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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2005

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What to do after radical prostatectomt for Ca

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julian - 11 Jul 2005 02:32 GMT
I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and
Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy
5/11/05 with persistent incontinence but otherwise I feel physically
Ok. At Suregy there were 9 nodes positive out of 24 but no involment of
the rectum.
Now my Doctors(Urologist and Oncologist)want to start both chemo with
Taxotere and Lupron. I hear very conflicting about this.
Any help from this group will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and Gos bless

Julian
Peter Headland - 11 Jul 2005 02:45 GMT
What did your most recent PSA test(s) show (I mean post surgery)?

Signature

Peter Headland

julian - 11 Jul 2005 02:49 GMT
I"ll have the test on 7/11/05
Julian
Alan Meyer - 11 Jul 2005 04:00 GMT
> I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and
> Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Julian

Julian,

Have they told you why they want to do this?  Is it because
they have seen clear evidence that the cancer was not all removed, or
is it because they don't have evidence but think it's very likely that
the cancer was not all removed?

In any case, I presume you'll get the PSA test completed before starting
any other treatment.  That may help you decide what to do.

If PSA is still present, especially if it is above a few tenths of nanograms,
then there is likely still cancer in your body and further treatment may be
desirable.  If PSA is not present, then I'd think you'd want to get
frequent PSA tests and not start aggressive treatment unless and until
it starts to rise.

Most people seem to get hormone therapy first.  Then, when that
eventually stops working, they get taxotere, which may hold the cancer
in check a few months longer.  Different individuals respond differently
to both hormones and chemotherapy.  Some live many years on one
and more years on the other.

It sounds like your doctors are being extremely aggressive in fighting
the cancer.  I don't know if that's best or not.  It may be that, because
you are relatively young, they think you can handle the aggressive
treatment and you should get it in order to have the best chance of a
remission.

This is a complicated medical issue.  I don't believe that the scientists
know for sure what the right answers are.  However you might ask for
a second opinion from another medical oncologist.

My own doctor has told me that recent research indicates that early
aggressive treatment with Lupron appears to work better than waiting
until the cancer develops.  But he said that the evidence is not yet
completely conclusive.

Don't lose heart over this.  Hormone therapy and chemotherapy can
be tough, but they can help keep you alive for many more years.  If
you keep your spirits up, exercise regularly, and get plenty of rest, I
think you'll be able to get through the HT and chemo very well and
continue to live a fulfilling life.

Also, there are some new treatments in the pipeline.  You have a
good chance of surviving five or more years and some of those
new treatments may pan out in that time.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

   Alan
I. P. Freely - 11 Jul 2005 04:31 GMT
> Hormone therapy and chemotherapy can help keep you alive for many more
> years.

If I had seen any evidence of this, I may have accepted my oncologists'
advice to start ADT. The measly few months of life extension provided by
early adjuvant ADT wasn't worth the likely QOL hit to me.

I.P.
julian - 11 Jul 2005 23:56 GMT
Alan thanks for tour info. the pages are very good and will help me to
ask more questions.
I just had my PSA taken today. No results for a few days.
Thanks
julian
J - 11 Jul 2005 10:12 GMT
> I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and
> Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy
> 5/11/05 with persistent incontinence but otherwise I feel physically
> Ok. At Suregy there were 9 nodes positive out of 24 but no involment of
> the rectum.

Lymph node involvement?

> Now my Doctors(Urologist and Oncologist)want to start both chemo with
> Taxotere and Lupron. I hear very conflicting about this.

And what are you hearing?
J
Steve Kramer - 11 Jul 2005 21:22 GMT
Welcome to the club, Julian, that no one wanted to join.  Depending on your
other numbers, I think I'd be conflicted too.

The standard for Gleason 9 / PSA 45 cases had been, it seems, RRP followed
by radiation (RT).  But, we're in an age of constant adjustments to
treatment regimens to find just that one perfect combination.

And then there is the subject of your post op biopsy.  Did you have seminal
vesicle involvement?  Lymph node involvement?  Other obvious break-out from
your prostate organ/capsule?

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> I'm 59 years with recently Dx Ca Of the prostate with a PSA of 45 and
> Gleson score of 9 with neg bone scan. I had radical prostatectomy
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Julian
Stephen Jordan - 11 Jul 2005 22:35 GMT
On July 10, julian wrote, in pertinent part:

> Now my Doctors(Urologist and Oncologist)want to start both chemo with
>  Taxotere and Lupron. I hear very conflicting about this. Any help
> from this group will be greatly appreciated.

