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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2005

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at the crossroads

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Clarence Crow - 25 Feb 2005 18:55 GMT
Hi again all,

Yesterday my primary care physician (G.P.) told me I was overdoing it,
trying to get in 3 days work a week whilst on ADT. My Rad starts in 3
wks and I've blocked out a time slot for that to exclude work for the
5-6 wks period. Also I'm in for HDR Brachytherapy on my 70th birthday,
July 11, 2005. Then I'm back on ADT for another 12 mths.

I'm aware of the diminishing QOL caused by the SEs, but I'm finding it
difficult to throw in the towel re work, even though I'm getting less
interested in it. Just being there gives me contact with other persons
in the non-PCa world and keeps my mind away from brooding. The job is
also high-pressure. I'm a Consultant Estimator in the Construction and
Resources Sectors, but I've been doing this for over 30 yrs, so I can
deflect a lot of the stressful moments from past experience.

To pull the plug on this, what can I do? Teach kids that don't want to
learn, don't want to work and can't even play Scrabble, 'cos they
don't know words? I think NOT!

Maybe, I could find some persons in my own age bracket, who knows?

One thing, I don't want to be a usenet groupie, who has no other place
to go.

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-- CC
Steve Kramer - 25 Feb 2005 22:57 GMT
> Hi again all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm aware of the diminishing QOL caused by the SEs, but I'm finding it
> difficult to throw in the towel re work,

I'm with you, Neville.  Who can possibly tell you how much work you can or
cannot do while on ADT or RT?  Admittedly, I'm 20 years your younger, but I
never took a day off work during RT or ADT.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05

non Illegitimi carborundum

I. P. Freely - 25 Feb 2005 23:13 GMT
Keep it coming, guys. My oncologists see at least your statistics every time
we talk, and I've got to tell him in 14 days whether to continue after my
28-day ADT trial or $#!+can it. So far I haven't felt a thing except T
flare, which feels GREAT.

And you must have a better job than I ever found.

I.P.
> "Clarence Crow" <crow@perch.biz> wrote in message
>> Yesterday my primary care physician (G.P.) told me I was overdoing it,
>> trying to get in 3 days work a week whilst on ADT.

>> I'm aware of the diminishing QOL caused by the SEs, but I'm finding it
>> difficult to throw in the towel re work,
Clarence Crow - 26 Feb 2005 00:30 GMT
>Keep it coming, guys. My oncologists see at least your statistics every time
>we talk, and I've got to tell him in 14 days whether to continue after my
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>I.P.

They should've given you at least 1 wk on anti-androgen tabs to
suppress the testosterone flare and the hot flushes. (I stayed on
those for 10 wks before the dual modal effect almost drove me insane
[sic]).

28 days should be enough time to feel the ADT start to bite. It
usually kicks in at the 3 week mark and gets progressively worse.

Re: my job....I designed and set up the Computerised Estimating system
in the main Company I've been contracted to since 1987, and have
managed the upgrading etc. as the Hardware and Software technology
moved upwards.. Seemed to be the right and natural thing to do at the
time, but now, it's proving good Insurance ;)

Maybe I'll tough it out after all!

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-- CC
I. P. Freely - 26 Feb 2005 01:27 GMT
No way, Clarence. I LOVE the flare. I sleep better, bound out of bed in the
morning, and feel like a kid until bedtime. I can see why so many tired old
men w/o PC take T supplements. Right now I'm ENJOYING the only SE I've
noticed. The down side: both my experience so far and the literature
indicate that my 28-day trial isn't long enough to get past the flare, that
T suppression can take several weeks. IOW,
1. My trial may tell me nothing,
2. I may crash AFTER the trial, making it useless as decision fodder, and
3. It renders my med onc's promise that one month on ADT will paint a good
picture of one's long-term SE cocktail, and
4. Thus lessens my faith in his other promises which disagree with the
literature.

Or maybe I'll crash next week and confirm his promises and my concerns.

I.P.

"Clarence Crow" <crow@perch.biz> wrote >
> They should've given you at least 1 wk on anti-androgen tabs to
> suppress the testosterone flare and the hot flushes. (I stayed on
> those for 10 wks before the dual modal effect almost drove me insane
Clarence Crow - 26 Feb 2005 00:33 GMT
>> Hi again all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>cannot do while on ADT or RT?  Admittedly, I'm 20 years your younger, but I
>never took a day off work during RT or ADT.

But I'm less stable-minded than you, and the tantrums really drain me
;)

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-- CC
I. P. Freely - 26 Feb 2005 01:29 GMT
How do these tantrums work with driving? I get angry enough at idiot drivers
withOUT ADT.

I.P.

"Clarence Crow" <crow@perch.biz> wrote >
> But I'm less stable-minded than you, and the tantrums really drain me
Clarence Crow - 26 Feb 2005 03:07 GMT
>How do these tantrums work with driving? I get angry enough at idiot drivers
>withOUT ADT.
>
>I.P.
The road-ragers that fill your rear-view mirrors when you have to slow
down for an intersection.

