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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2005

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Is my PSA Ok?

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Dick Smith - 10 Mar 2005 21:13 GMT
I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8

But I found this response from Dr Catalona's regarding PSA.

"Here is what I recommend for prostate cancer screening: annual PSA
anddigital rectal examination beginning at age 40, or earlier in men
with a family history of early age-at-onset prostate cancer (PSA levels
should be 0.6 to 0.7 ng/ml in men in their 40s and 50s without prostate
disease);"

He says .6 to .7

My dad died from PC a couple years ago at the age of 74. He was Dx when
he was 64. So I'm trying to stay on top of things.

Anything I should worry about?
Dave LaCourse - 10 Mar 2005 21:27 GMT
>I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Anything I should worry about?

I don't think you have anything to *immediately* worry about, but keep
an eye out for future trouble.  Make sure you have a dre (digital
rectal exam) yearly and that you doc takes notes on how large/shape of
organ.  If you move or change docs, make sure your new doc has the
notes taken by your first doc.  My cancer was found by a dre from a
doc who had been poking me for about 20 years.  My psa was 3.4 (at age
59 considered normal) and he felt a little "pimple-like" shape.  He
advised me to see a urologist and have a biopsy taken.  I did and the
rest is history.

So, keep tabs on your prostate gland.  Have a regular dre and your psa
taken.  If there are extreme changes, ask your doc for advice.

Good luck.   Hope I don't see you around here for 20 or 30 years.
d;o)

Dave
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 03:51 GMT
Yes,
When I got back I need to get the DRE. I didn't want to get that the
same day as the PSA as I know it can skew the results.
James A Honeychuck - 10 Mar 2005 21:36 GMT
No.  As you suggested in another post, the doctor will be watching for
PSA velocity regardless of the baseline number.

Frankly I have never heard that PSA should be only 0.6 to 0.7 ng/ml.  I
thought doctors did not get concerned until it reached about 4 ng/ml or
was rising from any number.  But if you got that information from Dr.
Catalona it must be true.

jimhoney
not a doctor

> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Anything I should worry about?
jhhtexas@ieee.org - 10 Mar 2005 21:44 GMT
Guidelines used to be a PSA of 4.0. Latest guidelines from Prostate
Cancer Research Foundation are anything over 2.5 may be suspect.
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 03:53 GMT
I'm going with Catalona's protocol of 2.5. So anything over that I'll
be getting a biopsy.
Harold - 10 Mar 2005 23:11 GMT
My father also passed away from PCa - or more precisely, from
"complications" related to PCa.  Just as you are I also tried to keep
on top of things given my father's disease.  Didn't quite work out the
way I had hoped.

My PSA history up to time of diagnosis:

May 1993...0.4...DRE normal
Jul 1994...0.6...DRE normal
May 1995...0.6...DRE normal
May 1996...0.7...DRE normal
Aug 1997...0.8...DRE normal
Mar 1998...0.9...DRE normal
Mar 1999...0.9...DRE normal
Jan 2001...3.9...DRE normal - but not likely so as it turns out.
Jun 2001...3.8...DRE "big, ugly nodule" per urologist

Jun  2001 biopsy results:
Gleason 4 + 4 = 8
5 of 9 biopsy specimens positive for PCa
% cancer in the 5 specimens-50,70,80,90 & 100%
Biopsy indicated perineural invasion was present.

Prior to March 1998 my DRE's were done by my family physician (Internal
Medicine) who was aware of my father had PCa.

In March 1998 (PSA 0.9) I had a urologist do a thorough DRE just to see
what he would find.  he found nothing and given my PSA & normal DRE
history he said I had "less the 1% chance of having PCa".  He was aware
my father had PCa.

March 1999 PSA was same as prior year of 0.9

22 months later my PSA was 3.9 and my internal medicine physician
prescribed Cipro thinking the increase may be the result of prostate
infection.  Her DRE did not detect an abnormality but I think she
likely just missed it.  She had small hands.

Later when the PSA was essentially unchanged at 3.9 the same urologist
I saw in 1998 found a "big ugly nodule".

You should note that until my PSA jumped, in 22 months, from 0.9 to 3.9
my PSA velocity was a low 0.1 per year when 0.75 is the level of
concern.  However my PSA doubling time was 5.1 years.  According to Dr.
Strum, and perhaps others, a doubling time of less than 12 years is
cause for more thorough evaluation for PCa.

So my suggestion is that even at your age of 37 you have an annual PSA
& DRE, that you keep the record of those and that you track both PSA
velocity and PSA doubling time.

>From what I understand a PSAV of more than 0.75 ng/ml per year OR a
PSADT of less than 12 years (some may say 10 years) warrants a vist to
someone well schooled in the fine art of PCa and that you demand a very
thorough review of your situation.

