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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2004

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Lastest prostate cancer Treatment, high intensity focused    ultrasound

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c palmer - 11 Nov 2004 07:36 GMT
    Thursday 11 November 2004

New way to beat prostate cancer
By David Derbyshire

A revolutionary technique using powerful sound waves to melt away
prostate cancer without distressing side effects is about to start
trials in Britain, offering hope to the 30,000 men diagnosed with the
disease each year.
Doctors believe the treatment, which uses high intensity focused
ultrasound (Hifu), is as effective as conventional surgery or
radiotherapy, but with far less risk of impotence and incontinence.
 
Surgeon Mark Emberton with the ultrasound probe
It is also cheaper, less invasive and can be finished in less than three
hours under a local or regional anaesthetic.
The trial involving 150 men, which is due to start in January, follows
promising results from international studies.
A Japanese survey of 132 men treated with ultrasound for early and
medium stage prostate cancer found that almost 70 per cent were free
from disease after five years. Only 22 per cent complained of problems
with sexual function.

Conventional surgery and radiotherapy have similar survival rates - but
can leave more than two thirds of men impotent.
If the trial is a success it could pave the way for the first national
prostate cancer screening.

Many doctors object to screening because the side effects of any
subsequent treatment are so unpleasant.
Prostate cancer is the most common cancer among British men. Although
the disease is very treatable if caught early enough, most men discover
they have it only when it is in its later stages. About 10,000 die every
year.

Mark Emberton, a consultant urologist at the Royal Free and University
College London School of Medicine, who is leading the trial, said: "Men
with early prostate cancer are faced with a difficult choice about
treatments. A lot of men with low-risk cancer are just actively
monitored.
"In many people, it's a slow-growing disease. But in men who are young
or who have an aggressive form of the disease, there is an obvious need
to contemplate treatment.

"The benefit of Hifu is that it is non-invasive - there are no cuts and
no radiation. It can also be done as a day-case procedure."

The person administering the treatment will not even have to be a
trained surgeon, who needs 15 years of experience before embarking on
conventional surgery for cancer of the prostate.

Mr Emberton said that, potentially, a skilled nurse could learn the
procedure in months.

Hifu uses high energy ultrasound generated from a probe inserted in the
rectum under a local anaesthetic.
The sound waves are focused on sections of the prostate which heat up to
90C in a second - destroying tissue almost instantly.

Using a computer screen, the surgeon guides the ultrasound beam away
from nerves essential for erections and for bladder and bowel control.
Ultrasound can be used only to treat single tumours or large parts of a
tumour. It cannot treat advanced cancers which have spread to different
parts of the body.
The sound waves cannot pass through bone or air, restricting the types
of cancers that can be treated.

The trial, which will involve hospitals in London and Oxford, will
include men with early and medium stage prostate cancer, where the
disease has not spread. They will be followed up for five years.
Nick Stevens, the managing director of UKHIFU, the company co-sponsoring
the trial, said 6,000 patients around the world had been treated.
"It's pain-free, unlike most surgery. It's convenient, you don't stay in
hospital, and there's no need for a blood transfusion," he said.

"We expect from past studies, including the five-year study in Japan,
that around 80 per cent of men would retain erectile function. We hope
for around 85 to 90 per cent efficacy - possibly even higher.".
A conference in London next week organised by the Prostate Cancer
Charity will discuss the new technique and other approaches such as
cryotherapy, which kills tumours with frozen gas.
John Neate, the PCC chief executive, will call for change in the way the
cancer is tackled, including specialist teams to manage the care of men
from diagnosis to treatment.

Dr Chris Hiley, a spokesman for the charity, welcomed the trial, but
said it was too early to talk of "revolutionary treatments".

The Government is also expected to announce more details of its strategy
for tackling the disease.
Factfile

The prostate is a golfball-sized gland in the pelvis and one function is
to produce prostatic fluid, one of the five main types of fluid in
semen.

