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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2005

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info of S.E. on the treatments of prostate cancer - what i found    out

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c palmer - 17 Mar 2005 10:17 GMT
had my appointment with the doctor.  i was able to talk with him for
almost an hour and there are some very interesting facts that were
brought out.

here's some of them.

on surgery treatment options.  if you read dr. walsh's book and look at
the illustrations, it appears that the prostate itself is disconnected
and then removed.  but it's not removed as a unit, but rather in chunks
or sections.  (i always wondered how they could pull a whole prostate
out out of one of those little incisions of an LRP)  this is why
prostate cells could be left behind as they are removing the gland and
later cause the psa to rise.  

on radiation treatment

seeds - each seed has its own source of  radiation and will generate a
different spread pattern as a group.  so there is a variance each time
and doesn't apply the same as to a central beam point such as 3-D.  the
more seeds that are deposited in one area will produce a more
concentrated radiation of the prostate at that location.

each seeding operation has two variables.
1. how many seeds are used
2. placement of those seeds used.

i couldn't get much detail information on seeding that i wanted, other
than if two men got seeding at the same time with the same stage,
gleason, and pca development, there would be different outcomes.  here's
the reason.  it depends of where the pca develops inside the prostate.
an example of this could be as follows........one may have more pca
developing near the erectile nerves, so as a result, more seeds are used
resulting in more radiation being applied in the pca which results to
more radiation exposure to the erectile nerves which could lead to ED
problems of the one person while the other one might have minimum
effects because his pca was developed further away from the erectile
nerves.  

on the other types of radiation.

i knew part of this on radiation in general.  i will explain my part
first and then add what takes place in radiating the prostate.

in the military service -  radiation danger, one of the demonstrations
we would show to the newbies about being around radars and the exposure
to their radiation, was to tie a string on a stick and the other end to
a hot dog.  we would put the hot dog in front of the radar dish for a
few minutes.  after removing the hot dog, we would point out that the
outside of the hot dog has not changed it's appearance.  it still looks
raw as when we placed it in front of the radiation unit.  but when we
cut the hot dog into two places lengthwise.  it was black and charred on
the inside in the middle.  the purpose of this demonstration was to show
how radiation can hurt you while you still like ok on the outside.

now, applying radiation to the prostate gland as a treatment does much
like this except it is not as powerful.  the outside of the prostate
gland will still have the feel and texture of the prostate gland, while
the inside of the prostate will have a definite demarcating line.
inside this line the tissue will appear to be thicker and feel like
rubber or leather and nothing like the prostate tissue as it was before.  

this is due to the way the body responds to radiation of ANY kind and
how the body changes cell structure as a result of exposure to
radiation.  if a person were to get even more radiation, the cell
structure would respond and change even more.

because the damage is done to the inside might explain why men who get
radiated have irritation for the urethra and urinating problems as they
are getting the radiation sessions.  

also, some of the colon wall gets radiated too and turns into a similar
rubbery or leather like tissue.  this causes that area to loss it's
function of what's the colon is designed to do - remove the water from
the feces - hence - diarrhea.  also, since the tissue doesn't stretch
like it did, can produce pain as the food passes through it in that
area.  

in fact, there has been reports of some patients who were in so much
pain as a result of the radiation damage to the colon area, they wanted
the colon section removed.

as to the numbers on 50% recurrence of prostate cancer in 3 years,  80%
recurrence in 5 years and 99% recurrence in 10 years.  this is all in
reference to the cases where recurrence of prostate cancer takes place
and not of the whole group of prostate cancer patients.  the purpose of
the numbers was to do with showing that if a person was to have
recurrence of prostate cancer, then this is the odds of when it could
develop after treatment.

hope this help explain why each treatment is different unto itself.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Joe \(shaw\) - 17 Mar 2005 15:01 GMT
With respect -

Your doctor is missinformed about how the prostate is removed in LRP.  The
entire organ is placed intact in an endoscopic bag.  The bag is sealed and
then removed intact through one of the incisions - which is first enlarged
to about one and a quarter inches.

There were a couple of videos of the procedure on the net but both are gone
now.  They very clearly show this phase of the operation.

