Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / April 2005
Malpractice
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PeteBos - 25 Apr 2005 02:50 GMT I am 65 with a Gleason 7 prostate cancer facing LRP soon. Looking through my records I find my PCP diagnosed BPH on a DRE in 1999. PSA showed an elevated level but he didn't indicate the reading.
Subsequent exams indicated BPH and elevated PSA and finally in mid 2003 he recored PSA 4.6. My PCP then checked it closely for 18 months and in December of 2004 with a PSA of 5.8 he sent me to a urologist for a biopsy. And, here I am.
Seems to me he waited too long and has exposed me to more risk. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Pete
I. P. Freely - 25 Apr 2005 04:04 GMT Yup. My primary care physician waited far longer, until my PSA doomed me to a tenfold increase in my likelihood of dying OF my PC, according to one recent study. But given the large number of docs who say PSA testing is unwarranted alarmist pap, ignoring PSAs of any level, let alone a "measly" 4.6, is within the bounds of sound practice. Malpractice requires rock-solid proof a doc was acting WAY outside ANY acceptable norms, and establishment of exactly how and how much his extreme negligence ruined your life.
All I could do was "fire" him as my primary care physician, file a complaint with the local VA patient advocate, and write a letter to the VA explaining this and other gross errors he had made. My other docs, asked about my specific PSA history, just said, "Yup. I'd have acted much sooner. But did he harm you? There's no way to know."
I.P.
>I am 65 with a Gleason 7 prostate cancer facing LRP soon. Looking > through my records I find my PCP diagnosed BPH on a DRE in 1999. PSA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pete Steve Kramer - 25 Apr 2005 13:04 GMT BTW, lest there be any confusion, I agree with you re your case. You were over the early-90s accepted limit and your missed dx was well into the 'increase means something' era. Something should have been done.
It's a shame you didn't find this NG in 2000. The accumulated knowledge here quite probably would have saved your life. And, who knows, maybe your colon cancer would have been found faster too.
> Yup. My primary care physician waited far longer, until my PSA doomed me to > a tenfold increase in my likelihood of dying OF my PC, according to one [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > Pete Dave LaCourse - 25 Apr 2005 17:29 GMT >BTW, lest there be any confusion, I agree with you re your case. You were >over the early-90s accepted limit and your missed dx was well into the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >here quite probably would have saved your life. And, who knows, maybe your >colon cancer would have been found faster too. Steve, he didn't record a 4+ until 2003 at age 63, and that is when his doctor started to monitor it more closely over an 18 month period. When it went over 4, his doc took action. I think the doc did ok.
Dave
Steve Kramer - 26 Apr 2005 04:06 GMT My mistake. I thought there was a 4.6 reading, then an 8+ before treatment. Maybe I'm confusing his Gleason.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> >BTW, lest there be any confusion, I agree with you re your case. You were > >over the early-90s accepted limit and your missed dx was well into the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Dave Dave LaCourse - 25 Apr 2005 12:28 GMT >I am 65 with a Gleason 7 prostate cancer facing LRP soon. Looking >through my records I find my PCP diagnosed BPH on a DRE in 1999. PSA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Pete So, you had a enlarged prostate gland six years ago. From what I've read and experienced, BPH has nothing to do with prostate cancer. There seems to be no connection between the two. At age 55, I too had an enlarged prostate, but the psa was normal for that age.
You were 63 when the doc recorded a psa of 4.6 - just a little higher than normal, but I believe still within the normal range, and he obviously didn't feel anything with his DRE. You admit he "checked it closely for 18 months" which seems to be very prudent. When he noticed a rise, he sent you to the uro. I see no malpractice here. In fact, I think your doc served you well.
Dave
Steve Kramer - 25 Apr 2005 12:56 GMT Pete,
PSA use, as a diagnostic tool, has gone through several iterations in its relatively short history. And each time, the golden standard of use is a phased in affair. First, a researcher discovers it, then a few doctors accept it, then it is published, etc., etc., etc. At some point it becomes widely adopted by all medical resources and universally used.
