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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2005

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to get a biopsy or not

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Stevens_lee@hotmail.com - 26 May 2005 14:41 GMT
I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
1.90. My urologist is very cautious and uses age-specific PSA levels
and his cutoff for biopsy for someone at my age is 1.6 to 1.8 so he is
urging me to get the biopsy.

He also said I could wait six months and repeat the test but he would
rather I get the biopsy to be sure it isn't Pca. No antibiotics have
been suggested to rule out infection.  Also, DRE was normal.

What does this group think? Is it adviseable to wait 6 months for
another PSA test?

Thanks for your help.

Lee
Bob Anthony - 26 May 2005 14:58 GMT
Lee:

I would do it.
In my case, I was 52 and my uro offered the same advice to me. I waited
almost 9 months to proceed with the biopsy because frankly I did not
believe him about the possibility that I had PC with a "normal" PSA. My
PSA went up in those 9 months of waiting, but I was lucky that when I
did have the surgery, the path report was good. My PSA so far is <0.01.
The biopsy does not hurt although it sounds scary. Best to get to the
bottom of it now rather than later...pun intended.

B.A.
James A Honeychuck - 26 May 2005 16:22 GMT
I'm not a doctor, just a veteran of all this, but my reading on the
subject tells me that with your borderline PSA and normal DRE, a six
month delay would do you no harm.

jimhoney
standard RRP age 52, cured, no significant aftereffects

> I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
> difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee
Reuben Rothstein - 26 May 2005 16:44 GMT
Lee,

-Biopsy is a very simple + safe procedure
if done with some drowsiness - you won't feel anything.
the fact is that now you worry -
and you will be worrying for 6 month.
might as well get it out of your way -
and continue with a peaceful life.

Reuben


>I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
>difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Lee
Sandy K. - 26 May 2005 17:05 GMT
> I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
> difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee

Prostate biopsy feels like a rubber band beign snapped against your skin -
really not that bad.  Rather than worry about it, get it done.  Better to
find out sooner than to spend months worrying about it.

Sandy K.
Peter Headland - 26 May 2005 17:39 GMT
Last time you asked this question (about 10 days ago), I suggested a
whole list of questions you should ask the urologist. Did you ask them?
If so, what were the answers? Did you get PSA/fPSA test?

What puzzles me is that a normal prostate biopsy does not look at the
region of the prostate closest to the urethra (which is where your
urinary symptoms are most likely coming from). Does the doctor plan to
biopsy that region? What *exactly* is he looking for? I just think you
should get a more detailed explanation - all you seem to have so far is
hand-waving and a degree of "conservatism" that is outside the
mainstream view (my urologist is very conservative, but still thinks
2.5 is a sensible threshold for age <50, which is in line with all the
literature I have seen).

For the record. I found my 8-sample biopsy (without anaesthetic) pretty
painful, both during and after. I still have noticeable discomfort 2.5
weeks later. Others don't have the same experience; I guess I am just
lucky. :-) There is also a risk of sepsis. It takes up a couple of
hours of your life, and costs you money. You deserve a *detailed*
explanation of what the doctor is looking for before going through all
that. But most important of all, you need enough information so that
you are prepared for all eventualities when you get the results.

Meanwhile, what else is the doctor doing to fix the urinary
difficulties? If he is just waiting to do the biopsy, that seems to be
ignoring lots of other explanations for your sympoms and PSA level in
favour of a rather unlikely one. Or have you tried lots of other stuff
for the urinary symptoms already?

Please note that I am not saying you don't need a biopsy. It is just
obvious that your doctor is not doing a good job of communicating with
you (if he was, you wouldn't be asking these questions) - you need to
fix the communication issue or find another doctor.

Signature

Peter Headland

Stevens_lee@hotmail.com - 26 May 2005 20:26 GMT
Peter,
It appears to me he is just waiting to do the biopsy.  I asked him
about Free psa and he said it would not be done unless psa is 4 or
over. The DRE is normal and I asked why I am having difficulty
urinating and he said it could be enlarged within pressing against the
urethra. I think he said the biopsy will do 12 to 18 samples from all
over the prostate.  He never said anything about doing them in a
specific part. He has not suggested any other reasons.  I have been
seeing him for about two years now.  I have not had any infections that
I am aware of.  I asked him about his 1.6 to 1.8 range and he said that
is his range that he uses in his practice for my age group.  I know
that most current literature that I have found on the net suggests 2.4.

So far I have a mixed bag of answers from everyone, here and people
I've talked to. Some say get the biopsy, no big deal...you should know
now if it's pc so you can start treatment.  Others are saying wait,
your psa numbers are still low, You got time yet.  Even you said not to
delay in your original post. so I am confused right now.  

