Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / September 2004
not my viewpoint - Inventor of PSA cancer test says it's overused
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c palmer - 12 Sep 2004 00:01 GMT my comments - this same article with sections used for their own viewpoint has been posted in reuters, wedMD, cancer facts.com, medical news today. it's a shame to think of all the men who are going to read this article and might think that the psa is useless, so why bother. so much damage is done by presenting an article such as this, that how can you go out and actively proclaim prostate cancer awareness next week, when one of the tools that is used is under attack?
~ curtis
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Inventor of PSA cancer test says it's overused
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - For many men, a routine PSA blood test to screen for prostate cancer has become an annual ritual. Now the developer of the test says it can't be relied on for this purpose, and has led to overly zealous treatment of men with prostate enlargement. Dr. Thomas A. Stamey at Stanford University first reported in 1987 that levels of PSA in the blood could be used as a marker of prostate cancer. "What we didn't know in the early years is that benign growth of the prostate is the most common cause of a PSA level between 1 and 10 ng/mL," Stamey notes in a university press release. Standard units of measurement of PSA are nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL) of blood. Stamey's group found that the average size and invasiveness of prostate cancers have been dropping over the past two decades, to the point that the cancers being discovered may not be clinically meaningful. The investigators examined tissue from 1317 prostates removed at Stanford since 1983. During the first 5-year period, 91 percent of cancers were obvious on digital rectal examination (DRE), and average volume of the cancer was 5.33 cc. Between 1999 and 2003, these values had declined to 17 percent and 2.44 cc. Also, the degree to which the tumor had penetrated the wall of the prostate dropped from an average of 1.54 to 0.22 centimeters between the two periods. What has happened, Stamey and his colleagues suggest in the Journal of Urology, is that prostate cancer is being over-treated, given that most men will develop the disease if they live long enough and the fact that death from prostate cancer is uncommon in elderly men. The authors conclude that the extensive use of PSA screening is not warranted. Instead, they recommend "careful palpation of the prostate" by DRE -- since cancers found in this way "almost always require some form of treatment." SOURCE: Journal of Urology, October 2004. Copyright © 2004 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world.
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
John Loomis - 12 Sep 2004 02:05 GMT Hi Curtis, I heard this article.... I had RP done at Stanford. If I went with the idea that high PSA was a standard......3 to 8 I would have relaxed, and so would the urologist, and I would have cancer today...(I may still) so, what does a man do. Does he get a PSA test, and opt for watchful waiting.....if the test is say 3 to 7///// Or does he follow up, and get a biopsy? If the biopsy shows cancer should he wait? I am not very clinical, and do understand. I had aggressive cancer...per biopsy/ I heard now the test is if with a DRE, and a lump is felt, it is time to excavate. Anyway....just wondering. John Loomis my comments - this same article with sections used for their own viewpoint has been posted in reuters, wedMD, cancer facts.com, medical news today. it's a shame to think of all the men who are going to read this article and might think that the psa is useless, so why bother. so much damage is done by presenting an article such as this, that how can you go out and actively proclaim prostate cancer awareness next week, when one of the tools that is used is under attack?
~ curtis
==========================
Inventor of PSA cancer test says it's overused
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - For many men, a routine PSA blood test to screen for prostate cancer has become an annual ritual. Now the developer of the test says it can't be relied on for this purpose, and has led to overly zealous treatment of men with prostate enlargement. Dr. Thomas A. Stamey at Stanford University first reported in 1987 that levels of PSA in the blood could be used as a marker of prostate cancer. "What we didn't know in the early years is that benign growth of the prostate is the most common cause of a PSA level between 1 and 10 ng/mL," Stamey notes in a university press release. Standard units of measurement of PSA are nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL) of blood. Stamey's group found that the average size and invasiveness of prostate cancers have been dropping over the past two decades, to the point that the cancers being discovered may not be clinically meaningful. The investigators examined tissue from 1317 prostates removed at Stanford since 1983. During the first 5-year period, 91 percent of cancers were obvious on digital rectal examination (DRE), and average volume of the cancer was 5.33 cc. Between 1999 and 2003, these values had declined to 17 percent and 2.44 cc. Also, the degree to which the tumor had penetrated the wall of the prostate dropped from an average of 1.54 to 0.22 centimeters between the two periods. What has happened, Stamey and his colleagues suggest in the Journal of Urology, is that prostate cancer is being over-treated, given that most men will develop the disease if they live long enough and the fact that death from prostate cancer is uncommon in elderly men. The authors conclude that the extensive use of PSA screening is not warranted. Instead, they recommend "careful palpation of the prostate" by DRE -- since cancers found in this way "almost always require some form of treatment." SOURCE: Journal of Urology, October 2004. Copyright ? 2004 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world.
