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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2004

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My Doctor says PSA isnt a diagnostic thing for cancer !

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Dave in Lake Villa - 23 Nov 2004 00:52 GMT
Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
that early detection of Prostate Cancer is crucial . Then he tells me :"
PSA monitoring isnt used for diagnosis' .  

If there is a qualified Doctor in this DG,  i sure would like to get
your opinion on all this.  I was pretty set back by what my Doctor told
me.

Thanks, Dave
John K. H - 23 Nov 2004 01:20 GMT
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave

Find another doc.  Mine was detected on the basis of PSA.  I'm not alone in
that regard on this newsgroup :o)

John.
Marshall Schuon - 24 Nov 2004 07:46 GMT
>> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
>> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>John.
______

Mine too.  Would never have known otherwise.

Marshall
jimhoney - 23 Nov 2004 01:31 GMT
Find another doctor.  PSA monitoring led to diagnosis and cure of my case,
at age 52.

jimhoney
not a doctor, just a veteran of all this

> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave
Jack - 24 Nov 2004 19:51 GMT
I am new to all this.  I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it
shows a incline into the higher numbers.  Had some more blood test, and
now the doctor want me to come in for a biopsy in a few weeks. Naturally
I am concern, so I am following this list to learn about everything I
can in regards to Prostate cancer.

Jack
Stephen Jordan - 24 Nov 2004 20:33 GMT
>  I am new to all this.  I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it
> shows a incline into the higher numbers.  Had some more blood test, and
> now the doctor want me to come in for a biopsy in a few weeks. Naturally
> I am concern, so I am following this list to learn about everything I
> can in regards to Prostate cancer.

Jack has come to the right place. Wish I had done so a year ago when I
began this battle.

Why a biopsy? Did a DRE (digital rectal examination) discover a hard spot?

What is the PSA number?

What is Jack's age? General state of health?

A rise in PSA could be for reasons other than PCa, such as benign
prostate hyperplasia (BHP), infection, something else causing stress on
the prostate such as ejaculation, a DRE, some say bike riding, etc.

Lacking something more specific, I'd recommend consideration of having a
series of PSA tests to discover the trend. Or is that the "more blood
test(s)" to which Jack refers?

And there are other tests that help to complete the clinical picture.

If Jack proceeds with the biopsy, I cannot recommend too strongly that
he have a second pathological examination of the slides done by a
specialist. There are several around the country. If/when the time
comes, I'll be glad to name them for Jack.

Here are three of the many informative websites:

Prostate Cancer Research Institute http://prostate-cancer.org
Us Too! http://ustoo.com
Patients Helping Patients http://prostate-help.org

Above all, don't be rushed into a decision, as I was. Even if it is PCa,
there is time to study and make an *informed* decision.

And please keep us informed.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 21:28 GMT
My initial urologist starts right out by sending every biopsy he does
straight to Bostwick. That impressed me right out of the gate.

I.P.

"Stephen Jordan" <mycroftscj@earthlink.net> wrote >
> If Jack proceeds with the biopsy, I cannot recommend too strongly that he
> have a second pathological examination of the slides done by a specialist.
> There are several around the country.
Stephen Jordan - 24 Nov 2004 23:19 GMT
> My initial urologist starts right out by sending every biopsy he does
> straight to Bostwick. That impressed me right out of the gate.

Impressive, indeed.

I have had two biopsies; first in October 2003, which confirmed a Gleason
9 tumor in five of six cores. Then had cryo, which was only partially
successful. Had another biopsy in July 2004, which confirmed a Gleason 8
tumor on the other lobe, which had somehow been "missed" in the November
'03 cryo. That's another story for another time.

Point is: both biopsies were checked by the path lab at the hospital
where they were performed. It's too late for the first one, but the
results of the second (slides AND paraffin block) are going to Bostwick
even as I write. There are some further tests I might want done by Bostwick.

Strum strongly recommends a second opinion by a specialist on all biopsy
results, and includes Bostwick in his list.