Almost all prostate cancers occur in men over 50. Although treatable if
caught early, half of men diagnosed have their cancer discovered at the
late stage.
Symptoms include a frequent need to urinate, especially at night;
problems urinating; genital pain; lower back pain; blood in urine; pain
in the hips or pelvis; and difficulty in achieving or keeping an
erection.

If doctors believe that the cancer is slow-growing and has not spread
outside the prostate, they may actively monitor the disease rather than
treat it. Men can live with the disease, symptom-free, for decades.

If the disease is diagnosed in a younger man or if it is aggressive,
surgery or radiotherapy are used to kill the cancerous cells.

For men under 70, surgery is usually the preferred option. The most
common kind is a radical prostatectomy in which the whole gland is
removed.
Around 70 per cent have no signs of cancer 10 years after surgery but a
similar number suffer from impotence after treatment.

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Leonard Evens - 11 Nov 2004 22:21 GMT
>     Thursday 11 November 2004
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> medium stage prostate cancer found that almost 70 per cent were free
> from disease after five years.

Results can depend on at which stage the cancer was caught.  But with
modern diagnostic techniques, 70 percent freedom from disease at 5 years
is not terribly impressive.

> Only 22 per cent complained of problems
> with sexual function.

Impotence is highly dependent on age.   For relatively young men, good
surgeons can achieve rates comparable to this with radical
prostatectomy.   If they are doing this for men over 65 or 70, then
there results are impressive.

> Conventional surgery and radiotherapy have similar survival rates - but
> can leave more than two thirds of men impotent.

Again that depends on age.

> If the trial is a success it could pave the way for the first national
> prostate cancer screening.
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
> "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
I P Freely - 11 Nov 2004 23:06 GMT
Don't forget that a procedure's effectiveness isn't validated until it has a
broad 15-year data base.  Do we REALLY want to experiment with our lives
while proven alternatives exist if our life expectancy otherwise > 15 years?

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 13 Nov 2004 11:24 GMT
I suspect they once said that about RRP.  Can you imagine the first guy who
was told, "You will be slit from penis to belly button.  We will reach down
through the entire width of your body and cut your prostate out.  When we're
finished, we will stitch the rest of your urethra directly to your bladder.
When we finish, you may not be able to have any kind of sex, you may not be
able to pee, you may not be able to stop peeing, and you penis will be too
short to stop from peeing on your zipper in any case."

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> Don't forget that a procedure's effectiveness isn't validated until it has a
> broad 15-year data base.  Do we REALLY want to experiment with our lives
> while proven alternatives exist if our life expectancy otherwise > 15 years?
>
> I.P.
Canada Bob - 13 Nov 2004 17:38 GMT
Hello Steve & I.P.

> I suspect they once said that about RRP.  Can you imagine the first guy who
> was told, "You will be slit from penis to belly button.

Well said Steve...

Now for I.P.'s bit...

>Don't forget that a procedure's effectiveness isn't validated until it has
>a broad 15-year data base.  Do we REALLY want to experiment with our lives
>while proven alternatives exist if our life expectancy otherwise 15
>years?

The "experiment" with HIFU has been going on for well over 15 years
I.P.
with some very impressive results, {how am I going to say this}, just
because it's not being done in the US doesn't mean to say that the
rest of the World has ignored HIFU.

I had Cryo, but I wish I could have had HIFU...

Note that you don't see many posts from folks who have had one type of
procedure wishing they could have had another, maybe that tells you
something about the way people think {if it's my dog/car/country, it's
the best dog/car/country}.

Canada Bob.
JerryW - 13 Nov 2004 18:00 GMT
Bob,

You make a good point, especially for people whose options may have been
limited by factors beyond their control.

