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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / September 2004

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Conversation with a uro

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Steve Kramer - 24 Sep 2004 03:51 GMT
I saw my uro today and had a discussion about IHT, et al.  When we first
discussed HT, he said he'd want me on it for a couple of years, if it
worked, and then make a decision about IHT.  But, we hadn't had any real
discussion about IHT, just a statement that we'd look into it at that time,
if Lupron worked.  Well, Lupron is working (0.06 today) and I've been on it
since 07/2004.

Brief of our conversation:

1)    Lupron works on hormone sensitive cells but not on refractory cells
(we knew that).

2)    The fact that my PSA dropped so suddenly and apparently firmly is
"really good news.... really good!" but it does not mean that I have no
refractory cells.  "It is very unlikely that [I] have no refractory cells".
But, the fact that my PSA went down and has stayed down "is an indication
that 99% of [my] cells are not refractory" and that the rest are being wiped
out by Lupron.

3)    IHT is a medicine holiday.  You stop Lupron treatment and watch the
PSA and when it starts going up, you take more Lupron and knock it back
down.  The main reason people do it is to have erections.  It does not ward
off the refractory cell growth any longer than being on Lupron the whole
time.

4)    If/When my refractory cell rear their ugly heads, my next treatment is
probably Taxitere (sp?), a great little chemo that is effective against
refractory cells.

5)     Nothing else is apparently near the general market yet, by way of a
cure.  Genetic and vaccine therapies show a lot of promise, but then all of
a sudden a bad study comes back and they end up back at Square 1 or Square
2.

6)    I should easily live another 10 years.  That's important considering
my odds of living 10 years in 2002 were rated at 50/50.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04, 9/04
non illegitimi carborundum

Dave P - 24 Sep 2004 18:50 GMT
Great News Steve,

It looks like your odds for living 10 years have increased 2X to a 50/50
chance for living 20 years. Surely by then PCa will be controllable for
life - most likely cured.

Sounds like your going to be one of those people whose psa stays >0.1 for
numerous years or a decade.

Wishing you the best.

Dave P.

> I saw my uro today and had a discussion about IHT, et al.  When we first
> discussed HT, he said he'd want me on it for a couple of years, if it
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> 6)    I should easily live another 10 years.  That's important considering
> my odds of living 10 years in 2002 were rated at 50/50.
c palmer - 24 Sep 2004 19:23 GMT
hi steve - that is very good news.  i remember when a person only had
about 1/2 the time (less than 5 years) and that was considered good.  

by the time you get 10 years down the road, they may have something else
developed by then that we don't know and it can knock the pca out as you
would a common cold.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
MH - 24 Sep 2004 19:54 GMT
>I saw my uro today and had a discussion about IHT, et al.  When we first
> discussed HT, he said he'd want me on it for a couple of years, if it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it
> since 07/2004.

This is great news, Steve!  I'm glad the Lupron seems to be working so well.

Question, though.  If the Taxotere will kill the few refractory cells that
remain, why not take the Taxotere along with the Lupron for a period of
time?  From all I read and hear, seems Taxotere shows a lot of promise!

Take care!
MikeH
Steve Kramer - 25 Sep 2004 02:11 GMT
I'm glad you asked that question.  I can still remember going out the
driveway of The Christ Hospital Medical Building and turning right onto
Auburn Avenue thinking exactly the same thing.

I posted my uro discussion (as I have others) for the purpose of provoking
conversation on a couple of items and that is one of them.  It seems to me
that Lupron + Taxitere now could = cure now.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03, 12/03, 4/04,
non illegitimi carborundum

> >I saw my uro today and had a discussion about IHT, et al.  When we first
> > discussed HT, he said he'd want me on it for a couple of years, if it
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Take care!
> MikeH
Richard fr Monterey - 25 Sep 2004 21:53 GMT
Hi Guys

I am one of thse "newbies" who is doing the very treatment modality
you are talking about.  I was dx'd in May at 57yo with gs 4+4, bx 90%
pos., bpsa 12.8.  Based on all markers e.g. PAP, GCA, NSE, and ploidy
of aneuploidy, my LT survival mode was not looking very good with one
or two level tx.  My first urol and rad oncl were only going for what
they know as their options for survival, and it still wasn't very
promising.

I eventually found my way to Dr. Scholz in MDR, CA who, in going over
my nanograms for options, was only giving me a 75% 5 year remission
with two level modalities of tx, but when we add Taxotere Q21, to the
mix, he is projecting 85%+ for "cure."  I don't personally like that
word, but if I get 10 years good QOL, I will consider myself
fortunate.

So, to keep this converfsation to the point, I am on 28 months of
ADT3, with 150 mg/daily Casodex, Taxotere Q21, doing IMRT in Dec/Jan,
followed by SI.  At the three month date from starting ADT3, my psa is
now at .012, a good prognosis for effective treatment.

Let me know if you have further questions or can offer suggestions.

Richard Fr. Monterey
Steve Kramer - 26 Sep 2004 01:38 GMT
No questions.  I knew you were on the cocktail plan but didn't know your PSA
was .012.  That's great!