I'm trying to play catch-up by doing some of the things that should have
been done before my first treatment, but weren't.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Danny McCarty - 25 Nov 2004 02:30 GMT
>Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer !
>From: Stephen Jordan mycroftscj@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>Steve J
>__
Oh, I have slowed to a camels pace. . . .
With a Gleason of 9 I'd want to see if there was capsular penetration, anything
in the seminal vesicals, anything in the margins or lymph nodes, and any
microscopic spread in the prostate itself.  Second readings rarely give a lower
Gleason.  9 is savage.  My onco says mine was 9.  
Stephen Jordan - 25 Nov 2004 03:11 GMT
On November 24, Danny McCarty replied to me:
(ka-snip)

> With a Gleason of 9 I'd want to see if there was capsular
penetration, anything
> in the seminal vesicals, anything in the margins or lymph nodes, and any
> microscopic spread in the prostate itself.  Second readings rarely give a lower
> Gleason.  9 is savage.  My onco says mine was 9.  

Savage, indeed.

So far, I have no symptoms but try not to fool myself.

The IMRT I concluded in mid-October included irradiating the seminal
vesicles and the nearby nodes.

The first biopsy (9/03), which was the Gleason 4+5=9 finding, also
indicated "perineural invasion." Something I've recently read says that
such a finding is not, without more, considered to be significant for
capsular penetration.

The tumor that was just attacked with IMRT is/was a Gleason 4+4=8. I'm
presently on ADT.

At no time has my PSA been >4.75, so it seems to me that PSA, standing
alone, does not tell us all about the nature of our tumor, which isn't
news. The DRE and the biopsy are so important.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Danny McCarty - 27 Nov 2004 02:06 GMT
>Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer !
>From: Stephen Jordan mycroftscj@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>such a finding is not, without more, considered to be significant for
>capsular penetration.

Which kind of biopsy are you speaking of?  The whole prostate and margins after
its removal? Needle biopsies usually don't tell you anything about perineural
invasion or capsular penatration.

>The tumor that was just attacked with IMRT is/was a Gleason 4+4=8. I'm
>presently on ADT.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Steve J
>__
Stephen Jordan - 02 Dec 2004 16:09 GMT
On November 26 (pardon the belated response), Danny McCarty inquired of me:
(ka-snip)

> Which kind of biopsy are you speaking of?  The whole prostate and margins after
> its removal? Needle biopsies usually don't tell you anything about perineural
> invasion or capsular penatration.

The first biopsy, September, 2003, was ten needles plus one through a
palpable hard spot, and disclosed Gleason 4+5 carcinoma in five of six
cores. Comment in the path report mentioned the perineural invasion.

My treatment was not RP, it was failed cryo followed by IMRT with ADT.

The Partin score gives me a 57% probability of capsular penetration. The
Sloan Kettering nomogram gives a 42% probability. I hope that SK is
closer to the fact.

Further details are in the "Cryo, what you need to know" thread, below.

Regards,

Steve J
Danny McCarty - 03 Dec 2004 17:19 GMT
>Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer !
>From: Stephen Jordan mycroftscj@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>palpable hard spot, and disclosed Gleason 4+5 carcinoma in five of six
>cores. Comment in the path report mentioned the perineural invasion.

One of the cores may have included a bit of the nerve where it is still in the
prostate.

>My treatment was not RP, it was failed cryo followed by IMRT with ADT.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Steve J
Stephen Jordan - 03 Dec 2004 20:24 GMT
Quoting me:

>>The first biopsy, September, 2003, was ten needles plus one through a
>>palpable hard spot, and disclosed Gleason 4+5 carcinoma in five of six
>>cores. Comment in the path report mentioned the perineural invasion.

He replied:

> One of the cores may have included a bit of the nerve where it is still in the
> prostate.

Could be; dunno. AIUI, what "perineural invasion" tells us is that the
nerve pathway is to some degree infected with PCa cells.

BTW and FWIW, the October IMRT and continued ADT appear to be effective.
My PSA on 11/22 was 0.1, lowest it's ever been. Of course, I know it's
mainly the result of the ADT. But it tells me that the ADT is, so far,
achieving its purpose.