However, it could also be that some of us spent a lot of time and effort
researching the options available to us and decided not to spend a lot of
time and effort and emotional angst second-guessing that decision, once
made. I, for one, don't necessarily think my treatment option is the best
(as in dog/car/country) for everyone. I do believe it was the best for me at
the time, and I've pretty much left it at that.
Signature

JerryW
jweindel at flash dot net

2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62)
2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe
5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes
Tumor organ-contained; lymph nodes clear, seminal vesicles clear
Both nerve bundles spared
7/13/04 PSA <0.1
10/12/04 PSA <0.1

> Hello Steve & I.P.
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Canada Bob.
Canada Bob - 15 Nov 2004 23:56 GMT
Hello Jerry...

> You make a good point, especially for people whose options may have been
> limited by factors beyond their control.

Thanks.

> However, it could also be that some of us spent a lot of time and effort
> researching the options available to us and decided not to spend a lot of
> time and effort and emotional angst second-guessing that decision, once
> made. I, for one, don't necessarily think my treatment option is the best
> (as in dog/car/country) for everyone. I do believe it was the best for me at
> the time, and I've pretty much left it at that.

I understand that Jerry, and I'm glad no offence has been taken by
anyone, but...

What I was trying to say is that "just because we each chose our
options, it doesn't mean it was the best option for us", even though
we'd ALL like to think we backed the best horse.

I too spent many weeks, well... actually about 3-4 months frantically
scouring the www and beyond for what the best option would be for me.

I was looking for options that didn't include Jaws like scars, didn't
have a high statistical probablity of incontinence, {I was more
concerned about that, even at 56, than} impotence, after all I'm not
shy of saying I haven't had sex every day for a good number of years,
BUT... I do pee most every day, several times a day, and I just didn't
fancy a procedure with a highish probablility {or is that possibility}
of reeing down my leg for the rest of my mortal...

So, scaring, peeing diapers and the like,and months of recouperation
put me off having a radical prostectoctomy, that and 2 lads I know who
had that {can I call it barbarous} treatment developed bone cancer {in
one} and lung cancer in the other within 3 years, so thrilled at this
option I wasn't.

After MUCH research into HIFU that was the path I wanted to take, but
unfortunately for me I had a calcium build up in my prostate, so HIFU
couldn't be done, leaving me with plan B, Cryo... which looked to me
like a better option than the so called "gold standards".

What I'm trying to say Jerry is, it seems to be that no matter what
option anyone takes, it's proclaimed to be the best for them, this
{self assurance} aint always healthy, sometimes the easiest person to
fool is ourselves, that and it's much too close to the "my dog, my
car, my Country" is the best.

There's an old adage over here in England that says...

"Just because you {we} want to believe something, it don't make it the
truth"

and being well aware of that sort of sentiment I try to calibrate my
thoughts and values against it.

Hope you can see what I was trying to say.

Canada Bob.
JerryW - 16 Nov 2004 02:14 GMT
Bob, I hear you, and see what you're trying to say. And, maybe because we do
want to believe that what we chose was the best for us, we are just fooling
ourselves. Or, maybe because we do believe that what we chose was the best
for us... it was! Don't know for sure. Can we agree to disagree?

JerryW

> Hello Jerry...
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> Canada Bob.
Danny McCarty - 13 Nov 2004 23:39 GMT
>Subject: Re: Lastest prostate cancer Treatment, high intensity focused
>ultrasound
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>Canada Bob.

HIFU is cutting with sound- that's vibration.  I can't help but suspect it more
likely that cells will be loosened and drift away to produce mets by HIFU than
by a knife.
Canada Bob - 15 Nov 2004 23:38 GMT
>HIFU is cutting with sound- that's vibration.  I can't help but
suspect it >morelikely that cells will be loosened and drift away to
produce mets by HIFU >than by a knife.

Holy Smokes Danny, I hope that what I say here is taken as intended
{to be informative rather than disrespectful}...

But {here we go, in at the deep end}...

HIFU cuts NOTHING... and to all intents and purposes it's not {really}
a vibration, not unless you count radio waves, radar {ven light waves}
etc as "vibrations" which they are of course, but not in the context
that you are concerning yourself about.

