank you all
julian
J - 12 Jul 2005 01:30 GMT > Thanks again for all the help. > I just had my PSA post Surgery done today. No results as yet. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 352:154-164). I looked at both studies of ASCO and both are > experimental in animals. I will try to do a search PubMed. hello julian, I've never heard of spinal compression in connection with taxotere and there's many on alt.support.cancer and/or alt.support.canver.breast who've been treated with taxotere. The cancer iitself (spread to the bone) is a risk for spine compression.
If your reference is correct, here's what I've found. No mention of taxotere at all. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/352/2/154 Risk of Fracture after Androgen Deprivation for Prostate Cancer Vahakn B. Shahinian, M.D., Yong-Fang Kuo, Ph.D., Jean L. Freeman, Ph.D., and James S. Goodwin, M.D.
ABSTRACT
Background The use of androgen-deprivation therapy for prostate cancer has increased substantially over the past 15 years. This treatment is associated with a loss of bone-mineral density, but the risk of fracture after androgen-deprivation therapy has not been well studied.
Methods We studied the records of 50,613 men who were listed in the linked database of the Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results program and Medicare as having received a diagnosis of prostate cancer in the period from 1992 through 1997. The primary outcomes were the occurrence of any fracture and the occurrence of a fracture resulting in hospitalization. Cox proportional-hazards analyses were adjusted for characteristics of the patients and the cancer, other cancer treatment received, and the occurrence of a fracture or the diagnosis of osteoporosis during the 12 months preceding the diagnosis of cancer.
Results Of men surviving at least five years after diagnosis, 19.4 percent of those who received androgen-deprivation therapy had a fracture, as compared with 12.6 percent of those not receiving androgen-deprivation therapy (P<0.001). In the Cox proportional-hazards analyses, adjusted for characteristics of the patient and the tumor, there was a statistically significant relation between the number of doses of gonadotropin-releasing hormone received during the 12 months after diagnosis and the subsequent risk of fracture.
Conclusions Androgen-deprivation therapy for prostate cancer increases the risk of fracture.
Source Information
From the Departments of Internal Medicine (V.B.S., Y.-F.K., J.L.F., J.S.G.) and Preventive Medicine and Community Health (Y.-F.K., J.L.F., J.S.G.), and the Sealy Center on Aging (V.B.S., Y.-F.K., J.L.F., J.S.G.) all at the University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston.
Address reprint requests to Dr. Shahinian at the Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, John Sealy Annex, Rm. 4.200, 301 University Blvd., Galveston, TX 77555-0562, or at vbshahin@utmb.edu.
It's my non-expert understanding that Lupron suppresses testosterone and testosterone is an androgen.
Looks to me, reading the above article, that they are questioning the number of doses/treatments (of Lupron) during the 12 months after diagnosis.
We know that growing tumours shed clones and if on chemo, the clones eventually become resistant to the chemo (between one year and 19 months). But since yoiu've had an RRP, the tumour's been removed (if you had clear margins).
We know that spine compression and/or osteoporosis can affect quality of life. We know that chemos such as Taxotere can affect quality of life. Apparently the FDA approved taxotere, in 2004, for hormone-refractory prostate cancer http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/NEW01068.html
The others here would have to comment on Lupron, trlsyr their treatments and experiences, osteoporosis and QOL.
What I don't know and I expect no one knows is whether there's cancer in any of your remaining lymph nodes. And if so, where the cancer would appear next. (it often, but not always spreads to the bone). It looks to me that your treating doctors want to hit it hard now, in case there is residual cancer in any/some of the lymph nodes. What I don't know is if Taxotere is especially effective against cancer in the bone. (you could ask Steph - see below) Keeping in mind the chemo resistance, I would ask a radiation oncologist if having the adjacent lymph nodes radiated would give some extra insurance and save the taxotere, for if a frank tumour appears elsewhere. You could ask Steph on news:sci.med.diseases.cancer He's a radiation oncologist.
I'm not a doctor. I hope I haven't caused any confusion and I do not wish to influence your decision one way or another. J
Stephen Jordan - 12 Jul 2005 01:58 GMT On July 11, julian wrote, in pertinent part:
> My readinds of both Taxotere and Lupron in my situation is that there > is not a definete proof that they prolong live and the QOL is > somewhat poor due to severe complications including spinal > compressions (NEJM 352:154-164). I looked at both studies of ASCO and > both are experimental in animals. I will try to do a search PubMed. As I understand it, spinal compressions occur due to weakening of the bones (osteoporosis). This begins to occur immediately upon starting a regimen of LHRH agonists such as Zoladex, Lupron or Trelstar. It is a well-known (to those medics who are paying attention) side effect of androgen deprivation therapy (ADT).
This osteoporosis and its precursor, osteopenia, are easily prevented by use of adjuvant (same-time) oral or intravenous bisphosphonates such as, among others, Aredia, Zometa, or Actonel.
I am taking Actonel 35 mg weekly to counteract the loss of bone mass density caused by my LHRH agonist medication, which is adjuvant to my salvage IMRT that concluded in October, 2004.
My radiation oncologist had no idea that osteoporosis would (not could but *would*) occur as a result of the LHRH agonist (Lupron) he had prescribed.
Because I did what Julian is beginning to do, study and learn, I read of this as well as other important matters of which the rad onc was ignorant. I received advice from one of the leading medical oncologists in the world. The rad onc refused to read it 'cuz the paper was nine pages long(!)
Consequently, I wrote the rad onc a letter informing him that I had terminated our business. IOW, I fired him for cause. The cause was: ignorance.