Lee
Stephen Jordan - 26 May 2005 21:38 GMT
On May 26, Stevens_lee@hotmail.com wrote, in pertinent part:

(snip)

> So far I have a mixed bag of answers from everyone, here and people
> I've talked to. Some say get the biopsy, no big deal...you should know
> now if it's pc so you can start treatment.  Others are saying wait,
> your psa numbers are still low, You got time yet.  Even you said not to
>  delay in your original post. so I am confused right now.

First: Lee should get a copy of his records from the medic, to which Lee
as a right, and take them to another medic. He should, in short, get a
second opinion. He should not worry about hurting the feelings of the
present medic;  Lee's quantity and quality of life are at stake.

Second: I have had two biopsies, one transrectal, the other transurethral
(what a mess!). Neither was painful simply because I requested anesthetics
and got them. The patient has an absolute right to pain relief.

Regards,

Steve J
Bob Anthony - 26 May 2005 21:55 GMT
> So far I have a mixed bag of answers from everyone, here and people
> I've talked to. Some say get the biopsy, no big deal...you should know
> now if it's pc so you can start treatment.  Others are saying wait,
> your psa numbers are still low, You got time yet.  Even you said not to
> delay in your original post. so I am confused right now.  

Lee:

Peter makes some very good points.
Ask your doctor lots of questions. I know that some docs can be
challenged in their communication skills. They are surgeons, radiation
oncologists and medical oncologists, not therapists skilled in the art
of communicating and addressing your feelings. You must get in their
face. Get 2nd and 3rd opinions. I did.
All I know that if I had to do it all over again, and I do not, I would
have gone ahead with the earlier biopsy. You can wait the 6 months, but
you sound like it would be psychologically hard for you to do so without
actually knowing about your current situation. Wait 3 months to
compromise if you want. (I am no uro or doc). There likely would be no
significant damage done or risk to you (as stated earlier by James) if
you decide to wait. See if your PSA does indeed go up enough to warrant
a biopsy. Me, I would proceed to get the biopsy over with knowing what I
do now. Either your clean or your not. Proceed from there.
I've read on this newsgroup and elsewhere that there can be aggressive
cancer even with low PSA numbers, which is not to say that this is the
case with you.
Good luck with whatever decision you eventually make.

B.A.
Peter Headland - 26 May 2005 22:37 GMT
Here is my #1 question for your doctor: "If the biopsy is not negative,
what is your next step to alleviate my symptoms." If he doesn't have an
answer for that, I strongly suggest you find a new doctor!

If he does have an answer, the follow-up question is "Can you explain
why you don't want to try that first, in case it brings my PSA down?"
This question hits the issue of why he thinks cancer is more likely
than the various other possible causes of your problem.

Without wishing to be alarmist, there is a very uncommon form of cancer
that occurs deep inside the prostate and restricts the urethra. Nothing
you have told us so far seems like an alarm signal for that, but maybe
he is concerned about it and that is why he wants the biopsy. If so, he
should darned-well tell you so, IMO.

FWIW, I changed urologists for a lot less than this.

Signature

Peter Headland

I. P. Freely - 27 May 2005 03:05 GMT
"Peter Headland" <PHeadland@excite.com> wrote >
> For the record. I found my 8-sample biopsy (without anaesthetic) pretty
> painful, both during and after. I still have noticeable discomfort 2.5
> weeks later. Others don't have the same experience; I guess I am just
> lucky. :-) There is also a risk of sepsis. It takes up a couple of
> hours of your life, and costs you money.

Just for the other side of the coin, mine cost me about 30 minutes, a few
bucks; deductible, no pain or discomfort (I took a Tylenol). It doesn make
an orgasm feel a little strange for a while.

But you haven't mentioned your PSA history. If it's been 1.9 for years,
maybe I'd wait. If it was 1.5 or 1.0  last year, I'd get the biopsy.

I.P.
Ron B - 27 May 2005 14:01 GMT
Lee, the other guys have given you some great thoughts on the
possibilities and potential problems.

I just wanted to speak about the fear and anxiety factor surrounding
the biopsy.

The 12 sample rectal ultrasound biopsy is usually done with lidocaine
injections for anesthesia which were less painful than any dental
procedure that I've had.

It's about a 20 minute procedure, and you normally can just leave,
drive, and go about your business as usual.

There is some blood in the urine for a few days and in the semen for up
to a couple of weeks.

No pain to speak of.

So...the bottom line is how worried YOU are by all of this.

Try not to let the fear of the biopsy enter into your decision. It's not
that bad.

All the best,

Ron B.

