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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2005

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Lorelei - 22 May 2005 01:41 GMT
oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
being verbally abusive to me!!! I stood up for myself and Curt pushed me
into the computer desk then held me against the railing and spit in my
face!!!! I do believe that he is moving out on Monday. I hate this cancer
sh.t so badly!!!! but right now I hate him more. just needed to vent that
outl everyone loves Curt so much but he is hurting the one who loves him
most.
lori
John Loomis - 22 May 2005 02:16 GMT
Hello Lorelei,
   I am very sorry for what is happening to you and Curtis.
I realize how much trouble it is to deal with a person going through life
changing medical treatments.
I do not have a clue as to help you other than, step back, take a breath,
and look forward.
I just lost a friend today, David Fredricks....(jen zone) web page.
I am very happy he is not suffering now.
Anyway, you need a break, and a deep breath.
Curt needs to know you do care.
Chemo is not fun...
My sister-in-law is getting that for breast cancer.
She lost her hair, and such.  Now is undergoing radiation.
If you can re-evaluate the situation, calm Curt down, try to find time to
heal.
I hate cancer, and many folks out there too.
Thank You for venting.
That is #1 Yell, scream, talk. vent.
I hate this key board....it is not a hug, or a handhold...
Not a smile or a tear.
I give that to you.......
John Loomis.
> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
c palmer - 22 May 2005 02:44 GMT
hi lori - i normal don't comment on it when it gets like this, but i
feel that i must.

there are a number of factors involved here.  let's go through some of
them and maybe this will explain some of the situation, but i will tell
you up front that i don't have the one answer that will put it all back
together again.

1.  on curt's side - he got dealt the blow of death.  he had to accept
this fact and it is one thing for this to happen quickly, but it is
another to see it unfold over a period a time.  it eats at him like one
can not imagine and he will slash out of the ones who are near him.

2. on lori's side - you got dealt the blow that you are going to lose
your soul mate.  it hits you as hard as if someone was to hit you in the
stomach with all their might.  you have tried to pick up the pieces and
to fight with all your strength and at the same time, to be a
cheerleader to your husband.  to give him the strength to fight on.

but as the effects of the chemo has taken its toll in general, it takes
from the person who is receiving it.  that person is having to deal with
the effects from the chemo and from life in general.  there are a lot of
things going through his head and he doesn't understand them.

also, the pca itself, could have gotten in and affected his thinking.
this is a possibility.  

the end effect would be about the same, with outbursts of anger and
confusion.

caregiving is one of THE worse jobs i can think of.  you take the abuse
of the person you are caring for.  you are the one who is the center
point of where they can take out their anger on.  it makes no difference
if you are caregiving for someone with cancer, heart disease, or any
other fatal illness, YOU WILL BE ABUSED.  

what you are describing here is one of those episodes.

the only answer i can offer is to get involved in a caregiving support
group.  you are not alone and you can learn how to deal with the
problems involved in caregiving.

i have been involved in caregiving for over 9 years now.  first, my dad
- now, my wife.

check with the local hospitals first, they should be able to give you
direction on  where a caregivers support is, if they don't have one at
the hospital.  also, check the internet for caregiver support groups.

one last piece of advice,  it is a known fact that the caregiver's
health will be affected if they do much caregiving.

best of luck,

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
James A Honeychuck - 22 May 2005 03:24 GMT
Oh no, what terrible news.  The chemicals must be affecting his brain.
Yes, he should move out.

But he needs to come to terms with his situation, somehow.  He must not
be very spiritual or he would already have a strategy to cope.  Some
people hated the late Pope, but look how focused he was at the end.

Hang in there, Lori.  Call the police if you have to.

jimhoney

> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
gourd_dancer - 22 May 2005 03:42 GMT
Lori, you might try and just simply turn the other cheek. I say that becuase
mets in the in the bone hurt and it is a nagging pain. Chemo hurts and it is
a tiring pain. And all of this cause very short fuses. Next toime, simply
say, I am sorry you hurt and leave for a while...take in a movie, etc. But
to argue will on;y make things worse. Curt is facing his on mortality and
there is nothing no one can do. I am very sorry.

> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
Lorelei - 22 May 2005 06:07 GMT
> Lori, you might try and just simply turn the other cheek. I say that
> becuase mets in the in the bone hurt and it is a nagging pain. Chemo hurts
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "Lorelei" <curtandlori@earthlink.net> wrote in

I agree, he came to me quietly about an hour ago and asked if I was ever
going to speak to him again. we've had a quiet truce since.