HIFU is ultrasound {you know, like they use for imaging pregnant
women}, but with the volume turned up {sort of} and the waves focused
{like we did as kids with a magnifiying lense and paper/wood ants
etc}, focused right down to the size of a small grain of rice.

These {safe} waves pass through your body like the magnified waves of
sunlight
doing no harm at all, until... that is... the reach the focal point,
where the short burst BLASTS the cells at that focal point into
eternity...

The heat generated at that focal point boils all the cells in that
rice grain sized area within seconds, then it lets that cool down, and
moves on to the next focal point, no pain, no discomfort, nothing only
DEATH to the bad guys.

HIFU has been used for years {around the World, think} China, Russia,
{wait a minute, am I starting off with Countries that have bad
connotations for folks in the US...

Let me start again... Countries like, England {that's better}, France
{not sure about them}, Holland {should be OK there}, Germany {don't
mention the War}
Sweden {I'll let your thoughts run wild on that one}, Italy {same
again},
Lebanon {who the hell would have backed that horse in this race},
Saudi Arabia {hey, if they want something it has to be off the top
shelf}, South Korea and on and on...

HIFU isn't just used for PCa, it's also used in here in the Untidy
Kingdom to treat {with a high degree of success} liver cancers, with
ongoing trials of other soft tissue cancers.

Do a Google Danny, check it out... I WISH I could have had HIFU...
it's walk in, walk out stuff, no diapers for weeks etc and a high
degree of potency after the procedure... not to mention no scars that
look like Jaws had his way with you, sigh...

Hope this helps,

Canada Bob.
Danny McCarty - 17 Nov 2004 00:02 GMT
>Subject: Re: Lastest prostate cancer Treatment, high intensity focused
>ultrasound
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
>Canada Bob.
Ah, heat.  The vibration is not enough to break off pieces.  Takes time to
absorb enough energy to cook the tumor.  workable.  You have to have an imaging
technique good enough to see the tumor, difficult.
Canada Bob - 17 Nov 2004 12:41 GMT
> Ah, heat. The vibration is not enough to break off pieces.

It's not really vibration at all {as we might think of it} the
"vibrations" are at incredibly high frequencies, a bit like you being
able to notice the "vibrations" going through your body from your cell
phone...

> Takes time to absorb enough energy to cook the tumor.workable.

Grin, well... HIFU is FAST, it ZAPS as fast as any microwave oven but
in a very focused way, you wouldn't even know the "waves" were going
through your body {no discomfort or even knowledge of them at all},
not even at the focal point where they become intense, even if you
weren't aneasthetized the sensation would be a good deal less than a
biopsy...

>You have to have an imaging technique good enough to see the tumor,

Yep...

>difficult.

Nope, the same imaging technique used on most if not all of us
already, Ultra sound, the same imaging technique used to check out
babies still in the womb, or many other clinical conditions, and in
real time too...

Nothing "really new" about HIFU, it's been around for YEARS {15 at
least}, during that time it has come on {like most things do} by leaps
and bounds.

That Dr Suarez {working out of Florida,Dominican Republic and now
Mexico} a well respected US Surgeon has MANY patients from the US,
many of them Dr's and Surgeons themselves, so "go figure" if they are
confident {as Medical men} why the heck wouldn't "we" be ???

If ANYONE came to me asking for my input {what the hell do I know,
grin}, I'd promote HIFU to them. I honestly believe treatments like
HIFU and Cryo are the new days dawning, Thank God for that...

The so called "gold standards" do nothing for me, I {personally} would
avoid them like the plague... who really wants to partake in 'any
prize off the bottom shelf" !

Prostatectomy: aka The Lord Nelson treatment...

Knock the poor beggers down {with a canon ball or ether}, slice them
and dice them, try not to spill any cancer cells when you're mauling
about in their guts, then pass that ball of cat gut and that heavy
duty stapler !!! then rest up {whilst praying} for the next 6
months...

Radiotherapy: aka the Chernobyl option...

Go sit on that pile of glowing rubble for a couple of days, and I'll
see you next week.

