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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / September 2004

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Prostate test 'all but useless'

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john - 13 Sep 2004 07:32 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1302085,00.html

Prostate test 'all but useless'

Researchers say men put at risk of impotence

Sarah Boseley, health editor
Saturday September 11, 2004
The Guardian

Thousands of men may have unnecessarily undergone an invasive operation to
remove their prostate, sometimes suffering impotence and incontinence as a
result, because of a screening test which was yesterday written off as all
but useless.

The PSA test is a blood test that measures levels of prostate specific
antigen, a protein produced by the prostate gland. It will tell doctors that
a man has a prostate cancer, but scientists in the US said yesterday that in
many cases the man can live with the cancer and the treatment may be worse
than the cure.

"The PSA era is over," said researchers at Stanford University school of
medicine in their paper in the Journal of Urology.

The team studied prostate tissues collected over 20 years, from the time it
first became standard to remove prostates in response to high PSA levels.
Thomas Stamey, who led the research, said they concluded that the test
indicated nothing more than the size of the prostate gland. "Our study
raises a very serious question of whether a man should even use the PSA test
for prostate cancer screening any more," he said.

Professor Stamey said he had also come to believe that the PSA test was not
a useful predictor of the amount or severity of prostate cancer.

He said raised levels of the protein only reflected a condition known as
benign prostatic hyperplasia - a harmless increase in prostate size.

Tumours found 20 years ago were generally so large they generated PSA levels
high enough to provide a reasonably good measure of cancer severity. But he
said that, as screening became more commonplace, many cancers were being
caught earlier and were usually smaller, not generating sufficient PSA to be
a good indicator of severity.

He said prostate cancer was a disease all men got if they lived long enough
so, given the excuse to carry out a biopsy, doctors were most likely going
to find cancer.

Prof Stamey said the PSA was still useful in monitoring patients after
removing the prostate as an indicator of cancer that had spread to other
parts of the body.

"Our job now is to stop removing every man's prostate who has prostate
cancer," he said. "We originally thought we were doing the right thing, but
we are now figuring out how we went wrong. Some men need prostate treatment
but certainly not all of them."

There have been more doubts over the PSA test in the UK, with the result
that the NHS has opted to give men information to allow them to choose to
have it if they are concerned, rather than instituting a national screening
programme. But an increasing number of doctors are doing it.

Chris Hiley of the Prostate Cancer Charity said a PSA test that proved
positive was likely to lead to a biopsy, and since 80% of men in their 80s
and even 8% of men in their 20s had prostate cancer, it was quite likely
that cancer would be detected. Men without symptoms who chose to have a test
in the first place were probably then more likely to opt for surgery rather
than the "watchful waiting" that some experts advocate.

"The intuitively obvious thing is that if you can get in and take the
prostate out, things will be fine and dandy, but large numbers of men will
be having operations they don't need," said Dr Hiley. Some will be impotent
and incontinent because of the nerves that are severed to remove the
prostate and any cancerous tissue.

No other test will detect a cancer in a man without symptoms, and some of
those with symptoms will be inoperable. Some 10,000 men die of prostate
cancer each year.
jimhoney - 13 Sep 2004 14:05 GMT
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1302085,00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> result, because of a screening test which was yesterday written off as all
> but useless.

[snip]

Britain's National Health System will take this as a vindication of its
position against PSA screening.

Fine, from a public health point of view.  But I was a patient with
cancer...

jimhoney
standard RRP age 52, cured, no significant aftereffects
trying not to second-guess my decision
ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 13 Sep 2004 17:32 GMT
Swell.   Looks like we may be members of a more exclusive club than
what we thought, i.e., men who had their prostates removed based upon
a test that they now say is useless.  

>http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1302085,00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>those with symptoms will be inoperable. Some 10,000 men die of prostate
>cancer each year.
Sandy K. - 13 Sep 2004 19:00 GMT
Seems to me that checking PSA levels is an indicator of something gone or
going amiss.  Follow-up with a biopsy should be mandatory.  My PSA was only
4.9 but the biopsy came back with 9 of 10 cores malignant.  Testing upon
removal indicated the cancer had microscopically pierced the capsule.  As
far as I'm concerned, PSA testing works.

sandy K.

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1302085,00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> those with symptoms will be inoperable. Some 10,000 men die of prostate
> cancer each year.
Jim Hammond - 14 Sep 2004 04:55 GMT
> Seems to me that checking PSA levels is an indicator of something gone or
> going amiss.  Follow-up with a biopsy should be mandatory.  My PSA was only
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> sandy K.

My experience after my RRP last June is that PSA testing is a very
useful indicator to go with a follow-on biopsy. Mine was 6.6. My
father had prostate cancer and opted for Watchful Waiting in his mid
70's. He died of a heart attack instead of prostate cancer, so he
probably made the right decision for his age. I am 66 and am grateful
that my PSA test flagged a need for a biopsy which showed a Gleason
3+4 cancer which was found by the pathologist to be 100% contained. I
would not want to take the chance of an aggressive cancer spreading by
scrapping a routine PSA. Who would?
Glenn Enoch - 14 Sep 2004 12:44 GMT
In my case, the initial high PSA level, leading to the biopsy, was a red
herring.  It was 10, and then 6 on retest, much higher than the 2.0 it had
been 20 months before.  However,  it seems that this was all due to a
prostate infection or something similar (I have a long history), as the PSA
immediately prior to surgery was only 2.8.  Would a level that low have led
the Uro to take a biopsy?  Not clear that it would have.