I am told by an Estonian that the upper limit for PSA at one time in the US was 10. I know through the 90s, the upper limit was 4. I still hear today, of doctors using that as their yardstick. And, I guess for the first time a man is checked for PSA, the standard is still solid.
However, during 1999, it was not widely accepted that an increase in PSA meant anything if the level had not reached 4. Or, if it was widely accepted, and even if widely published, it was not inculcated by the vast majority of the primary care physicians until later. During October 2000, I was told that 4 was the milestone.
So, did he wait too long? If you had a steady progression of PSA, in hind-sight, yes, he probably waited too long. Did he know that a steady progression of PSA even though under 4.0 was indicative of cancer? Probably not.
I teach my PCP about the newest things in PCa and I consider him to be one of the finest PCPs around (based on anecdotal evidence of my experience and that of my extended family). I learn so much from this newsgroup that I even think I can stump my uro every now and then. I haven't after 4½ years, but I keep trying.
As long as you read this NG and as long as your PCP has to keep up to speed with an infinite number of maladies, you will always know more than he about one -- Prostate Cancer.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum
> I am 65 with a Gleason 7 prostate cancer facing LRP soon. Looking > through my records I find my PCP diagnosed BPH on a DRE in 1999. PSA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pete PeteBos - 25 Apr 2005 15:46 GMT I probably don't have a case here but let me add a few more details.
In 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 my annual DRE showed an enlarged prostate and my PSA was elevated (don't know the values but I could get them from my medical records). My doc recorded BPH but there is no way for him to know if its BPH or cancer without doing a biopsy. My DREs in 2003 and 2004 continued to show an enlarged prostate (which doc recorded as BPH) and my PSA varied from 4.6 to 5.8.
I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me that the combination of an enlarged prostate plus elevated PSA is cause for a biopsy.
Pete
Dave LaCourse - 25 Apr 2005 16:03 GMT >I probably don't have a case here but let me add a few more details. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Pete Pete, I had an enlarged prostate for about four years, but my psa was "normal" for a man my age. It was only when the doc felt a change in the *shape*, not the *size*, of the prostate did he consider a biopsy. And, neither he nor the urologist thought there was anything wrong, but agreed that a biopsy should be done as a precaution. I rang the Gleason bell with a *9*.
From all that I've read/heard about enlarged prostates (BPH), there is no connection with prostate cancer. In 1999 you were 59 (??) and if your psa was higher than 4, I'd be surprized. If your doc felt something besides size, he goofed. My doc took notes and sketches on the size and shape of the gland, and the change is what set off his alarm, not the psa.
I think your doc served you well. He saved your life.
Dave
Tdub - 25 Apr 2005 16:35 GMT Although we love Mr. Freely's sage advice, and witty style (GO, I.P.!), his characterization of what is malpractice is, shall we say, tends toward the hyperbolic. Instead, it is whether the physician didn't follow the "standard of care" and this caused damage to you. So it's premature to draw a conclusion B4 surgery. I wouldn't worry at this point anyway, because it is more than likely that surgery will be able to remove all the PCa. Finally, your PCa readings were marginal in terms of taking the next step, so it is less likely that your physician committed malpractice.
I. P. Freely - 25 Apr 2005 17:44 GMT My comments summarized a lawyer's lengthier (duh!) and even more discouraging advice.
I.P.
