Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2005
info of S.E. on the treatments of prostate cancer - what i found out
|
|
Thread rating:  |
c palmer - 17 Mar 2005 10:17 GMT had my appointment with the doctor. i was able to talk with him for almost an hour and there are some very interesting facts that were brought out.
here's some of them.
on surgery treatment options. if you read dr. walsh's book and look at the illustrations, it appears that the prostate itself is disconnected and then removed. but it's not removed as a unit, but rather in chunks or sections. (i always wondered how they could pull a whole prostate out out of one of those little incisions of an LRP) this is why prostate cells could be left behind as they are removing the gland and later cause the psa to rise.
on radiation treatment
seeds - each seed has its own source of radiation and will generate a different spread pattern as a group. so there is a variance each time and doesn't apply the same as to a central beam point such as 3-D. the more seeds that are deposited in one area will produce a more concentrated radiation of the prostate at that location.
each seeding operation has two variables. 1. how many seeds are used 2. placement of those seeds used.
i couldn't get much detail information on seeding that i wanted, other than if two men got seeding at the same time with the same stage, gleason, and pca development, there would be different outcomes. here's the reason. it depends of where the pca develops inside the prostate. an example of this could be as follows........one may have more pca developing near the erectile nerves, so as a result, more seeds are used resulting in more radiation being applied in the pca which results to more radiation exposure to the erectile nerves which could lead to ED problems of the one person while the other one might have minimum effects because his pca was developed further away from the erectile nerves.
on the other types of radiation.
i knew part of this on radiation in general. i will explain my part first and then add what takes place in radiating the prostate.
in the military service - radiation danger, one of the demonstrations we would show to the newbies about being around radars and the exposure to their radiation, was to tie a string on a stick and the other end to a hot dog. we would put the hot dog in front of the radar dish for a few minutes. after removing the hot dog, we would point out that the outside of the hot dog has not changed it's appearance. it still looks raw as when we placed it in front of the radiation unit. but when we cut the hot dog into two places lengthwise. it was black and charred on the inside in the middle. the purpose of this demonstration was to show how radiation can hurt you while you still like ok on the outside.
now, applying radiation to the prostate gland as a treatment does much like this except it is not as powerful. the outside of the prostate gland will still have the feel and texture of the prostate gland, while the inside of the prostate will have a definite demarcating line. inside this line the tissue will appear to be thicker and feel like rubber or leather and nothing like the prostate tissue as it was before.
this is due to the way the body responds to radiation of ANY kind and how the body changes cell structure as a result of exposure to radiation. if a person were to get even more radiation, the cell structure would respond and change even more.
because the damage is done to the inside might explain why men who get radiated have irritation for the urethra and urinating problems as they are getting the radiation sessions.
also, some of the colon wall gets radiated too and turns into a similar rubbery or leather like tissue. this causes that area to loss it's function of what's the colon is designed to do - remove the water from the feces - hence - diarrhea. also, since the tissue doesn't stretch like it did, can produce pain as the food passes through it in that area.
in fact, there has been reports of some patients who were in so much pain as a result of the radiation damage to the colon area, they wanted the colon section removed.
as to the numbers on 50% recurrence of prostate cancer in 3 years, 80% recurrence in 5 years and 99% recurrence in 10 years. this is all in reference to the cases where recurrence of prostate cancer takes place and not of the whole group of prostate cancer patients. the purpose of the numbers was to do with showing that if a person was to have recurrence of prostate cancer, then this is the odds of when it could develop after treatment.
hope this help explain why each treatment is different unto itself.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Joe \(shaw\) - 17 Mar 2005 15:01 GMT With respect -
Your doctor is missinformed about how the prostate is removed in LRP. The entire organ is placed intact in an endoscopic bag. The bag is sealed and then removed intact through one of the incisions - which is first enlarged to about one and a quarter inches.
There were a couple of videos of the procedure on the net but both are gone now. They very clearly show this phase of the operation.
