Cryosurgery/Cryoablation in Australia?

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Malcolm - 26 Apr 2005 04:43 GMT

Hi you may recall me writing about my friend Joe and his decision making
process recently (initially a question about possible side-effects of a
biopsy) - well as suggested here, he has continued to research with
diligence and has now added Cryosurgery to his shortlist of options. I
have read a report to the Royal Australian College of Surgeons dated June
2003 (
http://www.surgeons.org/asernip-s/net-s/procedures/Secondary%20Transperitoneal%2
0Cryotherapy.pdf )
which states that the procedure was not available here at that time and his
Uro told him today that as far as he knew, this was still the case. Does
anyone know otherwise? I am awaiting a response to an email sent to the
Queensland Cancer Foundation but Google has not turned up anything useful so
far.

In case you are wondering why this option is being considered, take a look
at this link for example:

http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/localdis/bahn_cryoablation.html

Joe's numbers put him in the "High Risk" category as per this article and
Fig.4 shows the 5-year Biochemical Disease Free rates for sampled patients
in this group (2003, Katz and Rewcastle study) - Cryoablation scores very
well as long as the highly likely side effect of impotence is acceptable.

Cheers
Malcolm

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Stephen Jordan - 26 Apr 2005 20:10 GMT

> Hi you may recall me writing about my friend Joe and his decision making
> process recently (initially a question about possible side-effects of a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> secondary%20Transperitoneal%20Cryotherapy.pdf ) which states that the
> procedure was not available here at that time and his Uro told him today > that as far as he knew, this was still the case. Does anyone know > otherwise?

I should think that there is probably a good reason why it is not available in Australia. It's been on the menu elsewhere for many years.

Here's my experiance with it:

I had a Gleason 9 tumor staged at T2b, PSA 5.7 in November, 2003, when I
underwent a cryo procedure. PSA thereafter rose at an alarming rate and
another biopsy disclosed a Gleason 8 tumor in the other lobe. According to
Bostwick, the G9 tumor had been transformed into a "mass" that was "highly
suspicious for but not diagnostic of carcinoma." The newly-discovered G8
had not been damaged at all. And this was reportedly a "full freeze."

I have spoken with two rad oncs much of whose practices is post-cryo
salvage RT.

I finished IMRT on October 14, 2004, and am on ADT. We'll see.

Of course, this is anectdotal and I am aware that others have had good
results. But would I do it again? No. Probably would select
brachytherapy, knowing what I now know.

This sort of thing is the reason I urge everyone to educate themselves
about their disease. I didn't and am paying the price.

If Malcolm's friend elects to proceed with cryo, I recommend he seek out one of the "artists" in the USA. Douglas Chinn in Southern California comes immediately to mind. Mine was done bya local yokel, and I suspect that I was among his first.

There's a cynical saying about certification to perform a medical procedure:
"Watch one, do one, teach."

Regards,

Steve J

"There is nothing sadder than the brutal murder of a beautiful theory by a
gang of ugly facts." --Francois, Duc de la Rochefoucauld

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Stephen Jordan - 26 Apr 2005 21:52 GMT

> Hi you may recall me writing about my friend Joe and his decision making
> process recently (initially a question about possible side-effects of a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> a response to an email sent to the Queensland Cancer Foundation but Google
> has not turned up anything useful so far.

I should think that there is a good reason why it is not available in Australia.

Here's my experience with cryosurgery:

I had a Gleason 9 tumor staged at T2b (should have been a c), PSA 5.7 in November 2003, when I underwent a cryo procedure. PSA shortly thereafter rose at an alarming rate and another biopsy discovered a Gleason 8 tumor in the other lobe. It had not been affected at all by the alleged "full freeze."

According to Bostwick (a very capable specialist laboratory), the G9 tumor had been transformed into a "mass" that was "highly suspicious for but not diagnostic of carcinoma."

I have spoken with two radiation oncologists, one of them the man who did the salvage IMRT on me, and learned that much of their practices consists of post-cryo salvage RT.

I finished the salvage IMRT on October 14, 2004, and am on ADT.