> Although we love Mr. Freely's sage advice, and witty style (GO, I.P.!), > his characterization of what is malpractice is, shall we say, tends > toward the hyperbolic. Instead, it is whether the physician didn't > follow the "standard of care" and this caused damage to you. judamd@aol.com - 26 Apr 2005 00:09 GMT An enlarged prostate is not a cancerous prostate. Your PSA was a little high with every indication it was due to your BPH. Your doc suggested you and he keep an eye on it which you both did and when it got higher than the accepted norm, he sent you to a specialist. Every one of us on this newsgroup wishes we had done the biopsy earlier but that's all hindsight. I know now I had cancer when my PSA was 2.8 but there was no reason to suspect cancer by the standards of the day (six years ago). Your doc did nothing wrong and he was well within the window of standard practice. He could have just as easily said the high PSA was due to the enlarged prostate and let it go at that - not at all uncommon five or six years ago. In fact, the more I think about it and the more I write, the more I think you should thank him for saving your life. Dave Perry
James A Honeychuck - 25 Apr 2005 17:05 GMT > I am 65 with a Gleason 7 prostate cancer facing LRP soon. Looking > through my records I find my PCP diagnosed BPH on a DRE in 1999. PSA [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Seems to me he waited too long and has exposed me to more risk. The Partin Tables are one way to gauge how much more risk. They show your case to be very weak.
http://urology.jhu.edu/prostate/partintables.php
You need a better argument if you hope to burn that doctor.
jimhoney
Does
> anyone have any experience with this? > > Pete Alan Meyer - 25 Apr 2005 22:16 GMT > ... > Seems to me he waited too long and has exposed me to more risk. Does > anyone have any experience with this? > ... I agree with the others that there's no case for a charge of malpractice here.
One of the problems of health care is that primary care physicians are required to know about such a huge range of problems that they don't know enough about each one.
A doctor may see 40 patients in a day, one with flu, one with breast cancer, one with AIDS, one with congestive heart failure, one with ingrown fingernail, one with hemmorhoids, one with a pain in her hip, one with a chronic headache, and on and on. The next day may bring 40 patients with completely different problems, and the next day 40 more.
In your particular case, the doctor was at least knowledgeable enough to know that your PSA was high and needed watching. And he did send you to a specialist when it got clearly above the national guidelines for a normal reading. It would be nice if he did that earlier, but he could well be in the top half of doctors for doing it at all. Many doctors don't even give PSA tests to their patients.
My doctor saw a PSA reading of 3.7 (I probably had cancer then) and said, "it's normal". She didn't even tell me to come back for another test in a year. When I came back for a physical 2 years later, she didn't even request a PSA test for me - an alert lab tech added it. I too wound up with a Gleason 4+3 when it probably could have been caught two years earlier at a much more treatable stage.
In the best of all possible worlds, your doc would have done better and you would have been diagnosed earlier, with a somewhat higher chance of a cure (though your chances are probably still pretty good.) But unless you see other ways in which the guy has not done a good job, I'd cut him some slack on this one and chalk up the cancer to the luck of the draw.
Alan
c palmer - 26 Apr 2005 01:12 GMT hi pete - while you may feel that you MIGHT have a case. the only thing i could find that would support your case was that if you died from being failed to diagnose the disease. well, the doctor did his job, and for that reason, can not be sued for what he is paid to do. you had a problem, he found the problem. if you check the strong example cases for malpractice, you might find some of them interesting.
hope this helps.
~ curtis
From the 'Lectric Law Library's stacks What Is A Strong Malpractice Case
Examples of strong cases.