Reason for the ADT is primarily the highly aggressive Gleason 8 carcinoma.

I'll have another PSA draw in March, followed by a progress evaluation
with my onc on March 31, with another Lupron implant.

At some point, probably late next year, I expect to cease ADT. We'll see
what happens.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Jack - 24 Nov 2004 22:30 GMT
Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak.
 First of all, I am 60 years of age.  My last reading for PSA was 5.
The doctor, a VA doctor did the rectal and found that to be normal.  He
ask to have a blood test, which defines the number better. Don't ask me
what that test was.   I can't remember, but if need be I could probably
ask again.  Anyway the blood test was not fairly good his nurse said,
and that the doctor wanted me to go for the biopsy.
The biopsy is schedule for dec 14.  I am seeing another doctor on dec
1st, one that deals with preventive medicine, and I will as her as she
is highly regarded in this town.    Guess now that the shock has worn
off, I better start taking some good notes.  At least for now, I am
asymptomatic, and if it wasn't for the PSA I wouldn't have known if
there was a problem.

Jack
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 23:29 GMT
PCa preventive medicine is aimed at preventing needless misery and death
from PCa, not preventing the PCa itself . . . right, guys? And isn't the
best preventive medicine (at his age and presuming good health otherwise)
PSA, biopsy when needed (it's time!), and prompt but not urgent treatment
(which COULD include even watchful waiting if he has a very low-grade, small
PCa)?

Suggestion (clear it with your urologist): take a Tylenol before the biopsy,
and make sure the doc dabs a blob of Lidocaine on the biopsy site before he
fires up the needles. With those, I doubt you'll even feel the biopsy . . .
certainly NOTHING like you'd expect from a dozen needles up the yeng-yeng.

I.P.

> Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak.
>  First of all, I am 60 years of age.  My last reading for PSA was 5.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jack
Stephen Jordan - 25 Nov 2004 00:40 GMT
(su-nip)
>  
> Suggestion (clear it with your urologist): take a Tylenol before the
> biopsy, and make sure the doc dabs a blob of Lidocaine on the biopsy
> site before he fires up the needles. With those, I doubt you'll even
> feel the biopsy . . . certainly NOTHING like you'd expect from a dozen
> needles up the yeng-yeng.

I demanded full anæsthesia for both my biopsies (I'm chicken, OK?). On
the first, the anæsthesiologist was reluctant because of a
funny/peculiar aortic valve. So had to make do with a local that was OK,
but nothing to write home about. For the second, I was more firm, got
it, and awoke in the recovery room just pleased as all getout, except
for the bloody mess from my poor abused li'l tallywhacker.

Patients have the *right* to pain relief.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Dear Lord, give me chastity and self-restraint ... but not yet, O Lord,
not yet!"
-- Saint Augustine

> I.P.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>> Jack
I.P. Freely - 25 Nov 2004 01:55 GMT
Have you tried the biopsy without ANY anesthesia? I'll bet you'd hardly
notice it. Colon nerves sense only distension, not pinching or cutting, and
the same may apply to the prostate, if my experience is any indication. But
then I take nothing for colonoscopies, either, for the same reason (and the
TV is quite interesting). I had to be as firm to persuade my doc to examine
my colon SANS anesthesia as you were to get your urologist to shoot your
prostate WITH anesthesia. We both came out pain-free, and didn't have to
give up the day of coherent thought a dose of anesthesia costs me.

I.P.

> (su-nip)
>>  Suggestion (clear it with your urologist): take a Tylenol before the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Patients have the *right* to pain relief.
Stephen Jordan - 24 Nov 2004 23:42 GMT
> ....First of all, I am 60 years of age.

OK, if Jack's health is otherwise good, and if the diagnosis is that he
has joined the club, he is probably young enough to have a wide choice
of treatments.

> My last reading for PSA was 5.

Not good, but not awful, either.