Regards,  Harold
Harold - 10 Mar 2005 23:20 GMT
Dick, I should have mentioned in my low PSA history given that I was 55
in 1993 and was 63 when diagnosed.

Harold
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:01 GMT
Harold,
I'm so sorry to read what you went through. Sounds like you stayed on
top of things too. Yes, I plan on doing this every year, so I can
(hopefully) avoid my fathers fate.

I'm glad you brought up about the doubling time in less than 12 years.
That's something I'll keep an eye on. Would you say that if it doubles
in less than 10 or 12 years, it should warrant a biopsy?

Also, did your father have an aggressive form of PCa? My father did,
but I haven't read any studies that indicates the cancer behaviour can
passed down.
Harold - 12 Mar 2005 14:43 GMT
> Harold,
> I'm so sorry to read what you went through. Sounds like you stayed on
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> That's something I'll keep an eye on. Would you say that if it doubles
> in less than 10 or 12 years, it should warrant a biopsy?

Response from harold...

Dr. Stephen Strum, who along with Donna Pogliano wrote what some folks
may consider the "Bible" on PCa titled (A Primer on Prostate Cancer".
I quote as follows from the book:

If the rate of doubling of PSA (PSA doubling time or PSADT) or the rate
of increase in PSA (PSA velocity or PSAV) is abnormal, then PC is more
likely (the book has more likely in italics) present than not.

The book then follows with this statement which was printed in RED in
the book:

A PSADT shorter than twelve years and a PSA velocity greater than0.75
ng/ml/year (nonograms per milliliter per year) relates to a greater
probability of a malignant condition.

The book also states these are adjunctive tests, and although they are
not absolute criteria for or against malignacy, they are valuable
tools.

Dick, as to whether a biopsy is warranted if your PSAV OR PSADT is
abnormal, I will leave that decision to you and your doctor who,
hopefully, is someone with broad and current knowledge of PCa and who
is treating men with PCa.  From my own experience I think it is fair to
say that just because a physician in a internist or urologist that does
not deem them competent in diagnosing and treating PCa.

Be vigilant in keeping yourself up to date, find a physician with
experience in treating PCa then be your own strong advocate.  Ask
questions, seek answers and if you are not comfortable that your
physician is forthcoming then fire him / her and find someone else.  I
say that with the wisdom of hindsight.

> Also, did your father have an aggressive form of PCa? My father did,
> but I haven't read any studies that indicates the cancer behaviour can
> passed down.

Response from Harold

Dick, unfortuntely at a time that my father was dealing with his PCa
the disease was not a subject of widespread conversation.  He said
little about it, I was younger then and asked little about it so my
knowledge of his PCa is quite limited.  His physician has retired from
practice and my attempt to get hold of his PCa medical record was not
successful.

I am not making that mistake with my son who is one year younger than
you are.  I keep him up to date on my situation and he is aware that he
is in a higher risk category.

Finally, even though you at a higher risk for PCa , it should not be a
foregone conclusion you will develop PCa.  The odds favor the fact that
most men will not have PCa that threaten their lives.  PCa should be a
concern to you but not overwhelmingly so.  Be vigilant but for sure go
about your life knowing that you more likely won't than will develop
PCa.

You may also want to update your knowledge on lifestyle issues,
nutrition and supplements that may - may - help to reduce the chance of
acquiring PCa.  There is not a lot of absolute "for sures" on this
subject but is there some indications there are things you can do in
your quest to avoid PCa.

Also you are young and it is the hope, I think, of all men with PCa
that within the next few years early diagnosis will be enhanced,
treatment regimens improved and, of course, the ultimate hope is for a
cure.

One final thing...if you are married be sure your wife is kept in the
loop so she acts as your partner and friend with your knowledge, your
concerns and your activities related to this subject.  My wife goes
with me to my physician visits so she can hear my questions and his
answers.  She has actually sat in the examining room whilst my doc was
doing the infamous DRE so she understands that procedure.  As I was
bent over I just looked at her, smiled, winked and she smiled and
shrugged her shoulders  - sort of an "oh well" gesture.  Not a great
scene but just wanted to emphasize that I think it important that as
you move forward keep your wife involved although I'm not sure I would
recommend that with a girlfriend.

All the best,

Harold
I. P. Freely - 12 Mar 2005 19:01 GMT
"Harold" <haroldhull@robsoncom.net> wrote >
> Dr. Stephen Strum, who along with Donna Pogliano wrote what some folks
> may consider the "Bible" on PCa titled (A Primer on Prostate Cancer".