It is most important that a plaintiff's medical malpractice lawyer screen cases and accept only those that are worthwhile. (In some states, the lawyer must certify that he has reviewed the matter with a qualified physician who states that the case is "meritorious.") Often the experienced lawyer can tell if the case is worthwhile from the first contact with the client. If it is not, the client should be informed immediately; the legal and medical systems should not be cluttered with the prosecution of worthless cases. True medical malpractice consists of negligent conduct that causes damage. There may be "malpractice" from a theoretical point of view, but if the conduct has not caused injury it is not a matter for the legal system. Sometimes there may be true "malpractice" but no residual damage. These are not strong cases. Juries are not all interested in a past history of damage; they do become interested when a plaintiff can show permanent injury. (1) The following are examples of such cases. Anesthesia A patient underwent surgery with Halothane (fluothane) as the anesthetic agent, even though he had suffered previous biliary tract disease, which made the use of this anesthetic contraindicated. The patient died as a result of liver necrosis due to the effects of the anesthetic. A trainee anesthesiologist ran out of oxygen before the operation was completed, causing the patient to suffer a fatal cardiac arrest. A patient who underwent surgery for the repair of a pilonidal cyst under epidural anesthesia ended up with permanent uncontrolled movement of the lower extremities. Angiography A patient underwent angiography (dye study of the arteries). The procedure was improperly performed, and the patient suffered brain damage. Burn treatment A patient suffering from severe third-degree burns received inadequate and improper "burn therapy." Childbirth A child was born with a blood problem-Rh incompatibility-antibodies developed by the mother were destroying the blood in the baby. The attending physicians and hospital personnel failed to detect the child's condition. A mother who was a diabetic gave birth to a child suffering from "large baby snydrome," and proper care was not excercised in delivering the child. The baby suffered a shoulder-brachial plexus injury. A newborn baby with a metabolic disorder was improperly diagnosed and monitored by the attending physician and hospital nurses. The child suffered permanent brain damage. A pregnant patient was improperly evaluated and monitored during pregnancy and labor; a difficult delivery ensued, and the baby was born with permanent brain damage. A patient in labor suffered prolapse of the cord. An emergency Cesarean section was delayed, and the baby suffered permanent brain damage. A patient's obstetrician was twenty minutes late, and delivery room nurses had to deliver her child. Then, although the infant was suffering from respiratory distress, a pediatrician was not called for several hours. The child is brain-damaged and requires life-long care. (See §6.4 herein.) Diabetes uncontrolled An attending physician failed to control a patient's diabetes and potassium deficiency; the patient died. Diagnostic ERCP - Negligent injection of dy During an endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatography (ERCP), an inexperienced nurse injected the dye too forcefully and caused the patient to develop pancreatitis and other debilitating injuries. (See §4.3 herein.) Diet error An accident victim's operation to repair a skull fracture was delayed twenty-four hours because the patient was fed a regular diet by nursing personnel, despite a physician's order that the patient was to receive nothing by mouth. The patient suffered permanent brain damage. Drug addiction A patient underwent unnecessary surgery that resulted in severe pain for which addictive medication was prescribed. The patient became a drug addict. Drug reaction A patient with a minor infection repeatedly was given sulfa medication without proper indication. The patient suffered Stevens-Johnson syndrome and permanent eye damage. Errors in diagnosis generally A child swallowed foreign metal material, and the attending physician failed to diagnose the trouble. The child died. A child ingested an alkaline solution and at the hospital emergency room the physician used the wrong antidote. The child suffered permanent esophageal injury. A child was born with congenitally dislocated hips, but the attending obstetrician and pediatrician failed to diagnose the condition. There was permanent disability. A patient suffered from cancer, but the attending physician failed to diagnose the disease. The cancer spread and the patient died. A patient ingested insecticide. His physician incorrectly diagnosed his condition, and failed to administer the proper antidote. The outcome was permanent brain damage. A patient suffered from ulcerative colitis of the sigmoid colon. His attending physicians failed to perform a sigmoidoscope examination, and the condition progressed, finally requiring removal of a large part of the colon. A patient suffering from appendicitis was misdiagnosed; the appendix ruptured, and the patient developed fatal peritonitis. A woman had a cancerous condition of the leg, but an inaccurate diagnosis was made, and the