Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / April 2005
Just curious - B12
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J - 05 Apr 2005 00:29 GMT How many of you get screened for B12 deficiiency? You'll see why in Table 2 - might explain why some have more difficulty with impotence after RP. http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2001/07_01/dharmarajan.htm
Please also note that it can lead to a form of irreversible senility.
Here's the spiel...as we age, we lose the ability to absorb B12. In addiition, there are other conditions and/or factors which interfere with B12 absorption. (that webpage mentions many of them). Acid lowering medications/proton pump inhibitors is one potential cause/aggravation of an otherwise aging problem.
The solution, if low is B12 injections. I had 1,000 units injected weekly for 10 weeks. The Vial of 10,000 units is fairly cheap - maybe $20 CDN. That gives a good immediate boost; then I continue to get monitored every 6 months or so. If the levels start going below normal, I will restart the injections and probably monitor for life and/or as long as I'm on the proton pump inhibitor. Then monitor and re-evaluate if the B12 levels continue to go lower.
Note that they mention oral or nasal supplementation. I suspect the nasal might be expensive and I don't know the side effects if any and/or when a person can blow their nose (or not) ;-). Seriously though perhaps nasal is more difficult to control the specific dose. "overdosing" isn't a problem, just a waste of $$..
Since absorption is a problem (unless there was some temporary reason for the lowered level which has since been resolved), there's no point in orally supplementing. My doctor told me that. I've since been taking oral B vitamins to try and improve something else and it's not improving, so I'm pretty sure he's right.
If cost of having a nurse/physician do the injections is problematic, a nurse or doctor can show the person how to give themselves the injections in the shoulder or in the butt.
FYI and FWIW J-not an expert
Tom Cular - 05 Apr 2005 01:24 GMT J, A few months ago my GP, in the normal course of things told me that I was anemic, this was surprising as my diet covers it all, (the only thing I don't eat is Purina Puppy Chow),. I mentioned to her, and gave her a copy of an abstract re:androgen deprivation and anemia. She ordered another series of blood tests and following the results of those, put me on B-12. I can't say that I feel like I'm 20, but I sure feel better. Tom
> How many of you get screened for B12 deficiiency? > You'll see why in Table 2 - might explain why some have more difficulty [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > FYI and FWIW > J-not an expert I. P. Freely - 05 Apr 2005 03:02 GMT For all those reasons, I use sublingual B-12. Dirt cheap, absorbs well, bypasses the GI system, no shots or doc visits. My geriatric psychologist cousin highly recommends it as something everyone our age should do, as shortage is almost guaranteed by retirement age, normal ODs can't hurt, and the price of sublingual pills (I use Twin Labs) runs $20 a year.
I.P.
> How many of you get screened for B12 deficiiency? > You'll see why in Table 2 - might explain why some have more difficulty [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > FYI and FWIW > J-not an expert I. P. Freely - 05 Apr 2005 03:04 GMT Oh, yes . . . and irreversible nerve damage imperceptible until it's serious.
I.P.
"J" <banish@invalid.anon> wrote >
> Please also note that it can lead to a form of irreversible senility. KCTom - 05 Apr 2005 03:34 GMT I have a neurology problem with my feet. My neurologist has my B-12 monitored every 6 months. I've been on B-12 since 1979 due to the crohns in the terminal Ileum After a resect of the terminal Ileum in 1994, have been on shots every 2 weeks. That keeps the levels mid-way between the high and low acceptable levels. I work as a volunteer in a cancer clinic, the folks in the chemo room give me my shots on one of the days I'm working. Tom
> Oh, yes . . . and irreversible nerve damage imperceptible until it's > serious. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "J" <banish@invalid.anon> wrote > >> Please also note that it can lead to a form of irreversible senility. J - 05 Apr 2005 08:42 GMT > I have a neurology problem with my feet. My neurologist has my B-12 > monitored every 6 months. I've been on B-12 since [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > folks in the chemo room give me my shots on one of the days I'm working. > Tom I think you should try sublingual and always be at the high end. J
Glassman - 07 Apr 2005 06:56 GMT My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual pill with all 3, that is very cheap and tases great. Now I'm as sharp as a stick of butter!
 Signature *7 years & 50 lbs permanently off Atkins Guy
-- JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
JerryW - 08 Apr 2005 03:23 GMT Glassman,
My cardiologist prescribed a vitamin combination of B6, B12 and Folic Acid for me after taking me off additional C and E. It comes in a single pill and is called Foltx.
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/18/05 PSA <0.1
> My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also > recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual > pill with all 3, that is very cheap and tases great. Now I'm as sharp as a > stick of butter! Glassman - 09 Apr 2005 02:49 GMT > Glassman, > > My cardiologist prescribed a vitamin combination of B6, B12 and Folic Acid > for me after taking me off additional C and E. It comes in a single pill and > is called Foltx. Why off the others, and substitute these?
