Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2004
My Doctor says PSA isnt a diagnostic thing for cancer !
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Dave in Lake Villa - 23 Nov 2004 00:52 GMT Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand that early detection of Prostate Cancer is crucial . Then he tells me :" PSA monitoring isnt used for diagnosis' .
If there is a qualified Doctor in this DG, i sure would like to get your opinion on all this. I was pretty set back by what my Doctor told me.
Thanks, Dave
John K. H - 23 Nov 2004 01:20 GMT > Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave Find another doc. Mine was detected on the basis of PSA. I'm not alone in that regard on this newsgroup :o)
John.
Marshall Schuon - 24 Nov 2004 07:46 GMT >> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring >> my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >John. ______
Mine too. Would never have known otherwise.
Marshall
jimhoney - 23 Nov 2004 01:31 GMT Find another doctor. PSA monitoring led to diagnosis and cure of my case, at age 52.
jimhoney not a doctor, just a veteran of all this
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave Jack - 24 Nov 2004 19:51 GMT I am new to all this. I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it shows a incline into the higher numbers. Had some more blood test, and now the doctor want me to come in for a biopsy in a few weeks. Naturally I am concern, so I am following this list to learn about everything I can in regards to Prostate cancer.
Jack
Stephen Jordan - 24 Nov 2004 20:33 GMT > I am new to all this. I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it > shows a incline into the higher numbers. Had some more blood test, and > now the doctor want me to come in for a biopsy in a few weeks. Naturally > I am concern, so I am following this list to learn about everything I > can in regards to Prostate cancer. Jack has come to the right place. Wish I had done so a year ago when I began this battle.
Why a biopsy? Did a DRE (digital rectal examination) discover a hard spot?
What is the PSA number?
What is Jack's age? General state of health?
A rise in PSA could be for reasons other than PCa, such as benign prostate hyperplasia (BHP), infection, something else causing stress on the prostate such as ejaculation, a DRE, some say bike riding, etc.
Lacking something more specific, I'd recommend consideration of having a series of PSA tests to discover the trend. Or is that the "more blood test(s)" to which Jack refers?
And there are other tests that help to complete the clinical picture.
If Jack proceeds with the biopsy, I cannot recommend too strongly that he have a second pathological examination of the slides done by a specialist. There are several around the country. If/when the time comes, I'll be glad to name them for Jack.
Here are three of the many informative websites:
Prostate Cancer Research Institute http://prostate-cancer.org Us Too! http://ustoo.com Patients Helping Patients http://prostate-help.org
Above all, don't be rushed into a decision, as I was. Even if it is PCa, there is time to study and make an *informed* decision.
And please keep us informed.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 21:28 GMT My initial urologist starts right out by sending every biopsy he does straight to Bostwick. That impressed me right out of the gate.
I.P.
"Stephen Jordan" <mycroftscj@earthlink.net> wrote >
> If Jack proceeds with the biopsy, I cannot recommend too strongly that he > have a second pathological examination of the slides done by a specialist. > There are several around the country. Stephen Jordan - 24 Nov 2004 23:19 GMT > My initial urologist starts right out by sending every biopsy he does > straight to Bostwick. That impressed me right out of the gate. Impressive, indeed.
I have had two biopsies; first in October 2003, which confirmed a Gleason 9 tumor in five of six cores. Then had cryo, which was only partially successful. Had another biopsy in July 2004, which confirmed a Gleason 8 tumor on the other lobe, which had somehow been "missed" in the November '03 cryo. That's another story for another time.
Point is: both biopsies were checked by the path lab at the hospital where they were performed. It's too late for the first one, but the results of the second (slides AND paraffin block) are going to Bostwick even as I write. There are some further tests I might want done by Bostwick.
Strum strongly recommends a second opinion by a specialist on all biopsy results, and includes Bostwick in his list.
I'm trying to play catch-up by doing some of the things that should have been done before my first treatment, but weren't.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Danny McCarty - 25 Nov 2004 02:30 GMT >Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer ! >From: Stephen Jordan mycroftscj@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Steve J >__ Oh, I have slowed to a camels pace. . . . With a Gleason of 9 I'd want to see if there was capsular penetration, anything in the seminal vesicals, anything in the margins or lymph nodes, and any microscopic spread in the prostate itself. Second readings rarely give a lower Gleason. 9 is savage. My onco says mine was 9.