I have a new Mazda SP23, so I leave them behind when the lights
change. One guy in a Mitsubishi ES wound it up so far to pass me, he
forgot about the radar trap over the crest of the hill.

I'm a tad more sedate now, but not due to the ADT ;)

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-- CC
Steve Kramer - 26 Feb 2005 11:37 GMT
> How do these tantrums work with driving? I get angry enough at idiot drivers
> withOUT ADT.

Mind over matter.  As soon as you have inculcated that you have PCa (and in
your case a double dose), you realize that there is a definite order in
life....  a definite hierarchy, if you will, of what is most important, next
most important, next most important, and so on.  Then you realize there is
really two lists in your life; the things you care about and the things you
don't.  If you're halfway intelligent, when you see someone coming up the
right side when the expressway is backed up for a mile, you train yourself
to immediately remember, in the scheme of your life, it really doesn't
matter anymore.  So, you don't wait until just the right moment, throw your
4x4 to the right running him into the guardrail, jump out of the truck, grab
the shotgun and eliminate that lump between the guy's shoulders.  ....  you
find you get by just running him into the guardrail.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05

non Illegitimi carborundum

JerryW - 26 Feb 2005 14:19 GMT
> ....  you find you get by just running him into the guardrail.

Heh, heh, heh.......
I. P. Freely - 26 Feb 2005 17:55 GMT
Funny you should mention that. I DID nudge a bumper into the side of a
(closed) right-lane runner years ago when he decided it was moi he was going
to break in front of when his lane ended at the well-publicized orange
barrels. But it wasn't about road rage, it was about education. He learned
not to try to force an old $3,000 truck out of his way with a new $45,000
sedan. ;-)

I.P.

>> How do these tantrums work with driving? I get angry enough at idiot
> drivers
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> you
> find you get by just running him into the guardrail.
Clarence Crow - 26 Feb 2005 21:58 GMT
>> How do these tantrums work with driving? I get angry enough at idiot
>drivers
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>really two lists in your life; the things you care about and the things you
>don't.
<snip>
Steve

I've been a List man since somewhere in the '60s, I was involved with
Success Motivation Institute at various levels of the Pyramid.
At least I got out with my skin after a year.

Another benefit was Time Organisation where I had to make a List of
things to do as in Imperative, Important, Tomorrow and Forget it.
My wife said I'd become an unbearable nagging nitpicker, as I was
doing all of this Literally.

What the chief leeches at SMI didn't include was a dimension for
"Unscheduled", which in Real Life can take up to 60% of your day.
(I now include and target for 40% and seldom score <50%).

The scars of all of this have still left me very intolerant of persons
who "blind-side" me and the ADT inspires me "turn over the desk and
stomp out!"


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-- Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake:

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-- CC
Steve Kramer - 27 Feb 2005 03:12 GMT
> >> How do these tantrums work with driving? I get angry enough at idiot
> >drivers
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> who "blind-side" me and the ADT inspires me "turn over the desk and
> stomp out!"

Then you know what's on the one list.  Obviously, your job is on the other.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
Seminal Vesicle involvement, Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05

non Illegitimi carborundum

Harold - 25 Feb 2005 23:41 GMT
Clarence:

You know best about how you feel and what you want to do.  You should
do what you feel like doing.

I was 64 years old when I started treatment.

I had ADT3 for 21 months and while I didn't feel the same as I did
before ADT I managed to get through it.  It was tolerable - not
terrible.

I also had 12 weeks of chemotherapy (50 mg Taxotere once a week) while
still on ADT3 and at the end of that therapy I certainly felt beat up
but I was able to keep moving - somewhat slowly - which helped me
mentally.

I also had 43 sessions (5 days a week for 8-1/2 weeks) of Intensity
Modulated Radiation Therapy (IMRT) after having completed the chemo
three months earlier and was still on ADT3 while doing the radiation
therapy.  Granted toward the end I was weary but I also felt it was
important to maintain as much a normal lifestyle as possible.

2 days after completing IMRT I drove (well, my wife and I drove) from
Los Angeles to the San Francisco area to attend the annual BIG GAME
between Cal and Stanford and a couple of days later drove back to Los
Angeles.

I say all this not because I want to say "Hey look what I did" but
rather to provide an example of what can be done.  Having ADT3,
chemotherapy & radiation therapy did not confine me to my house to sit,
brood and feel sorry for myself.

You seem to indicate you want to stay on the job and live at least a
somewhat normal life so I'm just encouraging you to make the decisions
you feel best about and not based on what some physician "thinks" how
you feel.  You said you are finding it difficult to "throw in the towel
re work."  Well, then don't unless it becomes apparent to YOU that you
are doing yourself more harm than good.

We all react differently to treatment regimens and we do need to take
care of ourselves but we also need to keep on living while doing
treatment we hope will keep us alive.

Best regards to you.

Harold
Clarence Crow - 26 Feb 2005 00:52 GMT
>Clarence:
>
>You know best about how you feel and what you want to do.  You should
>do what you feel like doing.
<snip>
You've certainly had the main course and all the 'entrees when it
comes to PCa. Congrats. for hanging on!.