Please keep us apprised over the next couple of years of treatment.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03, 12/03, 4/04,
non illegitimi carborundum

> Hi Guys
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Richard Fr. Monterey
ron - 25 Sep 2004 01:07 GMT
> 3)    IHT is a medicine holiday.  You stop Lupron treatment and watch the
> PSA and when it starts going up, you take more Lupron and knock it back
> down.  The main reason people do it is to have erections.  It does not ward
> off the refractory cell growth any longer than being on Lupron the whole
> time.

Hi Steve...First of all congratulations on the great news and
prognosis!  One thing about this disease is that it can provide you
with times when you know what feeling good is all about!

There has been a lot of discussion over the years on the pros and cons
of HT versus IHT.  It's not clear that the "answer" is known at this
time, but a small, interesting study appeared about two years ago.
I've reproduced the abstract below.  The study suggests that there may
be a very significant advantage with IHT in terms of slowing disease
progression.  The nice thing about the study is that it was done in a
randomized manner.  Hopefully, as the authors note, follow-on studies
will track a larger group for a longer time...Best wishes and good
health, Ron

Clin Prostate Cancer. 2002 Dec;1(3):163-71
 
Intermittent versus continuous total androgen blockade in the
treatment of patients with advanced hormone-naive prostate cancer:
results of a prospective randomized multicenter trial.

de Leval J, Boca P, Yousef E, Nicolas H, Jeukenne M, Seidel L,
Bouffioux C, Coppens L, Bonnet P, Andrianne R, Wlatregny D.

Department of Urology, University Hospital, University of Liege,
Belgium.

The aim of this study was to compare the efficacy of total
intermittent androgen deprivation (IAD) versus total continuous
androgen deprivation (CAD) for treating patients with advanced
prostate cancer in a phase III randomized trial. A total of 68
evaluable patients with hormone-naive advanced or relapsing prostate
cancer were randomized to receive combined androgen blockade according
to a continuous (n = 33) or intermittent (n = 35) regimen. Therapeutic
monitoring was assessed by use of serum prostate-specific antigen
(PSA) measurements. Patients in the CAD and IAD groups were equally
stratified for age, biopsy Gleason score, and baseline serum PSA
levels. The outcome variable was time to androgen-independence of the
tumor, which was defined as increasing serum PSA levels despite
androgen blockade. Mean follow-up was 30.8 months. The 35 IAD-treated
patients completed 91 cycles, and 19 of them (54.3%) completed > or =
3 cycles. Median cycle length and percentage of time off therapy were
9.0 months and 59.5, respectively. The estimated 3-year progression
rate was significantly lower in the IAD group (7.0% +/- 4.8%) than in
the CAD group (38.9% +/- 11.2%, P = 0.0052). Our data suggest that IAD
treatment may maintain the androgen-dependent state of advanced human
prostate cancer, as assessed by PSA measurements, at least as long as
CAD treatment. Further studies with longer follow-up times and larger
patient cohorts are needed to determine the comparative impacts of CAD
and IAD on survival.

P.S. I suspect the "91 cycles" might be >1 cycle...just a guess
Sandy - 25 Sep 2004 19:24 GMT
> 3)    IHT is a medicine holiday.  You stop Lupron treatment and watch the
> PSA and when it starts going up, you take more Lupron and knock it back
> down.  The main reason people do it is to have erections.  It does not ward
> off the refractory cell growth any longer than being on Lupron the whole
> time.

Steve,

I'm glad to see you considering IHT.  My husband also is on Lupron
post RP and radiation.  His oncologist also recommended 2 yrs of
hormones but after being on them for 10 months and researching the
topic of IHT, we are going to approach the topic with our doctor.  I
think some doctors are hesitant right now to advocate IHT due to the
lack of long term data.  As you stated, attempts at regaining libido
is a large reason for IHT but there are also other advantages to be
gained.  During the off cycle, the hot flashes will lessen and
hopefully disappear.  You will be at less risk of osteoporosis,
hypertension, diabetes and high cholesterol.  Also, the energy level
will heighten and the weight will be easier to control.  I think the
continuous treatment is much more toxic to your body and there
potentially is a lot to be gained by giving your body a "rest". Just
my opinion!!

Sandi
Steve Kramer - 26 Sep 2004 01:30 GMT
Thanks, Sandi.  Sex is not a big draw for me because my wife isn't exactly
accomodating.  However, osteoporosis,
hypertension, diabetes and high cholesterol are definite interests of mine
and my family doctor's.

Hope things are going well with Dave.  I don't think I've heard much since
December or earlier.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron (1 mo) 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05 .06
Lupron (3 mo) 8/03, 12/03, 4/04,
non illegitimi carborundum

> > 3)    IHT is a medicine holiday.  You stop Lupron treatment and watch the
> > PSA and when it starts going up, you take more Lupron and knock it back
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Sandi
Fnocampo - 28 Sep 2004 02:55 GMT
Steve,

You must be one of the lucky ones for whom hormones work well. As you say, you
still have many good years to live. Congratulations!

Fernando
 
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