Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2005
Is my PSA Ok?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Dick Smith - 10 Mar 2005 21:13 GMT I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8
But I found this response from Dr Catalona's regarding PSA.
"Here is what I recommend for prostate cancer screening: annual PSA anddigital rectal examination beginning at age 40, or earlier in men with a family history of early age-at-onset prostate cancer (PSA levels should be 0.6 to 0.7 ng/ml in men in their 40s and 50s without prostate disease);"
He says .6 to .7
My dad died from PC a couple years ago at the age of 74. He was Dx when he was 64. So I'm trying to stay on top of things.
Anything I should worry about?
Dave LaCourse - 10 Mar 2005 21:27 GMT >I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Anything I should worry about? I don't think you have anything to *immediately* worry about, but keep an eye out for future trouble. Make sure you have a dre (digital rectal exam) yearly and that you doc takes notes on how large/shape of organ. If you move or change docs, make sure your new doc has the notes taken by your first doc. My cancer was found by a dre from a doc who had been poking me for about 20 years. My psa was 3.4 (at age 59 considered normal) and he felt a little "pimple-like" shape. He advised me to see a urologist and have a biopsy taken. I did and the rest is history.
So, keep tabs on your prostate gland. Have a regular dre and your psa taken. If there are extreme changes, ask your doc for advice.
Good luck. Hope I don't see you around here for 20 or 30 years. d;o)
Dave
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 03:51 GMT Yes, When I got back I need to get the DRE. I didn't want to get that the same day as the PSA as I know it can skew the results.
James A Honeychuck - 10 Mar 2005 21:36 GMT No. As you suggested in another post, the doctor will be watching for PSA velocity regardless of the baseline number.
Frankly I have never heard that PSA should be only 0.6 to 0.7 ng/ml. I thought doctors did not get concerned until it reached about 4 ng/ml or was rising from any number. But if you got that information from Dr. Catalona it must be true.
jimhoney not a doctor
> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Anything I should worry about? jhhtexas@ieee.org - 10 Mar 2005 21:44 GMT Guidelines used to be a PSA of 4.0. Latest guidelines from Prostate Cancer Research Foundation are anything over 2.5 may be suspect.
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 03:53 GMT I'm going with Catalona's protocol of 2.5. So anything over that I'll be getting a biopsy.
Harold - 10 Mar 2005 23:11 GMT My father also passed away from PCa - or more precisely, from "complications" related to PCa. Just as you are I also tried to keep on top of things given my father's disease. Didn't quite work out the way I had hoped.
My PSA history up to time of diagnosis:
May 1993...0.4...DRE normal Jul 1994...0.6...DRE normal May 1995...0.6...DRE normal May 1996...0.7...DRE normal Aug 1997...0.8...DRE normal Mar 1998...0.9...DRE normal Mar 1999...0.9...DRE normal Jan 2001...3.9...DRE normal - but not likely so as it turns out. Jun 2001...3.8...DRE "big, ugly nodule" per urologist
Jun 2001 biopsy results: Gleason 4 + 4 = 8 5 of 9 biopsy specimens positive for PCa % cancer in the 5 specimens-50,70,80,90 & 100% Biopsy indicated perineural invasion was present.
Prior to March 1998 my DRE's were done by my family physician (Internal Medicine) who was aware of my father had PCa.
In March 1998 (PSA 0.9) I had a urologist do a thorough DRE just to see what he would find. he found nothing and given my PSA & normal DRE history he said I had "less the 1% chance of having PCa". He was aware my father had PCa.
March 1999 PSA was same as prior year of 0.9
22 months later my PSA was 3.9 and my internal medicine physician prescribed Cipro thinking the increase may be the result of prostate infection. Her DRE did not detect an abnormality but I think she likely just missed it. She had small hands.
Later when the PSA was essentially unchanged at 3.9 the same urologist I saw in 1998 found a "big ugly nodule".
You should note that until my PSA jumped, in 22 months, from 0.9 to 3.9 my PSA velocity was a low 0.1 per year when 0.75 is the level of concern. However my PSA doubling time was 5.1 years. According to Dr. Strum, and perhaps others, a doubling time of less than 12 years is cause for more thorough evaluation for PCa.
So my suggestion is that even at your age of 37 you have an annual PSA & DRE, that you keep the record of those and that you track both PSA velocity and PSA doubling time.
>From what I understand a PSAV of more than 0.75 ng/ml per year OR a PSADT of less than 12 years (some may say 10 years) warrants a vist to someone well schooled in the fine art of PCa and that you demand a very thorough review of your situation.