His description is accurate for laparoscopic nephrectomy (kidney removal) which is placed in a bag and cut up prior to removal.
I'm sure you are just repeating what he told you but he is dead wrong about this and I wouldn't want anyone to let this statement influence their decision about their surgical options.
JP
> had my appointment with the doctor. i was able to talk with him for > almost an hour and there are some very interesting facts that were [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc c palmer - 17 Mar 2005 19:39 GMT hi joe - i do appreciate the input because i'm not trying to put out bad information. i do remember a poster making the statement about the LRP surgeon saying, "bag it" at one time.
this was not my regular surgeon, as i've stated and was the first time i saw this person at the urology clinic.
i wouldn't want anyone to make a decision based of what has been said - i was merely trying to provide some answers that were provided to me to compare as to the different methods of treatment.
thanks again.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
jhhtexas@ieee.org - 18 Mar 2005 18:30 GMT Maybe an LRP would have been better for me. My UCLA surgeon mentioned LRP was available at City-of-Hope in LA, but he talked me into an RRP (which was his specialty). He said he could do a better job on nerve-sparing as he could see the nerves better. My PSA is rising slightly (from .03 to .07 in 6 months). If I had had an LRP with an endoscopic bag to remove the prostate, maybe that rise wouldn't be happening now. Who's to know.
ron - 18 Mar 2005 18:47 GMT That's right, who's to know. You made the best decison you could at the time. There is no data to suggest that LRP has a better outcome, in terms of recurrence, than standard RRP. In fact in a very recent journal article Guillonneau, one of the first to define and practice the LRP, said, "longer followup and more mature data are needed definitively to establish laparoscopic radical prostatectomy as an alternative to the retropubic approach." Hang in there...Best wishes and good health, Ron
Leonard Evens - 17 Mar 2005 17:09 GMT > had my appointment with the doctor. i was able to talk with him for > almost an hour and there are some very interesting facts that were [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > effects because his pca was developed further away from the erectile > nerves. I don't really understand this. I thought there was no way outside of removing the prostate and examining it to determine where in the prostate the cancer is located. Walsh, in his book, says that usually they find cancer at an average of 6 or 7 sites within the prostate when they examine it after surgery. I thought seed therapists, indeed any kind of radiation therapists, have to focus radiation on the entire prostate to be sure of getting all the cancer. I've seen the prostate after seed therapy described as a shriveled up residual surrounding the urethra.
> on the other types of radiation. > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc c palmer - 17 Mar 2005 19:53 GMT hi leonard - it is my understanding that the surgeon uses the TRUS unit to locate the suspected lumps or areas in the prostate during a biopsy. i have the pictures that my surgeon gave me at the time of the biopsy. they are in black and white and to me, it looks much like a ultra-sound photo, but when he was explaining it to me - what he saw - it was truly interesting. he would say - on this photo, this is taken from the right side and you can see........., and on this photo, you can clearly see the............, and i'm just looking at a bunch of ultra sound echoes.
what he said has supported my findings of when they do the seeding operation because in the articles, they point out this is why they use so many seeds are being used so that the surgeon can "see" where to place the seeds.
nowhere have i ever seen any article that a brachytherapy is based on of a certain size prostate - for example - if a man was dx'ed with a prostate of 50 cc, and had pca of T1c, with a gleason of 6, then X amount of seeds would be used in this process of the brachytherapy operation. you always hear about that they used X amount of seeds to insure a good kill.
maybe someone who has more knowledge can shed some light as to how detailed it gets when they do place the seeds inside the prostate. perhaps, this could be a question one of the brachytherapy patients can ask their doctor and post the results.
i really want to make sure that we put out the most accurate information as possible.
thanks,
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
gourd_dancer - 18 Mar 2005 04:00 GMT Curtis, As a recipient of Brachytherapy (118 Palladium seeds) perhaps this will help:
A volume study to determine the shape and size of the prostate will usually be performed a few days to a few weeks before the implant. Using a transrectal ultrasound unit, the prostate is localized and a computer will take several pictures measuring the size and shape of the gland. These pictures allow the radiation physicist to determine the number of needles and seeds needed to treat the prostate using advanced computerized dosimetry, and exactly where they should be placed.