Chemo: aka the Napoleon treatment...

Drink these toxins and lets see if it kills the cancer cells faster
than it kills you.

Now I am trying to inject a bit of sardonic humour in this, BUT {to
me} these treatments have had their day, and I do {in all seriousness}
acknowledge they have saved peoples lives, and they were the best
options at the time {for some}, but I also feel they have been leaky
life boats, as I have seen a couple of my buddies put their faith in
them only to lose their lives within a couple of years due to METS.

I'm eager to see "kinder, less invasive, less brutal" treatments for
us all, the time has come where we should be demanding better options.

Have any of you any idea how much money is spent on Aids vs PCa ???

Lets put it this way... in Canada and the UK it's up to 100x more
spent on Aids research, but the problem is... there are more folks
dropping off the planet each year in Canada and the UK than are being
diagnosed with Aids.

Let me outline an example... to the best of my recall, Canada put $180
Million into Aids research in 2002/3.

In 2003 there were 164 men and 54 women diagnosed with Aids a total of
218 people {looks like we could have almost made them all
Millionaires} !

A TOTAL of around 3000 plus folks became HIV positive in Canada in
2003, while some 19,000 men were diagnosed with PCa. More of men in
Canada will die per year than the TOTAL number of folks diagnosed with
Aids/HIV.

Then take into account that the life expectancy for them is now
upwards of 15 years, few of "us" has such a rosy prospect.

In the Untidy Kingdom in 2003 we had 6602 people in TOTAL diagnosed
with Aids, and approx 30,000 men with PCa,that's 5x more diagnosed
with PCa than Aids/HIV.

In 2002 9940 men died of PCa in the UK, that's 3338 MORE men dying
then the TOTAL number of folks simply being diagnosed with Aids/HIV
!!!

What this means is... there are more men dying each year in the UK,
Canada, and in the US {do a Google and find out for yourselves} than
folks being diagnosed with Aids/HIV ! yet Aids/HIV gets the ear of the
Politicians and the money from our Governments !

The problem for us is, we aren't "organised" we don't have a political
voice, many men diagnosed with PCa go home and quietly live or die
from it.

If we don't raise out voices then little will be done for us, we will
be at the mercy of those curious as to what's going on with PCa, yet
we deserve better than that, at least equality of research funds and
voices heard in political circles, don't forget "we" are dying
faster/more per year than are even being diagnosed with Aids/HIV !!!

If ever there was a travesty then it's the neglect that we are
subjected to.

We are too blasted quiet {I'm chosing my words carefully} for our own
good !

Squeaky wheels still "get the grease", I guess there's a "freudian" in
that somewhere, sigh...

Canada Bob.
jk - 11 Nov 2004 23:47 GMT
   As of yet there's no way to actually kill JUST the PCa and not the
entire prostate along with it.

Signature

JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

jhhtexas@ieee.org - 12 Nov 2004 19:53 GMT
Ultrasound is NOT YET APPROVED in the USA by the FDA for prostate
cancer treatment. There are clinical trials ongoing, however. I would
not be willing to gamble on this approach myself until ,ore long-term
survival data can be assimilated.
Canada Bob - 16 Nov 2004 23:42 GMT
> Ultrasound is NOT YET APPROVED in the USA by the FDA for prostate
> cancer treatment. There are clinical trials ongoing, however. I would
> not be willing to gamble on this approach myself until ,ore long-term
> survival data can be assimilated.

There's long term data from the rest of the World though, seems a safe
bet to me... It's approved in Canada just down the {proverbial} Street
from you guys !

I think it's a safer "gamble" to consider that a new day {just might
have} dawned {as long as 15 years ago}, than to bet on horses that are
somewhat weary these days.

When you're life could well be on the line it might be a good idea to
look at the bigger picture, what's being done in the rest of the World
rather than what the FDA has time to look at, with all due respect
it's not the only credible agency in the World, but it is one of the
most over worked...

Canada Bob.
 
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