I do understand that he is on a lot of medication for a very painful
condition. I tell my son all the time that if Dad says something that
doesn't seem right or that fits, to not take it to heart because he is on a
lot of medications. I need to learn to follow my own advice. but it is
getting harder around here. his psa is still going up 87 when he started
chemo 12 weeks ago now it is 93 not a big jump but it should have gone down.
He hasn't gotten his Lupron yet. He hasn't had it since January so he is
going on 3 months late. I think the bad times are edging our way.
If anyone can find me a support group for 39 yr old women whose 41 yr old
husbands have end-stage metastic prostate cancer I will go as long as it is
within 50 miles from me!! I'd drive farther than that to go to one.

thanks for the concern and perspective. the push and the spitting in the
face were wayyyy over the line tho. that will take some time.

lori
J - 22 May 2005 09:36 GMT
> "gourd_dancer" <mnospam@sbcnospamglobal.net> wrote in message
> > Lori, you might try and just simply turn the other cheek. I say that
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> He hasn't gotten his Lupron yet. He hasn't had it since January so he is
> going on 3 months late. I think the bad times are edging our way.

In advanced cancers, it's hard to know if it's the treatment,  cancer metabolic
changes, spread to the brain/CNS  http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020501/1834.html or
indications of what things will be like, from hereon in.

Alayne went through something like that (worse actually), with her husband. He
had brain cancer. It took a while but she managed to convince him to get into
hospital for a few weeks, where he was evaluated and his meds were tweaked, then
he was able to come home again.

> If anyone can find me a support group for 39 yr old women whose 41 yr old
> husbands have end-stage metastic prostate cancer I will go as long as it is
> within 50 miles from me!! I'd drive farther than that to go to one.

She's on news:alt.support.cancer Just a click away.
She's right in your age group and a soft place to land (ie understanding and
caring).
Tanada's also going through verbal abuse from her husband.
Mike's in palliative care. He might recognize what's going on.

I don't know if chemo is expected to affect the PSA. Steph would know.
I know you feel among friends here, but perhaps from hereon in, you're best on
alt.support.cancer
Come over or crosspost (if the others don't mind).

> thanks for the concern and perspective. the push and the spitting in the
> face were wayyyy over the line tho. that will take some time.

Make decisions about your safety first, Lori,
You're no good to Curt, if you get physically hurt. Forget this "turn the other
cheek" business.
If it's only one event, okay. But if it happens again, you could get hurt badly.

J
Steve Kramer - 22 May 2005 12:08 GMT
> If anyone can find me a support group for 39 yr old women whose 41 yr old
> husbands have end-stage metastic prostate cancer I will go as long as it is
> within 50 miles from me!! I'd drive farther than that to go to one.
>
> thanks for the concern and perspective. the push and the spitting in the
> face were wayyyy over the line tho. that will take some time.

I don't know of any such support group.  Until you find one, I suggest you
send us your thoughts on a regular basis.

It sounds like you have made your decision.  At least for now, you're
staying.  I admire your strength and convictions.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

Steve U - 22 May 2005 13:14 GMT
Lori,
I am very sorry for the terrible suffering you and Curt are going
through. You should tell his doctors about this episode. If it is a
result of his disease or his treatment, they might make some changes.
If it is a result of him responding to the stress, then he needs some
professional help dealing with it. Domestic violence can easily
escalate out of control. The safety of you and your son cannot be
ignored. You are in my prayers.
Steve U
Stephen Jordan - 22 May 2005 19:07 GMT
> I agree, he came to me quietly about an hour ago and asked if I was
> ever going to speak to him again. we've had a quiet truce since.

I'm sorry to have to point out that violence followed by contrition then
forgiveness then violence and so on is a typical pattern in familial abuse
situations.

> I do understand that he is on a lot of medication for a very painful
> condition. I tell my son all the time that if Dad says something that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I will go as long as it is within 50 miles from me!! I'd drive farther
> than that to go to one.

There is an online support group for wives and other family members called
The Circle:

http://www.prostatepointers.org/circle/

I hope that Lori finds it helpful.

> thanks for the concern and perspective. the push and the spitting in
> the face were wayyyy over the line tho. that will take some time.

I am deeply sorry to see Lori's travail, and hope that a genuine solution
is found. Someone suggested that Curt's medics be alerted to this, and I
agree; it can't hurt and may very well help.

Steve J
J - 22 May 2005 09:42 GMT
> Lori, you might try and just simply turn the other cheek. I say that becuase
> mets in the in the bone hurt and it is a nagging pain. Chemo hurts and it is
> a tiring pain.

If chemo hurts more than it's helping, it's time to quit. It's a brain shift,
from aggressive treatment to quality of life issues.
There's pain medications or radiation therapy.
There's hospice (palliative care) at home, for tweaking medications.
J
c palmer - 22 May 2005 05:08 GMT
lori...... here's something that i can give you over the internet.  you
can't purchase it at the drug store, but it has a powerful effect.