 Signature JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
JerryW - 09 Apr 2005 17:04 GMT Glassman,
I'm already getting additional C and E in a multivitamin. Cardiologist indicated the B6, B12 and folic acid combo was proving more effective for post heart attack cardiovascular health than the additional vitamin C and E (over the multivitamin amount). I have coronary artery disease; heart attack in 2001. I try to keep the number of daily pills in the single-digit range, if possible :-)
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/18/05 PSA <0.1
>> Glassman, >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> is called Foltx. > Why off the others, and substitute these? I. P. Freely - 09 Apr 2005 19:46 GMT > My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also > recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual > pill with all 3, that is very cheap and tases great. Now I'm as sharp as a > stick of butter! That's great. It's always encouraging to hear from the small percentage of people who make the Atkins diet work long term. I trust you're monitoring all the cardiovascular markers, including CRP, homocysteine, complete lipids profile, etc. I'd think that with that much success, you could make a broader, non-"diet" regimen, such as the healthier Mediterranean way of eating, work for you, but I must assume you've tried that without success.
I.P.
Glassman - 09 Apr 2005 22:25 GMT > > My Atkins low carb life style has me lacking in grains so my GP also > > recommended a combo of B12, B6, & Folic Acid. I found a little sublingual [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I.P. Most people that I know of have had terrific long term success with a low carb way of eating, so I don't know what your experience with it is that supports your comment? My bloodwork, echo cardiogram, and even colonoscopy are all perfect after 7 years of eating this way. I eat lots of meat and fat and my cholesterol is way down. Lots of energy, and I don't have to worry about calories or portion size. There's a big misconception of exactly what low carbers do and don't eat. It's not like it's bacon and eggs 7 days a week. I eat salads, veggies, nuts, and berries along with fat & protein. I don't eat rice. potato, pasta, or bread. No sugar or refined carbs ever. I know people that have lost over 100 lbs and have been doing it for 30 years.
 Signature JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
I. P. Freely - 10 Apr 2005 06:16 GMT Yours sounds more like a modified version of Atkins, given the GOOD carbs you ingest. Those veggies and berries sure help. I'm just still surprised that whole grains aren't accepted as healthy by the Atkins gurus, given their emphasis by the world's medical community. It's Atkins' sat fats, especially the animal fats, and its lack of whole grains, that the medical and health communities blast up one side and down the other. Foregoing simple sugars and refined foods, especially refined carbs, is a big plus in any diet (except when trying to recover energy from prolonged, hard physical work or play). I haven't eaten white bread (90% of the stuff in supermarkets) or ordinary pasta in decades, but I'll go through a loaf of walnut cranberry raisin whole wheat bread smothered in seasoned olive oil in a day or two with the medical community's blessing, as long as I burn up its calories, and I my heaps of whole wheat pasta are very healthy.
I've had no personal experience with Atkins. What I HAVE done is spent hundreds of hours researching it intensely in the medical and health literature. Most people can't stick to it for long (I'm not sure why; a diet of meat and cheese and ice cream and all the rest of the Atkins stuff sounds great -- I plan to spend my last few months on that plus the dessert diet, the pizza diet, the pastry diet, and the buffet diet in general.), and over a year most Atkins dieters lose less weight than control groups on the food pyramid/Mediterranean diet recommended by the medical and health worlds. Just as I want my last check to bounce (and be made out to my undertaker), I also see no reason to die slim and with low cholesterol; that's a waste of good junk food IMO. I WOULD have to sweat calories or portion size on a high-fat diet, as I've been kicked out of buffets twice for eating too much.
I wouldn't expect a colonoscopy to be influenced by Atkins. Red meat is only strongly SUSPECTED of promoting colon cancer, and probably takes decades to bring it on, if it does. I cut my sat fat intake by probably 95% two decades ago, and my colonoscopy was clear just three years ago; my large, very life-threatening, colon cancer grew in just three years from being invisible by colonoscopy to becoming now my most probable cause of death , even with surgery. Fortunately for all the high-fat/protein dieters, my case is just anecdotal, just a fourth decimal place contributor to the statistics.
I.P.
> I don't know what your experience with it is that > supports your comment? My bloodwork, echo cardiogram, and even colonoscopy [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > know people that have lost over 100 lbs and have been doing it for 30 > years. Glassman - 10 Apr 2005 17:53 GMT > Yours sounds more like a modified version of Atkins, given the GOOD carbs > you ingest. Those veggies and berries sure help. I'm just still surprised > that whole grains aren't accepted as healthy by the Atkins gurus, given > their emphasis by the world's medical community. This is the Atkins plan. Nowhere does it say no carbs. Again, the public's misconception is fostered by the food lobbys and activists that are hurt in the pocketbook. . The first 2 weeks is a more strict plan to get jump started. White bread or wheat bread or pasta, it all turns to sugar as soon as you chew it. It's allowed in moderation, but I'd rather get my carbs from veggies and nuts. I'm a firm believer that sugars are the real killer in our diet. Diabetes, and heart desease and cancer are all feed by sugar. All those fat studies are basically questionable because carbs were never taken into account. High fat eaters, are high carb eaters as well. I agree that I have no interest in eating tree bark to die skinny. I eat tons of great food on this plan, and am never hungry. Sorry to hear of your colon probs. I'm going back for another colonoscopy in 3 years. Now hearing of your untimely and quick progression, I'll be more worried.
 Signature JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
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