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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2005

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PSA 5.6

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Jim Turner - 30 Apr 2005 13:39 GMT
Age 64

April 2003 PSA = 1.05
April 2004 PSA = .95
April 2005 PSA = 5.6

My GP set me up to see a urologist in two weeks.  Needless to say I'm
more than a little worried.

I've been reading this group and library books about the prostate and
I've gained a lot more knowldege than I had three weeks ago.

I wonder if anyone would tell me what to expect when I see the
urologist.  I realize the DRE will be one thing, but what else happens
on the first visit ?  X-rays ?  Ultrasound ?  I don't really mind,  but
I figure the more I know the less I'll worry.

Symptoms:  Frequent urination for the past four years.   Mildly
difficult urination for the same period.   Started taking saw palmletto
on the  recommendation of a friend last year and it helps a lot.  80 mg
extract once a day.

Jim
James A Honeychuck - 30 Apr 2005 14:33 GMT
Welcome to still another Jim.

Some subscribers to this newsgroup have been offered bone scans, but
with a PSA of 5.7 I was not given anything but a needle biopsy at Johns
Hopkins.

I assume the urologist will offer to do a biopsy within a couple of
months because of the sharp rise in the past year, and/or if he or she
can feel any abnormalities in the prostate gland.

The biopsy is not a big deal.  Many previous posts about it.

jimhoney
not a doctor

> Age 64
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Jim
Leonard Evens - 30 Apr 2005 14:40 GMT
> Age 64
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> My GP set me up to see a urologist in two weeks.  Needless to say I'm
> more than a little worried.

That is perfectly normal.  The odds are still that you don't have
prostate cancer.  It could easily be prostatitis.  If you do have
prostate cancer, it is most likely at an early stage and can be cured.

> I've been reading this group and library books about the prostate and
> I've gained a lot more knowldege than I had three weeks ago.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> on the first visit ?  X-rays ?  Ultrasound ?  I don't really mind,  but
> I figure the more I know the less I'll worry.

The urologist will review your case, do another DRE, and will almost
certainly recommend a biopsy.   As I noted, a large increase like that
could be do to prostatitis, and more likely than not, you don't have
prostate cancer.   But it still has to be ruled out, and a biopsy is the
only way to do that. It is unlikely the biopsy will be done at the first
appointment since you have to clear the lower part of your colon.   The
doctor will also likely prescribe antibiotics to avoid infection.  Some
doctors start you with the pills the day before but others wait until
the biopsy.  Most men find a biopsy annoying, but tolerable.  Mine was
like a typical dental procedure.  They go more easily if the doctor
first gives you a local anesthetic.   If for some reason, your biopsy is
likely to be difficult, it can be done  under sedation.   You should get
all this straight at your appointment if the doctor decides on a biopsy.

Ultrasound imaging is part of the biopsy procedure, used mainly to guide
the probes.  Rarely does prostate cancer show up in the ultrasound
image.  If you do have prostate cancer,  your doctor may also order
further imaging tests.  This might include an MRI of the prostate area
or a bone scan to look for metastases.  But such tests are hard to
interpret and it is not clear they add much in most cases to what the
biopsy shows, so many urologists won't bother with them in a typical
case.  It really depends on the details of the case and the urologist.

> Symptoms:  Frequent urination for the past four years.   Mildly
> difficult urination for the same period.   Started taking saw palmletto
> on the  recommendation of a friend last year and it helps a lot.  80 mg
> extract once a day.

Saw Palmetto can be a mixed blessing.  If I remember correctly it can
mask an increase in PSA.  Also, it doesn't really do anything that can't
be done by prescription drugs.

> Jim
Claude - 30 Apr 2005 17:44 GMT
"Leonard Evens" <len@math.northwestern.edu> wrote in message

> Saw Palmetto can be a mixed blessing.  If I remember correctly it can mask
> an increase in PSA.  Also, it doesn't really do anything that can't be
> done by prescription drugs.

Proscar is one of the prescription drugs that also lowers PSA (another of
the things my previous internist did not know).
Alan Meyer - 30 Apr 2005 20:15 GMT
> ...
> Saw Palmetto can be a mixed blessing.  If I remember correctly it can mask an increase
> in PSA. ...

I have seen a number of studies on Pubmed of saw palmetto
in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia, for example

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=9609640


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=12092634


that show no effect of saw palmetto on PSA.

But the problem with these studies is that they were on men with
BPH, not prostate cancer.  It is conceivable to me that saw palmetto
acts against PCa, lowering PSA, while not lowering it for men with
BPH.

PC-SPES, a mix of eight different herbs including saw palmetto,
does appear to lower PSA.  See

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11059508


We may have to wait for more evidence before we know whether
saw palmetto, by itself, does or does not lower PSA in men with
prostate cancer.

But on another topic:

> Also, it doesn't really do anything that can't be done by prescription drugs.

This may be an advantage of saw palmetto.  It appears to be
pretty benign and may be cheaper than the prescription drugs.

  Alan
Steve Kramer - 30 Apr 2005 18:09 GMT
Fortunately, Jim, you do qualify as a member of our fine group here.  And,
while your concern is warranted, there are at least three prostate problems
that may cause your sudden rise in PSA.

