Why is chemotherapy not used as soon as PC is diagnosed, in parallel with HT? Seems to me you want to fight aggressively from the start, rather than wait for the nasty mutations to develop.
gourd_dancer - 10 Mar 2005 14:00 GMT
Good question. It is one that I asked last year. My answer is as follows:
The problem with certain combinations of chemotherapy lies not in that it
kills cancer cells (they have known that for twenty years) it does;
unfortunately, it kills people also. Most of the research has been to
determine what doses and what combinations work the best. FDA is primarily
concerned about what is safe and not harmful (kills) people. Most of what is
approved by the FDA only extends life,depending on Gleason grade and the
extent of involvement, a very short time.
I am working with a research specialist who is having 30% success rate with
a re-growth of bone to damage areas (bone mets). Even with that, the best he
can do is add ten years. It simply is a waiting game.
With that said, a co-worker was diagnosed two months before me with a
Gleason 9 (5+4), His immediate treatment was Hormones, RP, following by
Chemo with Radiation at the same time. He was treated in a major medical
reasearch environment.
I on the other hand with a Gleason (4+3) was treated initally with seeds and
IMRT. PSA never went down and within a year showed two not spots on my spine
and started hormones with chemo in a Phase II trial at a major medical
research facility next door to my co-worker.
Who is better off? I simply do not know and I suspect the medical community
does not either.
> Why is chemotherapy not used as soon as PC is diagnosed, in parallel with HT? Seems to me you want to fight aggressively from the start, rather than
wait for the nasty mutations to develop.
jhhtexas@ieee.org - 10 Mar 2005 18:18 GMT
>From all I have read, chemotherapy is not often used because it has not
been proven effective against either localized or advanced PCa.
Steve Kramer - 10 Mar 2005 19:16 GMT
Depending on the PSA, Gleason and Stage, it may not be necessary to
introduce the toxicity of chemo into the regimen.
RRP can cure. RT, it is said, can cure. HT, though it can cure, does so
rarely that it is not considered as such. Chemo does not cure.
PCa works so slowly, that different treatments can be tried and they can be
tried years apart.
Next, RRP carries with it temporary incontinence and impotence. So does RT
and, in the future, it can produce longer lasting SEs including permanent
incontinence and impotence. HT causes greater impotence and a myriad of
other SEs. Chemo is extremely toxic and generally is said to kill the
cancer and barely comes up short of killing the host.
That is now and certainly was then. In the future, who knows?

Signature
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins
PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum
> Why is chemotherapy not used as soon as PC is diagnosed, in parallel with HT? Seems to me you want to fight aggressively from the start, rather than
wait for the nasty mutations to develop.
Harold - 10 Mar 2005 22:27 GMT
> Why is chemotherapy not used as soon as PC is diagnosed, in parallel with HT? Seems to me you want to fight aggressively from the start,
rather than wait for the nasty mutations to develop.
I think it all depends on the nature of your PCa such as:
PSA at time of diagnosis
Gleason score - sum & total.
Staging.
Determination, to the extent possible, regarding extracapsular
extension.
DNA Ploidy analysis
Number of biopsy specimens positive for cancer
% of each core with cancer
Chemotherapy does add chemicals to your body that are not particularly
pleasant with noticeable side effects and it is expensive. Also, while
there is some optimism and some results that indicate a positive
result, it is a bit early to tell the long term benefit - such as does
chemotherapy result in longevity of life for people with PCa. So unless
very good medical advice indicates it is warranted early in the PCa
treatment process it would probably be best not to include chemotherapy
as a "routine" treatment.
That all said I did have chemotherapy 7 months after after beginning
ADT3 (aka HT).
My history:
PSA 3.8
Gleason 4+4 = 8
Stage T3a
Biopsy indicated perineural invasion was present.
DNA Ploidy was diploid
5 of 9 biopsy cores positive for PCa
% cancer in the 5 specimens - 50, 70, 80, 90, 100%
Started on ADT3 (Casodex, Proscar, Lupron)
PSA at that point was 3.8
7 months later started chemotherapy (50mg.Taxotere intravenously once a
week for 12 weeks.
PSA at that point was 0.067.
3 months later concluded chemotherapy
PSA at that point was 0.025
When medical oncologist suggested chemotherapy he said it was
"experimental" and he could not predict what full effect it may have on
my PCa. He said I had a high grade aggressive type of PCa and there
existed the possibility of micro metatastic disease although that could
not be determined a given fact. Maybe yes or maybe know but better to
assume yes and treat accordingly. He said aggressive PCa needed
aggessive treatment and chemotherapy was "aggressive". I was made
aware of possible side effects. I was made aware the effectiveness of
chemotherapy on PCa was unclear. The idea was to treat me aggressively
rather than wait around a few years to determine the results of
chemotherapy over the long run.
After being off chemotherapy for 3 months (to recover) I then started
43 weeks of Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy (IMRT) augmented by
B-mode aquistioning and targeting (BAT). This was 4680 rads to the
pelvic lymph nodes and prostate followed by 3060 rads to the prostate
alone.