I wonder, with "J", what Julian has heard.

I have not done a complete search for results of chemo + adjuvant ADT tx's.
However, I have found a couple (out of 182+) papers presented at the
recently-completed conference of ASCO (American Society for Clinical
Oncology) that are on point.

They are papers 44 and 65, and can be found at:
http://tinyurl.com/dsc5z

They are, of course, not the last word on the subject, nor the first. It
is my
understanding that there is clinical evidence for the proposition that
adjuvant chemo + ADT is more useful than a serial approach. I just have
not taken the time to look up the documentation. Those interested could
probably find papers on the subject via a search of PubMed.

Regards,

Steve J

"Never - never - never give up!  Never go gently.  There will be plenty of
gentle after we die, so until then -- fight - control the rhythms and tempo
of the dance, even when you have to let the PCa dancing bear lead for awhile
-- even when you have to wear the lead suit as you dance - never let the
bear set the rhythm and tempo of your dance with life -- when the bear
finally takes control, it will be a very hollow feeling for him, because I
will be gone -- dancing in a better place."
--E. B. (Burns) Mixon, a PCa survivor, July, 2005
julian - 12 Jul 2005 00:11 GMT
Thanks again for all the help.
I just had my PSA post Surgery done today. No results as yet.
To anwser some of the questions:
Again the inital PSA was 45. The Glaeson score at surgery was 9+
There was involment of the seminaal vesicles, not the rectum and 9 out
of 24 lymph nodes were positive.
My readinds of both Taxotere and Lupron in my situation is that there
is not a definete proof that they prolong live and the QOL is somewhat
poor due to severe complications including spinal compressions (NEJM
352:154-164). I looked at both studies of ASCO and both are
experimental in animals. I will try to do a search PubMed.

THanks again. I'm learning a lot and is very touching to see that even
in this complicated world still a whole lots of people who CARE.
Thank you all

julian
J - 12 Jul 2005 01:30 GMT
> Thanks again for all the help.
> I just had my PSA post Surgery done today. No results as yet.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 352:154-164). I looked at both studies of ASCO and both are
> experimental in animals. I will try to do a search PubMed.

hello julian,
I've never heard of spinal compression in connection with taxotere and
there's many on alt.support.cancer and/or alt.support.canver.breast who've
been treated with taxotere.
The cancer iitself (spread to the bone) is a risk for spine compression.

If your reference is correct, here's what I've found. No mention of
taxotere at all.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/352/2/154
Risk of Fracture after Androgen Deprivation for Prostate Cancer
Vahakn B. Shahinian, M.D., Yong-Fang Kuo, Ph.D., Jean L. Freeman, Ph.D.,
and James S. Goodwin, M.D.

ABSTRACT

Background The use of androgen-deprivation therapy for prostate cancer has
increased substantially over the past 15 years. This treatment is
associated with a loss of bone-mineral density, but the risk of fracture
after androgen-deprivation therapy has not been well studied.

Methods We studied the records of 50,613 men who were listed in the linked
database of the Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results program and
Medicare as having received a diagnosis of prostate cancer in the period
from 1992 through 1997. The primary outcomes were the occurrence of any
fracture and the occurrence of a fracture resulting in hospitalization.
Cox proportional-hazards analyses were adjusted for characteristics of the
patients and the cancer, other cancer treatment received, and the
occurrence of a fracture or the diagnosis of osteoporosis during the 12
months preceding the diagnosis of cancer.

Results Of men surviving at least five years after diagnosis, 19.4 percent
of those who received androgen-deprivation therapy had a fracture, as
compared with 12.6 percent of those not receiving androgen-deprivation
therapy (P<0.001). In the Cox proportional-hazards analyses, adjusted for
characteristics of the patient and the tumor, there was a statistically
significant relation between the number of doses of gonadotropin-releasing
hormone received during the 12 months after diagnosis and the subsequent
risk of fracture.

Conclusions Androgen-deprivation therapy for prostate cancer increases the
risk of fracture.

Source Information

From the Departments of Internal Medicine (V.B.S., Y.-F.K., J.L.F.,
J.S.G.) and Preventive Medicine and Community Health (Y.-F.K., J.L.F.,
J.S.G.), and the Sealy Center on Aging (V.B.S., Y.-F.K., J.L.F., J.S.G.) —
all at the University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston.

Address reprint requests to Dr. Shahinian at the Department of Internal
Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, John Sealy Annex, Rm. 4.200,
301 University Blvd., Galveston, TX 77555-0562, or at vbshahin@utmb.edu.