((((((((H-H-H-H-U-UU-U-U-G-G-G-G))))))

hang in there.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Lorelei - 22 May 2005 06:07 GMT
> lori...... here's something that i can give you over the internet.  you
> can't purchase it at the drug store, but it has a powerful effect.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc

thanks, I am having a chemical release day (crying jag)
Lori
Steve Kramer - 22 May 2005 11:57 GMT
Of course we do not know what things were like prior to the cancer, though
you've always struck me as a loving, supportive wife.  So, I will only
comment on the cancer.

It is possible, even under chemo, that the cancer has spread to his brain.
If that happens, depending on where it finds itself, behavior may be
altered.

In any case, it's a bad news-bad news scenario.  Either he's physically
affected by the cancer and you are in danger or he's not and you are in
danger.

I do not envy the choices you will have to make.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
MH - 22 May 2005 17:32 GMT
Hi, Lori...
I'm so sorry for this horrible incident!  You've already received some very
good advice from some of the other guys here, and I don't know that I could
add anything new.
It must be such a dastardly thing to see your life slipping away right
before your
very eyes at age 41.... and the chemo and bone mets on top of all that! :(
But you have to take care of YOU, too.
Try to remember..... we tend to lash out more easily at those we love (crazy
as that sounds)
because we know they will still love us.  I'm not in any way supporting
Curt's actions, however,
and you need to look out for yourself.
I think the support group is a great idea if you can find one.  If not,
please keep venting here
on a regular basis.

My heart goes out to you.... and to Curt!

(((((((((((((((((((Lori)))))))))))))))))))))

MikeH

> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
DP - 22 May 2005 18:57 GMT
Dear Lori,

Nothing hurts more than when the one we love and are trying to help turns on
us.  Be it the mental stress, chemical reaction, or what ever; it still
hurts like hell even when we realize that the person we fell in love with
has been changed by a demon not of their own choice.

I feel a need to relate something I have observed in other people and have
felt myself.  When a person is told they have a terminal illness, that
person has a lot to come to grips with.  One thing I saw in a family member
was that she turned very hateful to her husband in the last months. The
reason was that she was angry at  him because he was going to go on and live
the the life they thought they would be sharing.  He would live on, prabably
remarry, and would spend the money that they had both worked hard to put
away for their old age.

My brother in law was the same way toward my sister in his last year. He was
mad as hell that she would live on and he would not.

I was told in 1999 by the doctor that prostate cancer would be my cause of
death. As he put it "this disease is going to kill you, but it is my job to
see that it takes a long time".  As I came to grips with the fact that my
life would be over in 10 or so years, I also felt anger at my partner.  He
will go on to live many more years, probably have a long retirement, and
spend my money!!  It truly made me angry at HIM, when he certainly had no
blame in the matter.  I have gotten over those feelings with time, and yet
the feelings do come back from time to time.  I now know how to handle them
and move on.

Curt has not had the time to work through these feelings of anger.  He is
most likely angry at his disease and angry at you also.

While no person ever has to put up with abuse and you must do all you have
to do to prevent any future abuse, try not to let these episodes taint your
love or your caring for your spouse.  Always remember the reasons you fell
in love in the first place.

I truly feel for you, as the care giver is often the one overlooked in these
situations.  I hope you have a friend or family member in the area who can
give you the support and care that YOU need.  You may also want to consider
local mental health agencies for a referal to someone you can talk to.

Wishing you better times in the future,

Dale P
Denver
Tom Cular - 22 May 2005 23:32 GMT
Lori,

Before commenting, I asked for my wife's thoughts to try and see it from her
perspective. I think it goes without saying that you love Curt very much and
you folks have been an awful lot together. Whatever the cause for the
behavioral swing, it hurts and as others have said, you're the closest
person and target for any rage that may come to the surface, not because
you've done any wrong, just because you're there. Some folks have suggested
a couple of support resources and they can be great. You also have an
obligation to yourself and your son, if Curt's disease and/or treatment is
going to put either of you in jeopardy, it might be time to exercise some
"tough love".

I witnessed my father lashing out at my mom during his final days ( possibly
due to frustration and knowing what was coming next) , she had the benefit
of having been an R.N. with a psych. background and handled the situation,
at the time we (the kids) thought she was being cold, she was not!
Almost everyone in this group has personally faced cancer, however, few of
us have faced the situation that Curt is experiencing right now and that
fact makes it very difficult to imagine just how he feels or what's going
through his head right now.

I would be very interested to hear from the lady participants in this group.

Our prayers are with you both.

Tom

> Dear Lori,
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Dale P
> Denver
Heather - 23 May 2005 05:57 GMT
Hi Tom......

I wrote Lori privately, but I honestly don't know what to say.  On one hand,
my mother died from pancreatic cancer, but she was very calm.  My Dad died
of *old age*......he too was never abusive with any of us.  Every person is
different.

