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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / April 2005

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Just curious - B12

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J - 05 Apr 2005 00:29 GMT
How many of you get screened for B12 deficiiency?
You'll see why in Table 2 - might explain why some have more difficulty
with impotence after RP.
http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2001/07_01/dharmarajan.htm

Please also note that it can lead to a form of irreversible senility.

Here's the spiel...as we age, we lose the ability to absorb B12.
In addiition, there are other conditions and/or factors which interfere
with B12 absorption.
(that webpage mentions many of them).
Acid lowering medications/proton pump inhibitors is one potential
cause/aggravation of an otherwise aging problem.

The solution, if low is B12 injections.
I had 1,000 units injected weekly for 10 weeks. The Vial of 10,000 units
is fairly cheap - maybe $20 CDN.
That gives a good immediate boost; then I continue to get monitored every
6 months or so.
If the levels start going below normal, I will restart the injections and
probably monitor for life and/or as long as I'm on the proton pump
inhibitor.  Then monitor and re-evaluate if the B12 levels continue to go
lower.

Note that they mention oral or nasal supplementation. I suspect the nasal
might be expensive and I don't know the side effects if any and/or when a
person can blow their nose (or not) ;-).  Seriously though perhaps nasal
is more difficult to control the specific dose.  "overdosing" isn't a
problem, just a waste of $$..

Since absorption is a problem (unless there was some temporary reason for
the lowered level which has since been resolved), there's no point in
orally supplementing. My doctor told me that.  I've since been taking oral
B vitamins to try and improve something else and it's not improving, so
I'm pretty sure he's right.

If cost of having a nurse/physician do the injections is problematic, a
nurse or doctor can show the person how to give themselves the injections
in the shoulder or in the butt.

FYI and FWIW
J-not an expert
Tom Cular - 05 Apr 2005 01:24 GMT
J,
A few months ago my GP, in the normal course of things told me that I was
anemic, this was surprising as my diet covers it all, (the only thing I
don't eat is Purina Puppy Chow),. I mentioned to her, and gave her a copy of
an abstract re:androgen deprivation and anemia. She ordered another series
of blood tests and following the results of those, put me on B-12. I can't
say that I feel like I'm 20, but I sure feel better.
Tom
> How many of you get screened for B12 deficiiency?
> You'll see why in Table 2 - might explain why some have more difficulty
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> FYI and FWIW
> J-not an expert
I. P. Freely - 05 Apr 2005 03:02 GMT
For all those reasons, I use sublingual B-12. Dirt cheap, absorbs well,
bypasses the GI system, no shots or doc visits. My geriatric psychologist
cousin highly recommends it as something everyone our age should do, as
shortage is almost guaranteed by retirement age, normal ODs can't hurt, and
the price of sublingual pills (I use Twin Labs) runs $20 a year.

I.P.

> How many of you get screened for B12 deficiiency?
> You'll see why in Table 2 - might explain why some have more difficulty
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> FYI and FWIW
> J-not an expert
I. P. Freely - 05 Apr 2005 03:04 GMT
Oh, yes . . . and irreversible nerve damage imperceptible until it's
serious.

I.P.

"J" <banish@invalid.anon> wrote >
> Please also note that it can lead to a form of irreversible senility.
KCTom - 05 Apr 2005 03:34 GMT
I have a neurology problem with my feet. My neurologist has my B-12
monitored every 6 months. I've been on B-12 since
1979 due to the crohns in the terminal Ileum After a resect of the terminal
Ileum in 1994, have been on shots every 2 weeks.
That keeps the levels mid-way between the high and low acceptable levels. I
work as a volunteer in a cancer clinic, the
folks in the chemo room give me my shots on one of the days I'm working.
Tom
> Oh, yes . . . and irreversible nerve damage imperceptible until it's
> serious.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "J" <banish@invalid.anon> wrote >
>> Please also note that it can lead to a form of irreversible senility.
J - 05 Apr 2005 08:42 GMT
> I have a neurology problem with my feet. My neurologist has my B-12
> monitored every 6 months. I've been on B-12 since
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> folks in the chemo room give me my shots on one of the days I'm working.
> Tom

I think you should try sublingual and always be at the high end.
J
Glassman - 07 Apr 2005 06:56 GMT
     My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also
recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual
pill with all 3, that is very cheap and tases great. Now I'm as sharp as a
stick of butter!

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*7 years & 50 lbs permanently off Atkins Guy

--
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

JerryW - 08 Apr 2005 03:23 GMT
Glassman,

My cardiologist prescribed a vitamin combination of B6, B12 and Folic Acid
for me after taking me off additional C and E. It comes in a single pill and
is called Foltx.
Signature

JerryW
jweindel at flash dot net

2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62)
2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe
5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes
7/13/04 PSA <0.1
10/12/04 PSA <0.1
1/18/05 PSA <0.1

>      My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also
> recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual
> pill with all 3, that is very cheap and tases great. Now I'm as sharp as a
> stick of butter!
Glassman - 09 Apr 2005 02:49 GMT
> Glassman,
>
> My cardiologist prescribed a vitamin combination of B6, B12 and Folic Acid
> for me after taking me off additional C and E. It comes in a single pill and
> is called Foltx.
Why off the others, and substitute these?

