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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2004

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The worst part of my PC . . . so far

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I P Freely - 07 Nov 2004 21:31 GMT
It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms got
past the usual middle-age urinary bothers.
It wasn't the surgery; I slept through that.
It hasn't been the few days at home following surgery; I carry around the
bucket and get to sleep through the night for a welcome change. I haven't
yet felt any abdominal pain except for a few hiccups (I haven't sneezed
yet).
The worst part, by FAR, was the post-op week in the hospital (the bowel
resection kept me there longer than the RRP would have). Here's where
on-site assistance from a significant other, and assertive, even aggressive,
outspokenness, are vital.

The bottom line was that the nurses would NOT listen. The surgeons gave me
four vital directives:
1. Sleep (it aids healing).
2. Walk (it aids mobility).
3. After the IVs are done, Drink (to aid healing, wake up the bowel, and
flush the urinary tract of clots).
4. Take certain meds.

1. Impossible.

Even the fan my wife brought in left me sweating all day and night. I stuck
to the sheets so thoroughly I couldn't slide over to make room to roll over.
The ward was 15 degrees hotter than we keep our home this time of the year,
so even sprawling out covered only by a sheet corner over my loins was
miserable ("But I LIKE 80 degrees", said one nurse). Between the heat and
the morphine IV dehydration, I could not speak until they provided me with a
humidified air mask. One nurse walked away because she couldn't understand
my raspy attempts to communicate, and I normally have a strong, clear voice.
When I requested help getting unstuck from the sheets so I could slide over
enough to roll over without cramming my face into the bed rail, one nurse
insisted I was comfortable and refused to help (I had been in one position
for five hours).

The guy in the next bed was on his cell phone 18 hours a day, taking
incoming rings well before dawn. The staff not only allowed this, but talked
loudly to one another and to other patients across the ward and down the
hallways throughout the night. Even through my earplug (one ear is deaf), my
sound-deadening memory foam pillow, and the narcotics, sleep was extremely
difficult.

The last straw was on the second morning post-op, when some IDIOT awoke me
to offer me a moist towelette even before the clown's cell phone rang. I
insisted to my surgeon on his rounds a couple of hours later that I HAD to
get some relief, that I had slept only 6-7 hours in the two days since my
surgery. He raised enough hell to get me into a private room reserved for
VIPs (colonels? Generals? Didn't know, didn't care; I was exhausted). He
told the staff to let me sleep (I had been awakened six times in one hour
plus another 6-8 times the rest of the night for routine checks), after
which they came only to check my catheter bag and performed all their other
checks only when I rang for a nurse because my IV was beeping at me. Then a
nurse dropped my room temp by 10 degrees, after which I actually began to
get some sleep, aided by their Benadryl injection. Of course, they didn't
tell me Benadryl and narcotics are a dangerous mix, even after I asked them
to cut back after the Benadryl left me unable to function. I knew I wanted
to move my hand, for example, but couldn't figure out how to do it.

And every nurse said I was wrong when I said I needed to pee. "You're on a
catheter; you drain continuously." "No, I've always had trouble with
catheters. I've peed a hundred thousand times, and know the feeling. I have
to PEE, NOW! I'm starting to hurt." I've had this fight with a dozen nurses
and docs, and every time I've had to fix the problem myself my moving around
until I blast the apparatus almost out of their hands with a huge
bladderfull. 700 ccs at once is a LOAD of urine. Dammit, people, LISTEN TO
YOUR PATIENTS!

2. Help me to my feet and explain how to walk around with the IVs on Post-OP
Day 2? "Sorry. Try Shawna". After several hours, one nurse finally told me
they weren't very busy that day, and got me some help for that first walk. I
think the lazy bastards would have let me rot there for days if I hadn't
pushed hard or just figured it out for myself, as I finally did. They were
content to help me with a few steps across the room or even into the hall,
and were surprised to find me all over the big hospital on my own hours
later. The doc said WALK, WALK, WALK, so I was walking a few miles a day by
Day 4, with the surgeon's approval. That would never have happened if it
were up to the nurses.