Regards, Harold
Harold - 10 Mar 2005 23:20 GMT Dick, I should have mentioned in my low PSA history given that I was 55 in 1993 and was 63 when diagnosed.
Harold
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:01 GMT Harold, I'm so sorry to read what you went through. Sounds like you stayed on top of things too. Yes, I plan on doing this every year, so I can (hopefully) avoid my fathers fate.
I'm glad you brought up about the doubling time in less than 12 years. That's something I'll keep an eye on. Would you say that if it doubles in less than 10 or 12 years, it should warrant a biopsy?
Also, did your father have an aggressive form of PCa? My father did, but I haven't read any studies that indicates the cancer behaviour can passed down.
Harold - 12 Mar 2005 14:43 GMT > Harold, > I'm so sorry to read what you went through. Sounds like you stayed on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's something I'll keep an eye on. Would you say that if it doubles > in less than 10 or 12 years, it should warrant a biopsy? Response from harold...
Dr. Stephen Strum, who along with Donna Pogliano wrote what some folks may consider the "Bible" on PCa titled (A Primer on Prostate Cancer". I quote as follows from the book:
If the rate of doubling of PSA (PSA doubling time or PSADT) or the rate of increase in PSA (PSA velocity or PSAV) is abnormal, then PC is more likely (the book has more likely in italics) present than not.
The book then follows with this statement which was printed in RED in the book:
A PSADT shorter than twelve years and a PSA velocity greater than0.75 ng/ml/year (nonograms per milliliter per year) relates to a greater probability of a malignant condition.
The book also states these are adjunctive tests, and although they are not absolute criteria for or against malignacy, they are valuable tools.
Dick, as to whether a biopsy is warranted if your PSAV OR PSADT is abnormal, I will leave that decision to you and your doctor who, hopefully, is someone with broad and current knowledge of PCa and who is treating men with PCa. From my own experience I think it is fair to say that just because a physician in a internist or urologist that does not deem them competent in diagnosing and treating PCa.
Be vigilant in keeping yourself up to date, find a physician with experience in treating PCa then be your own strong advocate. Ask questions, seek answers and if you are not comfortable that your physician is forthcoming then fire him / her and find someone else. I say that with the wisdom of hindsight.
> Also, did your father have an aggressive form of PCa? My father did, > but I haven't read any studies that indicates the cancer behaviour can > passed down. Response from Harold
Dick, unfortuntely at a time that my father was dealing with his PCa the disease was not a subject of widespread conversation. He said little about it, I was younger then and asked little about it so my knowledge of his PCa is quite limited. His physician has retired from practice and my attempt to get hold of his PCa medical record was not successful.
I am not making that mistake with my son who is one year younger than you are. I keep him up to date on my situation and he is aware that he is in a higher risk category.
Finally, even though you at a higher risk for PCa , it should not be a foregone conclusion you will develop PCa. The odds favor the fact that most men will not have PCa that threaten their lives. PCa should be a concern to you but not overwhelmingly so. Be vigilant but for sure go about your life knowing that you more likely won't than will develop PCa.
You may also want to update your knowledge on lifestyle issues, nutrition and supplements that may - may - help to reduce the chance of acquiring PCa. There is not a lot of absolute "for sures" on this subject but is there some indications there are things you can do in your quest to avoid PCa.
Also you are young and it is the hope, I think, of all men with PCa that within the next few years early diagnosis will be enhanced, treatment regimens improved and, of course, the ultimate hope is for a cure.
One final thing...if you are married be sure your wife is kept in the loop so she acts as your partner and friend with your knowledge, your concerns and your activities related to this subject. My wife goes with me to my physician visits so she can hear my questions and his answers. She has actually sat in the examining room whilst my doc was doing the infamous DRE so she understands that procedure. As I was bent over I just looked at her, smiled, winked and she smiled and shrugged her shoulders - sort of an "oh well" gesture. Not a great scene but just wanted to emphasize that I think it important that as you move forward keep your wife involved although I'm not sure I would recommend that with a girlfriend.
