Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

question on radiation

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
judamd@aol.com - 26 May 2005 19:45 GMT
I'm a post-op guy with low PSAs and I hopefully will never need
radiation but I have a question regarding radiation.  Years ago I
studied much physics and as I recall, all forms of radiation
essentially pass through material (flesh included)in a straight line
slamming into atoms and molecules along the way, ionizing same and
thereby altering the molecular structure sufficiently to kill cells,
etc..  Obviously the "focused" radiation is nothing more than aiming
multiple beams from a variety of directions so that the density of
damage is minimal to healthy tissue on the way in with most of the
damage done at the focal point where all the beams converge and
hopefully where the cancer is located.  In my studies, beta rays
(electrons emitted by the nucleus) had a "range" which was a distance
in various materials (human flesh included) at which virtually all the
beta energy was released with little given up on the way in.  This
range was determined by the material penetrated and the initial energy
of the betas from the parent source.  The ranges in tissues varied but
were on the order of a couple of inches.  My question is, "Why don't
radiologists use betas to kill the cancer, using a source with an
appropriate range for human flesh so that almost all the energy is
deposited at the site, not released along the entire path damaging
healthy stuff along the way?"
Dave Perry
Alan Meyer - 26 May 2005 21:57 GMT
> ...  My question is, "Why don't
> radiologists use betas to kill the cancer, using a source with an
> appropriate range for human flesh so that almost all the energy is
> deposited at the site, not released along the entire path damaging
> healthy stuff along the way?"
> Dave Perry

As I understand it, there are radiation treatments that do
use non-photon particles.  "Proton beam" and "very-high energy
electron therapy" do that.  There is some argument, and some
evidence, that these therapies have just the benefits you
suggest they might.

Why aren't more doctors using them?

I'm not sure of the answer to that, but I'm guessing there are
a number of factors.  Perhaps:

1. They're relatively new and doctors are conservative.
If high energy xrays are known to work, a lot of doctors
may not want to try something else until more proof has
accumulated.  Since cancer can recur years later, doctors
often want to see evidence that patients treated with the
new therapies are in good shape 5, 10, or 15 years down
the road as well as immediately after treatment.

2. Radiation oncologists don't yet have a lot of experience
with the new techniques.  Like all of us, doctors like
to stick with what they know.

3. Equipment is very expensive.  When a clinic already has
a million or two's worth of xray equipment, they may not be
eager to go buy a few million's worth of something else - at
least not until the old stuff breaks down or is shown to be
inferior.

But there are places where you can get these kinds of newer
treatments.  Keith Lundy on this newsgroup had proton beam
therapy and is satisfied with his treatment.  There may have
been some others here too.

   Alan
judamd@aol.com - 26 May 2005 22:25 GMT
Alan, certainly all you say is true.  When I said "years ago" I meant
circa 1960 and this "range" stuff was very old news then.  In fact I
suspect there is little really new information on the effects of
radiation in many decades, just newer technologies on how to apply it.
An interesting anecdote along these lines claims Dr. John Lawrence,
brother of Ernest O. Lawrence of Berkeley/Livermore lab fame zapped his
mother in one of his brother's particle accelerators in the dead of
night well outside the realm of approved medical care.  This was done
just after WWII.  She had a brain tumor which would have killed her if
left untreated.  She went on to outlive son Ernest, probably John too.
My point is that while technologies get ever better, knowledge about
effects of radiation is really quite old and well predates radiation
treatments of any kind.  So, why did radiation treatments start off
down the paths of x-rays, protons, and the like and not betas?
Dave Perry
Peter Headland - 26 May 2005 22:43 GMT
The Loma Linda proton beam machine is a huge installation that draws
massive amounts of power from the electricity grid. Radiation and
x-rays are much, much easier and cheaper to do. I think that is why
they became popular despite the theoretical advantages of other
approaches. It may also be that the magnet technology, etc., or simply
an adequate electricity supply did not exist 40 years ago to build such
"compact" installations as Loma Linda. Just because we know the theory,
doesn't mean we can always implement it in any practical way.

Signature

Peter Headland

Peter Headland - 26 May 2005 22:54 GMT
Interesting reading at this link:
http://www.llu.edu/proton/history/index.html

Apparently the idea of using protons therapeutically was proposed in
1946 and first tried 8 years later. But, as I surmised, it hasn't been
practical to implement it until much more recently.