3. Once off the IV, I forced fluids down all day, but they still sent me
home dehydrated. The nurses told me to stop drinking after supper, even
though I insisted I was dehydrated and showed them the signs (dessicated
skin on the backs of the hands). I kept drinking, but still didn't pee for
about 30 hours after I left the hospital, despite drinkng constantly day and
night. My urine got so thick it clogged my catheter, so my first night home
was spent in an ER until 3:AM getting the problem fixed and my catheter
replaced -- great fun while wide awake.

4. Five different nurses tried to get me to take a very harsh chemical
laxative my bowel surgeon said to avoid and which, I informed them, put me
in prolonged 9-scale pain at my first exposure to it decades earllier.
Fortunately I was alert enough to refuse, adamantly if necessary, and
explain why -- even after I informed the surgeon what they were foisting on
me. It took him two more days to straighten them out.

And this is an iceberg tip. The whole story would actually get long.

Significant others, your mate needs you day and night in these damn places.
They're too drugged to think clearly or remember much, and unless they speak
out and demand some respect, they will suffer needlessly. KNOWN hospital
errors kill 4.5 times as many people as do automobiles, and creature comfort
suffers far worse. Nurses are overworked, and many of them become robots
after a few years, turning the crank without listening. Get in the game and
safeguard your friends.

I.P.
Stephen Jordan - 07 Nov 2004 21:55 GMT
> It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms
> got past the usual middle-age urinary bothers.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> on-site assistance from a significant other, and assertive, even
> aggressive, outspokenness, are vital.

(snip horror story)

Amen, amen, amen, brother.

All too many medical folks lose track of the fact that they are
dealing with *people* who hurt, are afraid, and/or are simply
overwhelmed.

I recall a line from the Robert Mitchum B&W movie  ~30+ years
ago, "Not as a Stranger," which costarred Frank Sinatra. Mitchum
plays a doctor from student through early career.

Mitchum's character shouts at another character, "We're dealing
with human beings, HUMAN BEINGS! You're not too *stupid* to
understand *that*, are you?"

I am so very thankful that my GP, an internist, cares so much
that he'll even answer e-mails(!) A week ago, he spent an hour
with me, just reviewing my cancer situation.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Be respectful to your superiors. If you have any."
-- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"
Donna5657 - 07 Nov 2004 23:16 GMT
We were lucky to have surgeons who really cared also.   However, my sister and
I slept at the  hospital for the first few days when my father was in.   We
made our presence known to the nurses.  Anyone who is drugged and missing large
amounts of sleep cannot make proper decisions for themselves.  

Hang in there...things will get better.  
MH - 07 Nov 2004 23:13 GMT
Sorry to hear of your horrible experience, I.P.
I, on the other hand, had a *WONDERFUL* staff of nurses and doctors ... I
could not have asked to have had better care... They were all just *great*!!

Hope you're soon rid of the catheter!!
Take care!
MikeH

> It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms
> got past the usual middle-age urinary bothers.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> on-site assistance from a significant other, and assertive, even
> aggressive, outspokenness, are vital.
John Loomis - 08 Nov 2004 00:34 GMT
Well, We never expected a picnic, and neither did I.
The enemas....were something, and then the one the nurse gives you prior to
surgery was another interesting journey.
Yes, sleeping..........You don't sleep in a hospital, you toss and turn.
The heat......I am a dog.  I need a window open, in a car, and in my
bedroom.  I do not care if it is freezing outside, windy, cold,
rainy......give me fresh air!
To beat the heat at nite, and the sleepessness, I got up with my tubes,
catheter, and rolling Christmas tree of goodies and walked the entire
hospital.
I walked, and then took the elevator, and walked.....I almost got
lost.....Big Hospital.
Nurses always gave me a funny look and an extra robe to cover the
buttox......
The nurses were very nice, it was a hospital, and many folks came in at
midnite with either appendix, or somthing!

The best view of the Hospital for me was the rear view mirror.
I got up special to see that............in the car that is. headed home.