Each patient is treated had a different plan developed by three primary individuals: Radiation Oncologist, Radiation Physicist, and Radiation Dosimetrist. Each have a part to insure full coverage depending on the volume and shape of the prostate.
The RO that implanted mine has implanted over 2000 times and studied under Dr. malcolm Bagshaw at Stanford.
Mike
> hi leonard - it is my understanding that the surgeon uses the TRUS unit > to locate the suspected lumps or areas in the prostate during a biopsy. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc Tom Cular - 18 Mar 2005 13:41 GMT To expand a little on Mikes explanation, when the volume study is done (Trus and/or CT scan) a 3-D image of the gland is created. From this image the physicist is able to plan a seed pattern that will be used in conjunction with a template to assure correct placement on the X, Y and Z axis, being guided during placement by real time imaging.
Below is a link that shows a template and applicator from one manufacturer. http://www.micknuclear.com/page_prostate_ldr/prostate_implant.asp
Tom
> Curtis, As a recipient of Brachytherapy (118 Palladium seeds) perhaps this > will help: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." > > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc Leonard Evens - 18 Mar 2005 15:26 GMT > Curtis, As a recipient of Brachytherapy (118 Palladium seeds) perhaps this > will help: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > The RO that implanted mine has implanted over 2000 times and studied under > Dr. malcolm Bagshaw at Stanford. That is entirely consistent with my understanding. They can't actually see where in the prostate the cancer is located.
> Mike > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." >>http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc Ken - 18 Mar 2005 04:19 GMT Here's a news item about a different approach to radiation:
New Hope When Prostate Cancer Comes Back By Dr. Jay Adlersberg
(New York- WABC, March 17, 2005) - Each year, more than 230,000 men will be told they have prostate cancer. Many will be successfully treated only to have their cancer return a few years later. Now there is new hope when cancer comes back.
Fonis Payne is fighting his third round of cancer. Ten years ago, he beat colon cancer. He thought he beat prostate cancer four years ago too, but last March it returned. His search for the best treatment led him to Arve Gillette, M.D., who has a new option when standard external beam radiation fails.
Dr. Gillette, a radiation oncologist at Community Health Network in Indianapolis, is studying biothermy. First, he uses high dose radiation - 10,000-times more powerful than standard radiation seeds.
Dr. Arve Gillette: "You can perfectly paint the dose so that every bit of prostate that needs treating gets treated."
A long thin cable carries the same powerful seed down each of the tubes into the prostate. It radiates multiple spots, but it's not left in the patient.
Dr. Gillette: "I can perfectly adjust the dose of radioactivity to conform to the shape of the prostate and to boost areas of particular extra disease."
Next, wires carry heat through the same tubes. That magnifies the radiation two to three times.
Dr. Gillette: "Thus far, it's very promising."
Fonis was his first patient.
Fonis Payne, Cancer Patient: "I'm a star."
Margaret Payne, Wife: "He has his little shirt that says GP1, and it has a star on each side: Guinea pig one."
Both are grateful for the opportunity.
Fonis Payne, Cancer Patient: "This is something new, and I think it's the beginning of the wave of the future."
And both he and Margaret hope the future for them will be cancer-free.
The procedure is done twice, three weeks apart, and is only for those patients whose cancer has recurred after radiation. The study is currently taking place in Indianapolis, Oakland, Calif., Long Beach, Calif., and Salt Lake City.
keith340@webtv.net - 18 Mar 2005 15:48 GMT KEN...do you know the locations in Oakland and Long Beach?
Keith Lundy/So. California 40 Proton Beam Radiation Treatments Loma Linda Univ.Med Ctr..3/03-5/03
|
|
|