But I worked in divorce & criminal law for 20 years and this is really
disturbing from that viewpoint.  But my guess is that he now has some mets
to his brain and/or the chemo is causing this rather violent mood swing.
All I can suggest is that she talk to his doctors and ask them what is
causing it and how to handle it.

There are no easy answers to this.  And it is truly devastating because they
are so young.  I think most of the answers are spot on....talk to his doctor
and join a support group.  I wish I had a *magic answer*, but I don't.

Best.....Heather

> Lori,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Tom
I. P. Freely - 23 May 2005 03:29 GMT
Oh, Lorelei . . . that sounds a wful. You have sounded SO supportive of
Curt. If this isn't a reason to drop whatever treatment is causing this --  
chemo, ADT, whatever -- I don't know what is. Try to catch him in a rational
moment and convincehim to et to his doctor about this. If his doc considers
this kind of behavior worth it to bolster his statistics, shame on him.

I.P.

> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
makingprogress - 23 May 2005 14:37 GMT
Hi Lori,  I'm so sorry for what you are experiencing.  Our hearts go out to
you.  It is difficult enough dealing with this illness without having to
watch the person you care so much about helplessly turning into a person
you don't know. I agree with the people who suggest talking to his
physician, and if it's the meds, then I would insist they be either
changed or discontinued.  I don't know how old your son is, but it must be
extremely frightening to him to see these changes as well.  I don't know
what I would do in your situation, as I am not the one with her world
falling apart,  but you must keep yourself safe, as well as your child.
If your husband is very different from who he was before, then your
physician should be able to refer you to someone who can help you make
decisions about what is best.  Your husband must be very frightened
himself, perhaps he would be relieved to have a third party helping.
(Social services, hospice, etc.)  This feels very inadequate considering
what you are going through, but our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Lorelei - 23 May 2005 20:12 GMT
Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and cocked his
fist back.
I had him leave.
I called his doctor. they want to see him but he said he won't go.

he packed a bag and left. He kept saying that I was making him leave and I
said that under the circumstances that I definately was. I wish he'd get in
a fatal car accident and end all of this sh.t.
James A Honeychuck - 23 May 2005 20:36 GMT
Well I'm sure you will regret that last part, but his departure today is
for the best.  Don't know where a person in his position lives out his
life if he is estranged from his loved ones.

Such a painful situation.

I assume the kids were in school and did not witness today's incident.

jimhoney

> Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and cocked his
> fist back.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> said that under the circumstances that I definately was. I wish he'd get in
> a fatal car accident and end all of this sh.t.
Stephen Jordan - 23 May 2005 20:38 GMT
> Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and
> cocked his fist back. I had him leave. I called his doctor. they want
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and I said that under the circumstances that I definately was. I wish
> he'd get in a fatal car accident and end all of this sh.t.

Oh Lori, I am so very sorry to see this.

Have you contacted a domestic violence support group? Have you checked out
The Circle, the online group I mentioned in yesterday's post? You might
very well find help. I would consider it to be urgent that you seek help;
you are being damaged. Our ability to assist, however sincere, is very
limited.

It appears to me that Curt has become utterly irrational. To refuse to
consult with his medic is senseless as well as dangerous. I wonder whether
there is a causal relationship to his PCa tx. That's where his medic comes
in, but if Curt refuses to see him, what more can anyone do? Curt is an
adult, and must accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act.

Regards,

Steve J
I. P. Freely - 23 May 2005 21:52 GMT
> That's where his medic comes
> in, but if Curt refuses to see him, what more can anyone do? Curt is an
> adult, and must accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act.

Is that true? Is there no way the courts can intervene by requiring Curt get
medical intervention based on obvious mental incapacity? Wouldn't the
multiple evidence offered by his drug cocktail, his provable hormonal
shifts, the possibility of brain mets, and the dramatic behavioral changes
combine to render him legally incompetent to make his own decisions? Has the
legal system THAT thoroughly undermined a family's right to intervene in a
family member's destruction? I'd think pursuiing that avenue might provide a
last chance at salvation and a clearER conscience if it doesn't help.

But please pursue it from a safe distance, Lorelei.

I.P.
Stephen Jordan - 24 May 2005 00:35 GMT
Quoting me:

>>That's where his medic comes
>>in, but if Curt refuses to see him, what more can anyone do? Curt is an
>>adult, and must accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act.

IP responded:

> Is that true? Is there no way the courts can intervene by requiring Curt get
> medical intervention based on obvious mental incapacity? Wouldn't the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> family member's destruction? I'd think pursuiing that avenue might provide a
> last chance at salvation and a clearER conscience if it doesn't help.

I had thought of that avenue, but elected not to discuss it because of the
urgency
of the situation as Lori described it. It raises some issues that Lori may
not wish
to address at this point. Issues such as: it's a legal proceeding to have
a person
found incompetent to make decisions regarding his medical care. Who will be
appointed his guardian? How is all this paid for? And so on.