I stopped taking all the drugs, and pain, and bowel stuff.
I ate prunes, drank water, and felt better.  I walked.........walked, and
walked.......
Anyway, Thank the Dr. and the nurse for getting you through it.
Now it is up to you to take your new repaired boat out of harbor......
Good Sailing,
John Loomis

> It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms
> got past the usual middle-age urinary bothers.
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>
> I.P.
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 08 Nov 2004 12:26 GMT
My wife is a nurse, so I had good care.  The one hospital nurse was
what they call a "traveling nurse" as I recall.  She was from England
and had done this in several countires around the world, including
Saudi Arabia.  There they had to work free one day out of the month
for the king.  Not too sure what the hell that was supposed to mean,
but she said she did not like it there.  They also had nurses shipped
in from the Phillipines, some of whom did not speak english.  Good
luck patients!

Very sorry to hear about your lousy experience.  Did the hospital
where you were at have a patient ombudsman do you know?  That is one
person, usually a layman, that you can go to and get some help.  Next
time try to check that out.  I guess a letter to the hospital
administration, or better yet to the chairman of the board of
directors, would be in order.  It won't help you, but it may help the
next guy.

Good luck to you.

Thank you.
David S.

>Well, We never expected a picnic, and neither did I.
>The enemas....were something, and then the one the nurse gives you prior to
[quoted text clipped - 130 lines]
>>
>> I.P.
jhhtexas@ieee.org - 08 Nov 2004 16:34 GMT
I was lucky. My surgeon got me out of the hospital and home after one
night. He said I would be much better off at home than in the hospital.
With my wife's help, I managed to make it to the car and into my own
bed the day after my RRP. I had a much better recovery experience in my
own home.
DonC - 08 Nov 2004 17:55 GMT
>I was lucky. My surgeon got me out of the hospital and home after one
> night. He said I would be much better off at home than in the hospital.
> With my wife's help, I managed to make it to the car and into my own
> bed the day after my RRP. I had a much better recovery experience in my
> own home.

Ditto.  However during the brief ~30 hours I spent in the hospital the
nurses, in general, were great.  So good in fact that I agreed to an
interview by a student nurse shortly before my release.  They took good care
of me, let me rest and were sensitive to my needs.

Then there was Jana, a Czech night nurse.........


I P Freely - 08 Nov 2004 19:09 GMT
I expressed my concerns to both my primary surgeons (urology, bowel), with
specific examples, explaining that we patients tend to lump the overall
experience, from initial consult to recovery, into one big package. I made
it clear these ward hassles reflected on the surgeons. I told one surgeon
early in the stay, and that's when he moved me to the private room. I told
the other at the end of my stay, and he readily acknowledged that the
physician staff is fully aware of the problems I listed and many others,
some pretty serious, that they have filed many formal and informal
complaints with both local and federal VA officials. It seems that despite
Bush's 40% increase in VA funding, the nursing manning has dropped
significantly. OTOH, one nurse volunteered that the docs used to push around
a grungy "infection cart" from one room to another which the nurses began to
call the germ coach before the nurses put a stop to it because they felt it
spread more infections than it stopped. One of my docs handled and changed
my bandages several times with bare hands; if he had touched my skin I'd
have objected -- should have anyway for others' protection.

Guess it works both ways.

I.P.

> My wife is a nurse, so I had good care.  The one hospital nurse was
> what they call a "traveling nurse" as I recall.  She was from England
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> directors, would be in order.  It won't help you, but it may help the
> next guy.
Steve Kramer - 08 Nov 2004 11:48 GMT
Wow!  Usually, you cannot judge a hospital by one visit or a small number of
nurses, but it sounds to me like this is definitely one hospital to avoid in
the future.

My stay was miserable due to a physical problem, but after eight days, I had
nothing but good things to say about the nurses.  Especially Kara, whom I
still rmember 4 years later.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms got
> past the usual middle-age urinary bothers.
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
>
> I.P.
Lorelei - 08 Nov 2004 16:57 GMT
>> It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms
> got
[quoted text clipped - 143 lines]
>>
>> I.P.

this is why adult hospitals SUCK and why I work with kids. the nurses are
much better and very emotionally invested in their patients when they are
little kids I think it brings out the parenting instinct in us. Back in the
late '80s I worked at Fairview Southdale Hospital and the nurses back then
still had a low enough work load that they gave lotion rubdowns to all their
patients before bed. never would happen now. but there are way more people
trying to get into nursing schools than they accept and I believe that the
nursing "shortage" has been orchestrated to keep their wages high.
sorry to hear about your terrible experience. My Mom had one where they put
her in Lockdown ward for loonies because I wanted them to talk to her about
why she quit taking all her meds for 3 weeks before she had a heart attack.
and the next time they put in a stent in her heart but kept her meds the
same and she almost died in the car on the way home from the hospital. I
took her to the ER at another hospital and her blood pressure was 48/35. it
took a week of IV drugs to get it back to normal. we promised her that she
would never have to go to Mercy Hospital again.