Stephen Jordan - 25 Nov 2004 03:11 GMT On November 24, Danny McCarty replied to me: (ka-snip)
> With a Gleason of 9 I'd want to see if there was capsular penetration, anything
> in the seminal vesicals, anything in the margins or lymph nodes, and any > microscopic spread in the prostate itself. Second readings rarely give a lower > Gleason. 9 is savage. My onco says mine was 9. Savage, indeed.
So far, I have no symptoms but try not to fool myself.
The IMRT I concluded in mid-October included irradiating the seminal vesicles and the nearby nodes.
The first biopsy (9/03), which was the Gleason 4+5=9 finding, also indicated "perineural invasion." Something I've recently read says that such a finding is not, without more, considered to be significant for capsular penetration.
The tumor that was just attacked with IMRT is/was a Gleason 4+4=8. I'm presently on ADT.
At no time has my PSA been >4.75, so it seems to me that PSA, standing alone, does not tell us all about the nature of our tumor, which isn't news. The DRE and the biopsy are so important.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Danny McCarty - 27 Nov 2004 02:06 GMT >Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer ! >From: Stephen Jordan mycroftscj@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >such a finding is not, without more, considered to be significant for >capsular penetration. Which kind of biopsy are you speaking of? The whole prostate and margins after its removal? Needle biopsies usually don't tell you anything about perineural invasion or capsular penatration.
>The tumor that was just attacked with IMRT is/was a Gleason 4+4=8. I'm >presently on ADT. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Steve J >__ Stephen Jordan - 02 Dec 2004 16:09 GMT On November 26 (pardon the belated response), Danny McCarty inquired of me: (ka-snip)
> Which kind of biopsy are you speaking of? The whole prostate and margins after > its removal? Needle biopsies usually don't tell you anything about perineural > invasion or capsular penatration. The first biopsy, September, 2003, was ten needles plus one through a palpable hard spot, and disclosed Gleason 4+5 carcinoma in five of six cores. Comment in the path report mentioned the perineural invasion.
My treatment was not RP, it was failed cryo followed by IMRT with ADT.
The Partin score gives me a 57% probability of capsular penetration. The Sloan Kettering nomogram gives a 42% probability. I hope that SK is closer to the fact.
Further details are in the "Cryo, what you need to know" thread, below.
Regards,
Steve J
Danny McCarty - 03 Dec 2004 17:19 GMT >Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer ! >From: Stephen Jordan mycroftscj@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >palpable hard spot, and disclosed Gleason 4+5 carcinoma in five of six >cores. Comment in the path report mentioned the perineural invasion. One of the cores may have included a bit of the nerve where it is still in the prostate.
>My treatment was not RP, it was failed cryo followed by IMRT with ADT. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Steve J Stephen Jordan - 03 Dec 2004 20:24 GMT Quoting me:
>>The first biopsy, September, 2003, was ten needles plus one through a >>palpable hard spot, and disclosed Gleason 4+5 carcinoma in five of six >>cores. Comment in the path report mentioned the perineural invasion. He replied:
> One of the cores may have included a bit of the nerve where it is still in the > prostate. Could be; dunno. AIUI, what "perineural invasion" tells us is that the nerve pathway is to some degree infected with PCa cells.
BTW and FWIW, the October IMRT and continued ADT appear to be effective. My PSA on 11/22 was 0.1, lowest it's ever been. Of course, I know it's mainly the result of the ADT. But it tells me that the ADT is, so far, achieving its purpose.
Reason for the ADT is primarily the highly aggressive Gleason 8 carcinoma.
I'll have another PSA draw in March, followed by a progress evaluation with my onc on March 31, with another Lupron implant.
At some point, probably late next year, I expect to cease ADT. We'll see what happens.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Jack - 24 Nov 2004 22:30 GMT Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak. First of all, I am 60 years of age. My last reading for PSA was 5. The doctor, a VA doctor did the rectal and found that to be normal. He ask to have a blood test, which defines the number better. Don't ask me what that test was. I can't remember, but if need be I could probably ask again. Anyway the blood test was not fairly good his nurse said, and that the doctor wanted me to go for the biopsy. The biopsy is schedule for dec 14. I am seeing another doctor on dec 1st, one that deals with preventive medicine, and I will as her as she is highly regarded in this town. Guess now that the shock has worn off, I better start taking some good notes. At least for now, I am asymptomatic, and if it wasn't for the PSA I wouldn't have known if there was a problem.