Signature

Peter Headland

PeteBos - 26 May 2005 22:42 GMT
> I'm a post-op guy with low PSAs and I hopefully will never need
> radiation but I have a question regarding radiation.  Years ago I
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> healthy stuff along the way?"
> Dave Perry

During my investigation phase I spoke to a radiation oncologist who
explianed it this way. External beam radiation requires a series of
treatments over several days. Therefore, the target accuracy must be
repeatble to a high degree. This repeatable accuracy is not possible
since the prostate gland is connected to other tissues and has some
degree of freedom to move around. Chances of hitting the exact same
spot for each treatment are not good. Chances of hitting something else
with the beam are possible. For example, you could damage the rectal
wall, bladder, or the urethra. This is one of the primary reasons I
decided against it. For radiation treatment, this doctor recommends
only seeding.

Pete
Gordy - 27 May 2005 00:02 GMT
Which is why Dr. Wong and Siemens came up with an external beam machine
which includes a CAT scan mechanism so they can do a CAT scan before
each treatment to determine exactly where the prostate is and the
patient doesn't have to move between being "scanned" and being "nuked".

-Gordy
Stephen Jordan - 27 May 2005 02:17 GMT
On May 26, PeteBos responded to Dave Perry:

> During my investigation phase I spoke to a radiation oncologist who
> explianed it this way. External beam radiation requires a series of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> decided against it. For radiation treatment, this doctor recommends
> only seeding.

How about use of beta-mode acquisition and targeting (BAT)?

This ultrasound method was used every day of my IMRT tx to establish that
day's
location of my prostate.

So far, so good.

Regards,

Steve J
c palmer - 26 May 2005 22:47 GMT
hi dave - since this was one of my fields of skill in the military,
maybe i can put it in easy to understand terms.  so here goes.

radiation energy is absorbed by water.  this is one of the tools that
they test the farmer's grain with, to know of the moisture content and
how much to pay him.  

this is also why you can't see through clouds because the cloud absorbs
the energy level and the droplets of moisture act like a prism and will
alter or deflect the radar's beam and spread  it out for a weaken return
echo.

but a long time ago, they found out something interesting.  that is when
RF energy is passed through a body, due to the frequency that it
operates in - the x-band which is 9500 megacycle - the rapid shifting of
the energy caused the molecules inside the body to vibrate and generate
heat - much like rubbing your hands together.

amana was one of the first manufactures to make use of this
characteristic and build the first microwave oven.  and that is the
theory behind microwave ovens today.  the energy of the microwave causes
the molecules in the product to vibrate so fast that they generate the
heat and cook themselves.  it doesn't make any difference whether it is
popcorn or a steak.

now, using this principle for wide spread beam radiation,  they want to
get the body to generate the heat needed to kill the pca cells without
killing the host.  because of this type of theory, it is important to
understand that radiation kills the good cells as well as the bad cells.

the use of the proton beam radiation is a bigger particle.  and because
of that reason,  they now have better control on the deep of penetration
in the human body

conventional radiation is giong to pass through the body and drop some
of it's energy shaking up the molecules, whereas, proton beam will spend
all of it's energy and stop inside the body.  the end result.  more
power where you need it and a better kill.

hope this all makes sense.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
judamd@aol.com - 26 May 2005 23:34 GMT
Curtis, your last remark about proton beams is exactly my point
regarding beta rays except that I was unaware that proton beams behaved
that way too.

((conventional radiation is giong to pass through the body and drop
some
of it's energy shaking up the molecules, whereas, proton beam will
spend
all of it's energy and stop inside the body.  the end result.  more
power where you need it and a better kill.))

All ionizing radiation (capable of stripping one or more electrons off
an atom) whether it be alpha, beta, gamma, or x-ray will kill cells
although alphas being so large can't penetrate anything.  Lower
frequency electromagnetic radiation (radar/microwave) can cause
molecules to oscillate (resonate if you prefer) thereby heating up the
specimen and cooking it if the frequencies are correct.  This will work
on a piece of chicken in the microwave or a human standing in front of
a radar transmitter.  I am still unclear why betas were never used
since they are readily available from natural sources (Strontium 90,
Carbon 14, the list is very long) and being charged, they can be
focused with magnetic fields, and they dump the majority or their
energy right where you want them.  Also, since they are much less
massive than protons, the magnetic fields required to focus them need
be a tiny fraction of that required to focus protons so there is no
huge energy drain although I doubt that was ever the reason to hold off
on proton beams.  The large proton accelerator at Berkeley would pulse
every six seconds and consume about 10% of the energy of the entire
city of Berkeley when it did.  Hence, the lab had its own generators,
no need to pay the electric bill.  I doubt any proton beam medical
device would consume more than a small fraction of what that
accelerator required since the energies required are on the order of
perhaps millions of electron volts whereas the accelerator was 6.4
billion electron volts.
Dave Perry
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.