the hospital in IL that we went to last month reminded me of Children's even
though it is an adult hospital. well worth the travel time to get some
compassion and caring.
L
Steve Kramer - 08 Nov 2004 17:44 GMT
I've been admitted three times since 1999.  First for four nights for
Diverticulitis.  Second, 8 nights for the RRP.  Then, 3 nights for a pseudo
heart attack (later decided to be a jelly fish sting).  For those 15 days
and 24 hours of nurses, I only had one that seemed like she was collecting a
paycheck.

Now, I've met many, many ER nurses and they seem to have run the gammut, but
even the impersonal ones usually did their jobs professionally.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> >> It wasn't pre-surg. I caught mine with elevated PSA before the symptoms
> > got
[quoted text clipped - 165 lines]
> compassion and caring.
> L
I P Freely - 08 Nov 2004 19:25 GMT
My impression was that a majority of them, at least the ones over about 25,
did their jobs professionally, but too robotically. Anything out of the norm
but not medically urgent bunched up the knickers of over half of them.
These, again, were recovery ward, not ER, nurses; I've never experienced a
hassle from ER nurses.

I was surprised I was neither bathed nor advised to bathe myself over the 7
day stay. I had to scrub a weeks' worth of grunge off when I got home,
including the various holes the surgeons had added to my repertoire. When I
inquired about getting a shower with IV needles and staples after about five
days, the nurse said she'd never shower in the hospital -- there was no
noticeable hot water. I just cleaned off in the sink occasionally, but my
dogs almost refused to accept me until I showered when I got home.

I.P.

> Now, I've met many, many ER nurses and they seem to have run the gammut,
> but
> even the impersonal ones usually did their jobs professionally.
Steve Kramer - 10 Nov 2004 12:08 GMT
My SIL is in a local hospital that has a reputation for being a dangerous
place to go.  Currently, she has had numerous lapses among the nursing and
doctors, two of which could have easily and abruptly ended her life.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

> My impression was that a majority of them, at least the ones over about 25,
> did their jobs professionally, but too robotically. Anything out of the norm
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> > but
> > even the impersonal ones usually did their jobs professionally.
Stephen Jordan - 10 Nov 2004 15:24 GMT
> My SIL is in a local hospital that has a reputation for being a dangerous
> place to go.  Currently, she has had numerous lapses among the nursing and
> doctors, two of which could have easily and abruptly ended her life.

Can't she be moved? After all, she's not a prisoner.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed
and ready."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
I P Freely - 10 Nov 2004 19:49 GMT
Given the nature of this forum, is it considered OT political commentary to
point out that under the Democrats' health plan, moving her WOULD be against
federal law? If my observation is considered political and OT, I apologize,
but I believe it's pertinent and on-topic, considering the number of times I
and my doctors violated that plan in getting my two unrelated cancers out of
my body in a timely manner.

I.P.

>> My SIL is in a local hospital that has a reputation for being a dangerous
>> place to go.  Currently, she has had numerous lapses among the nursing
>> and
>> doctors, two of which could have easily and abruptly ended her life.
>>
> Can't she be moved? After all, she's not a prisoner.
Steve Kramer - 13 Nov 2004 16:28 GMT
Sorry to not have gotten back with you sooner.  We were busy moving her.
:-)

We decided she was safer in the nursing home than the hospital.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50)
non illegitimi carborundum

>  >
> > My SIL is in a local hospital that has a reputation for being a dangerous
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> and ready."
> -- Theodore Roosevelt
I P Freely - 08 Nov 2004 18:50 GMT
I've been "bedded" seven times in six hospitals over the decades. Three
stays were fine, four included significant problems among the good stuff.
This last one included over a dozen nurses, and until I laid it on the line
to the charge nurse -- she rules the floor even over the surgeons -- and
included her in the "not listening" category, nothing changed. About 60% of
the nurses were problematic maybe 30% of the time, with the primary
noticeable improvements coming after I complained to the charge nurse and
when one of my surgeons moved me to a VIP suite on his own volition.
Suddenly the faces on the nurses became more consistent, call button
responses time dropped significantly (I tried to minimize its use, to the
point of picking things up off the floor and making my bed myself just three
days post-op), and I was finally informed that we can actually REQUEST to be
awakened less frequently and that the room temp be changed.

