Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2005
What physically happens? (RP)
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wwcp@infinet.com - 12 Feb 2005 16:12 GMT I absolutely love this ng and how informed you folks all are about PC - and, how well you all get along even when you disagree with each other.
However, I haven't read anything about what they physically do to us when they perform a RP. I'm not usually one to worry about what I don't have any control over, but now that I'm 3 months post-op and recovering (I guess), I would like to know what is still hurting and feeling uncomfortable in my belly - and, ?attached parts.?
I know they removed my prostate - and, because of this major ?gash? left in my belly, I'm relatively sure that it used to reside down in there, someplace. Further, because they could easily draw out prostate core samples from my butt - it must have been located right next to it. (OK, I'll admit that that old lady on late night TV ?Sex Talk? mentioned that a ?couple? times, too. But, I have no use for her, anymore? (lol) But, seriously, I have no idea what plumbing, nerves and muscles were severed, removed, reattached, stretched, etc and/or otherwise involved in the prostate removal. And, I think that knowledge would help this aging engineer understand what his current list of aches, pains, twinges, and ?inabilities? are, right now. (I AM going to ask my surgeon next week, but I'm pre-assuming that I'll get the "quick" answer...)
I'm sure the fine details change between surgeons, but there has to be some basic blueprint of what needed to be done.
Any suggestions as to where I can browse to find such info?? (Pictures would be very helpful?)
Paul
63 years old 09/04 - PSA 10.4 - Gleason 7 (will find out the split and location, and new PSA next week) 11/04 - RP - said they "got it" - spared left (or, right - forget which) nerves 2/05 - sore belly inside and out - no pee stopping/leaking problems (standing or sitting) - no erections (yet) - back to pretty vigorous exercise (light crunches, though) - kinda depressed about the obvious onset of "old age" - arg...
James A. Honeychuck - 12 Feb 2005 16:23 GMT The best set of illustrations of RP I have ever seen anywhere are in Dr. Walsh's Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer. Simple line drawings, but the most informative. Those drawings deserve an award.
jimhoney
> I absolutely love this ng and how informed you folks all are about PC - and, > how well you all get along even when you disagree with each other. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > exercise (light crunches, though) - kinda depressed about the obvious onset > of "old age" - arg... Bill - 12 Feb 2005 16:33 GMT Paul, I'm not going to detail everything because it is involved, but there are sites that show the anatomy and even videos of entire operations. But I think I understand what you are really asking so just let me say that the comfortable positions it took 62 years for your bladder, urethra, prostate, seminal vesicles, assorted viscera, vas deferens, nerves, veins, and, yes, penis to get into have been scrambled. The prostate that used to reside between your penis and bladder is now gone and the surgeon just yanked your urethra (and the internal penis attachment) up and sewed it to the bladder neck. It will take some time for everything to get re-situated and, in the meantime, you might feel things shifting around some when you change positions, and just strange sensations "down there." Don't worry about it; it's normal.
Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 Memphis
P.S. Hey, look what day it is!
Beverley - 12 Feb 2005 20:04 GMT First go to http://www.phoenix5.org and go look at the pictures of where the prostrate is located. It's located under the bladder above the scrotum and very close to the rectum - that's why they can feel it with a DRE.
Don't read this if you are queasy about surgical things. I'm not a nurse but I've had a few surgeries myself and many things are similar. So here's pretty much what I know about a regular RP.
They make an incision - either a bikini incision which follows the natural curve line under the tummy, slightly above the pubic bone. Or they make a nice big one from the belly button down to the bone. If your incision isn't exactly like one of those two don't worry about it. I think some docs just have their own favorite places to open in order to reach the abdominal cavity. Cutting the skin is easy, one sharp knife. Then the use a gizmo to hold the incision open so they can get inside. There is a nice layer of muscle which lays there like a tight bunch of ropes even if you aren't physically fit it's still some tight stuff - if it wasn't your insides would poke through (AKA hernia). So they have to pull that apart - they just find a spot and tear it open. Now they can see the bladder and your intestines. Intestines move around pretty easily so they just push them out of the way. That bladder is a different story; they just, sort of, flip it out through the hole they cut in your tummy and let it lie lay there on your tummy while they work. The problem is they really can't get that whole bladder out very well so they just do the best they can. Now they can see the prostate. With nerve sparing they can use some fancy goggles to see better and I think they can also use a stain to show the nerves. Ever see a vein in a piece of meat? Well, the urethra etc. runs through the prostate much the same way as a vein. So they cut the prostate out and when they do they also cut the urethra. You lose about an inch maybe more or less depending on the size of the prostate. They connect the two ends of the urethra. (Part of the reason something looks so short afterwards.) The prostate is almost glued to the base of the bladder so they really have to work to get it out or at least as much of it as possible. Removing the nerves they say is like trying to peel wet toilet paper off the prostate without destroying the paper. The vas deferens have to be re-attached to something so they drop them into bladder. Once they have to prostate out with a few assorted other parts and have everything re-attached. They also take a/few lymph nodes just to make sure all is well. Then the stuff the bladder back in and drop a few quick stitches here and there to hold the "guts" back in place and then they stitch/staple the skin.
