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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2005

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Incontinence questions

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jenniferb - 13 Jun 2005 18:12 GMT
Hi everyone.  I have a question about my dad's incontinence.  

Just to remind you: 72 years old, psa 3.8, stage 1, gleason 3+3,
nerve-sparing robotic surgery by Dr. Tewari at Cornell April 8. Tumor
completely confined. Massively enlarged prostate had grown into bladder,
necessitating about 16 internal stitches.

He's not seen any improvement yet at all with respect to incontinence.
We're assuming the additional stitches are responsible. He's doing kegels
and has also met with a specialist about bio-feedback (wasn't impressed).

Had anyone had a more invasive surgey like this(ie, many stitches to
reconnect bladder and uretha), and if so, how have you progressed from a
bladder-control perspective?  He is getting so frustrated!  

Thanks,
Jennifer
judamd@aol.com - 13 Jun 2005 19:58 GMT
Jennifer,

Even under the best of cicumstances (no extra sutures, no huge
prostate) people much younger than your dad have incontinence.  I'm 62
and still wear pads 2 years out.  First off, your dad is only a couple
of months from surgery and most guys are still leaking at two months.
At two months, I barely noticed any improvement.  Over the next few
months I went from 4/5 pads per day down to 3 then after about a year,
2 pads per day.  Now at one pad.  These numbers are of course averages
depending on my activities, how much liquid I ingest, things like that.

I don't think your dad is off the norm.  He is 72 and he may have a bit
more trouble than younger men since the muscle that controls continence
has atrophied somewhat as have all our muscles as we age.  Ask him to
compare his arm strength now with what it was at age 25 and then he'll
see why that little sphincter down there is struggling.  And remember
also, "nerve sparing" does not mean "no nerve damage".  Those precious
bundles we try to preserve for erectile function also carry many of the
nerves for continence so it will take some time for them to heal from
all the stretching, tweaking, etc. of surgery.

Most likely things will get a lot better with time.  And if not, it's
not a big deal to wear a pad.  First thing in the morning I brush my
teeth, comb my hair, shave, and put on a pad.  It's what I do, it's
part of who I am.  No body else cares, no one knows I use them unless I
choose to tell them, so why should I care?  

Dave Perry
judamd@aol.com - 13 Jun 2005 19:58 GMT
Jennifer,

Even under the best of cicumstances (no extra sutures, no huge
prostate) people much younger than your dad have incontinence.  I'm 62
and still wear pads 2 years out.  First off, your dad is only a couple
of months from surgery and most guys are still leaking at two months.
At two months, I barely noticed any improvement.  Over the next few
months I went from 4/5 pads per day down to 3 then after about a year,
2 pads per day.  Now at one pad.  These numbers are of course averages
depending on my activities, how much liquid I ingest, things like that.

I don't think your dad is off the norm.  He is 72 and he may have a bit
more trouble than younger men since the muscle that controls continence
has atrophied somewhat as have all our muscles as we age.  Ask him to
compare his arm strength now with what it was at age 25 and then he'll
see why that little sphincter down there is struggling.  And remember
also, "nerve sparing" does not mean "no nerve damage".  Those precious
bundles we try to preserve for erectile function also carry many of the
nerves for continence so it will take some time for them to heal from
all the stretching, tweaking, etc. of surgery.

Most likely things will get a lot better with time.  And if not, it's
not a big deal to wear a pad.  First thing in the morning I brush my
teeth, comb my hair, shave, and put on a pad.  It's what I do, it's
part of who I am.  No body else cares, no one knows I use them unless I
choose to tell them, so why should I care?  

Dave Perry
Steve Kramer - 14 Jun 2005 14:35 GMT
Good to hear from you again, Jennifer.  How is your father's PSA?

As to incontinence, two months is nothing.  I was wearing pads for six
months and I was 46 when I was operated on.

However, realistically, at 72 with a grossly enlarged prostate to start
with, he may never regain full control.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Hi everyone.  I have a question about my dad's incontinence.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thanks,
> Jennifer
Pops - 15 Jun 2005 15:16 GMT
Jennifer,

As I understand it the stitches at the bladder should have nothing to
do with increased incontinence. The sphincter (SP?) involved is "on the
other end". Some have more problems retraining the muscle than others.

I had no problems within 1 month except for some "accidents" when I
party too hard. Just have to remember to eliminate regularly when I'm
partying as I seem to loose the "urge".

Don't get discouraged. It's early yet!
jenniferb - 15 Jun 2005 19:20 GMT
Thanks Dave, Steve and Pops for your responses.  

It's reassuring to know that he's pretty much in the normal range for two
months post...although I guess time will tell, since it seems from your
posts that progress is very specific to the individual and certain factors
(age, etc.).

Steve -- you had inquired about his PSA.  At one-month post, it was 0, or
as close to it as it can be.  He gets tested again at the three-month
mark, so hopefully that will bring the same result.

Thanks again!
Jennifer
Steve Kramer - 16 Jun 2005 11:45 GMT
Excellent!  I'm glad to hear it.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Thanks Dave, Steve and Pops for your responses.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks again!
> Jennifer
jenniferb - 15 Jun 2005 19:21 GMT
Thanks Dave, Steve and Pops for your responses.  

It's reassuring to know that he's pretty much in the normal range for two
months post...although I guess time will tell, since it seems from your
posts that progress is very specific to the individual and certain factors
(age, etc.).

Steve -- you had inquired about his PSA.  At one-month post, it was 0, or
as close to it as it can be.  He gets tested again at the three-month
mark, so hopefully that will bring the same result.

Thanks again!
Jennifer
 
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