patient was subjected to heat and ultrasonic treatments. The cancer spread and the patient died. A patient who fell was taken to the hospital emergency room where a diagnosis of inebriation was made. The patient actually had a fractured spine and a severed spinal cord. The result was permanent paraplegia. Following surgery, a patient complained of difficulty in swallowing and pain in his throat. His neurosurgeon mistook the symptoms for a sore throat and did not come to see him. The patient died the next day from aspirating vomit. (See §9.5 herein.) An on-call ophthalmologist, without seeing the patient, diagnosed his eye pain, sensitivity to light, and nausea as sinusitis, when in fact it was acute angle closure glaucoma. The patient lost sight in the eye. (See §14.2 herein.) A urologist who visually inspected and palpated a patient's suspected testicle tumor by surgically pulling it up through the inguinal canal concluded that it was only an inflammatory process when in fact it was malignant. (See §17.4 herein.) Experimental therapy A patient complaining of low back pain received an injection of an experimental enzyme into a vertebral disc, causing a neurological deficit. An experimental implantation of a muscle in the spinal cord resulted in quadriplegia. Fractures A patient suffered a fracture of the forearm that was improperly set, resulting in Volkmann's contracture and permanent disability. Even though a patient with a hip fracture was under a physician's care, X-rays of the hip were not made for nine days, during which time the patient was allowed to walk. The patient suffered severe narrowing of the hip joint and permanent disability. Heart surgery A patient with coarctation of the aorta underwent surgical repair, but the heart-lung by-pass machine was not in operation, and the patient suffered nerve damage and paraplegia. A patient underwent an unnecessary heart catheterization and developed a blood clot in the leg that was improperly evaluated. The patient suffered permanent disability. Hemorrhage uncontrolled A patient suffered from hemorrhage of esophageal varices. He was not given prompt and adequate treatment, and he died. A patient was admitted to a hospital for minor surgery and was allowed to suffer from an uncontrolled nose bleed, causing shock and irreversible brain damage. Hysterectomies During an hysterectomy the patient suffered a severance of the ureter that went unnoticed. The patient lost a kidney. A patient underwent an hysterectomy and experienced severe bleeding. Later a severe infection developed, as did other disabilities that required additional surgeries and transfusions. Kidney operation A child suffered from a kidney disorder. During surgery the wrong technique was employed and the kidney was lost. Laboratory erro A laboratory report stated that a small growth removed from a patient's arm was simply a benign inflamed mole, when in fact it was malignant melanoma. (See §16.3.) Medication inadequate A child suffering from meningitis was sent home with a prescription that was inadequate and inappropriate. The disease progressed, and the child suffered permanent brain damage. Pap smear not followed-u A Pap smear taken from a patient who was complaining of vaginal bleeding showed "extremely suspicious cells," but her HMO gynecologist did not follow up with a later test, and her cervical cancer was not diagnosed for another two years. Also, the laboratory report was insufficient. (See §16.3.) Priapism A male patient suffering from an earache was given a diagnostic spinal tap, after which he experienced a painful erection of the penis (priapism). Treatment was delayed, and when finally accomplished, bandages were applied too tightly, causing the patient to suffer permanent partial impotency and strictures of the urethra. Spinal surgery A patient complained of low back pain and underwent removal of a disc. There was nerve injury, causing the patient severe pain. Thereafter he had to undergo various operations on the spinal cord, all of which were unsuccessful. A patient was injured in a serious automobile accident and underwent back surgery. A tear in the dura was not diagnosed, and the patient developed meningitis and died. A patient underwent low back surgery for the removal of a disc. During the approach, an instrument accidentally went through the spinal canal and into the patient's abdominal cavity. A major blood vessel was lacerated, which almost took the patient's life. A patient underwent low back surgery following a minor fall. There was no objective medical evidence whatsoever to justify surgical intervention. The patient suffered emotional and physical disability, and attempted suicide. A patient undergoing a cervical laminectomy suffered from a preexisting osteophytic condition that contraindicated extension or flexion of his head or neck more than ten to twelve degrees. The nurse anesthetist who intubated and anesthetized him was never told of this condition. Following the operation, the patient awoke from the anesthetic a quadriplegic. (See §1.2 herein). During an elective lumbar laminectomy, an orthopaedic surgeon caused a tear in the dura that resulted in a complete evacuation of cerebrospinal fluid, which in turn caused a brainstem herniation and death. (See §8.6 herein.) Stomach surgery A