It's my non-expert understanding that Lupron suppresses testosterone and
testosterone is an androgen.

Looks to me, reading the above article, that they are questioning the
number of doses/treatments (of Lupron) during the 12 months after
diagnosis.

We know that growing tumours shed clones and if on chemo, the clones
eventually become resistant to the chemo (between one year and 19 months).
But since yoiu've had an RRP, the tumour's been removed (if you had clear
margins).

We know that spine compression and/or osteoporosis can affect quality of
life.
We know that chemos such as Taxotere can affect quality of life.
Apparently the FDA approved taxotere, in 2004, for hormone-refractory
prostate cancer
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/NEW01068.html

The others here would have to comment on Lupron, trlsyr their treatments
and experiences, osteoporosis and QOL.

What I don't know and I expect no one knows is whether there's cancer in
any of your remaining lymph nodes. And if so, where the cancer would
appear next. (it often, but not always spreads to the bone).   It looks to
me that your treating doctors want to hit it hard now, in case there is
residual cancer in any/some of the lymph nodes.   What I don't know is if
Taxotere is especially effective against cancer in the bone. (you could
ask Steph - see below)
Keeping in mind the chemo resistance, I would ask a radiation oncologist
if having the adjacent lymph nodes radiated would give some extra
insurance and save the taxotere, for if a frank tumour appears elsewhere.
You could ask Steph on news:sci.med.diseases.cancer He's a radiation
oncologist.

I'm not a doctor.
I hope I haven't caused any confusion and I do not wish to influence your
decision one way or another.
J
Stephen Jordan - 12 Jul 2005 01:58 GMT
On July 11, julian wrote, in pertinent part:

> My readinds of both Taxotere and Lupron in my situation is that there
>  is not a definete proof that they prolong live and the QOL is
> somewhat poor due to severe complications including spinal
> compressions (NEJM 352:154-164). I looked at both studies of ASCO and
>  both are experimental in animals. I will try to do a search PubMed.

As I understand it, spinal compressions occur due to weakening of the
bones (osteoporosis). This begins to occur immediately upon starting
a regimen of LHRH agonists such as Zoladex, Lupron or Trelstar. It is a
well-known (to those medics who are paying attention) side effect of
androgen deprivation therapy (ADT).

This osteoporosis and its precursor, osteopenia, are easily prevented
by use of adjuvant (same-time) oral or intravenous bisphosphonates
such as, among others, Aredia, Zometa, or Actonel.

I am taking Actonel 35 mg weekly to counteract the loss of bone mass
density caused by my LHRH agonist medication, which is adjuvant to my
salvage IMRT that concluded in October, 2004.

My radiation oncologist had no idea that osteoporosis would (not could but
*would*) occur as a result of the LHRH agonist (Lupron) he had prescribed.

Because I did what Julian is beginning to do, study and learn, I read of
this as well as other important matters of which the rad onc was ignorant. I
received advice from one of the leading medical oncologists in the
world. The rad onc refused to read it 'cuz the paper was nine pages long(!)

Consequently, I wrote the rad onc a letter informing him that I had
terminated our business. IOW, I fired him for cause. The cause was:
ignorance.

What I'm leading up to is this:

1. Loss of BMD *will* occur if Julian fails to make sure that he takes a
bisphosphonate while on Lupron. If Julian's medics are not aware of this,
he should wonder about their competence.

2. Julian is making the first steps toward what I've been preaching on this
NG: *study, learn, take charge*

He and he alone is ultimately responsible for his treatment, and he simply
must educate himself. His medics are, as my present oncologist knows
quite well, advisers at most.

As a sort-of defense of medics, I will concede that it is very difficult
and time-consuming to keep up to date with medical matters and medics
are, unfortunately but unavoidably, human.

OTOH, the information is available. I think that it is the medics' duty to
know it. It is very difficult and time-consuming to die of PCa, too.

The  medics chose to become medics instead of plumbers (no no not
dissing plumbers); we did not choose to become prostate cancer patients.

3. Julian should refer to the website of the Prostate Cancer Research
Institute at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html

This site will immeasurably aid him (and anyone else) in understanding and
dealing with this merciless killer.

4. Julian should buy and study (not read, STUDY) _A Primer on Prostate
Cancer_ by med onc and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum and Donna
Pogliano. He will never regret it.

> THanks again. I'm learning a lot and is very touching to see that
> even in this complicated world still a whole lots of people who CARE.

Julian, I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 (the Gleason 8 in the other lobe
was missed) T2b  tumor (would have been T2c if the 8 had been found),
with only a 5.7 PSA -- too high but not horrible.