His description is accurate for laparoscopic nephrectomy (kidney removal)
which is placed in a bag and cut up prior to removal.

I'm sure you are just repeating what he told you but he is dead wrong about
this and I wouldn't want anyone to let this statement influence their
decision about their surgical options.

JP
> had my appointment with the doctor.  i was able to talk with him for
> almost an hour and there are some very interesting facts that were
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
c palmer - 17 Mar 2005 19:39 GMT
hi joe - i do appreciate the input because i'm not trying to put out bad
information.  i do remember a poster making the statement about the LRP
surgeon saying, "bag it" at one time.

this was not my regular surgeon, as i've stated and was the first time i
saw this person at the urology clinic.

i wouldn't want anyone to make a decision based of what has been said -
i was merely trying to provide some answers that were provided to me to
compare as to the different methods of treatment.  

thanks again.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
jhhtexas@ieee.org - 18 Mar 2005 18:30 GMT
Maybe an LRP would have been better for me. My UCLA surgeon mentioned
LRP was available at City-of-Hope in LA, but he talked me into an RRP
(which was his specialty). He said he could do a better job on
nerve-sparing as he could see the nerves better. My PSA is rising
slightly (from .03 to .07 in 6 months). If I had had an LRP with an
endoscopic bag to remove the prostate, maybe that rise wouldn't be
happening now. Who's to know.
ron - 18 Mar 2005 18:47 GMT
That's right, who's to know.  You made the best decison you could at
the time.  There is no data to suggest that LRP has a better outcome,
in terms of recurrence, than standard RRP.  In fact in a very recent
journal article Guillonneau, one of the first to define and practice
the LRP, said, "longer followup and more mature data are needed
definitively to establish laparoscopic radical prostatectomy as an
alternative to the retropubic approach."  Hang in there...Best wishes
and good health, Ron
Leonard Evens - 17 Mar 2005 17:09 GMT
> had my appointment with the doctor.  i was able to talk with him for
> almost an hour and there are some very interesting facts that were
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> effects because his pca was developed further away from the erectile
> nerves.  

I don't really understand this.  I thought there was no way outside of
removing the prostate and examining it to determine where in the
prostate the cancer is located.   Walsh, in his book, says that usually
they find cancer at an average of 6 or 7 sites within the prostate when
they examine it after surgery.   I thought seed therapists, indeed any
kind of radiation therapists, have to focus radiation on the entire
prostate to be sure of getting all the cancer.  I've seen the prostate
after seed therapy described as a shriveled up residual surrounding the
urethra.

> on the other types of radiation.
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
c palmer - 17 Mar 2005 19:53 GMT
hi leonard - it is my understanding that the surgeon uses the TRUS unit
to locate the suspected lumps or areas in the prostate during a biopsy.
i have the pictures that my surgeon gave me at the time of the biopsy.
they are in black and white and to me, it looks much like a ultra-sound
photo, but when he was explaining it to me - what he saw - it was truly
interesting.  he would say -  on this photo, this is taken from the
right side and you can see.........,  and on this photo, you can clearly
see the............,  and i'm just looking at a bunch of ultra sound
echoes.

what he said has supported my findings of when they do the seeding
operation because in the articles, they point out this is why they use
so many seeds are being used so that the surgeon can "see" where to
place the seeds.  

nowhere have i ever seen any article that a brachytherapy is based on of
a certain size prostate - for example - if a man was dx'ed with a
prostate of 50 cc, and had pca of T1c, with a gleason of 6, then X
amount of seeds would be used in this process of the brachytherapy
operation.  you always hear about that they used X amount of seeds to
insure a good kill.

maybe someone who has more knowledge can shed some light as to how
detailed it gets when they do place the seeds inside the prostate.
perhaps, this could be a question one of the brachytherapy patients can
ask their doctor and post the results.  

i really want to make sure that we put out the most accurate information
as possible.

thanks,

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
gourd_dancer - 18 Mar 2005 04:00 GMT
Curtis, As a recipient of Brachytherapy (118 Palladium seeds) perhaps this
will help:

A volume study to determine the shape and size of the prostate will usually
be performed a few days to a few weeks before the implant. Using a
transrectal ultrasound unit, the prostate is localized and a computer will
take several pictures measuring the size and shape of the gland. These
pictures allow the radiation physicist to determine the number of needles
and seeds needed to treat the prostate using advanced computerized
dosimetry, and exactly where they should be placed.