> The doctor, a VA doctor did the rectal and found that to be normal.

That could be good news, IF the medic is competent at it.

> He ask to have a blood test, which defines the number better. Don't ask me
> what that test was.   I can't remember, but if need be I could probably
> ask again.

Not only should Jack ask again, he should request a copy of the lab
report. He has a right to have it, and it's vital. Repeat: vital.

> Anyway the blood test was not fairly good his nurse said,
> and that the doctor wanted me to go for the biopsy.
> The biopsy is schedule for dec 14.  I am seeing another doctor on dec
> 1st, one that deals with preventive medicine, and I will as her as she
> is highly regarded in this town.    

What is the VA medic's specialty? This is important.

> Guess now that the shock has worn off, I better start taking some good
> notes.  At least for now, I am asymptomatic, and if it wasn't for the PSA
> I wouldn't have known if there was a problem.

Yes, take notes and get copies of *everything*. He has a legal right to
a copy of his chart. Build a file.

And read the books that are recommended elsethread, plus, especially, _A
Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide."
The author is Stephen B. Strum, MD, a medical oncologist. Strum takes
one step by step through the record-keeping process. If a PCa patient
follows his advice, he will indeed be *empowered* to manage his illness
and its treatment.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill

> Jack
Steve Kramer - 25 Nov 2004 01:44 GMT
Okay, then you've already had the Free PSA test and no headed to the biopsy.

From that you'll learn that you either have cancer or probably don't have
cancer (sometimes they miss the cancer with the first biopsy).

If you do have cancer, they will give you two more important stats; Gleason
Score (e.g., 3+3=6, 3+4=7, 4+3=7) and Stage (e.g., T1a, T2c, T3b).  These
are so important for treatment considerations that you might do well to have
the samples sent for a second opinion on the Gleason.

Most important, read, read and read some more.  It will be your decision and
right now it looks like all the options are available to you.  But, you'll
want to know what they each entail.

Three great references:

Dr. Patrick Walsh's Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer
Dr. Stephen Strum's A Primer on Prostate Cancer
www.phoenix5.org

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak.
>   First of all, I am 60 years of age.  My last reading for PSA was 5.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jack
Danny McCarty - 25 Nov 2004 02:41 GMT
>Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer !
>From: nickos@webtv.net  (Jack)
>Date: 11/24/2004 4:30 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <29080-41A50B77-571@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>

 I was 59 when my first PSA warning was 5.  One a week later was 10.4,
different labs. I still haven't -felt- any symptoms directly attirbutable to
PCa, even though I just had two lymph nodes taken out from just below my heart
that had PCa tumors in them, about a month ago.
The different test was probably a "free" PSA, which -SHOULD- come back -MORE-
THAN 25% if you are OK.
 The biopsy is an excellent idea.  Since the doc didn't try antibiotics or
something, the fPSA probably came back less than 25%.

>Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak.
>  First of all, I am 60 years of age.  My last reading for PSA was 5.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Jack
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 21:25 GMT
The minute my doc said it's time for a biopsy, I bought my first prostate
cancer book. Had I bought one 30 months earlier and caught my doctor's
errors sooner, I might have added 20 years to my life span. I highly
recommend that approach, because a BIG decision may be in the works, and it
may be big enough to require weeks of research, later if not now. I strongly
believe in being very involved in our health care, and until we've studied a
couple of books on PCa, we aren't of much use to ourselves in this issue.
It's $15-40 very well spent, IMO. Start by reading the chapter on PSA right
there in the bookstore; that alone may hook you on the topic. Walsh's "Guide
to Surviving Prostate Cancer" is particularly easy to skim, just by reading
the shaded "Read this first" section at the beginning of each chapter. And
"PC for Dummies" is not a lightweight book; it's excellent.

I.P.

> I am new to all this.  I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it
> shows a incline into the higher numbers.  Had some more blood test, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jack
Steve Kramer - 25 Nov 2004 01:31 GMT
Well, you've come to the right place.

