Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2005
skewed newsgroup
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jhhtexas@ieee.org - 22 Jan 2005 06:16 GMT Is this newsgroup negatively skewed? My Partin tables show that I have a 98% chance of beating Pca based on my stats of negative margins, Gleason 6, PSA of 6.6 before RRP, etc. But reading the posts on the newsgroups, I seem to read mostly about people who end up with rising PSAs after treatment. My first PSA reading 3 months after RRP was 0.03. I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting?
James A. Honeychuck - 22 Jan 2005 07:33 GMT Yes, others who know statistics have made that same observation.
My numbers are just like yours. More than two years after my cure, I just hang around here to give newbees encouragement.
jimhoney
> Is this newsgroup negatively skewed? My Partin tables show that I have > a 98% chance of beating Pca based on my stats of negative margins, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Smiley - 22 Jan 2005 13:33 GMT And, even though my husband is "cured" I still learn a lot of stuff here that I pass on to him.
Thank you to everyone. And God Bless.
 Signature Kathy aka smiley
In God We Trust
> Yes, others who know statistics have made that same observation. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because >> successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Steve Kramer - 22 Jan 2005 13:34 GMT Oops! Forgot the ultruistic Jimhoney. And probably a few more.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> Yes, others who know statistics have made that same observation. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Steve Kramer - 22 Jan 2005 13:31 GMT IMHO, based on a few years involvement, there is probably a very good representation of people with PCa that come to this NG. However, I believe that people who are in your position tend to drop out after awhile, as do the ones who are very advanced.
The reasons seem obvious. There is only one reason you came to this NG. You or your loved one has PCa. There are only two reasons to stay. You need the support or you desire to support others.
People in the 98% range on the Partin Tables come in and get the support they need. Then, at some point, they ask themselves, "Do I need any more support?" Probably not, if you have only 2% of dying. Keep getting your PSA checked, but otherwise, get on with your life. Some might ask, "Can I provide support to others that are going to come looking for it." Well, yeah, you can, but it takes time, you can't help much past Dx and initial treatment, etc., etc. And then, what does that do to someone who is at 98% and constantly hears here of recurrences? So, most ... a vast majority I would say... drop out.
It seems too that most people, once they get bone mets drop out. Some, we just don't ever hear from again: Henry EV, Larry Pruess, BobKat, Linda Bloom, etc. Only a few hung in with us, but none to the very end. Martin stopped posting about 3 weeks before he died. Berky the Warrior signed off ashamed that he was no longer a warrior (BS!). Robert Young stopped posting because he didn't want the severity of his plight to negatively affect all those people he helped during his time with the NG.
So, what you end up with are the likely cured but ultruistic (Leonard, Curtis, Doc Williams, Hi Ho, JK, John Loomis, Bev, Mike H., Mr. Bill, ron, etc.) and those of us who either don't know or are pretty sure we still got the bastard inside us.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> Is this newsgroup negatively skewed? My Partin tables show that I have > a 98% chance of beating Pca based on my stats of negative margins, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Beverley - 23 Jan 2005 19:28 GMT I've been called a lot over the years but I think that is the first time I've been called ultruistic. (altruistic?) LOL
Yes, the group is skewed but most support groups are skewed. Most successful people do not stay here and continue to post! I try to stay out here because so many men have brachytherapy and just go on with their lives and never look back. For them the cancer becomes something they treated and it's over and done. They don't have many (or any) problems post seeding so they require little "support". I've tried to stay out here so that other men know that brachytherapy is available and it works!
And yes, I do hope that my husband will never see the return of PC. Bev
> IMHO, based on a few years involvement, there is probably a very good > representation of people with PCa that come to this NG. However, I believe [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Tom Cular - 23 Jan 2005 20:50 GMT Bev, Some of the insight and practical advice that came from you is priceless, the majority of folks here have gone the RRP route and their contributions are many, with very little being discussed about brachytherapy.