Of course, this is anecdotal and I am aware that others have had good results. But would I do cryo again? NO. I probably would select brachytherapy, knowing what I now know.

This sort of thing is the reason that I urge every newly-diagnosed man to educate himself aboout his disease and take charge of his case. I didn't and am paying an unreasonable price.

If Malcolm's friend elects to proceed with cryo, I recommend that he seek out one of the "artists" in the USA. Douglas Chinn in Southern California comes to mind. My cryo was done by a local yokel uro, and I suspect that I was among his first.

There's a cynical saying about certification to perform a medical procedure: "Watch one, do one, teach."

Regards,

Steve J

"There is nothing sadder than the brutal murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of ugly facts."

--Francois, Duc de la Rochefoucauld

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Stephen Jordan - 26 Apr 2005 22:04 GMT

Subject: Re: Cryosurgery/Cryoablation in Australia?
Date: 04/26/2005 13:52:42
From: Stephen Jordan <mycroftscj@earthlink.net>
Organization: Jordan
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer.prostate

I should think that there is a good reason why it is not available in
Australia.

Here's my experience with cryosurgery:

I had a Gleason 9 tumor staged at T2b (should have been a c), PSA 5.7 in
November 2003, when I underwent a cryo procedure. PSA shortly thereafter
rose at an alarming rate and another biopsy discovered a Gleason 8 tumor in
the other lobe. It had not been affected at all by the alleged "full
freeze."

According to Bostwick (a very capable specialist laboratory), the G9 tumor
had been transformed into a "mass" that was "highly suspicious for but not
diagnostic of carcinoma."

I have spoken with two radiation oncologists, one of them the man who did
the salvage IMRT on me, and learned that much of their practices consists
of post-cryo salvage RT.

I finished the salvage IMRT on October 14, 2004, and am on ADT.

Of course, this is anecdotal and I am aware that others have had good
results. But would I do cryo again? NO. I probably would select
brachytherapy, knowing what I now know.

This sort of thing is the reason that I urge every newly-diagnosed man to
educate himself aboout his disease and take charge of his case. I didn't
and am paying an unreasonable price.

If Malcolm's friend elects to proceed with cryo, I recommend that he seek
out one of the "artists" in the USA. Douglas Chinn in Southern California
comes to mind. My cryo was done by a local yokel uro, and I suspect that I
was among his first.

There's a cynical saying about certification to perform a medical
procedure: "Watch one, do one, teach."

Regards,

Steve J

"There is nothing sadder than the brutal murder of a beautiful theory by a
gang of ugly facts."

--Francois, Duc de la Rochefoucauld

Reply to this Message

Stephen Jordan - 27 Apr 2005 00:08 GMT

On 04/26/2005 I wrote:

> Subject: Re: Cryosurgery/Cryoablation in Australia?
> Date: 04/26/2005 13:52:42
> From: Stephen Jordan <mycroftscj@earthlink.net>
> Organization: Jordan
> Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer.prostate

Responding to Malcolm.

Three times. First two were drafts. Really.

Still having probs with my new newsgroup program. Yeah, it's the machine's fault, not mine :-(

Regards,

Steve J

Rats. Grrrr.

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Clarence Crow - 26 Apr 2005 23:03 GMT

>Hi you may recall me writing about my friend Joe and his decision making
>process recently (initially a question about possible side-effects of a
>biopsy) - well as suggested here, he has continued to research with
>diligence and has now added Cryosurgery to his shortlist of options.

<snip>
Cryosurgery is still in the minority of treatment options, globally
and, to my knowledge, is not practiced in Australia.

You haven't listed Joe's current diagnoses status, so we cannot
suggest any direction with regards to treatment option/s.

You may like to contact these people for options on Radiotherapy and
HDR Brachytherapy. (I'm in one of their Clincal Trials in West Oz.)

http://www.ranzcr.edu.au/affiliatedgroups/trog/index.cfm

-- Reader to complete...
-- Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake:

-- Regards

-- CC

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Malcolm - 27 Apr 2005 00:41 GMT

I too am having computer problems (can't be me, surely ;-) ) - this time my
NG reader (IE6) was telling me that there had been no posts at all on this
NG since my last one, despite me fiddling with download options. I
finally had to reset the whole group and download from zero to see new
messages. But I digress...