All the best,
Harold
I. P. Freely - 12 Mar 2005 19:01 GMT "Harold" <haroldhull@robsoncom.net> wrote >
> Dr. Stephen Strum, who along with Donna Pogliano wrote what some folks > may consider the "Bible" on PCa titled (A Primer on Prostate Cancer". I asked my doc about Strum yesterday, in general and about a couple of particular points. He said that because Strum doesn't produce peer-revieved literature, his prolific non-reviewed literature isn't as highly regarded in the community as that of academicians who spend their career performing trials and publishing peer-reviewed reports. And I gotta admit, I do see some inexplicable self-contradictions in some of Strum's charts; I hope it's just in interpretations, as I'm putting a lot of faith in Strum's SE statistics (which are supported by huge quantities of data). There's no dispersion intended, just lack of proof compared to peer-reviewed literature. Walsh, for example, lists about 450 peer-reviewed pubs (with, of course, his students' names also on them).
I.P.
Harold - 13 Mar 2005 00:57 GMT > "Harold" <haroldhull@robsoncom.net> wrote > > > Dr. Stephen Strum, who along with Donna Pogliano wrote what some folks [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I.P. Comments from Harold
In my opinion the only certainty about PCa is the uncertainty of treatment regimens. I have not nor do I expect to say that the dissertations from any PCa "expert" are applicable to any particular PCa case. It seems to me that almost every PCa situation has a uniqueness of its own.
There are a number of medical practioners who are experts in the treatment of PCa and I think that if we reviewed every study they have produced we would find a variety of conflicts amongst the experts.
It just seems to me that at some point in time men with PCa need to make some decisions about their treatment regimen and will do so lacking any absolute certainties of outcome. Perhaps educated guesses, perhaps earnest opinions, perhaps some decent evidence - but no certainties.
I just happen to be one of those folks who, in general, believe that doing something that may have some chance at success is better than doing nothing ot just waiting around for some of the clinical trials to bear fruition.
My PCa is an aggressive type with a Gleason of 4+4=8 and staged at T3a. I felt did not have time to wait around for the certainties and was willing to plow ahead with the uncertainties. I understand that may not be everyone's position but it was mine.
Harold
I. P. Freely - 13 Mar 2005 01:28 GMT Your case and mine sound very similar going in (surgery and pathology revealed that mine involved a seminal vesicle unexpectedly), so I had no temptation to delay initial treatment. It's the adjuvant treatment where much more than "chances of success" count, where the therapeutic index becomes far more dependent on its denominator (SEs) than on its numerator (benefits). And nobody I've found addresses SEs in the detail Strum does, especially as concerns my proposed adjuvant treatment, ADT. The SEs seem far more certain than the benefits, making my choice pretty straightforward once the research stopped producing anything different.
I.P. "Harold" <haroldhull@robsoncom.net> wrote >
> In my opinion the only certainty about PCa is the uncertainty of > treatment regimens. I have not nor do I expect to say that the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Harold Harold - 13 Mar 2005 02:01 GMT I.P. Freely said:
"...The SEs seem far more certain than the benefits, making my choice pretty straightforward once the research stopped producing anything different."
Comment from Harold:
I don't disagree with that position but I found the side effects (SE) tolerable. I know full well that ADT is not a cure.
I am fighting an aggressive form of PCa and I am willing to throw everything at it I can which is why I have had ADT3, chemotherapy and Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy (IMRT).
I have no specific knowledge any of that will result in a reasonable extension of my life. Mentally I feel better from doing everything I could to ward off the ravages of PCa. My mental attitude was important to me. I have been off all PCa treatment for 23 months. At the moment I feel fine, I am able to go where I want to go and do what I want to do.
I do have some problem with erectile dysfunction (ED) but my wife and I just work through that issue. Other than that I have no obvious residual SE's.
I would not tell anyone that I KNOW I have done the right thing to extend my life. I will tell everyone that I have done what I wanted to do to fight PCa. At the end of the day I do not want to have left undone those things I ought to have done.
We all need to make our own decisions based on our own conclusions and just move ahead with life. I would not argue with anyone who made different decisions on how they treated their PCa.
Harold
Steve Kramer - 13 Mar 2005 08:00 GMT > In my opinion the only certainty about PCa is the uncertainty of > treatment regimens. I have not nor do I expect to say that the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > treatment of PCa and I think that if we reviewed every study they have > produced we would find a variety of conflicts amongst the experts. And, that's GOOD news! It's better than when my father had PCa and the treatments were standard and the outcome was certain.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum
Leonard Evens - 11 Mar 2005 02:10 GMT > I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Anything I should worry about? Not now. As my urologist said to me on another matter "This is not rocket science". There is some significant variation in PSA values and the difference between 0.7 and 0.8 is not significant in this context. PSA values can be affected by a wide variety of factors, including sexual activity.
Talk to your doctor about the matter and decide on when you should start regular testing.