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

JerryW - 09 Apr 2005 17:04 GMT
Glassman,

I'm already getting additional C and E in a multivitamin. Cardiologist
indicated the B6, B12 and folic acid combo was proving more effective for
post heart attack cardiovascular health than the additional vitamin C and E
(over the multivitamin amount). I have coronary artery disease; heart attack
in 2001. I try to keep the number of daily pills in the single-digit range,
if possible :-)
Signature

JerryW
jweindel at flash dot net

2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62)
2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe
5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes
7/13/04 PSA <0.1
10/12/04 PSA <0.1
1/18/05 PSA <0.1

>> Glassman,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> is called Foltx.
> Why off the others, and substitute these?
I. P. Freely - 09 Apr 2005 19:46 GMT
>      My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also
> recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual
> pill with all 3, that is very cheap and tases great. Now I'm as sharp as a
> stick of butter!

That's great. It's always encouraging to hear from the small percentage of
people who make the Atkins diet work long term. I trust you're monitoring
all the cardiovascular markers, including CRP, homocysteine, complete lipids
profile, etc. I'd think that with that much success, you could make a
broader, non-"diet" regimen, such as the healthier Mediterranean way of
eating, work for you, but I must assume you've tried that without success.

I.P.
Glassman - 09 Apr 2005 22:25 GMT
> >      My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also
> > recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I.P.

  Most people that I know of have had terrific long term success with a low
carb way of eating, so I don't know what your experience with it is that
supports your comment? My bloodwork, echo cardiogram, and even colonoscopy
are all perfect after 7 years of eating this way.  I eat lots of meat and
fat and my cholesterol is way down. Lots of energy, and I don't have to
worry about calories or portion size. There's a big misconception of exactly
what low carbers do and don't eat. It's not like it's bacon and eggs 7 days
a week. I eat salads, veggies, nuts, and berries along with fat & protein. I
don't eat rice. potato, pasta, or bread. No sugar or refined carbs ever. I
know people that have lost over 100 lbs and have been doing it for 30 years.

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

I. P. Freely - 10 Apr 2005 06:16 GMT
Yours sounds more like a modified version of Atkins, given the GOOD carbs
you ingest. Those veggies and berries sure help. I'm just still surprised
that whole grains aren't accepted as healthy by the Atkins gurus, given
their emphasis by the world's medical community. It's Atkins' sat fats,
especially the animal fats, and its lack of whole grains, that the medical
and health communities blast up one side and down the other. Foregoing
simple sugars and refined foods, especially refined carbs, is a big plus in
any diet (except when trying to recover energy from prolonged, hard physical
work or play). I haven't eaten white bread (90% of the stuff in
supermarkets) or ordinary pasta in decades, but I'll go through a loaf of
walnut cranberry raisin whole wheat bread smothered in seasoned olive oil in
a day or two with the medical community's blessing, as long as I burn up its
calories, and I my heaps of whole wheat pasta are very healthy.

I've had no personal experience with Atkins. What I HAVE done is spent
hundreds of hours researching it intensely in the medical and health
literature. Most people can't stick to it for long (I'm not sure why; a diet
of meat and cheese and ice cream and all the rest of the Atkins stuff sounds
great -- I plan to spend my last few months on that plus the dessert diet,
the pizza diet, the pastry diet, and the buffet diet in general.), and over
a year most Atkins dieters lose less weight than control groups on the food
pyramid/Mediterranean diet recommended by the medical and health worlds.
Just as I want my last check to bounce (and be made out to my undertaker), I
also see no reason to die slim and with low cholesterol; that's a waste of
good junk food IMO. I WOULD have to sweat calories or portion size on a
high-fat diet, as I've been kicked out of buffets twice for eating too much.

I wouldn't expect a  colonoscopy to be influenced by Atkins. Red meat is
only strongly SUSPECTED of promoting colon cancer, and probably takes
decades to bring it on, if it does. I cut my sat fat intake by probably 95%
two decades ago, and my colonoscopy was clear just three years ago; my
large, very life-threatening, colon cancer grew in just three years from
being invisible by colonoscopy to becoming now my most probable cause of
death , even with surgery. Fortunately for all the high-fat/protein dieters,
my case is just anecdotal, just a fourth decimal place contributor to the
statistics.

I.P.

> I don't know what your experience with it is that
> supports your comment? My bloodwork, echo cardiogram, and even colonoscopy
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> know people that have lost over 100 lbs and have been doing it for 30
> years.
Glassman - 10 Apr 2005 17:53 GMT
> Yours sounds more like a modified version of Atkins, given the GOOD carbs
> you ingest. Those veggies and berries sure help. I'm just still surprised
> that whole grains aren't accepted as healthy by the Atkins gurus, given
> their emphasis by the world's medical community.

     This is the Atkins plan. Nowhere does it say no carbs. Again, the
public's misconception is fostered by the food lobbys and activists that are
hurt in the pocketbook. . The first 2 weeks is a more strict plan to get
jump started. White bread or wheat bread or pasta,  it all turns to sugar as
soon as you chew it. It's allowed in moderation, but I'd rather get my carbs
from veggies and nuts. I'm a firm believer that sugars are the real killer
in our diet.  Diabetes, and heart desease and cancer are all feed by sugar.
All those fat studies are basically questionable because carbs were never
taken into account. High fat eaters, are high carb eaters as well.
    I agree that I have no interest in eating tree bark to die skinny. I
eat tons of great food on this plan, and am never hungry.
    Sorry to hear of your colon probs. I'm going back for another
colonoscopy in 3 years. Now hearing of your untimely and quick progression,
I'll be more worried.

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

 
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