I asked my doc about Strum yesterday, in general and about a couple of
particular points. He said that because Strum doesn't produce peer-revieved
literature, his prolific non-reviewed literature isn't as highly regarded in
the community as that of academicians who spend their career performing
trials and publishing peer-reviewed reports. And I gotta admit, I do see
some inexplicable self-contradictions in some of Strum's charts; I hope it's
just in interpretations, as I'm putting a lot of faith in Strum's SE
statistics (which are supported by huge quantities of data). There's no
dispersion intended, just lack of proof compared to peer-reviewed
literature. Walsh, for example, lists about 450 peer-reviewed pubs (with, of
course, his students' names also on them).

I.P.
Harold - 13 Mar 2005 00:57 GMT
> "Harold" <haroldhull@robsoncom.net> wrote >
> > Dr. Stephen Strum, who along with Donna Pogliano wrote what some folks
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I.P.

Comments from Harold

In my opinion the only certainty about PCa is the uncertainty of
treatment regimens.  I have not nor do I expect to say that the
dissertations from any PCa "expert" are applicable to any particular
PCa case.  It seems to me that almost every PCa situation has a
uniqueness of its own.

There are a number of medical practioners who are experts in the
treatment of PCa and I think that if we reviewed every study they have
produced we would find a variety of conflicts amongst the experts.

It just seems to me that at some point in time men with PCa need to
make some decisions about their treatment regimen and will do so
lacking any absolute certainties of outcome.  Perhaps educated guesses,
perhaps earnest opinions, perhaps some decent evidence - but no
certainties.

I just happen to be one of those folks who, in general, believe that
doing something that may have some chance at success is better than
doing nothing ot just waiting around for some of the clinical trials to
bear fruition.

My PCa is an aggressive type with a Gleason of 4+4=8 and staged at T3a.
I felt did not have time to wait around for the certainties and was
willing to plow ahead with the uncertainties.  I understand that may
not be everyone's position but it was mine.

Harold
I. P. Freely - 13 Mar 2005 01:28 GMT
Your case and mine sound very similar going in (surgery and pathology
revealed that mine involved a seminal vesicle unexpectedly), so I had no
temptation to delay initial treatment. It's the adjuvant treatment where
much more than "chances of success" count, where the therapeutic index
becomes far more dependent on its denominator (SEs) than on its numerator
(benefits). And nobody I've found addresses SEs in the detail Strum does,
especially as concerns my proposed adjuvant treatment, ADT. The SEs seem far
more certain than the benefits, making my choice pretty straightforward once
the research stopped producing anything different.

I.P. "Harold" <haroldhull@robsoncom.net> wrote >
> In my opinion the only certainty about PCa is the uncertainty of
> treatment regimens.  I have not nor do I expect to say that the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Harold
Harold - 13 Mar 2005 02:01 GMT
I.P. Freely said:

"...The SEs seem far more certain than the benefits, making my choice
pretty straightforward once
the research stopped producing anything different."

Comment from Harold:

I don't disagree with that position but I found the side effects (SE)
tolerable. I know full well that ADT is not a cure.

I am fighting an aggressive form of PCa and I am willing to throw
everything at it I can which is why I have had ADT3, chemotherapy and
Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy (IMRT).

I have no specific knowledge any of that will result in a reasonable
extension of my life.  Mentally I feel better from doing everything I
could to ward off the ravages of PCa.  My mental attitude was important
to me.  I have been off all PCa treatment for 23 months.  At the moment
I feel fine, I am able to go where I want to go and do what I want to
do.

I do have some problem with erectile dysfunction (ED) but my wife and I
just work through that issue.  Other than that I have no obvious
residual SE's.

I would not tell anyone that I KNOW I have done the right thing to
extend my life.  I will tell everyone that I have done what I wanted to
do to fight PCa.  At the end of the day I do not want to have left
undone those things I ought to have done.

We all need to make our own decisions based on our own conclusions and
just move ahead with life.  I would not argue with anyone who made
different decisions on how they treated their PCa.

Harold
Steve Kramer - 13 Mar 2005 08:00 GMT
> In my opinion the only certainty about PCa is the uncertainty of
> treatment regimens.  I have not nor do I expect to say that the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> treatment of PCa and I think that if we reviewed every study they have
> produced we would find a variety of conflicts amongst the experts.

And, that's GOOD news!  It's better than when my father had PCa and the
treatments were standard and the outcome was certain.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05

non Illegitimi carborundum

Leonard Evens - 11 Mar 2005 02:10 GMT
> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Anything I should worry about?

Not now.  As my urologist said to me on another matter "This is not
rocket science".  There is some significant variation in PSA values and
the difference between 0.7 and 0.8 is not significant in this context.
PSA values can be affected by a wide variety of factors, including
sexual activity.