Each patient is treated had a different plan developed by three primary
individuals: Radiation Oncologist, Radiation Physicist, and Radiation
Dosimetrist. Each have a part to insure full coverage depending on the
volume and shape of the prostate.

The RO that implanted mine has implanted over 2000 times and studied under
Dr. malcolm Bagshaw at Stanford.

Mike

> hi leonard - it is my understanding that the surgeon uses the TRUS unit
> to locate the suspected lumps or areas in the prostate during a biopsy.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Tom Cular - 18 Mar 2005 13:41 GMT
To expand a little on Mikes explanation, when the volume study is done (Trus
and/or CT scan) a 3-D image of the gland is created. From this image the
physicist is able to plan a seed pattern that will be used in conjunction
with a template to assure correct placement on the X, Y and Z axis, being
guided during placement by real time imaging.

Below is a link that shows a template and applicator from one manufacturer.
http://www.micknuclear.com/page_prostate_ldr/prostate_implant.asp

Tom

> Curtis, As a recipient of Brachytherapy (118 Palladium seeds) perhaps this
> will help:
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> > invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> > http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Leonard Evens - 18 Mar 2005 15:26 GMT
> Curtis, As a recipient of Brachytherapy (118 Palladium seeds) perhaps this
> will help:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The RO that implanted mine has implanted over 2000 times and studied under
> Dr. malcolm Bagshaw at Stanford.

That is entirely consistent with my understanding.  They can't actually
see where in the prostate the cancer is located.

> Mike
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
>>http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Ken - 18 Mar 2005 04:19 GMT
Here's a news item about a different approach to radiation:

New Hope When Prostate Cancer Comes Back
By Dr. Jay Adlersberg

(New York- WABC, March 17, 2005) - Each year, more than 230,000 men
will be told they have prostate cancer. Many will be successfully
treated only to have their cancer return a few years later. Now there
is new hope when cancer comes back.

Fonis Payne is fighting his third round of cancer. Ten years ago, he
beat colon cancer. He thought he beat prostate cancer four years ago
too, but last March it returned. His search for the best treatment led
him to Arve Gillette, M.D., who has a new option when standard external
beam radiation fails.

Dr. Gillette, a radiation oncologist at Community Health Network in
Indianapolis, is studying biothermy. First, he uses high dose radiation
- 10,000-times more powerful than standard radiation seeds.

Dr. Arve Gillette: "You can perfectly paint the dose so that every bit
of prostate that needs treating gets treated."

A long thin cable carries the same powerful seed down each of the tubes
into the prostate. It radiates multiple spots, but it's not left in the
patient.

Dr. Gillette: "I can perfectly adjust the dose of radioactivity to
conform to the shape of the prostate and to boost areas of particular
extra disease."

Next, wires carry heat through the same tubes. That magnifies the
radiation two to three times.

Dr. Gillette: "Thus far, it's very promising."

Fonis was his first patient.

Fonis Payne, Cancer Patient: "I'm a star."

Margaret Payne, Wife: "He has his little shirt that says GP1, and it
has a star on each side: Guinea pig one."

Both are grateful for the opportunity.

Fonis Payne, Cancer Patient: "This is something new, and I think it's
the beginning of the wave of the future."

And both he and Margaret hope the future for them will be cancer-free.

The procedure is done twice, three weeks apart, and is only for those
patients whose cancer has recurred after radiation. The study is
currently taking place in Indianapolis, Oakland, Calif., Long Beach,
Calif., and Salt Lake City.
keith340@webtv.net - 18 Mar 2005 15:48 GMT
KEN...do you know the locations in Oakland and Long Beach?

Keith Lundy/So. California
40 Proton Beam Radiation Treatments
Loma Linda  Univ.Med Ctr..3/03-5/03
 
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