Yes, I'm assertive. I can be a whiner. But I try to balance that with
smiles, thanks, please, and DIY when possible. OTOH, my assertiveness --  
even managed anger when I felt it necessary -- averted two risky,
contraindicated meds up to five times; separated me from the 18-hours-a-day
cell phone addict (I asked them to put HIM in a private room); dropped the
room temp by almost 10 degrees; reduced my lights-on nighttime "home
invasions" by 90%; tripled my sleep; got me onto my feet despite a nursing
staff not complying with doc's orders; modified my diet from a constipating
one to a non-constipating one (don't forget I also had major bowel surgery,
so constipation is a serious threat); got my full bladder emptied many
times, once when it was dangerously overfilled; and ended the pre-dawn moist
towelette awakening forever.

That's not whining in my book. That's taking care of business, and if it
cost me the Mr. Congeniality Award, so be it. The choice between popularity
and vastly improved recovery is a no-brainer to me, and the only animosity I
perceived was when a nurse demanded to know why I was in a VIP room. I
resisted the impulse to tell her what she could do with her nosy inquisition
and just said something like "Doctor's orders".

I also remember two nurses 43 and 35 years later, one positively and one
negatively. The extremes stand out. One now-funny example was another nurse
who kept a huge ward extremely hot in an Air Force hospital decades ago. I
solved my problem by getting out of bed, finding a cool spot on a nearby
porch, and spending the rest of the night lying on a wooden bench. I heard
them discover I was missing, alert the staff, and conduct a search. They
found me after many minutes, and said something like "let him sleep (she
thought); at least he's quiet now." The outside temp was 20 below zero F,
the porch was probably in the upper 50s, but at least I was out of the
overheated ward and was getting some sleep.

I.P.

> Wow!  Usually, you cannot judge a hospital by one visit or a small number
> of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nothing but good things to say about the nurses.  Especially Kara, whom I
> still rmember 4 years later.
Alan Meyer - 09 Nov 2004 05:06 GMT
This is a remarkable story IP.  I'm glad you came through the
experience intact, and glad you fought for yourself.

There are many causes for poor, anti-patient services, and a
lot of them seem to be at work at the VA - though at least one
poster here, I forget which one, described an excellent experience
at a VA hospital.  Was it in Richmond VA?  I don't remember.

Maybe you should forward a copy of your postings here to
your congresperson, or at least to the head of the hospital.  I
don't expect anything will come of it, but at least you will have
tried.

   Alan
I P Freely - 09 Nov 2004 17:58 GMT
I've thought of that, but the last surgeon I complained to seemed so aware
of and involved in those problems and more that I think the war is being
waged. This hospital is a teaching hospital in conjunction with the U of WA,
so the U of WA staff and the Seattle VA staff work closely together. I will
be seeing a lot of the urology and general surgery surgical staff over the
coming weeks and years, so I'll ask them if they need a first-hand account
to back up their complaints.

I've used one other VA hospital in the past, and several AF hospitals, with
varying results, generally summarized as excellent pre-op care and surgery
followed by pretty good recovery ward care with a few significant glitches
in recovery.

The most common thread is their refusal to accept that catheters don't work
well with me. It's very rare, but I've proven my case very explicitly and
will alert the next staff in advance in writing. When my catheter failed
again last evening, I phoned the VA 24/7 medical advice line, got permission
to remove the catheter pemanently (it's been 11 days post-op-now), and in
two minutes on the phone we had the catheter out painlessly, effortlessly,
and permanently. MAN, what a relief! I can PEE agayun!

I.P. even more Freely

> This is a remarkable story IP.  I'm glad you came through the
> experience intact, and glad you fought for yourself.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>    Alan
 
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