Chicago
Leonard Evens - 26 May 2005 23:06 GMT
> I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
> difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee

The biopsy is a fairly simple procedure with little risk if done
properly.  The "danger" in having a biopsy is that you might find you
have cancer, but a not very aggressive case, e.g., small and Gleason 5.
  At this point in time, it is really not known just what your long
term risk would be in such a case.  Many urologists would argue in such
a case that because of your long life expectancy, you need to be
treated, probably by surgery.  But others would feel that it would be
safe to wait to see what happens.   On the other hand, I think almost
all urologists would argue for treating a Gleason 6 or higher cancer in
a man your age.

Some public health experts argue that if you look hard enough for
prostate cancer, you are likely to find it.  They also argue that a lot
of the prostate cancers found that way will never bother the patient.
There is a certain amount of  truth in that position, particularly for
older men.  Unfortunately, there is no good way at present to
distinguish cases in younger men which don't need treatment.  Treatment
can have serious side effects, even though the risk is less for younger
men.  So treatment does involve some casts.  The critics of an aggresive
approach feel that it is better in some cases not to know because
knowing leads inevitably to radical treatment.

It seems to me that one crucial issue is how fast your PSA been rising.

I think the suggestion that you get second (even a third) opinion makes
a lot of sense.
Steve Kramer - 28 May 2005 03:14 GMT
The doctor can only feel a portion of you prostate and 1.6 PSA might be too
small to feel in any case.

If he suggests a biopsy, get it.  If you have cancer at 48, it's bound to be
agressive.  Catch it early.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
> difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee
Peter Headland - 01 Jun 2005 23:55 GMT
> If you have cancer at 48, it's bound to be
agressive.

I do not think there is any truth at all in that statement. I am 47 and
T1c/3+3=6. with PSA in the 4-5 range.

Signature

Peter Headland

Steve Kramer - 03 Jun 2005 15:48 GMT
Hi, Peter.

I was 46 when I was dx'ed.  I read significantly and listed to my uro.  What
I read of Gleason seemed to fly in the face of what my uro told me.  My
Gleason was only a 7 (ha! 'only' a 7).  Yet my uro said it would be
aggressive due to my age.  Then, when he operated, he said it was one of the
most aggressive he'd ever seen.  Of the 100 or so things that I wanted to
know, the aggressiveness aspects were minor, so I did not pursue it.

Lately, in further understanding the process of mitosis, I've come to
realize that what he was telling me is that I was recreating cells at an
accelerated rate.  Each replicated cell was a Gleason 7 (okay, that's a
stretch), but I was creating more of them.

I think.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> > If you have cancer at 48, it's bound to be
> agressive.
>
> I do not think there is any truth at all in that statement. I am 47 and
> T1c/3+3=6. with PSA in the 4-5 range.
dale.j. - 01 Jun 2005 23:11 GMT
> I am a 48 year old that is seeing an urolgist for minor urinating
> difficulties.  My PSA in January was 2.08 and a test yesterday showed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee

I'm for not letting that window of opportunity get away.  Get the biopsy
and see what the doc finds, then go from there.  The biopsy is not all
that bad.  For some it's worse and others it's not a problem at all.  I
had eleven samples and by the time the eleventh one I was ready for a
rest.  There was not much pain, but the anticipation of the next sample
got on my nerves.  I'd have the biopsy any day compared to going to the
dentist.

Good luck

Dale j.

Signature

Email:  dalej2@mac.com

Justin Case - 02 Jun 2005 16:55 GMT
> I'm for not letting that window of opportunity get away.  Get the biopsy
> and see what the doc finds, then go from there.  The biopsy is not all
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Dale j.

My urologist-physician took 13 samples when doing my biopsy and I had the
same feelings as you did.  (I was sure he'd done at least 50.  One or two
more and I might have leaped from the examining table.)  The thought of what
he was doing was, in reality, more painful than the act with the needle.
Now I can say that I'm glad that my doctor took such pains (no pun intended)
with me.  The subsequent surgery went well.

Ken Bland
Steve Kramer - 03 Jun 2005 15:51 GMT
I was on happy juice for mine.  I don't remember a thing.  I am told that
while one is on happy juice he is awake, but he doesn't care and he doesn't
remember.  I was on teh happy juice for my colonoscopy too.  I "remember"
waking up once and looking at the monitor.  My doc said I watched the
monitor the whole time.  When my daughter had a conoloscopy, she talked,
asked questions, asked followup questions in response to his answers and she
doesn't remember a thing.

Go for the happy juice.  It's a wonderful thing.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> > I'm for not letting that window of opportunity get away.  Get the biopsy
> > and see what the doc finds, then go from there.  The biopsy is not all
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Ken Bland
 
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