The biopsy found cancer, but a very small amount.  This was borne out in
pathology -- I had a small focus of moderately aggressive cancer.  How long
could I have gone on before it became a problem?  Maybe many years, but I
recall a recent Swedish study which said that watched cancers could become
more aggressive at 15 years or so.  Certainly with a life expectancy of 30
years plus, chances are my tumor would have become a problem at some point.

15 years from now, I would be less tolerant of any treatment, have more
general health problems, would have a tougher time rebounding from any
treatment.  If I elect surgery, I'm going to have more problems with side
effects (or iatrogenic effects -- thanks, "Outlivecancer"!). Instead, I
decided to have the surgery now, and the results have been great.  Pathology
report clean, virtually no incontinence (stopped the pads two weeks ago),
very positive results with erections even without Viagra (but remember I'm
on a drug trial, which could be helping).

In my case, the PSA level was false, the biopsy barely positive, the cancer
small and probably slow-growing.  Maybe I'm a perfect example of
"unnecessary surgery."  However, I prefer to think of myself as a perfect
example of early detection.

Age 46
PSA: 1.4 (12/00), 2.0 (7/02), 10.3 (3/2/04), 6.0 (retest 3/18/04)
Biopsy 4/5/04 cancer in 10% of one core
Gleason 6 (3+3); clinical stage T1c
Bone Scan negative; pre-surgery PSA 2.8
RRP 7/27/2004
Pathological stage T2a, Gleason 6 (3+3)

On 9/13/04 2:00 PM, in article 2qm5iiF119e6uU1@uni-berlin.de, "Sandy K."
<skaston@celgene.com> wrote:

> Seems to me that checking PSA levels is an indicator of something gone or
> going amiss.  Follow-up with a biopsy should be mandatory.  My PSA was only
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> "
Danny McCarty - 15 Sep 2004 02:04 GMT
>Subject: Re: Prostate test 'all but useless'
>From: Glenn Enoch enochg@earthlink.net
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:44 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <BD6C51C2.1C58%enochg@earthlink.net>

2.8 is too high for a 40 year old man, I think.   But what the h, I think every
40 year old man should have his prostate removed.  Then you certainly will not
develop prostate cancer.  I am only half kidding.
>In my case, the initial high PSA level, leading to the biopsy, was a red
>herring.  It was 10, and then 6 on retest, much higher than the 2.0 it had
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>>
>> "
Smith - 15 Sep 2004 20:55 GMT
>>> But what the h, I think every
40 year old man should have his prostate removed.  Then you certainly will not
develop prostate cancer.  I am only half kidding.

Actually I've thought of this. Has anyone else? Has anyone had it done?
Glenn Enoch - 15 Sep 2004 21:42 GMT
I don't believe any doctor would remove a healthy prostate.

On 9/15/04 3:55 PM, in article
82a43f7f.0409151155.3e51ceb5@posting.google.com, "Smith"
<smith_bp101@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>>> But what the h, I think every
> 40 year old man should have his prostate removed.  Then you certainly will not
> develop prostate cancer.  I am only half kidding.
>
> Actually I've thought of this. Has anyone else? Has anyone had it done?
c palmer - 15 Sep 2004 23:05 GMT
<smith_bp101@hotmail.com> wrote:
But what the h, I think every
40 year old man should have his prostate removed. Then you certainly
will not develop prostate cancer. I am only half kidding.
Actually I've thought of this. Has anyone else? Has anyone had it done?
----------
(Glenn Enoch) responded with:
I don't believe any doctor would remove a healthy prostate.
=========
after being exposed to the medical field, they are composed of various
types and for a "fee" they would.  not the good doctors, just every
field has their share of the bad doctors.

i was at the dentist yesterday and had a first.  i was having a root
canal done and said to the dentist that it would be interesting to see
how this is done.  so, he reached over and gave me a mirror and said,
just put it out of the light.  we talked about his work and he explained
step by step what he was doing and why.  then he brought up the fact
that there are dentists who will tell someone that the mercury in the
fillings is poisoning their body and charge an arm and a leg to drill
them out and cap the teeth.  he said each year, the ADA comes out with
the bulletins that state that the mercury used in fillings is not a free
metal, but is bonded in the mixture to other elements.

one has to be careful on where they get their treatment and it is a
buyer, beware market.  and it makes no difference if they were shopping
for prostate removal at age 40, fillings removed because of mercury, or
the type of treatments used for prostate cancer, whether it is
radiation, surgery, or alternative type treatments, like getting eating
prunes to cure cancer........:)

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Danny McCarty - 16 Sep 2004 01:19 GMT
>Subject: Re: Prostate test 'all but useless'
>From: smith_bp101@hotmail.com  (Smith)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Actually I've thought of this. Has anyone else? Has anyone had it done?

I think a very few individuals have, but my opinion is based more on
statistical considerations then even rumors.  The risk of impotence and
incontinence would deter most of us- there is considerable risk of both.  Dry
orgasms would put off most young men, and that is a certainty.
Alan Meyer - 17 Sep 2004 00:28 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Prostate test 'all but useless'
> >From: smith_bp101@hotmail.com  (Smith)
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> incontinence would deter most of us- there is considerable risk of both.  Dry
> orgasms would put off most young men, and that is a certainty.

Also, if we extend this strategy, we should have our tonsils,
appendix, gall bladder, and maybe other organs removed.  At
one time doctors actually did some of that.  But today the risks
of needless surgeries are thought to be greater than the risks
of diseases in those organs.

   Alan
Danny McCarty - 18 Sep 2004 02:18 GMT
>Subject: Re: Prostate test 'all but useless'
>From: "Alan Meyer" ameyer2@yahoo.com
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>    Alan

True.  I would not have done it at 40- I have never had my tonsils or apppendix
removed but they seem to have disappeared by themselves.  The gall bladder is
still there...
 
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