PSA at the start of IMRT / Bat was 0.025.
PSA at end of IMRT / BAT was 0.009
ADT3 was continued throughout the time I was doing chemotherapy and
IMRT / BAT.
ADT3 was discontinued 21 months ago - 4 months after completing IMRT /
BAT
Apr 2003...PSA...0.004
Jul 2003...PSA...0.003
Nov 2003...PSA...0.030
Feb 2004...PSA...0.050
May 2004...PSA...0.060
Aug 2004...PSA...0.060
Nov 2004...PSA...0.070
Feb 2005...not yet done
My medical oncologists "think" increase in PSA is due to the fact that
I still have a prostate and that testosterone has returned to near same
level as when ADT3 was intiated.
Medical oncologists think I am doing "fine" as does radiation
oncologist. However, as we all know, this is somewhat of a guess and
time will tell what is really going on. However - as they also say -
think positive, reduce stress.
In any event, Mike, I included all of the above just to give you a case
history of someone who did start chemotherapy not too long after ADT3
was initiated along with some reasons related to my case on why I
elected to do so.
Everyone's PCa is unique to themselves and what treatment one person
decides on may not be at all the same as someone else.
Regards,
Harold
Mike - 11 Mar 2005 10:39 GMT
Harold
Thanks for all the details; a very interesting case!
I haven't all the facts you have, in the UK we don't seem to get such a full report.
All I know is PSA 124 (sic), Gleason 8, bones clear, but extra-capsular spread, and T3c, maybe T4.
Whenever I mention chemotherapy I am stonewalled. I did find this link, though:
<a href="http://www.asco.org/ac/1,1003,_12-002636-00_18-002-00_19-00200242,00.asp"/>
Seems to me that a doubling of survival period is not to be sneezed at.
Mike
>>Why is chemotherapy not used as soon as PC is diagnosed, in parallel
>
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
>
> Harold
Harold - 11 Mar 2005 14:02 GMT
Mike:
You may also want to read the following link although the study
referenced was for men with known advanced PCa that were no longer
responding to HT. What would be desireable would be a study that shows
what happens to survival rate if chemotherapy was started early on,
before PCa has taken a greater toll. I don't know what that would
show. My medical oncologist thought that given my own PCa situation
and given some earlier studies that showed chemotherapy had some
benefit on more advanced PCa then it may be helpful to me to start on
it earlier and basically see what happens. We don't know but given my
situation I was willing to do it AND my insurance company was willing
to pay for the treatment so I went forward with chemotherapy.
There may be some folks who would argue that lacking any clear evidence
that use of chemotherapy extends longevity it is just not worth the
side effects risk but my personal opinion was to throw everything
available at the disease in an effort to fend it off.
Link to a bit more information...
http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/results/prostate-and-docetaxel0604
Harold
Bill - 12 Mar 2005 14:53 GMT
As I understand it traditional chemo works w/ other cancers because it
targets the fast-growing cells that characterize those forms of cancer.
That is also why patients lose their hair - because it is fast growing.
However, PCa is NOT fast-growing so proven agents haven't been shown
to be very effective, certainly not curative.
Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA .45
Memphis
Harold - 12 Mar 2005 17:05 GMT
> As I understand it traditional chemo works w/ other cancers because it
> targets the fast-growing cells that characterize those forms of cancer.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> PSA .45
> Memphis
Response from Harold...
Whilst it can generally be said that PCa is not fast growing there are
occasions where it can be. I had 7 annual PSA results below 1.0 (with
nornmal DRE's) and then 22 months later it was 3.9 and a DRE indicated
what was described to me as "a big, ugly tumor. Biopsy indicated 5 of
9 specimens positive for PCa. Gleason 4+4=8. Staging was T3A. To me,
anyway, that was fast growing PCa.
I agree with Bill that as far is now known chemotherapy is not curative
but there are some studies showing some modest positive effects -
albeit not to a "very effective" level.
These studies have been based on men who no longer respond to ADT and /
or have developed metastatic diesease so the trials have been on men
with fairly advanced disease.
I think there remains a unresolved question which is...if chemotherapy
has shown some level of effectiveness when used against advanced PCa
disease could it be more effective if used in some earlier stage of
treatment before ADT immunity or metastatic disease occurs?
I don't know. But since my PCa was described as high grade aggressive
I opted for chemotherapy before there was any evidence of loss of ADT
effectiveness or evidence of metastatic disease.
I cannot say if this will in anyway enhanced my longevity. I had ADT3,
chemotherapy and IMRT. I can't say how effective any one treatment
will prove to be or if these taken together will benefit me is some
way. My attitude was to do some even if I don't know how effective
each or all will prove to be.
See links below for more about Taxotere on PCa.
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/NEW01068.html
http://patient.cancerconsultants.com/news.aspx?id=33354
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=5383
http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/developments/newly-approved-treatments/page26
Harold