Jack
I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 23:29 GMT PCa preventive medicine is aimed at preventing needless misery and death from PCa, not preventing the PCa itself . . . right, guys? And isn't the best preventive medicine (at his age and presuming good health otherwise) PSA, biopsy when needed (it's time!), and prompt but not urgent treatment (which COULD include even watchful waiting if he has a very low-grade, small PCa)?
Suggestion (clear it with your urologist): take a Tylenol before the biopsy, and make sure the doc dabs a blob of Lidocaine on the biopsy site before he fires up the needles. With those, I doubt you'll even feel the biopsy . . . certainly NOTHING like you'd expect from a dozen needles up the yeng-yeng.
I.P.
> Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak. > First of all, I am 60 years of age. My last reading for PSA was 5. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Jack Stephen Jordan - 25 Nov 2004 00:40 GMT (su-nip)
> > Suggestion (clear it with your urologist): take a Tylenol before the > biopsy, and make sure the doc dabs a blob of Lidocaine on the biopsy > site before he fires up the needles. With those, I doubt you'll even > feel the biopsy . . . certainly NOTHING like you'd expect from a dozen > needles up the yeng-yeng. I demanded full anæsthesia for both my biopsies (I'm chicken, OK?). On the first, the anæsthesiologist was reluctant because of a funny/peculiar aortic valve. So had to make do with a local that was OK, but nothing to write home about. For the second, I was more firm, got it, and awoke in the recovery room just pleased as all getout, except for the bloody mess from my poor abused li'l tallywhacker.
Patients have the *right* to pain relief.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Dear Lord, give me chastity and self-restraint ... but not yet, O Lord, not yet!" -- Saint Augustine
> I.P. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Jack I.P. Freely - 25 Nov 2004 01:55 GMT Have you tried the biopsy without ANY anesthesia? I'll bet you'd hardly notice it. Colon nerves sense only distension, not pinching or cutting, and the same may apply to the prostate, if my experience is any indication. But then I take nothing for colonoscopies, either, for the same reason (and the TV is quite interesting). I had to be as firm to persuade my doc to examine my colon SANS anesthesia as you were to get your urologist to shoot your prostate WITH anesthesia. We both came out pain-free, and didn't have to give up the day of coherent thought a dose of anesthesia costs me.
I.P.
> (su-nip) >> Suggestion (clear it with your urologist): take a Tylenol before the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Patients have the *right* to pain relief. Stephen Jordan - 24 Nov 2004 23:42 GMT > ....First of all, I am 60 years of age. OK, if Jack's health is otherwise good, and if the diagnosis is that he has joined the club, he is probably young enough to have a wide choice of treatments.
> My last reading for PSA was 5. Not good, but not awful, either.
> The doctor, a VA doctor did the rectal and found that to be normal. That could be good news, IF the medic is competent at it.
> He ask to have a blood test, which defines the number better. Don't ask me > what that test was. I can't remember, but if need be I could probably > ask again. Not only should Jack ask again, he should request a copy of the lab report. He has a right to have it, and it's vital. Repeat: vital.
> Anyway the blood test was not fairly good his nurse said, > and that the doctor wanted me to go for the biopsy. > The biopsy is schedule for dec 14. I am seeing another doctor on dec > 1st, one that deals with preventive medicine, and I will as her as she > is highly regarded in this town. What is the VA medic's specialty? This is important.
> Guess now that the shock has worn off, I better start taking some good > notes. At least for now, I am asymptomatic, and if it wasn't for the PSA > I wouldn't have known if there was a problem. Yes, take notes and get copies of *everything*. He has a legal right to a copy of his chart. Build a file.
And read the books that are recommended elsethread, plus, especially, _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide." The author is Stephen B. Strum, MD, a medical oncologist. Strum takes one step by step through the record-keeping process. If a PCa patient follows his advice, he will indeed be *empowered* to manage his illness and its treatment.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
> Jack Steve Kramer - 25 Nov 2004 01:44 GMT Okay, then you've already had the Free PSA test and no headed to the biopsy.
From that you'll learn that you either have cancer or probably don't have cancer (sometimes they miss the cancer with the first biopsy).
If you do have cancer, they will give you two more important stats; Gleason Score (e.g., 3+3=6, 3+4=7, 4+3=7) and Stage (e.g., T1a, T2c, T3b). These are so important for treatment considerations that you might do well to have the samples sent for a second opinion on the Gleason.