>You seem to indicate you want to stay on the job and live at least a
>somewhat normal life so I'm just encouraging you to make the decisions
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>care of ourselves but we also need to keep on living while doing
>treatment we hope will keep us alive.

I have a few other ailments that are flaring as a result of the ADT.
I'm trying to medicate myself against these flares, hence getting some
better pain-killers for Osteo Arthritis. (I don't need a Bone Mineral
Density test right now). So I'll be soldiering on at work for a while
yet.
I do have to take off the time for the RAD as the Clinic is a 90 mile
round trip each day.

Thanks for the encouragement.

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Gut-Buster - 26 Feb 2005 12:30 GMT
> To pull the plug on this, what can I do?

You can stop thinking in boxes.

When I started working, I was a sales assistant in a music store and moved
on to a clothes store. I got jack of that sort of life and went into
accounts and on to working 3 years in a bank. After that I landed a great
job in accounts again (9 day fortnight, good pay) for 7 years before they
retrenched 56 of us, no warning. By that time I was 29 and thinking my time
was limited in the accounts area but landed a stressful job in charge of the
whole finance side for a wine import company. I lasted a good 3 months
before I got sick from an overactive thyroid and chucked in the towel. That
was fixed and I moved back into accounts again and worked my way up through
the levels in a car company until I was second in charge of finance there.
At that point I was working 8AM to 10PM no break, 5 days a week and 9AM to
4PM Saturdays and was starting to go crazy.

I decided my life and wife were worth more than that and changed career
entirely and went to an internal sales rep for a printing company and ended
up going through quite a few companies always doing better and better until
I had a great job, company car, great pay and then got pretty sick with yet
another health problem. 7 years later and somewhat better though never going
to be what I was before, I realised I could earn some money again and took
up computer repair.

Look to what skills you have, what interests you have and use them. If you
aren't hard up for money, do the thing you like and can do on a casual basis
where you name your own hours. That is ALL I can do now. I don't earn enough
to live on and my wife has to work and support us both but I still earn
SOMETHING and don't feel quite as much a bludger as I used to do.

Added to all this the prostate problem and many other problems. However, I
still get up each day, do what has to be done and continue till it IS done.
I worked a 23 hour shift (for myself) last week and followed it with an 18
hour one. I don't want to do that again and will turn it down in future as
it badly affected me but the pay was good. I have a reputation for honesty
and good work where I live, too.

If you aren't fully incapacitated, you aren't too old and useless unless you
decide to be that or allow it to be the case. If people tell you that you
CANT do something, amuse them by agreeing then go and do it anyway. You'd be
amazed how many people are kept happy by being treated like idiots.
I. P. Freely - 26 Feb 2005 18:06 GMT
Whewwww!
I once had two bosses who expected us to work like that. The immediate
superior just EXPECTED it, HIS boss even ORDERED me to work 18 hour days for
two years. My reply was the same it has always been to tyrants like that:
"Go abuse someone else. If you need that much work done, go hire some more
people." I then cut back my usual 45ish hours a week to 40.0 hours except
when *I* determined more hours were really justified. It didn't help my
career, but it sure helped my self-esteem and my sanity. BTW, these bosses
were a Lt. Col and a Colonel, but we were in a New Mexico reasearch lab, not
a combat zone.

I.P.

> At that point I was working 8AM to 10PM no break, 5 days a week and 9AM to
> 4PM Saturdays and was starting to go crazy.
Clarence Crow - 26 Feb 2005 21:35 GMT
>> To pull the plug on this, what can I do?
>
>You can stop thinking in boxes.

You can think about boxes, but when you're in one, you can't think ;)

<snip>
/begin
"a lot of stuff about the writer's personal versatility and
accomplishments..."
/end
<snip>

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Gut-Buster - 28 Feb 2005 11:59 GMT
>>> To pull the plug on this, what can I do?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> /end
> <snip>

You ask for help and you answer like that? I hope your problems aren't small
ones!
Bob Taylor - 26 Feb 2005 15:36 GMT
I think going to work during treatment has a very positive effect, at least
in my case it did.  The oncologist that I see even encouraged me to work
during chemotherapy, which I was able to do 4 days a week.  Aside from
seeing supportive riends and colleagues on a daily basis, it is important to
feel you are able to make a contribution...  Also, it gets your mind off
your illness for a while.

> Hi again all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> -- CC
Clarence Crow - 01 Mar 2005 21:11 GMT
Hello again

Approximately a week ago I posted "at the crossroads", (about ceasing
work after a lifetime of it),to which I received quite a number of
different responses.

I then concluded that everyones' circumstances, (including mine),
would be different, and that no inspiration or solution could be
gleaned from the varied responses.

So I'm sorting myself out, taking Meds for my OA and still working
when I'm able.

I'll see what I feel like when I come out the other sides of RAD and
HDR Temp Brachytherapy, whilst still bearing the SEs of ADT for at
least another 12 months.

Thanks for all the responses and accompanying tales

.


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