Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2005
interesting facts......psa and the prostate.....
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c palmer - 16 Jun 2005 08:44 GMT while stopping at the doctor's office on some business, i picked up one of those informative booklets that they have in the waiting room. this one was on enlarged prostates.
two facts i wish to share with the group so they can be better informed.
fact one...... if a man has a psa over 1.5, he has a greater chance of developing prostate problems, such as BPH, prostatitis and other prostate complications
fact two..... if a man is taking medicines for his BPH condition, the medicine can low the psa reading by as much of 50%.
that sounds like it might be a problem if the man was developing pca and the psa marker could have elevated, but was suppressed due to the medicine.
i found these facts worth passing on.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
James A Honeychuck - 16 Jun 2005 14:02 GMT I have always wondered about that. Especially when people promote the benefits of saw palmetto.
jimhoney
> while stopping at the doctor's office on some business, i picked up one > of those informative booklets that they have in the waiting room. this [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc Dick Smith - 16 Jun 2005 15:55 GMT How many GP's ask the patient if he's taking any medications for enlarged prostate before a PSA test.
Ed Friedman - 16 Jun 2005 18:27 GMT > while stopping at the doctor's office on some business, i picked up one > of those informative booklets that they have in the waiting room. this [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc Curtis,
It all depends upon your point of view. If you believe that all men have at least one prostate cancer(PCa) cell in them by the time they are 40, then taking medicine for BPH that lowers PSA by as much as 50% is a good thing, since it means that you are lowering the growth rate of the PCa, thus lessening the chance that you will ever die of the disease.
Ed Friedman
c palmer - 16 Jun 2005 19:20 GMT Curtis,
It all depends upon your point of view. If you believe that all men have at least one prostate cancer(PCa) cell in them by the time they are 40, then taking medicine for BPH that lowers PSA by as much as 50% is a good thing, since it means that you are lowering the growth rate of the PCa, thus lessening the chance that you will ever die of the disease.
Ed Friedman ===========
hi ed - i guess you're right in some respects. but, in the long run, it will still come out in the wash.
for example - tomatoes - eating them will help prevent pca. i've always eaten tomatoes. pounds of them a week. not because i was trying to prevent prostate cancer, just like the flavor. so, why did i develop prostate cancer at age 56, almost 10 years before the national average?
one person wrote me and said, "well, the tomatoes slowed down the process and you might have develop pca 5 years before then". so, is he right? who knows? fact is..... i ate lots of tomatoes and tomato products and i have prostate cancer, so did eating tomatoes work?
taking what you said and adding to it - the national average is that approximately 20% of men has prostate cells in their prostate by age 50. this is based on the fact from men who had died and had their prostates opened up, not my speculation. the study also said that while the pca cells were present in the prostate, that prostate cancer was not.
so what starts the ball rolling? there is a theory that a gene switch is activated and that the pca cells start developing prostate cancer and research is working on this theory of using gene therapy to turn off that switch, therefore, curing prostate cancer.
the psa is just the "food" for the prostate cancer, not the cause of prostate cancer.
there are many men who are members of this newsgroup who have low testosterone and yet developed pca. this means that low testosterone will produce a lower psa number because it is all part of the process needed to make that happen.
so, back to your statement - then taking medicine for BPH that lowers PSA by as much as 50% is a good thing, since it means that you are lowering the growth rate of the PCa, thus lessening the chance that you will ever die of the disease.
my comment would be - it's a definite maybe........
will it lessening the chance of ever dying from the disease - i doubt it.
will it lessening the chance at the age that a men develops pca - maybe.
it makes for a discussion question, but there is a lot of evidence on this playing field that shows that a lot more players on playing other than low psa numbers. (lifestyle, foods, exercise, family genes, agent orange, even sunlight - just to name a few)
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Ed Friedman - 16 Jun 2005 22:49 GMT > for example - tomatoes - eating them will help prevent pca. i've always > eaten tomatoes. pounds of them a week. not because i was trying to [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > my comment would be - it's a definite maybe........ Curtis,
You raise a lot of interesting points. In your own case, there are many issues that could explain why you had PCa at the age of 56. Since you seem to be interested in the science, you might want to check out my model of PCa, published at: http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/10 Basically, I have not yet found any observed findings involving hormones and PCa which is not explained by my model in a straightforward manner. E.g., the recent findings of obese men having higher rates of PCa "despite" their high levels of E2 and low levels of T is explained directly by my model.
One thing my model made very clear that may or may not have any bearing on your situation: if you eat soy (or flaxseed) products all of your life, then you have almost no chance of developing PCa, whereas once any PCa cells develop, these food products will increase the overall growth rate of PCa by reducing the rate of apoptosis.
I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought PSA is the "food" for PCa. I view PSA as being given off as a result of pressure on prostate cells. Thus BPH or PCa will both increase PSA due to the increased pressure of cells growing where they shouldn't be.