Most important, read, read and read some more. It will be your decision and right now it looks like all the options are available to you. But, you'll want to know what they each entail.
Three great references:
Dr. Patrick Walsh's Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer Dr. Stephen Strum's A Primer on Prostate Cancer www.phoenix5.org
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak. > First of all, I am 60 years of age. My last reading for PSA was 5. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Jack Danny McCarty - 25 Nov 2004 02:41 GMT >Subject: Re: My Doctor says PSA isn't a diagnostic thing for cancer ! >From: nickos@webtv.net (Jack) >Date: 11/24/2004 4:30 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <29080-41A50B77-571@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net> I was 59 when my first PSA warning was 5. One a week later was 10.4, different labs. I still haven't -felt- any symptoms directly attirbutable to PCa, even though I just had two lymph nodes taken out from just below my heart that had PCa tumors in them, about a month ago. The different test was probably a "free" PSA, which -SHOULD- come back -MORE- THAN 25% if you are OK. The biopsy is an excellent idea. Since the doc didn't try antibiotics or something, the fPSA probably came back less than 25%.
>Hmm, good questions to ask to an newbie so to speak. > First of all, I am 60 years of age. My last reading for PSA was 5. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Jack I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 21:25 GMT The minute my doc said it's time for a biopsy, I bought my first prostate cancer book. Had I bought one 30 months earlier and caught my doctor's errors sooner, I might have added 20 years to my life span. I highly recommend that approach, because a BIG decision may be in the works, and it may be big enough to require weeks of research, later if not now. I strongly believe in being very involved in our health care, and until we've studied a couple of books on PCa, we aren't of much use to ourselves in this issue. It's $15-40 very well spent, IMO. Start by reading the chapter on PSA right there in the bookstore; that alone may hook you on the topic. Walsh's "Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer" is particularly easy to skim, just by reading the shaded "Read this first" section at the beginning of each chapter. And "PC for Dummies" is not a lightweight book; it's excellent.
I.P.
> I am new to all this. I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it > shows a incline into the higher numbers. Had some more blood test, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jack Steve Kramer - 25 Nov 2004 01:31 GMT Well, you've come to the right place.
Without further data, it may be that you have benign prostate problems which are treatable with Cipro, et al. Or, depending on the rate of the rise in PSA, your doc might send you for a "Free PSA" test. Then, if it still looks like cancer is the more likely, it's off to the doctor's office for a biopsy.
Then, there is a flurry of activity that is best left to after you've seen your biopsy results.
We wish you well.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> I am new to all this. I had my PSA monitored for years, and now it > shows a incline into the higher numbers. Had some more blood test, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jack I.P. Freely - 25 Nov 2004 02:02 GMT Well put. MAN, was I as busy as a bloodhound in a sausage factory after the doc said, "Congratulations; you have prostate cancer". Busy, because I was trying to compress the normal pace of all those tests from months to weeks once I knew I had an aggressive form of cancer . . . heck, TWO aggressive forms of cancer, but that's another story. But once I realized how complex PCa and its decisions are, I could barely keep up my reading in time to prepare my sets of questions for each doctor visit. It all paid off.
I.P.
"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote >
> There is a flurry of activity that is best left to after you've seen > your biopsy results. c palmer - 23 Nov 2004 01:35 GMT hi dave - your doctor just turned into a time piece and told you it's time to get a new doctor.
he is either out of touch with his practice or hasn't kept up with one of the most common cancers of the human male. what i stated is a fact and not of opinion.
i, too, had my cancer discovered by the psa test. the DRE never was positive and it was last performed just hours before the surgery, but yet, the path report showed the prostate gland was full of pca cells.
having said that - my question back to you is this - would you put your trust in a person who doesn't believe in a tool that is used in the detection of pca. the psa test is nothing more than that - a test. it is one of other tests that can be ran to help confirm pca, or at least trigger a biopsy.
this doctor's idea reminds me of what my father said when i told him of my mother-in-law having pain from pancreatic cancer. his words were......"aw, cancer doesn't hurt!!!"
well, five years later, he found out different.
i wonder what he would say if you had a psa of 2000? "don't worry about it, because this psa test isn't used to diagnose you?" "it doesn't prove you have pca?"
another question i would asked myself, "would he treat his own father like this?"
if that answer is "yes!" run - to walk - to a doctor that takes psa testing seriously
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Stephen Jordan - 23 Nov 2004 01:48 GMT > Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your opinion on all this. I was pretty set back by what my Doctor told > me. Dave's doctor is an ignorant fool.