Without further data, it may be that you have benign prostate problems which
are treatable with Cipro, et al.  Or, depending on the rate of the rise in
PSA, your doc might send you for a "Free PSA" test.  Then, if it still looks
like cancer is the more likely, it's off to the doctor's office for a
biopsy.

Then, there is a flurry of activity that is best left to after you've seen
your biopsy results.

We wish you well.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> I am new to all this.  I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it
> shows a incline into the higher numbers.  Had some more blood test, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jack
I.P. Freely - 25 Nov 2004 02:02 GMT
Well put. MAN, was I as busy as a bloodhound in a sausage factory after the
doc said, "Congratulations; you have prostate cancer". Busy, because I was
trying to compress the normal pace of all those tests from months to weeks
once I knew I had an aggressive form of cancer . . . heck, TWO aggressive
forms of cancer, but that's another story. But once I realized how complex
PCa and its decisions are, I could barely keep up my reading in time to
prepare my sets of questions for each doctor visit. It all paid off.

I.P.

"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote >
> There is a flurry of activity that is best left to after you've seen
> your biopsy results.
c palmer - 23 Nov 2004 01:35 GMT
hi dave - your doctor just turned into a time piece and told you it's
time to get a new doctor.  

he is either out of touch with his practice or hasn't kept up with one
of the most common cancers of the human male.  what i stated is a fact
and not of opinion.

i, too, had my cancer discovered by the psa test.  the DRE never was
positive and it was last performed just hours before the surgery, but
yet, the path report showed the prostate gland was full of pca cells.  

having said that - my question back to you is this - would you put your
trust in a person who doesn't believe in a tool that is used in the
detection of pca.  the psa test is nothing more than that - a test.  it
is one of other tests that can be ran to help confirm pca, or at least
trigger a biopsy.  

this doctor's idea reminds me of what my father said when i told him of
my mother-in-law having pain from pancreatic cancer.  his words
were......"aw, cancer doesn't hurt!!!"

well, five years later, he found out different.

i wonder what he would say if you had a psa of 2000?   "don't worry
about it, because this psa test isn't used to diagnose you?"  "it
doesn't prove you have pca?"  

another question i would asked myself, "would he treat his own father
like this?"  

if that answer is "yes!"
run - to walk - to a doctor that takes psa testing seriously

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Stephen Jordan - 23 Nov 2004 01:48 GMT
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> your opinion on all this.  I was pretty set back by what my Doctor told
> me.

Dave's doctor is an ignorant fool.

Suggest that Dave fire him and consult a medic who is familiar with the
real world.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not
sure about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein
philski - 23 Nov 2004 02:01 GMT
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave

Find another doctor - better yet, schedule a visit to a urologist. Get
your PSA checked! My pCa was found through a rise in my PSA. And it was
found early. BTW, I am 58 now. You are at the age a regular PSA checkup
is necessitated. And hopefully, you will be fine. Typically, 1 in 6 men
end up with prostate cancer. That number changes dramatically as men
age. Hopefully, you will have normal returns. Early detection is in you
best interest and being 50, heck - yer a proverbial youngster huh?!

Philski
John Loomis - 23 Nov 2004 02:08 GMT
Point 7 on the PSA test.....signifies follow up.
Point 3.5 may also indicate....followup
Are you sure your Dr. is not checking the brake fluid in you car?
Find one that can check your PSA.
I was diagnosed when 49......What For?
Good wishes, fire the Dr.
John Loomis
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave
I.P. Freely - 23 Nov 2004 02:47 GMT
My doc at least measured my PSA, but then he ignored it even though it was
at alarm levels. That 2.5-year delay may be the reason my PCa invaded my
seminal vesicles, which in turn significantly raises the odds my PC will
return (after surgery) to kill me. It could be argued that the idiot may
have taken a decade or two of robust, vigorous, athletic life from me. I
have changed doctors and filed a complaint with his local management, and
will file a formal complaint with the regional VA headquarters.