Joe's numbers were as follows:
PSA: 6-Oct '03 = 3.6; 3-Apr '04 = 7.4; 15-Apr '05 = 9.5
Stage: T2a
Gleason: 8 (don't know the breakdown) - cancer present in 2 of 6 core
samples taken.
Bone and CAT scans reveal no detectable spreading at this stage, but his Uro
is concerned that the shape of the growth indicates that time is of the
essence.

The biopsy was completed last week, he has discussed the situation with his
GP and his Uro (twice). He is 67 but very fit for his age.

The latest PSA reading may well be falsely low because his GP suggested a
course of Saw-Palmetto 12 months ago - but let's not go there...

The Uro favours 6 months on hormones to cut Testosterone production and
shrink the cancer, then external beam radiation therapy - he is concerned
that due to the nature of the growth, surgery may leave some cancerous cells
behind.

Joe has read about cryo, likes the good results reported in recent tests, is
not too concerned about the major side effect of impotence and as of
yesterday, was thinking that it was his favoured option. Lack of
availability in Australia, and if available at all, lack of experienced
practitioners may colour his views now. I will be speaking to him later
today to see how his thoughts are shaping up.

I understand that points of view expressed here in this group will be
largely anecdotal, but hearing about experiences direct from people who have
been there is nevertheless very helpful in the decision making process -
thanks to all who have contributed.

Cheers
Malcolm

> You haven't listed Joe's current diagnoses status, so we cannot
> suggest any direction with regards to treatment option/s.

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Clarence Crow - 27 Apr 2005 01:53 GMT

Sorry had to go back to read re Joe's symptoms.

You have linear accelerators at Townsville Hospital for Radiation
Treatment.
You can receive Hormone Treatment there too.
I noticed they also had some mention of Brachytherapy equipment, but
not too much on it for Prostate Cancer.

The Mater Hospital in South Brisbane is more comprehensively suited
with Facilities, Equipment and Specialists.
http://www.mmri.mater.org.au/

I don't know the details of the Qld. Govt. Health support and what
your current Financial situation is.

-- Reader to complete...
-- Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake:

-- Regards

-- CC

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Malcolm - 28 Apr 2005 01:14 GMT

Thanks for that input folks. Joe just called in and has made his final
decision. Cryo is apparently not available to the general public anywhere
in Australia yet, 'though research is being carried out. The risks of
leaving cancerous cells behind with RP are too high in his case so he has
chosen the hormone/radiation treatment option available at the local
hospital. The referral has been sent to the Oncologist and he is awaiting
a response now. Finances are limited so he will be relying on the public
health system. Any suggestions as to how we might ensure that action is
taken ASAP would be welcome at this stage - his Uro described his current
condition is being "like a tinder box" so speed is of the essence.

Joe specifically asked me to thank all contributors to this group, it has
helped him with his decision-making process tremendously.

Cheers
Malcolm

> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:43:42 +1000, "Malcolm"
> You have linear accelerators at Townsville Hospital for Radiation
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I don't know the details of the Qld. Govt. Health support and what
> your current Financial situation is.

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Malcolm - 28 Apr 2005 01:29 GMT

Thanks for that input folks. Joe just called in and has made his final
decision. Cryo is apparently not available to the general public
anywhere in Australia yet, 'though research is being carried out. The
risks of leaving cancerous cells behind with RP are too high in his case so
he has chosen the hormone/radiation treatment option available at the local
hospital. The referral has been sent to the Oncologist and he is
awaiting a response now. Finances are limited so he will be relying on
the public health system. Any suggestions as to how we might ensure that
action is taken ASAP would be welcome at this stage - his Uro described his
current condition is being "like a tinder box" so speed is of the essence.

Joe specifically asked me to thank all contributors to this group, it has
helped him with his decision-making process tremendously.

Cheers
Malcolm

> You have linear accelerators at Townsville Hospital for Radiation
> Treatment.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I don't know the details of the Qld. Govt. Health support and what
> your current Financial situation is.

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