Suggest that Dave fire him and consult a medic who is familiar with the real world.
Regards,
Steve J __ "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
philski - 23 Nov 2004 02:01 GMT > Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave Find another doctor - better yet, schedule a visit to a urologist. Get your PSA checked! My pCa was found through a rise in my PSA. And it was found early. BTW, I am 58 now. You are at the age a regular PSA checkup is necessitated. And hopefully, you will be fine. Typically, 1 in 6 men end up with prostate cancer. That number changes dramatically as men age. Hopefully, you will have normal returns. Early detection is in you best interest and being 50, heck - yer a proverbial youngster huh?!
Philski
John Loomis - 23 Nov 2004 02:08 GMT Point 7 on the PSA test.....signifies follow up. Point 3.5 may also indicate....followup Are you sure your Dr. is not checking the brake fluid in you car? Find one that can check your PSA. I was diagnosed when 49......What For? Good wishes, fire the Dr. John Loomis
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave I.P. Freely - 23 Nov 2004 02:47 GMT My doc at least measured my PSA, but then he ignored it even though it was at alarm levels. That 2.5-year delay may be the reason my PCa invaded my seminal vesicles, which in turn significantly raises the odds my PC will return (after surgery) to kill me. It could be argued that the idiot may have taken a decade or two of robust, vigorous, athletic life from me. I have changed doctors and filed a complaint with his local management, and will file a formal complaint with the regional VA headquarters.
In your case, I'd fire your doctor, find one who has read something besides TV Guide and Porsche Magazine since medical school, get my PSA measured, and decide where to go based on it -- repeat test, earlier test next time, biopsy, etc. In the meantime, go to a bookstore, find any recent book on prostate cancer, and read the chapter on PSA evaluation. You'll learn many useful things, but two will stand out: 1. Your doc is partially right. PSA alone does not DIAGNOSE PCa, because it can provide false positives and false negatives. But PSA is the earliest PCa warning flag available at present, PSA w/digital rectal exam is better yet but can still miss an important cancer, a simple biopsy can resolve most PSA alarms, and the earlier we detect it the more likely it is to be completely curable. 2. At 50 you're behind the PSA test power curve. In light of modern data, many experts now want to see PSA testing begin at 35. It costs next to nothing (it's just an extra box checked on your annual physical blood draw), false alarms are easily investigated with other tests, and you can't discover PCa too early as long as you don't overreact to an early, low-grade, small PCa.
You don't need no steenkin' doctor to be convinced of this; there's a chapter on it in every prostate cancer book written in the past decade.
I.P.
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave Danny McCarty - 23 Nov 2004 04:36 GMT >Subject: My Doctor says PSA isnt a diagnostic thing for cancer ! >From: DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Thanks, Dave It isn't diagnostic- it tells you when to get a biopsy, which is diagnostic. Insist on it, and insist on being told the number, nanograms per milliter. Or get another doctor. Boy, I love to be arrogant sometimes!
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 23 Nov 2004 12:34 GMT >It isn't diagnostic- it tells you when to get a biopsy, which is diagnostic. >Insist on it, and insist on being told the number, nanograms per milliter. Or >get another doctor. Boy, I love to be arrogant sometimes! I'm not sure about "arrogant", but I am sure about the chilling horror of some guy with a medical degree and a license out there telling men not to get their PSA tested! What a world.
Dave - 23 Nov 2004 08:02 GMT If I hadn't had mine checked...who knows? It may not be a dignostic for PCa but it sure as hell is an indicator to see if further tests are required, biopsy etc.
Get him to do it or get another Dr.
I guess if you've read this far you've got the message by now.
Good luck
Dave Dec 03 Age 51, PSA 10.8 Jan 04 Dx PCa T2a Gleason 5 Mar 04 RRP, post op path good, all contained May 04 cystoscopy & BNI now pi**ing like racehorse PSA June < 0.01 PSA Nov < 0.01
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave Dave in Lake Villa - 23 Nov 2004 12:34 GMT Thank you all for y our suggestions and info. Ill get it done for SURE !