Regards,

Steve J
J - 24 May 2005 01:05 GMT
> > That's where his medic comes
> > in, but if Curt refuses to see him, what more can anyone do? Curt is an
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> family member's destruction? I'd think pursuiing that avenue might provide a
> last chance at salvation and a clearER conscience if it doesn't help.

A doctor has to examine him, perhaps in various scenarios in hospital or see the
behaviours himself.
J

> But please pursue it from a safe distance, Lorelei.
DebbieCCLS - 26 May 2005 01:47 GMT
You can apply to family court for an OSC requiring him to do this -
however, you should get assistance from a lawyer specializing in family
law and preferably one with some familiarity with cancer and its
treatments.

> > That's where his medic comes
> > in, but if Curt refuses to see him, what more can anyone do? Curt is an
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I.P.
J - 23 May 2005 22:11 GMT
> Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and cocked his
> fist back.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> said that under the circumstances that I definately was. I wish he'd get in
> a fatal car accident and end all of this sh.t.

And hurt or kill others in the process?
Would the police pick him up and take him to the doctors for 48-hour watch, if
you charged him with assault or spousal abuse?  This is however risky; because
if there's nothing wrong with him (brain and it's an anger control problem) and
he's released. he'll no doubt be angrier with you.
Is there a family counselling department at the police department you could ask?

J
Heather - 24 May 2005 00:05 GMT
Would the police pick him up and take him to the doctors for 48-hour watch,
if you charged him with assault or spousal abuse?  This is however risky;
because if there's nothing wrong with him (brain and it's an anger control
problem) and he's released. he'll no doubt be angrier with you.
Is there a family counselling department at the police department you could
ask?

> J

The problem with the above is that he has done NOTHING that he can be
charged with.  He has threatened to hit her, but he hasn't broken any law
that I know of.  Police don't like getting involved in domestic abuse
situations as a rule for a lot of reasons, but in this one he hasn't
assaulted her or physically abused her, so nothing would be done.

Such are the laws here in Canada and I believe they are basically the same
in the US.  Unfortunately, Curt would have to hurt her first....in order for
them to arrest him.

My advice would be to go to the home of a friend or relative and stay there
for a few days.  He will now be mulling over *his view* that she kicked him
out and could conceivably be extremely angry.....that is what worries me.

Heather
J - 24 May 2005 00:59 GMT
> "J" <philmath@example.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> situations as a rule for a lot of reasons, but in this one he hasn't
> assaulted her or physically abused her, so nothing would be done.

Spitting is battery; shoving her into furniture is probably battery or assault
http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/assault_battery.html
In the context of criminal law, "assault and battery" are typically components
of a single offense. In tort law, "assault" and "battery" are separate, with an
assault being an act which creates fear of an imminent battery, and the battery
being an unlawful touching. Assault and battery are intentional torts, meaning
that the defendant actually intends to put the plaintiff in fear of being
battered, or intends to wrongfully touch the plaintiff. The wrongful touching
need not inflict physical injury, and may be indirect (such as contact through a
thrown stone, or spitting). This article describes the law of assault and
battery as it is commonly applied, although the law may vary in any specific
jurisdiction.
Assault

An assault involves:

  1. An intentional, unlawful threat or "offer" to cause bodily injury to
another by force;
  2. Under circumstances which create in the other person a well-founded fear
of imminent peril;
  3. Where there exists the apparent present ability to carry out the act if
not prevented.

(so his gesturing with his fist as her may also be an assault)

> Such are the laws here in Canada and I believe they are basically the same
> in the US.  Unfortunately, Curt would have to hurt her first....in order for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for a few days.  He will now be mulling over *his view* that she kicked him
> out and could conceivably be extremely angry.....that is what worries me.

She would have to check her local laws.
I see several problems though.
1) If anything, police are often too aggressive and could take him to jail.
That's not the place for a cancer patient.  As I recall, Tony's brain surgery
incision was proof to the police.
(wives can make excuses to change their minds and police are aware of that)

2) do they need witnesses or signs of bruises

3) calling them to inquire shows her phone number. If she doesn't like what they
intend to do and wants to back out; I think in the US (some or many States) the
police can lay the charges instead of her.

With Alayne (UK) she had two girls at home and as I recall there was shoving
involved; palliative care was scared of him because he was big and out of
control.  He got aggressive and someone call the police and he tried to asault a
police officer, so the decision was taken out of her hands (is how I recall
it).. She was worried he would be sent to a psychiatric hospital.  He was
tranquilized, she was there as much as possible to reassure him that he wasn't
just being dumped there to get rid of him, his meds were tweaked and he
eventually was allowed to roam strapped in to a wheelchair.  I think he came
home fora while after that, but worsened and was readmitted and passed away in
pallaitve care/hospice ward, but I cannot rely on my memory on all of this.
She'd have to come to alt.support.cancer to get the exact details from Alayne or
email her.
I'm not sure how much Alayne wants to discuss on newsgroup, but she has been
responding to Tanada's difficulties with her Rob.