Talk to your doctor about the matter and decide on when you should start
regular testing.
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:03 GMT
The problem is, I don't trust doctors, as after my father died, all of
them said to get tested around 50.
Steve Kramer - 11 Mar 2005 07:14 GMT
You need not worry about cancer with a PSA of .8 at 37.  Continue to get
tested annually and see if it stays the same.  You merely need a baseline
measurement at this time in your life.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05

non Illegitimi carborundum

> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Anything I should worry about?
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:05 GMT
Thanks Steve, I remember I asked about getting tested several months
ago, and I believe it was you who said to get tested to establish a
baseline, and that's exactly what I did. I took your advice, so thank
you!
Mike - 11 Mar 2005 10:47 GMT
You are doing the right thing!  The chances are, you might have a genetic
predisposition so keeping an eye on things is definitely a good idea.  Hell, it
might be worth asking for a prostatectomy now; after all, women with a family
history of BCa are sometimes opting for mastectomy, a far more drastic
operation!  Better safe than sorry!

Mike

> I'm 37 and had my PSA checked a few months ago. It was 0.8
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Anything I should worry about?
JohnG - 11 Mar 2005 23:12 GMT
> You are doing the right thing!  The chances are, you might have a
> genetic predisposition so keeping an eye on things is definitely a good
> idea.  Hell, it might be worth asking for a prostatectomy now; after
> all, women with a family history of BCa are sometimes opting for
> mastectomy, a far more drastic operation!  Better safe than sorry!

Hi, Mike.

Sounds like that would be BOTH safe AND sorry.

JohnG
Dick Smith - 12 Mar 2005 04:06 GMT
Mike, don't think it hasn't entered in my mind. Perhaps if (God forbid)
my brother gets PCa, I'll seriously consider it.
JerryW - 13 Mar 2005 01:57 GMT
Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a
prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa. Even more
incredible would be that some third party insurer/payer might consider
paying for any portion of it. I would be just as surprised if the medical
community were performing partial or radical mastectomies in the absence of
clinical evidence of the presence of cancer.

In over thirty years in the medical field, I have never heard of this. Could
be happening, but it would surprise me.
Signature

JerryW
jweindel at flash dot net

2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62)
2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe
5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes
7/13/04 PSA <0.1
10/12/04 PSA <0.1
1/18/05 PSA <0.1

> You are doing the right thing!  The chances are, you might have a genetic
> predisposition so keeping an eye on things is definitely a good idea.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>> Anything I should worry about?
Leonard Evens - 13 Mar 2005 14:44 GMT
> Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a
> prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa. Even more
> incredible would be that some third party insurer/payer might consider
> paying for any portion of it. I would be just as surprised if the medical
> community were performing partial or radical mastectomies in the absence of
> clinical evidence of the presence of cancer.

There is a gene which makes the likelihood of breast cancer very high.
Women who have this gene may have prophylactic surgery to remove their
breasts in some cases.   As far as I know, no one has isolated a
corresponding gene for prostate cancer.

> In over thirty years in the medical field, I have never heard of this. Could
> be happening, but it would surprise me.
Heather - 13 Mar 2005 22:38 GMT
> > Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a
> > prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa.

> There is a gene which makes the likelihood of breast cancer very high.
> Women who have this gene may have prophylactic surgery to remove their
breasts in some cases.   As far as I know, no one has isolated a
> corresponding gene for prostate cancer.

There are several articles on the BRAC1 and 2 gene markers with regard to
breast cancer......but the following link from British reseachers in Oct. of
2002 said they were doing studies on men with this gene, due to there being
a higher chance of getting Pca.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2377265.stm

If you put the appropriate words into Google, there is a host of websites
with regard to genetic testing on the above BRAC genes...and newer ones such
as P65 which US researchers are investigating with regard to Pca.

Heather
Heather - 14 Mar 2005 01:32 GMT
Oops.....dyslexia comes with 'old age', grin.  The gene is "BRCA", aptly
named for BReast CAncer!!

I was mildly interested in this discovery because my mother had breast
cancer (the doctors allege), but I probably wouldn't get tested.  It's the
"allege" part......we don't think she had it.  Not being able to get a path
report after her surgery being one reason......and my father was in the
medical field.

Heather

> > > Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform a
> > > prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Heather
Mike - 14 Mar 2005 20:10 GMT
> There are several articles on the BRAC1 and 2 gene markers with regard to
> breast cancer

And now there is BRCA3 too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1808908.stm

No idea if it is linked to PCa.  Assume it is.

Mike
Mike - 14 Mar 2005 20:15 GMT
You better believe it!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/3848369.stm

These genes are vicious and any reputable surgeon should perform such an
operation.  What are the alternatives?  Wait till you die of breast
cancer/prostate cancer?  The case for the latter op is greater, since the
physical disfigurement is less.

If I had known in time, I would have opted for the operation!

Mike

>> Mike, I have a hard time believing any reputable surgeon would perform
>> a prophylactic RRP, based only on a genetic predisposition for PCa.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> In over thirty years in the medical field, I have never heard of this.
>> Could be happening, but it would surprise me.
 
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