I also believe that an awful lot of men with this disease are reticent and wish to remain quiet, whereas if they had some other ailment, they might speak more freely. Tom
> I've been called a lot over the years but I think that is the first time > I've been called ultruistic. (altruistic?) LOL [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > > > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? I.P. Freely - 24 Jan 2005 21:46 GMT We gotta get these people to realize that it's just another body part. Prostate, elbow, penis, earlobe, testicles, lung . . . parts go south, folks. Deal with it directly, joke about it, discuss it, read about it (I've had strangers idly ask me, "Good book?" as I sit in an airport or a waiting room somewhere, reading. I just smile and say something like, "Fascinating, but it's a shame I have to read it" or "lousy plot, but highly relevant" and show 'em the cover of one of my half-dozen PC books. I'm probably going to surprise, maybe even shock, a few folks with my talk on PC to our homeowners' association next month, but if that's what it takes to open people up . . .
I..P.
"Tom Cular" <thomcu@verizon.net> wrote >
> I also believe that an awful lot of men with this disease are reticent and > wish to remain quiet, whereas if they had some other ailment, they might > speak more freely. Beverley - 25 Jan 2005 03:51 GMT Good job, IP, tell anyone who will listen. The more men know, the better! Bev
> We gotta get these people to realize that it's just another body part. > Prostate, elbow, penis, earlobe, testicles, lung . . . parts go south, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > wish to remain quiet, whereas if they had some other ailment, they might > > speak more freely. Steve Kramer - 26 Jan 2005 14:01 GMT I think the more women that know the better. Men don't go to the doctor on their own.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> Good job, IP, tell anyone who will listen. The more men know, the better! > Bev [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > wish to remain quiet, whereas if they had some other ailment, they might > > > speak more freely. I.P. Freely - 27 Jan 2005 01:12 GMT > I think the more women that know the better. Men don't go to the doctor on > their own. What a bunch of IDIOTS men are! Don't they know that "macho" is Spanish for "stupid"?
I run whining to a doctor everytime something doesn't feel 98% right for several days or something actually hurts for a day or two, unless I'm sure what's wrong and that I can fix it myself. I also get a general physical every year -- which caught two unrelated, advanced, aggressive cancers this time around. I've found and averted several worthwhile medical problems -- some potentially serious -- over the years. Anything less is, well, macho.
I.P.
Heather - 27 Jan 2005 03:02 GMT Pssssst......*macho* is a short form for *machismo*, and is spanish for *aggressively male*.
Descriptive term for female in any language is *incredibly intelligent* ......bwa ha ha!! Sorry....couldn't resist it.
Ms. Figueroa, playing *I Am Woman* on my computer 8-))
> > I think the more women that know the better. Men don't go to the doctor > on > > their own. > > What a bunch of IDIOTS men are! Don't they know that "macho" is Spanish for > "stupid"? Beverley - 27 Jan 2005 03:43 GMT ROTFLMAO Bev
> Pssssst......*macho* is a short form for *machismo*, and is spanish for > *aggressively male*. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > for > > "stupid"? Steve Kramer - 28 Jan 2005 02:22 GMT "Macho" is not a word I would use for man's predelection for not going to the doctor. I suppose rugged individualism is the primary culprit.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> > I think the more women that know the better. Men don't go to the doctor > on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I.P. JerryW - 29 Jan 2005 00:57 GMT How about "scaredy-cat" :-) We also don't stop to ask for directions!
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/18/05 PSA <0.1
> "Macho" is not a word I would use for man's predelection for not going to > the doctor. I suppose rugged individualism is the primary culprit. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> I.P. Steve Kramer - 24 Jan 2005 00:17 GMT Geez, my brain function sucks! Yes, altruistic.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> I've been called a lot over the years but I think that is the first time > I've been called ultruistic. (altruistic?) LOL Beverley - 25 Jan 2005 03:54 GMT Use the spell checker! That okay, I spelled 'mnemonic' as nemonic the other day and couldn't get it right to save my soul. Heck how was I supposed to remember there a silent M in the front of it?. Bev
> Geez, my brain function sucks! Yes, altruistic. > > > I've been called a lot over the years but I think that is the first time > > I've been called ultruistic. (altruistic?) LOL Marshall Schuon - 25 Jan 2005 08:28 GMT >Use the spell checker! That okay, I spelled 'mnemonic' as nemonic the other >day and couldn't get it right to save my soul. Heck how was I supposed to >remember there a silent M in the front of it?. >Bev ________
When I was a young reporter in Allentown, Pa., I wrote an obit about a woman who had been born in Czechoslovakia. I spelled it Chechoslovakia.