4) But since I don't know if Curt's insurance would cover hospitalization and
what the best way to get that done is,

5) I worry about how the police would treat such a person. I don't want them
going after Curt with guns blazing.

I don't understand why the doctors don't call the police themselves, explain the
situaiton, and take the heat off Lori and get him into hospital. Except that he
never threatend or assaulted them).
J
Heather - 24 May 2005 03:39 GMT
I agree with your last 5 points re problems.....but the first part regarding
the definition of assault would come down to "he said, she said".....if
there were no witnesses or visible injuries.

Unfortunately, US laws vary from State to State, and I have no idea of the
specifics of how these things are handled where she lives.  Canadian law is
basically the same for the entire country.

I agree with Tom C......time for her to get out of that situation and bunk
in with friends or a shelter till it is sorted out.  No quick fixes here.

Heather

> > The problem with the above is that he has done NOTHING that he can be
charged with.  He has threatened to hit her, but he hasn't broken any law
> > that I know of.  Police don't like getting involved in domestic abuse
> > situations as a rule for a lot of reasons, but in this one he hasn't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/assault_battery.html
> In the context of criminal law, "assault and battery" are typically
components of a single offense.

> An assault involves:
>
>    1. An intentional, unlawful threat or "offer" to cause bodily injury to
> another by force;
>    2. Under circumstances which create in the other person a well-founded
fear of imminent peril;
>    3. Where there exists the apparent present ability to carry out the act if
> not prevented.
>
> (so his gesturing with his fist as her may also be an assault)
>
> She would have to check her local laws.

> I see several problems though.

> 1) If anything, police are often too aggressive and could take him to jail.
> That's not the place for a cancer patient.  As I recall, Tony's brain surgery
> incision was proof to the police. (wives can make excuses to change their
minds and police are aware of that)

> 2) do they need witnesses or signs of bruises
>
> 3) calling them to inquire shows her phone number. If she doesn't like
what they intend to do and wants to back out; I think in the US (some or
many States) the police can lay the charges instead of her.

> 4) But since I don't know if Curt's insurance would cover hospitalization
and what the best way to get that done is,

> 5) I worry about how the police would treat such a person. I don't want
them going after Curt with guns blazing.

> I don't understand why the doctors don't call the police themselves,
explain the situaiton, and take the heat off Lori and get him into hospital.
Except that he never threatend or assaulted them).
Steve Kramer - 24 May 2005 11:44 GMT
>  No quick fixes here.

Sadly, it is apparent, this will haunt them both the rest of his life.
Steve Kramer - 24 May 2005 11:38 GMT
> The problem with the above is that he has done NOTHING that he can be
> charged with.  He has threatened to hit her, but he hasn't broken any law
> that I know of.  Police don't like getting involved in domestic abuse
> situations as a rule for a lot of reasons, but in this one he hasn't
> assaulted her or physically abused her, so nothing would be done.

I will not enter into the fray of opinions, because I don't know the facts
or circumstances.  Other that to say that at the time a fist is brought to
bear, it is time for the couple to disengage for a time or permanently.

However, U.S. police are usually aggressive in pursuing Domestic Violence
charges.  If not of their own volition, they are often mandated by the state
statutes or by local or federal laws to be aggressive.

And, threats are prosecutable.  Even mental abuse is prosecutable in many
states.

I'm not suggesting prosecution of a man who potentially has cancer in his
brain, just pointing out a fact.
Heather - 24 May 2005 17:14 GMT
> I will not enter into the fray of opinions, because I don't know the facts
> or circumstances.  Other that to say that at the time a fist is brought to
> bear, it is time for the couple to disengage for a time or permanently.
>
> However, U.S. police are usually aggressive in pursuing Domestic Violence
charges.  If not of their own volition, they are often mandated by the state
statutes or by local or federal laws to be aggressive.

> And, threats are prosecutable.  Even mental abuse is prosecutable in many
states.

> I'm not suggesting prosecution of a man who potentially has cancer in his
> brain, just pointing out a fact.

Thanks, Steve.  Things have changed for the better, obviously.  But as you
say, this is not your usual situation.  And if there are no witnesses or
visible injuries, I would imagine the police would move carefully.

It just brought back memories when I worked in divorce law.....often no
proof of assault, or the spouse then denies it happened to them.  Never did
understand that thinking!!  Just a vicious circle quite often.

Cheers....Heather
Steve Kramer - 24 May 2005 22:02 GMT
> Thanks, Steve.  Things have changed for the better, obviously.  But as you
> say, this is not your usual situation.  And if there are no witnesses or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> proof of assault, or the spouse then denies it happened to them.  Never did
> understand that thinking!!  Just a vicious circle quite often.