What I'm leading up to is this:
1. Loss of BMD *will* occur if Julian fails to make sure that he takes a bisphosphonate while on Lupron. If Julian's medics are not aware of this, he should wonder about their competence.
2. Julian is making the first steps toward what I've been preaching on this NG: *study, learn, take charge*
He and he alone is ultimately responsible for his treatment, and he simply must educate himself. His medics are, as my present oncologist knows quite well, advisers at most.
As a sort-of defense of medics, I will concede that it is very difficult and time-consuming to keep up to date with medical matters and medics are, unfortunately but unavoidably, human.
OTOH, the information is available. I think that it is the medics' duty to know it. It is very difficult and time-consuming to die of PCa, too.
The medics chose to become medics instead of plumbers (no no not dissing plumbers); we did not choose to become prostate cancer patients.
3. Julian should refer to the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
This site will immeasurably aid him (and anyone else) in understanding and dealing with this merciless killer.
4. Julian should buy and study (not read, STUDY) _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ by med onc and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum and Donna Pogliano. He will never regret it.
> THanks again. I'm learning a lot and is very touching to see that > even in this complicated world still a whole lots of people who CARE. Julian, I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 (the Gleason 8 in the other lobe was missed) T2b tumor (would have been T2c if the 8 had been found), with only a 5.7 PSA -- too high but not horrible.
I have -- so far -- survived. So will you if you take command of your case.
Regards,
Steve J
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
ron - 12 Jul 2005 02:55 GMT Steve J wrote...snip... 1. Loss of BMD *will* occur if Julian fails to make sure that he takes a bisphosphonate while on Lupron. If Julian's medics are not aware of this, he should wonder about their competence. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve...Use of injectable bisphosphonates is not to be taken lightly, their downside may more than offset the advantages they offer for many users. Osteonecrosis of the jaw is not something anyone would choose to live with, and while studies are still in progress, jaw bone necrosis does not appear to cease being a problem after bisphosphonate usage is stopped. This is an emerging disease and its scope is still being assessed. Today it is not known whether a majority or minority of bisphosphonate users will be afflicted. Even non-injectable bisphosphonates can produce jaw bone necrosis. Certainly. anyone with a recurring need for dental surgery is at high risk, others may be as well, the medical community just does not know. Time will tell the scope and severity of this disease among osteo and bone cancer sufferers. While injectable bisphosphonates help protect bone density and weakly attack cancer cells, I would use these materials only as a last resort. Non-injectable, less potent, bisphosphonates, like Fosamax, or use of estrogen therapy (which does not cause bone density loss) in place of LHRH agonists are alternatives meriting consideration..Best wishes and good health, Ron
Stephen Jordan - 12 Jul 2005 04:02 GMT On July 11, ron replied to my previous post re: osteoporosis secondary to LHRH medications:
(snip)
> Steve...Use of injectable bisphosphonates is not to be taken lightly, > their downside may more than offset the advantages they offer for > many users. Osteonecrosis of the jaw is not something anyone would > choose to live with, and while studies are still in progress, jaw > bone necrosis does not appear to cease being a problem after > bisphosphonate usage is stopped. And so on.
Yes, jaw necrosis should be borne in mind when contemplating dental work that will impinge upon the jaw. Having just lost a filling, I will be sure to cover this risk with my dentist when I finally see him (7/14).
I cannot see how the risk of jawbone necrosis in circumstances of dental work is relevant to osteoporosis due to dosing with an LHRH agonist.
And yes, I fully understand that ADT causes bone resorption. That, of course, is what the bisphosphonates (along with supplemental calcium) are intended to address. Too much resorption may result in interference with the healing of injured bone. That's what jaw necrosis is all about.
So it's something to be remembered, but is IMO no excuse for failing to take a bisphosphonate + calcium when on an ADT regimen. That way lies disaster.
Regards,
Steve J
Alan Meyer - 13 Jul 2005 17:38 GMT Stephen, Ron, or whoever
Has anyone got any information on the role of exercise and/or calcium supplements in preventing bone density loss during hormone therapy?
I did a lot of both during my hormone therapy, though I read some claims subsequently indicating that the calcium was a mistake and might have interfered with other aspects of treatment.
Exercise on the other hand always seemed to me to be worth doing for everything that ails you.
Alan
Stephen Jordan - 13 Jul 2005 18:24 GMT On July 13, Alan Meyer inquired:
> Stephen, Ron, or whoever > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > claims subsequently indicating that the calcium was a mistake and > might have interfered with other aspects of treatment. FWIW, I was told that, in addition to the bisphosphonate + calcium, I should do exercises that stress the bones. Example: squats.
As for the possible contraindication of Ca, it is certainly possible to overdo intake. I have to confess that I'm rather hazy on what occurs due to overdose. Arthritis, maybe?
My med onc initially prescribed 1000 mg qd. It was found that this was too much when a lab test came in at 10.8 mg/dL. Normal range is 8.4 to 10.3. So I simply cut the dosage in half. So far, so good.
Regards,
Steve J
Steve Kramer - 13 Jul 2005 21:09 GMT My prescription (literally) was
Calcium 1200 mg Vit. D. 400 IU Fosamax
I was told to exercise also, to wit: "You're a pretty active guy, so that should be enough, but weights wouldn't hurt."
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> Stephen, Ron, or whoever > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Alan Steve Kramer - 13 Jul 2005 00:20 GMT Seminal vesicle involvement with a 9+ Gleason would certainly be a cause to consider agressive treatment like Lupron and chemo.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> Thanks again for all the help. > I just had my PSA post Surgery done today. No results as yet. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > julian
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