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:03 GMT The problem is, I don't trust doctors, as after my father died, all of them said to get tested around 50.
Steve Kramer - 11 Mar 2005 07:14 GMT You need not worry about cancer with a PSA of .8 at 37. Continue to get tested annually and see if it stays the same. You merely need a baseline measurement at this time in your life.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA .07 .05 .06 .05
non Illegitimi carborundum
> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Anything I should worry about? Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:05 GMT Thanks Steve, I remember I asked about getting tested several months ago, and I believe it was you who said to get tested to establish a baseline, and that's exactly what I did. I took your advice, so thank you!
Mike - 11 Mar 2005 10:47 GMT You are doing the right thing! The chances are, you might have a genetic predisposition so keeping an eye on things is definitely a good idea. Hell, it might be worth asking for a prostatectomy now; after all, women with a family history of BCa are sometimes opting for mastectomy, a far more drastic operation! Better safe than sorry!
Mike
> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Anything I should worry about? JohnG - 11 Mar 2005 23:12 GMT > You are doing the right thing! The chances are, you might have a > genetic predisposition so keeping an eye on things is definitely a good > idea. Hell, it might be worth asking for a prostatectomy now; after > all, women with a family history of BCa are sometimes opting for > mastectomy, a far more drastic operation! Better safe than sorry! Hi, Mike.
Sounds like that would be BOTH safe AND sorry.
JohnG
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:06 GMT Mike, don't think it hasn't entered in my mind. Perhaps if (God forbid) my brother gets PCa, I'll seriously consider it.
JerryW - 13 Mar 2005 01:57 GMT Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa. Even more incredible would be that some third party insurer/payer might consider paying for any portion of it. I would be just as surprised if the medical community were performing partial or radical mastectomies in the absence of clinical evidence of the presence of cancer.
In over thirty years in the medical field, I have never heard of this. Could be happening, but it would surprise me.
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/18/05 PSA <0.1
> You are doing the right thing! The chances are, you might have a genetic > predisposition so keeping an eye on things is definitely a good idea. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Anything I should worry about? Leonard Evens - 13 Mar 2005 14:44 GMT > Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a > prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa. Even more > incredible would be that some third party insurer/payer might consider > paying for any portion of it. I would be just as surprised if the medical > community were performing partial or radical mastectomies in the absence of > clinical evidence of the presence of cancer. There is a gene which makes the likelihood of breast cancer very high. Women who have this gene may have prophylactic surgery to remove their breasts in some cases. As far as I know, no one has isolated a corresponding gene for prostate cancer.
> In over thirty years in the medical field, I have never heard of this. Could > be happening, but it would surprise me. Heather - 13 Mar 2005 22:38 GMT > > Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a > > prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa.
> There is a gene which makes the likelihood of breast cancer very high. > Women who have this gene may have prophylactic surgery to remove their breasts in some cases. As far as I know, no one has isolated a
> corresponding gene for prostate cancer. There are several articles on the BRAC1 and 2 gene markers with regard to breast cancer......but the following link from British reseachers in Oct. of 2002 said they were doing studies on men with this gene, due to there being a higher chance of getting Pca.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2377265.stm
If you put the appropriate words into Google, there is a host of websites with regard to genetic testing on the above BRAC genes...and newer ones such as P65 which US researchers are investigating with regard to Pca.
Heather
Heather - 14 Mar 2005 01:32 GMT Oops.....dyslexia comes with 'old age', grin. The gene is "BRCA", aptly named for BReast CAncer!!
I was mildly interested in this discovery because my mother had breast cancer (the doctors allege), but I probably wouldn't get tested. It's the "allege" part......we don't think she had it. Not being able to get a path report after her surgery being one reason......and my father was in the medical field.
Heather
> > > Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a > > > prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Heather Mike - 14 Mar 2005 20:10 GMT > There are several articles on the BRAC1 and 2 gene markers with regard to > breast cancer And now there is BRCA3 too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1808908.stm
No idea if it is linked to PCa. Assume it is.
Mike
Mike - 14 Mar 2005 20:15 GMT You better believe it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/3848369.stm
These genes are vicious and any reputable surgeon should perform such an operation. What are the alternatives? Wait till you die of breast cancer/prostate cancer? The case for the latter op is greater, since the physical disfigurement is less.
If I had known in time, I would have opted for the operation!
Mike
>> Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform >> a prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> In over thirty years in the medical field, I have never heard of this. >> Could be happening, but it would surprise me.
|
|
|