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
c palmer - 12 Sep 2004 04:40 GMT jloomis@mcn.org (John Loomis) Hi Curtis, I heard this article.... I had RP done at Stanford. If I went with the idea that high PSA was a standard......3 to 8 I would have relaxed, and so would the urologist, and I would have cancer today...(I may still) so, what does a man do. Does he get a PSA test, and opt for watchful waiting.....if the test is say 3 to 7???? Or does he follow up, and get a biopsy? If the biopsy shows cancer should he wait? I am not very clinical, and do understand. I had aggressive cancer...per biopsy/ I heard now the test is if with a DRE, and a lump is felt, it is time to excavate. Anyway....just wondering. John Loomis ================hi john - i share the same views as you do. where would i be on this situation?
here's the facts. i felt great and didn't feel anything was wrong. i went in for some blood test. flunked 4 out of 5. but one of these tests i flunked was the psa. i had a 5.79. so, they gave me antibiotics and tried the psa test in two weeks. dropped to 4.80. wasn't good enough they said, so sent me to the uro. negative DRE. he said let's do the psa test again and let's what it does.
if it comes back 3.9999999, we are NOT going to do the biopsy, but if it comes back 4.0000000 or higher, then they will do the biopsy. this time the psa came back 6.35.
now, all of this has to do with how good are the psa tests. the news article say we put too much faith in them, but look at what my psa is doing. if i had followed their advice, i would be looking at a death sentence. why??? because of the 6.35 reading, they did the biopsy and they found cancer in BOTH lobes. the path report said it was gland contained but already placed at stage T2c.
the surgeon told me when he gave me the bad news that i had pca that i would not live 13 years doing watchful waiting and the last 3 years would be in deep pain.
so, what does all this mean?? the surgeon could not feel any tumors in my prostate, yet, it is known fact i have cancer. my question is how far would the cancer had grown by the time they did find the tumors? and here another problem. my prostate sat high and in front (according to the surgeon) it makes it easier to remove, but very difficult to feel because when you are doing the DRE, the prostate is further away from the colon wall and therefore can't get the sensory feeling for a tumor as easily.
so, in short, it WAS the psa test that saved my life, and that is my viewpoint. not to mention that i have a better quality of life than if i would have waited until the tumors were felt before having treatment.
we talk about how much we spend in order to save one life, such as a small child stuck in a sewer or well, or even an animal that has fallen through the ice. we risk money, equipment and manpower to save one life, yet one article such as this one will cause how many deaths because somebody reading it and taking it as the absolute truth. it makes me so damn mad to think people write this one sided opinions without thought of consequences.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Doug49 - 12 Sep 2004 22:50 GMT I had to respond to this thread. I was diagnosed 2 years ago with a positive DRE but with a false negative PSA (1.26). It was the DRE that saved my life and, for me, the PSA was useless.
However, I am as strong an advocate as you find for regular DRE and PSA testing. Just because it didn't help me, I know it has helped many, many men. Perhaps you have to experience the horror of having cancer to truly appreciate that ANY test that can help detect cancer is a good test. I encourage every guy I meet to be tested regularly and will continue to do so.
I understand the arguments about the burden on the health care system of doing "unneccesary" tests (PSA and biopsy) but I am sure that it is a very small thing compared to all of the other tests that are performed routinely for less impactful diseases.
I'm not a scientist and scientists are entitled to their debates in learned journals, but this type of article and the message it gives do a great deal of harm when the number one Prostate Cancer issue is awareness. Shame on them.
Doug (Toronto, Canada) DX Oct. 15/02); RP Dec. 4/03 PSA 1.26; Gleason 6; Type T2C
Steve Kramer - 13 Sep 2004 03:07 GMT A PSA of 1.26 is not necessarily a negative. It was a negative when docs considered 4.0 to be the point of PCa concern. Since then, however, we have learned that activity of PSA over time is a much better indicator than adopting a standard.
You are certainly correct about PSA + DRE. And, you have a great doc.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04 non illegitimi carborundum
> I had to respond to this thread. I was diagnosed 2 years ago with a > positive DRE but with a false negative PSA (1.26). It was the DRE [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > DX Oct. 15/02); RP Dec. 4/03 > PSA 1.26; Gleason 6; Type T2C Doug49 - 13 Sep 2004 17:43 GMT Thanks Steve. In my case my PSA was barely moving over time as well, but I wonder how many docs even look at the previous results to see if it's moving. I've told my brother, who now has double the odds, to make sure he monitors his from year to year. He had been having regular, annual PSA's but never knew what the outcome was.
And you're right. I have a great doctor. I owe him my life.
Doug
> A PSA of 1.26 is not necessarily a negative. It was a negative when docs > considered 4.0 to be the point of PCa concern. Since then, however, we have > learned that activity of PSA over time is a much better indicator than > adopting a standard. > > You are certainly correct about PSA + DRE. And, you have a great doc. JerryW - 14 Sep 2004 01:40 GMT Doug, just to add to what you've said, my PSA was 2.6 in Jan 2003 and 2.6 in Feb 2004. However, my family doctor felt something suspicous on DRE and sent me to a Urologist. Long story short, biopsy, cancer, RRP, and hopefully a cure. Now, I may have had cancer in Jan of 2003. But, if we had relied only upon PSA, I don't know how long we would have waited before it began climbing. Maybe too long? It made me a believer in DRE, along with PSA testing.
 Signature JerryW jweindel at flash dot net
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes Tumor organ-contained; lymph nodes clear, seminal vesicles clear Both nerve bundles spared 7/13/04 PSA <0.1
> Thanks Steve. In my case my PSA was barely moving over time as well, > but I wonder how many docs even look at the previous results to see if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> You are certainly correct about PSA + DRE. And, you have a great doc.
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