In your case, I'd fire your doctor, find one who has read something besides
TV Guide and Porsche Magazine since medical school, get my PSA measured, and
decide where to go based on it -- repeat test, earlier test next time,
biopsy, etc. In the meantime, go to a bookstore, find any recent book on
prostate cancer, and read the chapter on PSA evaluation. You'll learn many
useful things, but two will stand out:
1. Your doc is partially right. PSA alone does not DIAGNOSE PCa, because it
can provide false positives and false negatives. But PSA is the earliest PCa
warning flag available at present, PSA w/digital rectal exam is better yet
but can still miss an important cancer, a simple biopsy can resolve most PSA
alarms, and the earlier we detect it the more likely it is to be completely
curable.
2. At 50 you're behind the PSA test power curve. In light of modern data,
many experts now want to see PSA testing begin at 35. It  costs next to
nothing (it's just an extra box checked on your annual physical blood draw),
false alarms are easily investigated with other tests, and you can't
discover PCa too early as long as you don't overreact to an early,
low-grade, small PCa.

You don't need no steenkin' doctor to be convinced of this; there's a
chapter on it in every prostate cancer book written in the past decade.

I.P.

> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave
Danny McCarty - 23 Nov 2004 04:36 GMT
>Subject: My Doctor says PSA isnt a diagnostic thing for cancer !
>From: DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net  (Dave in Lake Villa)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Thanks, Dave

It isn't diagnostic- it tells you when to get a biopsy, which is diagnostic.
Insist on it, and insist on being told the number, nanograms per milliter.  Or
get another doctor.  Boy, I love to be arrogant sometimes!
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 23 Nov 2004 12:34 GMT
>It isn't diagnostic- it tells you when to get a biopsy, which is diagnostic.
>Insist on it, and insist on being told the number, nanograms per milliter.  Or
>get another doctor.  Boy, I love to be arrogant sometimes!

 I'm not sure about "arrogant", but I am sure about the chilling
horror of some guy with a medical degree and a license out there
telling men not to get their PSA tested!   What a world.  
Dave - 23 Nov 2004 08:02 GMT
If I hadn't had mine checked...who knows?  It may not be a dignostic for
PCa but it sure as hell is an indicator to see if further tests are
required, biopsy etc.

Get him to do it or get another Dr.

I guess if you've read this far you've got the message by now.

Good luck

Dave
Dec 03 Age 51, PSA 10.8
Jan 04 Dx PCa T2a Gleason 5
Mar 04 RRP, post op path good, all contained
May 04 cystoscopy & BNI now pi**ing like racehorse
PSA June < 0.01
PSA Nov < 0.01

> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave
Dave in Lake Villa - 23 Nov 2004 12:34 GMT
Thank you all for y our suggestions and info. Ill get it done for SURE !  

Thanks much, Dave
I.P. Freely - 23 Nov 2004 20:07 GMT
These weren't SUGGESTIONS; they were 2x4s. Hope they didn't leave a lump on
your noggin! ;-)
The lump belongs on that quack doctor.
The moment I realized my doc had ignored my alarming PSA for 30 months, I
quizzed him on a couple of other very basic medical issues in my life and
treated (or non-treated) by him. The idiot failed three such tests out of
three in three minutes, and will never see my face again unless I'm
testifying against him in a medical competency hearing.

I.P.

> Thank you all for y our suggestions and info. Ill get it done for SURE !
>
> Thanks much, Dave
Leonard Evens - 23 Nov 2004 21:42 GMT
> Thank you all for y our suggestions and info. Ill get it done for SURE !  
>
> Thanks much, Dave

Dave,

You seem to have been caught in the middle of a scientific dispute.
Some physicians believe that routine PSA testing is not merited.  They
will argue that no suitably randomized test has yet shown that routine
PSA screening for prostate cancer, on the average, saves many lives.
They will also argue that PSA can rise for a variety of reason, so there
are lots of false positives.  Also, you can have prostate cancer without
having an abnormal PSA.  (The non-specificity of the test is really
irrelevant since it is the ensuing biopsy that really tells you if you
have prostate cancer.)  They will also argue that while any man in the
US has about a one in six chance of being diagnosed with prostate cancer
in his lifetime,  only about one in six of those men actually die of it.