I'm not surprised that there are many men with low T on this newsgroup that developed PCa - this is predicted directly by my model. I would be extremely surprised if you told me that there were any men with teenage levels of T, DHT, and E2 that ever developed PCa.
Also, I'm not aware of any tests, even during autopsies, that would detect one or two cancer cells in a whole prostate. I do know that studies have shown 80% of 80 year olds have detectable PCa under autopsy, and the average number of years before a single cance cell grows to detectable PCa is 39.
My personal philosophy is that all men (including myself) have PCa cells within them and the trick is to raise the rate of apoptosis higher than the rate of growth. Once you do that, time is your friend and not your enemy.
Ed Friedman
c palmer - 17 Jun 2005 09:47 GMT hi ed - i agree there are many variables that will add or substract from the risks of developing pca. green tea for example, is showing a strong promise to prevent pca. my brother is a good example of this. weighing in at 400 lbs, age 67, over 6'4" tall, and family history of prostate cancer- each one of those facts that i mention is a risk factor - just told me that his psa is .6 he drinks green tea throughout the day and has for a long time.
a point to ponder is why they don't include dogs in all these studies since they are the only animal that gets prostatitis and prostate cancer naturally.
i did find many references to autopsies of men and evidence of prostate cancer where it had not developed into a full blown case of pca. i was off on my number, it is actually higher.
here is just one of the references......
Stamey has stated that approximately 40% of men over the age of 50 will show prostate cancer in autopsy studies, although only 8% of these patients will develop prostate cancer clinically, and only 3% will die from the disease. This disparity in growth rates and death rates had lead to the controversy in prostate cancer as to who should be treated and who should have observation only. These statistics are deceiving because the great majority of men who have prostate cancer diagnosed clinically in their lifetime under the age of 70 are at risk to die from their disease. Generally individuals less than age 50 diagnosed to have prostate cancer clinically (by digital rectal exam or elevated PSA) will most likely die from the disease if untreated. At the other extreme, men over the age of 70 will often do quite well with observation or hormone treatments since the rate of growth of prostate cancer often will not progress to a point resulting in prostate cancer death before heart disease or other concurrent diseases will result in death. Because the population is generally living longer, prostate cancer is being diagnosed in a higher percentage of people. Stamey has reported that the growth rate of prostate cancer is astonishingly slow with half the cancers requiring over five years to double in size. Stamey has stated that tumors under 5.5 cm cubed are clinically insignificant, (1.0 cm cubed is about the size of a sugar cube). If a tumor starts out at less than 0.5 cm cubed and the patient is over 70 years of age, generally the paitent will not live long enough to have the cancer increase in size in order to produce a significant clinical problem. However, there are no good preoperatively or nonoperatively ways to estimate prostate cancer size based on today's technology including sonogram of the prostate, CAT scan of the prostate, and MRI scan of the prostate.
PSA is a serine protease, a glycoprotein secreted by the epithelial cells of the prostate gland. Prostate cancer, as it grows, distorts the architecture of the prostate, spilling PSA into the bloodstream and raising the level of PSA systemically. Chu Wang, in 1979, purified the antigen from prostate tissue and named it prostate specific antigen. Both normal prostate epithelial cells and hyperplastic prostate tissue produce PSA, but not to the degree of malignant prostatic tissue.
Clinical vs Latent (autopsy) diagnosis: It has been demonstrated that patients who have prostate cancer diagnosed by PSA alone with normal rectal exams are at the same risk of death from prostate cancer as patients who are diagnosed with a hard prostate nodule by rectal exam. Other conditions can elevate the PSA including infection, prostate enlargement, or any type of manipulation of the prostate by catheter or cystoscopy. Furthermore, Proscar which is commonly used to shrink the prostate, can reduce the level of PSA by 30-50% and must be taken into consideration when interpreting PSA testing.
PSA Discovery: In 1990 Christensson et al, discovered that PSA exists in more than one circulating form in the serum. The free PSA (PSA-F), bound PSA (PSA-ACT) and complexed PSA (PSA-MG) are all present in serum. In its complexed form, the PSA-MG is not immunoreactive and is therefore not measured in available commercial assays. Total PSA is generally measured from commercial assays. This is combination of PSA-F and PSA-ACT. PSA-II assay measures both total and free PSA. The percentage of free PSA is lowered in patients with prostate cancer. This test can be ordered as a further screening procedure to delineate prostate cancer from innocent conditions that elevate the PSA. The higher the ratio of PSA-F to total PSA, the less probability of cancer. With a cutoff at 20% of free to total PSA, the ratio for sensitivity to diagnose cancer is 80%, specificity is 49%, with a 95% confidence level. In other words, when the free PSA falls below 20%, the patient is suspect to have prostate cancer. The sensitivity of a test measures the capability of a test to identify the presence of disease. A high sensitivity means very few people with the disease are missed by the test. Specificity is the capability of a test to identify the absence of disease (low false positive) Therefore, the free PSA will pick up most patients with cancer but will also identify some false positives (only 49% specificity). The positive predictive value is the capability of a test to identify patients with disease among all patients demonstrating positive results.