Thanks much, Dave
I.P. Freely - 23 Nov 2004 20:07 GMT These weren't SUGGESTIONS; they were 2x4s. Hope they didn't leave a lump on your noggin! ;-) The lump belongs on that quack doctor. The moment I realized my doc had ignored my alarming PSA for 30 months, I quizzed him on a couple of other very basic medical issues in my life and treated (or non-treated) by him. The idiot failed three such tests out of three in three minutes, and will never see my face again unless I'm testifying against him in a medical competency hearing.
I.P.
> Thank you all for y our suggestions and info. Ill get it done for SURE ! > > Thanks much, Dave Leonard Evens - 23 Nov 2004 21:42 GMT > Thank you all for y our suggestions and info. Ill get it done for SURE ! > > Thanks much, Dave Dave,
You seem to have been caught in the middle of a scientific dispute. Some physicians believe that routine PSA testing is not merited. They will argue that no suitably randomized test has yet shown that routine PSA screening for prostate cancer, on the average, saves many lives. They will also argue that PSA can rise for a variety of reason, so there are lots of false positives. Also, you can have prostate cancer without having an abnormal PSA. (The non-specificity of the test is really irrelevant since it is the ensuing biopsy that really tells you if you have prostate cancer.) They will also argue that while any man in the US has about a one in six chance of being diagnosed with prostate cancer in his lifetime, only about one in six of those men actually die of it.
Urologists, who specialize in diseases of the prostate among other things, almost all would recommend the use of PSA screening and the treatment of many, but not all, cases of prostate cancer that are detected thereby. They also have very strong arguments for their position, which I won't go into at this point.
So, what are you to do as a layman? First, I agree with the others that you should get another doctor. At the very least, your doctor should have explained the controversy to you and referred you to other sources of information which would allow you to understand the issues. Then he should have left it up to you to decide what to do. On an issue as important as this, he shouldn't have hidden anything from you by telling you something as if it were universally agreed upon by the entire medical community.
Now, the next question is whether or not you should have PSA screening. If you were over 75, it might not be so clear. Many prostate cancers are very slow growing and might never bother you doing your lifetime. One of the reasons relatively few men diagnosed with prostate cancer actually die of it is that the great bulk of such men are older and die of other causes first. But at your age, my personal opinion is that PSA testing is a good idea. Were you to develop prostate cancer in the next 10 or 15 years, there is a strong chance it would metastasize, if untreated, and you would suffer from advanced prostate cancer. That is a very unpleasant disease, and at present, the treatments for it are somewhat limited and have very serious side effects. In addition, there is a good chance you would die of the disease before your time. The counter argument is that PSA testing might uncover a relatively benign cancer which you would feel obligated to have treated. The treatment might produce incontinence and impotence. (Serious incontinence is not too likely if you are treated by a competent doctor. Impotence is more likely but in relatively young men, there is an excellent chance it can be avoided, and in any event it can be treated.) So you would have had treatment you didn't need and you might have to live with some problems resulting from it. If someone could tell you in advance just which of these things would actually happen, the decision would be easy. Unfortunately, right now no one can.
Faced with these choices, those of us here, including me, clearly opted for treating our cancers rather than taking the chance that they might be innocuous.
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 23 Nov 2004 12:30 GMT First of all, get your PSA tested. Do you have a family history of the disease? If so, you should have started ten years ago.
Second, strictly speaking your doctor may be correct. The PSA is a screening test. It cannot "diagnose" cancer. There are other reasons for elevated PSA. The false positives used to be the major knock on the test. Five years ago there was no PSA Free test to do as a follow up. The only option was the biopsy. The examination of the biopsy specimens is where the diagnosis comes in. Of course, even that is not foolproof. Sometimes the cancer is missed in the biopsy, so a clean path reports doesn't mean that you still do not have cancer. Such is the wonderful confusing world of PCa.
Get that test done and have it every year. Tell your doctor he needs to get his PSA tested, along with some continuing education hours.
Thank you. David S.
>Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring >my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thanks, Dave Steve Kramer - 23 Nov 2004 21:40 GMT You don't come to newgroups for qualified doctors. You find a qualified doctor and pay $60 for a second opinion.
Here, you will find that a preponderance of members in this club consider the possibility that they are still alive due to diagnoses largely related to, if not absolutely because of, PSA.
The current 'gold standard' is that beginning at 50 you get annual PSA tests and DRE (digitial rectal examination). If either is amiss, you get a biopsy, or at least you find out what's wrong with your prostate.