Urologists, who specialize in diseases of the prostate among other
things, almost all would recommend the use of PSA screening and the
treatment of many, but not all, cases of prostate cancer that are
detected thereby.  They also have very strong arguments for their
position, which I won't go into at this point.

So, what are you to do as a layman?   First, I agree with the others
that you should get another doctor.  At the very least, your doctor
should have explained the controversy to you and referred you to other
sources of information which would allow you to understand the issues.
Then he should have left it up to you to decide what to do.  On an issue
as important as this,  he shouldn't have hidden anything from you by
telling you something as if it were universally agreed upon by the
entire medical community.

Now, the next question is whether or not you should have PSA screening.
  If you were over 75, it might not be so clear.  Many prostate cancers
are very slow growing and might never bother you doing your lifetime.
One of the reasons relatively few men diagnosed with prostate cancer
actually die of it is that the great bulk of such men are older and die
of other causes first.  But at your age, my personal opinion is that PSA
testing is a good idea.  Were you to develop prostate cancer in the next
10 or 15 years, there is a strong chance it would metastasize, if
untreated, and you would suffer from advanced prostate cancer.  That is
a very unpleasant disease, and at present, the treatments for it are
somewhat limited and have very serious side effects.  In addition, there
is a good chance you would die of the disease before your time.  The
counter argument is that PSA testing might uncover a relatively benign
cancer which you would feel obligated to have treated.  The treatment
might produce incontinence and impotence.  (Serious incontinence is not
too likely if you are treated by a competent doctor.  Impotence is more
likely but in relatively young men, there is an excellent chance it can
be avoided, and in any event it can be treated.)  So you would have had
treatment you didn't need and you might have to live with some problems
resulting from it.   If someone could tell you in advance just which of
these things would actually happen,  the decision would be easy.
Unfortunately, right now no one can.

Faced with these choices, those of us here, including me, clearly opted
for treating our cancers rather than taking the chance that they might
be innocuous.
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 23 Nov 2004 12:30 GMT
First of all, get your PSA tested.  Do you have a family history of
the disease?  If so, you should have started ten years ago.

Second, strictly speaking your doctor may be correct.  The PSA is a
screening test.  It cannot "diagnose" cancer.  There are other reasons
for elevated PSA.  The false positives used to be the major knock on
the test.  Five years ago there was no PSA Free test to do as a follow
up.  The only option was the biopsy.  The examination of the biopsy
specimens is where the diagnosis comes in.  Of course, even that is
not foolproof.  Sometimes the cancer is missed in the biopsy, so a
clean path reports doesn't mean that you still do not have cancer.
Such is the wonderful confusing world of PCa.

Get that test done and have it every year.  Tell your doctor he needs
to get his PSA tested, along with some continuing education hours.

Thank you.
David S.  

>Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
>my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Thanks, Dave
Steve Kramer - 23 Nov 2004 21:40 GMT
You don't come to newgroups for qualified doctors.  You find a qualified
doctor and pay $60 for a second opinion.

Here, you will find that a preponderance of members in this club consider
the possibility that they are still alive due to diagnoses largely related
to, if not absolutely because of, PSA.

The current 'gold standard' is that beginning at 50 you get annual PSA tests
and DRE (digitial rectal examination).  If either is amiss, you get a
biopsy, or at least you find out what's wrong with your prostate.

Your doctor, unless he knows more that the few hundred experienced patients
assembled here, needs to do a better job keeping up with medicine.

You need a PSA test!

That'll be $60.00.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring
> my PSA , annually.   He says :'What for !?'  . I told him i understand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks, Dave
David  S. - 24 Nov 2004 01:36 GMT
$60.00??

Last week the plumber charged me $79.00 to arrive at the door!

Your rates are too low Steve.