Screening: Stamey maintains that most prostate cancers can be cured if they are less than 6.0 cm cubed in size, but not greater than 12 cubic cm in size. The usual recommendation is to have a rectal exam and PSA blood test at least yearly starting at age 50, or age 40 if there is a family history of prostate cancer or in African/American males where the risk is higher. The risk of developing clinically important prostate cancer in a man with a close family relative such as father or brother is about twice that of men without a family history of prostate cancer, (16% versus 8%). Benign prostatic enlargement will increase the PSA but only about one tenth as much as the same volume of prostate cancer. In men who have greater than 50 cubic cm of benign prostatic enlargement, PSA produced can result in an elevation of serum PSA that may mask the rise of PSA caused by cancer, especially if the cancer is in the small range. This can complicate the work up and diagnosis of prostate cancer in this group of patients. Fortunately most prostates are in the 25-35 gram size. Metastatic (Spread) Potential: No one fully understands how prostate cancer escapes from the prostate gland. All are in agreement that surgical cures from prostate cancer require that the cancer be confined to the prostate before surgery. The volume of cancer (size) and the grade of tumor (appearance of histology) are important in evaluating a man for possible treatment modalities. Prostate cancer is graded 1-5, based on the degree of differentiation of the cancer. This is the architectural pattern of the cancer seen by pathologists. As the cancer increases in size, the grade often increases from 3 to 4 to 5. Grades 4 and 5 are poor prognostic indicators. The Gleason's score is a combination of the two most prevalent grades in a tumor. This is further used to separate patients into low and high risk categories. In general, scores of 6 or less are good because it means they have no grade 4 in their specimen, while 7 indicates a more aggressive, higher grade tumor with some grade 4 being present. While the PSA level, the grade of the tumor and the tumor size are all important prognostic indicators, there is no preoperative test which will absolutely determine whether the cancer is confined or not to the prostate. Unfortunately, there are no preoperative modalities that will absolutely define the exact extent of the cancer or the volume of the cancer in the prostate. Various computer models have been designed based on size of tumor, which is estimated from sonogram and biopsy, PSA level, and grade of tumor, to determine the likelihood of metastatic disease at the time of diagnosis. This helps the physician and patient determine a treatment modality. Generally, PSA values less than 10, prostate cancer volume less than 6 cubic cm and Gleason's score of less than 6 are all favorable prognostic indicators, suggesting that a radical prostatectomy may yield a cure. However, one third to one half of patients who have undergone radical prostatectomy will have a positive PSA 1-3 years following surgery, indicating that they have not been cured of their underlying disease.
The above material represents a synthesis of 31 years of urology practice plus residency, including many surgeries, patients encounters, and continuing literature reviews. Each patient must educate themselves thoroughly, consult with their Urologist, and make an informed decision regarding treatment. © Doctor Fetner.com
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
judamd@aol.com - 16 Jun 2005 22:39 GMT Ed, I don't believe I have ever seen anything in the literature that claims a reduction of PSA by taking medicine for BPH also automatically reduces the amount of cancer in the body. I can see where the medications might reduce the mass of the prostate thereby reducing the PSA but I can't believe it also reduces the size of the cancer tumors as well. Have I missed something? Dave Perry
Ed Friedman - 16 Jun 2005 23:04 GMT > Ed, I don't believe I have ever seen anything in the literature that > claims a reduction of PSA by taking medicine for BPH also automatically [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as well. Have I missed something? > Dave Perry Dave,
Although there is no direct evidence, it has been shown that enough 5AR2 inhibitors slow down the growth of LNCaP in the presence of high T in a dose dependent manner. At the highest levels of 5AR2 inhibitors, apoptosis occurred.
Similarly, it has been shown that 5AR2 inhibitors in the presence of high T decreases PSA production in a dose dependent manner. (If you want I can supply you the references for both of these studies.)
Therefore, if you put the above two studies together, you end up with high T plus 5AR2 inhibitors both slowing down the growth of or killing PCa plus lessening PSA.
It is also interesting that high T plus 5AR2 was shown in LNCaP xenografts in mice to be 3.83 times more effective that continual hormonal blockade. (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/473445_6)
In real life, the effectiveness of saw palmetto is probably related to the serum level of T, with it being more effective in eliminating BPH (and PCa) the higher the level of T that is present.
Ed Friedman
Leonard Evens - 17 Jun 2005 02:01 GMT >> while stopping at the doctor's office on some business, i picked up one >> of those informative booklets that they have in the waiting room. this [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Ed Friedman Peter Scardino in his new book on The Prostate says that some herbs and medications can reduce PSA without having any effect on an early prostate cancer.
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