And I well remember the copy editor -- an old guy named Jim Eagle with amazing eyebrows that dangled down each side of his face -- bringing the obit back to me and saying that he wouldn't accept it until I spelled the country correctly. "Look it up!" he said.
Do you know how much time you can spend with a dictionary if you don't know that it is *CZ* ??? But I've never misspelled it since.
Marshall
Beverley - 25 Jan 2005 18:28 GMT I've always been a lousy speller. Some words just don't spell the way they sound. But my vocabulary as a child was unreal. I always had to look works up to write them so I'd get to reading the dictionary. If I thought it started with a P and I couldn't find it I'd start at the beginning of the P's and read until I found it. Then I'd have to start looking under the F's. So somehow in my journey I'd pick up a few new words. I remember teachers saying use the word in three sentences and the word will be yours. So when I hit an interesting word I'd make up three sentences using the word. Just don't ask me to spell it! LOL Bev
> >Use the spell checker! That okay, I spelled 'mnemonic' as nemonic the other > >day and couldn't get it right to save my soul. Heck how was I supposed to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Marshall JerryW - 26 Jan 2005 01:40 GMT Bev, sometimes even the spellchecker doesn't work (or is it word? :-))
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/17/05 PSA ???
> <snip> I always had to look works > up to write them so I'd get to reading the dictionary. <snip> > Bev <snip>>
>> <beverly.brown28@verizon.net> wrote: >> >> >Use the spell checker! <more snip> Beverley - 26 Jan 2005 02:59 GMT My biggest problem now is form/from, won/own, once/cone, etc. Fingers get going and things get transposed. LOL Bev
> Bev, sometimes even the spellchecker doesn't work (or is it word? :-)) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> > >> >Use the spell checker! <more snip> JerryW - 27 Jan 2005 01:04 GMT Ah then, maybe you've heard the rallying cry of the dyslexics???
"Dyslexics, Untie!"
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes 7/13/04 PSA <0.1 10/12/04 PSA <0.1 1/17/05 PSA ??? DAMN! I've got to call my Drs. office. It's been over a week.
> My biggest problem now is form/from, won/own, once/cone, etc. Fingers get > going and things get transposed. LOL [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> >> >> >Use the spell checker! <more snip> Steve Kramer - 26 Jan 2005 14:09 GMT Just another example of you having to suffer some other country's spelling mistake.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> >Use the spell checker! That okay, I spelled 'mnemonic' as nemonic the other > >day and couldn't get it right to save my soul. Heck how was I supposed to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Marshall Steve Kramer - 26 Jan 2005 14:03 GMT Yes ma'am.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> Use the spell checker! That okay, I spelled 'mnemonic' as nemonic the other > day and couldn't get it right to save my soul. Heck how was I supposed to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > I've been called a lot over the years but I think that is the first time > > > I've been called ultruistic. (altruistic?) LOL Danny McCarty - 24 Jan 2005 02:42 GMT >Subject: Re: skewed newsgroup >From: "Steve Kramer" skramer@cinci.rr.com >Date: 1/22/2005 7:31 AM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <bBsId.48166$re1.14096@fe2.columbus.rr.com> Ah, Steve, you left me out... And I've had bone mets, according to the scan, for a year, and two big lymph node mets were taken out a couple months ago. I feel great right now, with nothing but tylonal- at the end of my two week "vacation" from chemotherapy- next infusion day after tomorrow, that is the 25th, I think. Maybe the doctors are using me for a control and I don't really have cancer at all, wouldn't that be loverly.