Your doctor, unless he knows more that the few hundred experienced patients assembled here, needs to do a better job keeping up with medicine.
You need a PSA test!
That'll be $60.00.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> Just turned 50 and thought id have my Family Doctor start with measuring > my PSA , annually. He says :'What for !?' . I told him i understand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks, Dave David S. - 24 Nov 2004 01:36 GMT $60.00??
Last week the plumber charged me $79.00 to arrive at the door!
Your rates are too low Steve.
> You don't come to newgroups for qualified doctors. You find a qualified > doctor and pay $60 for a second opinion. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >> Thanks, Dave Steve Kramer - 24 Nov 2004 07:45 GMT I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> $60.00?? > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >> > >> Thanks, Dave ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 24 Nov 2004 12:46 GMT ROFL!! Good one.
>I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >> >> >> Thanks, Dave I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 17:26 GMT Now yer hittin' close to home. I was at first surprised how many -- and how casually -- gaggles of people waltzed into my recovery ward room and yanked back the sheet to examine my plumbing (because of the heat, all I wore to bed was the catheter and the stockings).
I.P.
> I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing. Steve Kramer - 24 Nov 2004 18:47 GMT Yup, it's right about "Recovery" where you lose all hope of modesty for the rest of your life. Well, maybe not for the rest of your life. I guess if you don't have to go through EBRT, you become continent and potent, you regain some of the modesty once lost.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> Now yer hittin' close to home. I was at first surprised how many -- and how > casually -- gaggles of people waltzed into my recovery ward room and yanked [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > I'd charge a hell of a lot more to look at your plumbing. I.P. Freely - 24 Nov 2004 19:26 GMT It got to the point after a few peep shows that I was tempted to flash the hallway as a "what the hell" jest, if I had thought they'd get the joke. And after carrying and/or wearing "the bag" for a week, I didn't even give no never-mind about CARRYING my big/overnight bag into a drugstore to fill a prescription after the ER discarded my walking bag and had only big bags to send me home with. Amazin' what a little life-treatening problem will do for our perspectives about what's actualy IMPORTANT.
I.P.
> Yup, it's right about "Recovery" where you lose all hope of modesty for > the > rest of your life. Well, maybe not for the rest of your life. I guess if > you don't have to go through EBRT, you become continent and potent, you > regain some of the modesty once lost. Ernest Gudath - 24 Nov 2004 12:23 GMT Maybe that's why he gave up his medical practice and went into plumbing.
> $60.00?? > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>> >>> Thanks, Dave C. Paul Williams, MD - 24 Nov 2004 13:49 GMT PSA testing is far from perfect, but combined with a digital rectal exam it's the best non invasive detection method we've got. Your doctor is correct that the PSA is not diagnostic. Many conditions can elevate the PSA level. That said, however, the PSA is a crucial red flag which justifies proceeding to more invasive tests (biopsy). I would have to disagree with your physician. Current national testing guidelines recommend PSA testing annually starting at age 50. Those with a family history should be tested starting at age 40. My PSA was elevated slightly at age 46. Biopsy revealed a Gleason 3+3 malignancy. My father was dianosed at age 72. My sons will begin PSA testing at age 36 (10 years younger than my age at diagnosis). Good luck. Your request was very appropriate. I would suggest having your doctor review national testing guidelines. If he or she still balks at testing, it may be time to consider a change. CPW
Steve Kramer - 24 Nov 2004 18:45 GMT Thanks again, Doc, for sticking around.
I think your creds added a significant weight to this thread.
BTW, how are YOU doing with your PSA. I don't recall a recent report. All okay?
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> PSA testing is far from perfect, but combined with a digital rectal > exam it's the best non invasive detection method we've got. Your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > balks at testing, it may be time to consider a change. > CPW C. Paul Williams, MD - 25 Nov 2004 12:37 GMT > BTW, how are YOU doing with your PSA. I don't recall a recent report. All > okay? Thanks, Steve. My two year post op PSA is still undetectable with another 6 month draw coming up in December. My PSA anxiety is a little easier to bear than most of you guys, however. I don't have to wait to hear the result from my doctor...I log into the hospital information system and usually know within about 4 hours of my blood draw. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! CPW
Steve Kramer - 26 Nov 2004 04:46 GMT It's good to have connections. Glad to hear of your scores.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non illegitimi carborundum
> > BTW, how are YOU doing with your PSA. I don't recall a recent report. All > > okay? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! > CPW
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