I have -- so far -- survived. So will you if you take command of your case.

Regards,

Steve J

"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
ron - 12 Jul 2005 02:55 GMT
Steve J wrote...snip...
1. Loss of BMD *will* occur if Julian fails to make sure that he takes
a
bisphosphonate while on Lupron. If Julian's medics are not aware of
this,
he should wonder about their competence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve...Use of injectable bisphosphonates is not to be taken lightly,
their downside may more than offset the advantages they offer for many
users.  Osteonecrosis of the jaw is not something anyone would choose
to live with, and while studies are still in progress, jaw bone
necrosis does not appear to cease being a problem after bisphosphonate
usage is stopped.  This is an emerging disease and its scope is still
being assessed.  Today it is not known whether a majority or minority
of bisphosphonate users will be afflicted.  Even non-injectable
bisphosphonates can produce jaw bone necrosis.  Certainly. anyone with
a recurring need for dental surgery is at high risk,  others may be as
well, the medical community just does not know.  Time will tell the
scope and severity of this disease among osteo and bone cancer
sufferers.  While injectable bisphosphonates help protect bone density
and weakly attack cancer cells, I would use these materials only as a
last resort.  Non-injectable, less potent, bisphosphonates, like
Fosamax, or use of estrogen therapy (which does not cause bone density
loss) in place of LHRH agonists are alternatives meriting
consideration..Best wishes and good health, Ron
Stephen Jordan - 12 Jul 2005 04:02 GMT
On July 11, ron replied to my previous post re: osteoporosis secondary to
LHRH medications:

(snip)

> Steve...Use of injectable bisphosphonates is not to be taken lightly,
>  their downside may more than offset the advantages they offer for
> many users.  Osteonecrosis of the jaw is not something anyone would
> choose to live with, and while studies are still in progress, jaw
> bone necrosis does not appear to cease being a problem after
> bisphosphonate usage is stopped.

And so on.

Yes, jaw necrosis should be borne in mind when contemplating dental work
that will impinge upon the jaw. Having just lost a filling, I will be
sure to
cover this risk with my dentist when I finally see him (7/14).

I cannot see how the risk of jawbone necrosis in circumstances of dental
work is relevant to osteoporosis due to dosing with an LHRH agonist.

And yes, I fully understand that ADT causes bone resorption. That, of
course, is what the bisphosphonates (along with supplemental calcium)
are intended to address. Too much resorption may result in interference
with the healing of injured bone. That's what jaw necrosis is all about.

So it's something to be remembered, but is IMO no excuse for failing to
take a bisphosphonate + calcium when on an ADT regimen. That way lies
disaster.

Regards,

Steve J
Alan Meyer - 13 Jul 2005 17:38 GMT
Stephen, Ron, or whoever

Has anyone got any information on the role of exercise and/or calcium
supplements in preventing bone density loss during hormone therapy?

I did a lot of both during my hormone therapy, though I read some
claims subsequently indicating that the calcium was a mistake and
might have interfered with other aspects of treatment.

Exercise on the other hand always seemed to me to be worth
doing for everything that ails you.

   Alan
Stephen Jordan - 13 Jul 2005 18:24 GMT
On July 13, Alan Meyer inquired:

> Stephen, Ron, or whoever
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> claims subsequently indicating that the calcium was a mistake and
> might have interfered with other aspects of treatment.

FWIW, I was told that, in addition to the bisphosphonate + calcium, I
should do exercises that stress the bones. Example: squats.

As for the possible contraindication of Ca, it is certainly possible to
overdo intake. I have to confess that I'm rather hazy on what occurs due to
overdose. Arthritis, maybe?

My med onc initially prescribed 1000 mg qd. It was found that this was
too much when a lab test came in at 10.8 mg/dL. Normal range is 8.4 to
10.3. So I simply cut the dosage in half. So far, so good.

Regards,

Steve J
Steve Kramer - 13 Jul 2005 21:09 GMT
My prescription (literally) was

Calcium 1200 mg
Vit. D. 400 IU
Fosamax

I was told to exercise also, to wit:  "You're a pretty active guy, so that
should be enough, but weights wouldn't hurt."

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Stephen, Ron, or whoever
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>     Alan
Steve Kramer - 13 Jul 2005 00:20 GMT
Seminal vesicle involvement with a 9+ Gleason would certainly be a cause to
consider agressive treatment like Lupron and chemo.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Thanks again for all the help.
> I just had my PSA post Surgery done today. No results as yet.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> julian
 
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