I've done some work with the local Women Helping Women and even won an award
once for my work with them and the local police and an adoption of a policy
of mandatory arrests in DV cases.  As such, I bear my bias to all.

However, I pause to think about talk of a cycle.  If the cancer is in his
brain and he's refusing treatment, there will not be much time in order to
complete a cycle.
Ron B - 24 May 2005 22:08 GMT
Everyone has given great advice.

I felt "too new" to weigh in but I gotta say this to Lori:

Please keep your kids and yourself safe.

That's paramount.
Heather - 25 May 2005 03:01 GMT
> > Thanks, Steve.  Things have changed for the better, obviously.  But as you
> > say, this is not your usual situation.  And if there are no witnesses or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>>> I've done some work with the local Women Helping Women and even won an
award once for my work with them and the local police and an adoption of a
policy of mandatory arrests in DV cases.  As such, I bear my bias to all.<<<

I have the same bias.  If the victim refuses to lay charges or recants, then
the police should lay the charges.......period!!

> However, I pause to think about talk of a cycle.  If the cancer is in his
> brain and he's refusing treatment, there will not be much time in order to
> complete a cycle.

I was talking in generalities.....that it is a vicious circle.  The victim
takes the abuser back and he or she does it again and again......until the
inevitable result!!  But with Curt, I am sure it is the cancer affecting his
brain, and that is a whole other ball of wax.

But we did have one case where we defended a 150 lb. male whose 300 lb. wife
regularly beat the cr*p out of him.....and I had a hell of a time not
laughing as he told me the story......he was absolutely hilarious!!  Not the
brightest bulb in the pack, but even the cops couldn't stop grinning.

Apparently she had abused him for some 30+ years and he had finally had
enough one day after a few dozen beers......so he blew a large hole in the
bathroom door with a shotgun as she was still adjusting her *drawers*. (G)
He missed.....and she beat the cr*p out of him again!!  He served two years
less a day.

I saw a lot though that made me shake my head in disbelief.  How a woman
can take a man back who uses her head for a soccer ball is beyond me....

Heather
ron - 25 May 2005 03:17 GMT
Heather wrote...snip...
> But we did have one case where we defended a 150 lb. male whose 300 lb. wife
> regularly beat the cr*p out of him.....and I had a hell of a time not
> laughing as he told me the story......he was absolutely hilarious!!  Not the
> brightest bulb in the pack, but even the cops couldn't stop grinning.

Why is this funny, why is it presented as an amusing anecdote?  What's
the difference between this story and a 300 lb. man punching out a 150
lb. woman?..Ron
Heather - 25 May 2005 03:42 GMT
> Why is this funny, why is it presented as an amusing anecdote?  What's
> the difference between this story and a 300 lb. man punching out a 150
> lb. woman?..Ron

Sorry you find that offensive....but it was the total reversal of the usual
cases we defended.  And this man had done such an out of character thing
from how we knew him to be.  It was his first and last offence.  But I guess
you had to hear his statement of defence to understand that.

Heather
Steve Kramer - 25 May 2005 11:38 GMT
> Heather wrote...snip...
> > But we did have one case where we defended a 150 lb. male whose 300 lb. wife
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the difference between this story and a 300 lb. man punching out a 150
> lb. woman?..Ron

Some people can tell 'em and some people can't.

Besides, the punch line was supposed to be, "anywhere she wants!"
c palmer - 24 May 2005 00:52 GMT
Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and cocked
his fist back.

He kept saying that I was making him leave

hi lori - i took what you wrote and put it together to show a little
more of what's going on.  if you will notice that it was him that caused
the physical action, and then said that you caused it.  this is a common
characteristic of an abuser.  i was a counselor and used to hear this
all the time from the victims.   they would have black eyes, busted
lips, or the arm in a cast and the victim was so brain washed, that they
would tell me that shouldn't have made him angry like that.

i know you are not putting up with that type of behavior and i was to
give you an atta boy for standing your ground.

this is only one variable that has came into play because of the stage
of prostate cancer.

your statement - I wish he'd get in a fatal car accident and end all of
this sh.t.  - it is  the cry for support from the care giver.  as i
pointed out the care giver is the one who gets abused and they have no
one to pass the stress on to, so it just sets inside you and builds up.
you statement merely reflects the stress inside you.

i do not know england law.  i do not know if counselling would help him
because for someone who doesn't want to go to the doctor and he knows
that the doctor could help, but is openly refusing a logical choice is
not thinking straight.  

at this point, he is exhibiting a loss of control on two fronts.  one is
his ability to control his anger,  the second is ability to logically
reason out what is the best action for him.

is there someone who he is close to as far as friend or family member
that he can talk with?  that is a possibility.

here's another hug for you.....