>IMHO, based on a few years involvement, there is probably a very good >representation of people with PCa that come to this NG. However, I believe [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because >> successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Steve Kramer - 24 Jan 2005 17:01 GMT > Ah, Steve, you left me out... I most certainly left people out. Can't think of everyone. But, not you. You and I fall under the:
> >and those of us who either don't know or are pretty sure we still got > >the bastard inside us. Beverley - 25 Jan 2005 03:48 GMT Danny, you are one of the guys who make me hate PC so much! It always seems to want to take the really nice guys in this world and that is not fair. Keep up the battle because you are too nice to be forced to leave this world too soon. It's people like you who help to make the world a better place. Bev
> >Subject: Re: skewed newsgroup > >From: "Steve Kramer" skramer@cinci.rr.com [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >> I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > >> successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Danny McCarty - 28 Jan 2005 03:19 GMT >Subject: Re: skewed newsgroup >From: "Beverley" beverly.brown28@verizon.net >Date: 1/24/2005 9:48 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <bkjJd.13187$ef6.12552@trnddc07> ;-} ahh, shucks. Oh, the first two cycles of chemo this time have reduced my PSA by 60%, hoping the last cycle takes out the last 40%. Didn't recognize your screen name among my E-mail, so it went into the spam file, sorry. I actually get to see a couple of our compatriots, at the infusion center. One of them just visits, now. Lucky guy.
>Danny, you are one of the guys who make me hate PC so much! It always seems >to want to take the really nice guys in this world and that is not fair. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >> >> I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because >> >> successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? Leonard Evens - 22 Jan 2005 17:01 GMT > Is this newsgroup negatively skewed? My Partin tables show that I have > a 98% chance of beating Pca based on my stats of negative margins, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? I agree with Steve Kramer. It is called selection bias. People with uncomplicated cases tend not to be here in the first place or to drop out fairly early. That significantly increases the probability of seeing such cases here.
In addition, it is my impression that with very few exceptions, those who experience recurrence as indicated by PSA increase also had some adverse findings at diagnosis or in post surgical pathology. Even in such cases, the odds of a "cure" are often fairly high, but they wouldn't be as good as in your case.
Even so, you might end up being very unlucky and have a recurrence, either now or some time in the future. The odds of that happening aren't zero. But worrying about it doesn't make much sense since there isn't anything you can do about it now, and the odds are very much against it happening. Even if the odds were higher, it wouldn't make sense to worry until it did happen if it every did.
smu53@aol.com - 22 Jan 2005 22:34 GMT I'm in the 98% chance of <0.1psa at 7 years group too. I keep participating because it was very helpful to me when I was diagnosed and when I was early in the recovery phase, to be able to see what happened to other guys and how they handled it. Now maybe some of my suffering can benefit other guys. Steve
chuck - 23 Jan 2005 00:44 GMT True I'm not here as often as I used to be. Still undetectable PSA after 18 months. Feeling fine. I do trade e-mail with Curtis almost daily. He has the jokes that make me laugh. Right now I am trying to resolve sleep apnea and a hearing problem but otherwise stable... I hope that the rest of the group is doing well. Best of luck,
Chuck Harris.
I.P. Freely - 23 Jan 2005 02:35 GMT Well I know *I*'*M* screwed, what with Gleason 8 and Tc3 and another even nastier cancer waiting in line behind this one, so I hang around to try to learn more about my next options.
Oh . . . you said SKEWED. Never mind.
I.P.
> True I'm not here as often as I used to be. Still undetectable PSA > after 18 months. Feeling fine. I do trade e-mail with Curtis almost [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Chuck Harris. Rebecca Ford - 23 Jan 2005 23:50 GMT I mostly just lurk because Chris is doing great. I still like to check in to see how the regulars are doing, plus as one of the few women (and I believe the youngest to go through it with hubby) I want to be there to help the ohter women, if possible.
 Signature Rebecca Ford
> Is this newsgroup negatively skewed? My Partin tables show that I have > a 98% chance of beating Pca based on my stats of negative margins, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have my next reading in March. Is the negativity because because > successful treatment folks tend not to continue posting? keith340@webtv.net - 26 Jan 2005 12:18 GMT The proton guy is still around, posting occasionally....coming up on two years and terrific results...
Keith Lundy/So. California 40 Proton Beam Radiation Treatments Loma Linda Univ.Med Ctr..3/03-5/03
Steve Kramer - 26 Jan 2005 14:13 GMT I'm glad you stick around, Keith. You are our only proton guy. There was antoher as I recall, but I don't think we've heard from him in a year. Desert something....
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), Tic RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (4 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum
> The proton guy is still around, posting occasionally....coming up on two > years and terrific results... > > Keith Lundy/So. California > 40 Proton Beam Radiation Treatments > Loma Linda Univ.Med Ctr..3/03-5/03
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