I believe your uro will merely give you the finger wave and interview you.
He will then set you up for a biopsy.  BTW, you need not get a second
opinion.  You will want a biopsy with as many needles as they are willing to
throw into the prostate.  If you have cancer, you want to know now while you
can still cure it.

Once you have the biopsy, if it's clean, your uro will probably set you up
with antibiotics to see if they work on your prostate problem.  Of course,
you'll get antibiotics for the biopsy too.

If the biopsy shows cancer, they may send you to a bone scan and CAT scan,
but those are almost unnecessary at your PSA level (depending on the stage
and Gleason).

At that point, you will go into research overdrive trying to find the best
treatment for Jim Turner.  We will all help, of course, but the decision
will be yours.

And, I'm getting ahead of myself.  It is our sincerest hope that you never
join our club, but if you do, you will be welcome with open arms.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> Age 64
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Jim
Dick Smith - 01 May 2005 00:46 GMT
Should Jim also be given a FreePSA test also?
Jim Turner - 29 May 2005 12:31 GMT
> Age 64
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> on the  recommendation of a friend last year and it helps a lot.  80 mg
> extract once a day.

I want to thank everyone for their kind and thoughtful replies.    I
went to the Urologist a few days ago.   I know as little today as I did
when I posted this.

He took my history and did a DRE.   He said he wanted me to take another
PSA in two months.  That was it.   I figured he might tell me something
about the results of the DE,  but I was wrong.  I was in and out pretty
fast.

A couple weeks before the appointment,  I was pretty worried so I went
to a local lab and had another PSA.  I suppose I had hoped that there
had been a mistake on the first test. This time it showed a reading of
2.4.  Which shows there was no mistake,  but it was lower than the first
(5.6).   The first and second were from different labs and I realize
they vary.   Surely the doctor wasn't offended by my having done this ?

Whatever,  I'm suppose to see him again in July.
Reuben Rothstein - 29 May 2005 16:16 GMT
Jim,

I am 65 and went though a very similar series of events.

Don't settle for anything less than a biopsy,
none of the tests are as accurate as biopsy.
Further more early detection is crucial in over coming any problem,
if there is any.

Reuben

>> Age 64
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>Whatever,  I'm suppose to see him again in July.
OCL - 29 May 2005 16:21 GMT
>> Age 64
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> My GP set me up to see a urologist in two weeks.  Needless to say I'm
>> more than a little worried.

> He took my history and did a DRE.   He said he wanted me to take another
> PSA in two months.  That was it.   I figured he might tell me something
> about the results of the DE,  but I was wrong.  I was in and out pretty
> fast.

> A couple weeks before the appointment,  I was pretty worried so I went to
> a local lab and had another PSA.  I suppose I had hoped that there had
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Whatever,  I'm suppose to see him again in July.

Jim: You mentioned in the your first note that you were worried and
now you say that you are "pretty worried" and so you went to a
local lab for another PSA.  If I were in your situation and felt the
kind of worry and anxiety that it sounds like you are feeling, that
alone would lead me to get a second opinion from another urologist
and I would ask that urologist for an ultrasound and, more importantly,
a biopsy.

I would ask your first urologist's office for a copy of your records
in which should be some indication if the urologist felt anything in
the DRE.  He should have told you when he did it, but didn't.  I
hate it when that happens.  You have a right to know.

Since you've had the urination problems and saw palmetto
helped, it could be that you have a low grade infection or
inflammation or an enlarged prostate.  That could kick out
that level of PSA and give you the urination problems.  But,
you are worried that you might have Prostate Cancer and
if you have PCa you want to know as early as possible.  There
is no good reason not to do one.

Best wishes!  I know this is the pits, but you'll be okay!  I
doubt that the urologist felt anything in the DRE or he wouldn't
be waiting until July (at least if he is competent he didn't feel
anything).  Your PSA has bounced around some.  Get a
second opinion if you can.

You don't need to live with the worry!

OCL
Steve Kramer - 29 May 2005 17:14 GMT
Jim,

Doctors are as concerned for their work, on average, about as much as
anybody else is, on average.  Computer techs look at their work and don't
explain themselves.  Firemen put out fires and don't explain themselves.
But, if you ask a question, some of them will talk for hours.

Call your new urologist's office and tell the nurse that you are scared,
that the doc told you nothing and you have some questions.  He'll call you
later in the day, probably.  Have a list of questions waiting.  Your first
one should be, "hey doc, what do you think it is?"

And the next time, ask the questions at your appointment.  Sometimes, you
have to catch him on the way out and say, "doc?"  My doc is like that.  He's
in and out until I say, "doc?"  Then he sits down and we talk.

Speaking of which, during my visit on Thursday, I told him that I'm having
incontinence problems while golfing.  He asked me how my game was going.  I
told him it was getting noticeably better last year, but this year it's
really bad.  He looked at me and said, "you know, now that you are on
Lupron, you can hit from the ladies' tees."

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum

> > Age 64
> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Whatever,  I'm suppose to see him again in July.
OCL - 29 May 2005 20:00 GMT
>  He looked at me and said, "you know, now that you are on
> Lupron, you can hit from the ladies' tees."

Steve: I hope your uro doesn't mind if I pass this along to a
friend of mine who is on Lupron and is  golfing!  How funny!
Love the wit!

OCL

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