patient underwent surgery for removal of a portion of the stomach. Anastomosis (joinder of parts) failed, and the patient required further surgery with prolonged disability. Unnecessary stomach surgery was improperly performed, requiring three additional major operations, and a prolonged period of disability. A patient underwent surgery for the repair of a duodenal ulcer. He suffered duct damage during the procedure, and required four additional operations. He was permanently disabled. Surgical infections An orthopaedic physician improperly reduced a fracture and failed to take adequate precautions to prevent infection. When the infection occurred, it was improperly treated. The patient suffered extended disability. A child suffered from a congenital defect in a lower extremity. Surgery was performed without proper drainage, and the child developed infection that went unnoticed. There was a delay in treatment, which necessitated further surgery, and resulted in permanent damage. Tracheostomy injury A tracheostomy was performed at an incorrect level, then the tube was improperly attended by hospital nurses. The patient suffered erosion of the innominate artery, and bled to death. Transferred without consent A patient suffered from pancreatitis. While being transferred to another hospital without consent, she suffered severe brain damage and remained in a comatose condition until she finally died several years later. Treatment delayed when patient not accepted An attending physician failed to diagnose coronary occlusion and the patient was not hospitalized. When the patient's condition deteriorated, and he finally was ordered into a hospital, the hospital refused to accept him. He was transferred to another hospital but did not survive. § 25.6 Fee arrangement-Advancing costs. Most medical malpractice cases for the plaintiff are handled on a contingent fee basis. Ordinarily this ranges from 331/3 to 50% of the recovery after costs are deducted "off the top." Medical malpractice cases are such that usually there will be no settlement, nor even negotiations toward settlement, until the lawsuit has been filed and all essential depositions have been taken. In most well-prepared cases, there is virtually a trial through the discovery process before the actual trial in court. Therefore, "sliding scale" contingent fees (i.e., 25% before the suit is filed, 331/3/% after the suit is filed, 40% if the case goes to trial, 50% if the case goes on appeal, etc.) are not in vogue. But, of course, this is a matter of individual negotiation between you and your client, and should be in accordance with your local custom and practice. Some states now have statutes limiting contingent fees in medical malpractice cases. 2 After the first interview with your client, you may deem it necessary to have him or her sign a contingent fee agreement, subject, of course, to your right to withdraw should you find the case unmeritorious after additional investigation. This fee agreement may provide, if permissible in your jurisdiction, that you have the right to advance costs on behalf of the client (and the right to be reimbursed). Ordinarily, the victim of medical malpractice has been plunged into a financial abyss, and is unable to undertake the cost of the investigation and prosecution of the case. The matter will move much more expeditiously if you are in a position to advance the necessary expense of investigation and litigation. These advances usually do not include any sums for medical care and treatment, however, and are limited to the necessary expenses for medical reviews and examinations, and costs of investigation, depositions and the like. -------- Excerpted from Medical Malpractice, Third Edition, § 25 by David M. Harney Copyright 1993, The Michie Company, 1-800-446-3410 http://www.michie.com
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
ronbruce@gmail.com - 26 Apr 2005 04:07 GMT I visited my GP for a regular chlorestorol checkup, I mentioned that I had had an ache in my groin for a week or two following some heavy lifting. The doc checked me for a hernia, negative. I suggested that I have a PSA test, just for luck.
The result came back PSA 5.4, the doc thought that as I was a healthy 65yo, it wasn't a high reading, but I asked him to do a DRE anyway.
He felt no enlargement , but some irregularities. When I asked for a referal to see a Uro, he gave me a rave about how terrible prostate removal was for a man, with lifetime incontinence and ED. He gave me the referal anyway as I was still concerned why my groin ached!
The Uro did a biopsy that came back Gleason 7 and told me to read up on PCa and prostate removal. Luckily I discovered this web saite and Dr Walshes book, found the top surgeon in my capitol city. The groin strain had gone by now!
I had an RRP on 12 October, my PSA a week ago was <.03 and I'm almost continent but still have ED problems , but hey, I'm alive and well.
The GP has since left the practise, I was not impressed with his advice.
Ronaldo
Dave LaCourse - 26 Apr 2005 12:42 GMT >The GP has since left the practise, I was not impressed with his >advice. Nor am I! He should have been giving you a DRE every year along with a PSA reading. Good for you for doing *his* work.
Dave
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