What you wind up with is a traumatized bladder and lots of internal bruising. And often some external bruising too. They tend to rest their elbows and knees on you during surgery - no, not really, just kidding! But sometimes you can almost see a finger print bruise from where they worked on you. The intestines were pushed around, the tummy muscles were over-stretched, etc. Yes, you are going to be sore! Also no one is 25 years old anymore and healing takes a wee bit more time. You've had more things pulled and pushed around in there then you can imagine.
The body has a natural response to any injury, it sends in white blood cells to pad and protect the injury and fight infection. That's why there is swelling. And where does all this fluid go? Well, some of it drains into the sac containing the family jewels which is also why many men complain of pain and swelling. That's part of the reason they try to keep cold packs on you after surgery. The cold restricts the blood vessels in the area and keeps the swelling down. The smaller the blood vessels the less blood they can pump into the area.
And that is the thimble version. LOL Bev
> I absolutely love this ng and how informed you folks all are about PC - and, > how well you all get along even when you disagree with each other. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I know they removed my prostate - and, because of this major "gash" left in
> my belly, I'm relatively sure that it used to reside down in there, > someplace. Further, because they could easily draw out prostate core [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > engineer understand what his current list of aches, pains, twinges, and > "inabilities" are, right now. (I AM going to ask my surgeon next week, but
> I'm pre-assuming that I'll get the "quick" answer...) > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > exercise (light crunches, though) - kinda depressed about the obvious onset > of "old age" - arg... wwcp@infinet.com - 12 Feb 2005 22:02 GMT Barf..... (lol) Actually, Bev, I got through your explanation quite well - and, it was almost like I "was there." Well, in a way I guess I was... (lol)
Taking the advice of Jim and Bill, I went to the library today and even though the two books they suggested were "out" I did get one called "The Prostate Cancer Sourcebook" which did answer a bunch of my "geographical" questions. (I did put the other two on reserve, though.) However, it didn't get into the detail you just did here. Thanks so much. I can already understand where some of my "pains" are coming from.. Firstly, one to the touch (or, "hug") right in the middle of my belly and almost at the surface right under my scar (I've already approached Hollywood to see if I can star in a new gangster movie "Scar Belly" starring Paul Pacino.. lol) This is obviously where they slit that abdomen and duct taped it back together. However, that isn't the muscle that hurts (a little bit and a little less with time) when I do my "light" (very light) stomach crunches when I exercise. That one is deeper and way to the right of the scar and further up - almost under the bottom of my rib cage. Which is where they obviously placed their elbows (and, bar bell set) whilst attempting to "peel" my nerves off the outside of my prostate... (lol)
"With nerve sparing they can use some fancy goggles to see better and I think they can also use a stain to show the nerves."
You know when the doc was walking (well, shuffling) me through this procedure prior to the surgery I jokingly asked if it were similiar to my electronic/electrical field where we "color code" the wires.. He just smiled... and, ordered a new Porche... (I guess I was closer to the truth than I thought... 8^)
"Ever see a vein in a piece of meat?"
Oh, Bev, I just couldn't let this one go by... "Yep, I used to.... " (lol - I hope you have an extremely good sense of humor)
"You lose about an inch maybe more or less depending on the size of the prostate. They connect the two ends of the urethra. (Part of the reason something looks so short afterwards.) "
Boy, that answered that "little" question I had..
"The vas deferens have to be re-attached to something so they drop them into bladder."
You must have read my mind. I understand from this book I got today what they are and even though I'm sure there is no pain involved with them being attached to my bladder, it's still nice to know where "whatever" is being deposited when I do "finally" luck out and have a mini "new life" climax...
Speaking of which.... (maybe you should close your eyes at this point if you are queasy and let one of the guys help me out) I'm wondering why when I do finally luck out and have climax that my right testical starts hurting like crazy (almost like I got kicked there) and up a muscle or nerve or something extending up my right side for 4 or 5 inches... ?? It goes away after awhile, but it makes looking forward to "all that effort" less appealing...
Anyway, enuff of my babblin'... thanks, Bev, Jim, and Bill for your information,
Paul
63 years old 09/04 - PSA 10.4 - Gleason 7 (will find out the primary/secondary split, staging and location, and latest PSA next week) 11/04 - RP - said they "got it" - spared left (or, right - forget which) nerves 2/05 - sore belly inside and out - no pee stopping/leaking problems (standing or sitting) - no erections (yet) - back to pretty vigorous exercise (light crunches, though) - kinda depressed about the obvious onset of "old age" - arg...
m_spivack - 13 Feb 2005 18:11 GMT Something else to ask your uro. I travel by plane a great deal and am therefore subjet to metal detectors and wonds etc. so I asked if there was anything left inside after surgery. He said there were a "lot of stainless steel clamps and clips left in there". I have not been physiclly aware of them that I know of, and the meatla detectors have not been any more bothersome than they were pre surgery
I.P. Freely - 13 Feb 2005 22:16 GMT Tangential question: How will staples, even SS ones, react to an MRI? Isn't SS simply LESS responsive, not NON-responsive, to a magnetic field? We don't want to replay "Alien" in the MRI tube.
I.P.
. [my doc] said there were a "lot of
> stainless steel clamps and clips left in there". m_spivack - 14 Feb 2005 21:40 GMT Guess I'll ask my doc. OUCH to reenacting Aliens
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