((((H-H-H-U-U-UUU-U-U-U-G-G-G-G)))))

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
J - 24 May 2005 01:07 GMT
> i do not know england law.  i do not know if counselling would help him
> because for someone who doesn't want to go to the doctor and he knows
> that the doctor could help, but is openly refusing a logical choice is
> not thinking straight.

Is she in UK?
Alayne might be able to help.
J
Tom Cular - 24 May 2005 03:03 GMT
Lori,
From my view, and this only an opinion based on what I've read here, you've
been a strong supporter of Curt and now it appears as though he is striking
out at those closest to him. This behavior is rather common in folks who
suddenly become aware they're are in a situation that they no longer have
any control over. This is a situation that begs professional help. Lacking
that, separate you and your son from Curt NOW. It doesn't matter if it's the
disease or the meds, the results are potentially horrible. The time for
professional intervention or advice has arrived.
Tom

> > i do not know england law.  i do not know if counselling would help him
> > because for someone who doesn't want to go to the doctor and he knows
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Alayne might be able to help.
> J
Heather - 24 May 2005 03:09 GMT
No.....she is in the Colorado area according to her IP number.  Her ISP is
Earthlink, which is a US one.

Heather

> > i do not know england law.  i do not know if counselling would help him
> > because for someone who doesn't want to go to the doctor and he knows
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Alayne might be able to help.
> J
c palmer - 24 May 2005 03:38 GMT
i was thinking she was in england.  don't know why except maybe there
was something in the first post that got my thinking that away.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Radical R P'er - 24 May 2005 14:41 GMT
Awhile back she posted a website that I bookmarked, that is a journal of
Curt's treatment..And if I read right I believe they're in Minnesota..

here's the site address...

www.caringbridge.org/mn/curtmiller/index.htm

Owen L.
Beverley - 25 May 2005 02:08 GMT
No, Lori's a few hours from my house.
Bev

> > i do not know england law.  i do not know if counselling would help him
> > because for someone who doesn't want to go to the doctor and he knows
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Alayne might be able to help.
> J
kh - 24 May 2005 04:19 GMT
> Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and cocked his
> fist back.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> said that under the circumstances that I definately was. I wish he'd get in
> a fatal car accident and end all of this sh.t.

First thing.  Don't take chances with your safety.  

Here's something to mull over.  

I pulled the Curt discussions from Google Groups and saw that he's
on Lupron.  

At the 6 month point on Lupron, I clocked a fasting blood sugar of
300.   A year previous, I was able to drink a 32 ounce regular Pepsi
and not feel any side effects.

Something pushed me hard-over into diabetes.  I started to come out
of the "sugar fog" at about 2 months after I declined the 3rd Lupron
shot.  

I know an insulin dependent diabetic.  I've seen them when they were
under stress AND their blood sugar was over 300.   The only terms
for that are "insane rage" and "dangerous to bystanders".

I know what out-a control blood sugar feels like.  For me, because
of my personality, it's not bad.  I'm disoriented and "loose" but
not beligerant.  I'm more confused than anything else.

I'm pretty sure that Lupron can whack blood sugar.  I've dragged the
'net and there is some information on this but not a whole lot.

Curt might benefit from a full-up blood chemistry.  It might not be
the sugar or Lupron but that's something easy to check.  
I. P. Freely - 24 May 2005 06:04 GMT
Common SEs of ADT include dramatically elevated blood sugar (especially for
patients who were already diabetic) and out-of-control anger (for anyone).

I.P.

"kh" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote >
> I'm pretty sure that Lupron can whack blood sugar.
James A Honeychuck - 24 May 2005 12:24 GMT
Good sleuthing, kh.

jimhoney

>>Curt again was verbally abusive and shoved me down on the bed and cocked his
>>fist back.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Curt might benefit from a full-up blood chemistry.  It might not be
> the sugar or Lupron but that's something easy to check.  
Tom Cular - 25 May 2005 01:56 GMT
The bottom line (as hard as it may seem) is, Lori must take care of herself
and their son. This may require some immediately unpleasant courses of
action, i.e. separating for a while, I'm certainly not a professional in
this field and as such can only offer anecdotal comments. It doesn't matter
whether or not it's the disease progressing or a reaction to the treatment,
Curt needs professional help. If he won't concede to that; the only sensible
option is separation.
Sorry Curt, I've been ther,. it's not nice.

Tom
> Good sleuthing, kh.
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> > Curt might benefit from a full-up blood chemistry.  It might not be
> > the sugar or Lupron but that's something easy to check.
Beverley - 25 May 2005 02:02 GMT
Lori, email me your phone number and I'll call you. Too much to write on the
NG.
Bev

> oh man, I am not sure what has happened here, but it's not good. Curt has
> been sicker and sicker after each chemo treatment. this time it included
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> most.
> lori
 
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