> You don't come to newgroups for qualified doctors.  You find a qualified
> doctor and pay $60 for a second opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>> Thanks, Dave
Steve Kramer - 24 Nov 2004 07:45 GMT
I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> $60.00??
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> >>
> >> Thanks, Dave
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 24 Nov 2004 12:46 GMT
ROFL!!   Good one.    

>I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>> >>
>> >> Thanks, Dave
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 17:26 GMT
Now yer hittin' close to home. I was at first surprised how many -- and how
casually -- gaggles of people waltzed into my recovery ward room and yanked
back the sheet to examine my plumbing (because of the heat, all I wore to
bed was the catheter and the stockings).

I.P.

> I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing.
Steve Kramer - 24 Nov 2004 18:47 GMT
Yup, it's right about "Recovery" where you lose all hope of modesty for the
rest of your life.  Well, maybe not for the rest of your life.  I guess if
you don't have to go through EBRT, you become continent and potent, you
regain some of the modesty once lost.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> Now yer hittin' close to home. I was at first surprised how many -- and how
> casually -- gaggles of people waltzed into my recovery ward room and yanked
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> > I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing.
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 19:26 GMT
It got to the point after a few peep shows that I was tempted to flash the
hallway as a  "what the hell" jest, if I had thought they'd get the joke.
And after carrying and/or wearing "the bag" for a week, I didn't even give
no never-mind about CARRYING my big/overnight bag into a drugstore to fill a
prescription after the ER discarded my walking bag and had only big bags to
send me home with. Amazin' what a little life-treatening problem will do for
our perspectives about what's actualy IMPORTANT.

I.P.

> Yup, it's right about "Recovery" where you lose all hope of modesty for
> the
> rest of your life.  Well, maybe not for the rest of your life.  I guess if
> you don't have to go through EBRT, you become continent and potent, you
> regain some of the modesty once lost.
Ernest Gudath - 24 Nov 2004 12:23 GMT
Maybe that's why he gave up his medical practice and went into plumbing.

> $60.00??
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>>>
>>> Thanks, Dave
C. Paul Williams, MD - 24 Nov 2004 13:49 GMT
PSA testing is far from perfect, but combined with a digital rectal
exam it's the best non invasive detection method we've got.  Your
doctor is correct that the PSA is not diagnostic.  Many conditions can
elevate the PSA level.  That said, however, the PSA is a crucial red
flag which justifies proceeding to more invasive tests (biopsy).  I
would have to disagree with your physician.  Current national testing
guidelines recommend PSA testing annually starting at age 50.  Those
with a family history should be tested starting at age 40.  My PSA was
elevated slightly at age 46.  Biopsy revealed a Gleason 3+3
malignancy.  My father was dianosed at age 72.  My sons will begin PSA
testing at age 36 (10 years younger than my age at diagnosis).
Good luck.  Your request was very appropriate.  I would suggest having
your doctor review national testing guidelines.  If he or she still
balks at testing, it may be time to consider a change.
CPW
Steve Kramer - 24 Nov 2004 18:45 GMT
Thanks again, Doc, for sticking around.

I think your creds added a significant weight to this thread.

BTW, how are YOU doing with your PSA.  I don't recall a recent report.  All
okay?

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> PSA testing is far from perfect, but combined with a digital rectal
> exam it's the best non invasive detection method we've got.  Your
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> balks at testing, it may be time to consider a change.
> CPW
C. Paul Williams, MD - 25 Nov 2004 12:37 GMT
> BTW, how are YOU doing with your PSA.  I don't recall a recent report.  All
> okay?

Thanks, Steve.  My two year post op PSA is still undetectable with
another 6 month draw coming up in December.  My PSA anxiety is a
little easier to bear than most of you guys, however.  I don't have to
wait to hear the result from my doctor...I log into the hospital
information system and usually know within about 4 hours of my blood
draw.
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
CPW
Steve Kramer - 26 Nov 2004 04:46 GMT
It's good to have connections.  Glad to hear of your scores.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> > BTW, how are YOU doing with your PSA.  I don't recall a recent report.  All
> > okay?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
> CPW
 
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