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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2004

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Positive Biiopsy - 2nd time Part II

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Road Runner - 25 Aug 2004 19:39 GMT
Now I'm confused and not quite as confident/optimistic as before.  When I
first talked
to my doctor on Monday, I assumed after we reviewed his understanding of the
pathology report for the biopsy that I was lucky in that the report
reflected a very small/low volumne tumor whic was low grade.  I guess thats
still true
given the fact that out of 16 core tissue samples (this time) they only
found cancer in
one a single (1) core  sample which was less than 1% of that sample.
Apparently the amount
of cancer found was so small that it was hard to estimate the Glease Grade.
In fact the lab indicated that it was at least a Gleason 3.  And that alone
gives me some concern since the words "at least" implies it could be worse.
On the other hand, finding so little cancer tissue should be a good sign.
If you recall, my first biopsy took place in March of 2003 (again 16 core
tissue samples taken) and subsequent to the inital PSA of 4.02 that started
this
mess, some 5 or so PSA's have varied from a low 0f 3.4 to 3.83.
The reason for the second biopsy was the concern of the 16 and 18% Free PSA.
In short, in the
past 18 months I have had a total of 32 core needle samples with 1 core
containing (as of Aug 18)
less than 1% of cancer tissue.  Hummmmmmmm!!!!

So, I have taken  advice from several previous reponses and asked Wake
Forest Medical Hosptial to send the tissue slide to Bostwich Lab in
Richmond, VA for a second
opinion.  With such a small tissue sample in the single core, I don't know
if
they can be any more definitive.  And I certainly don't want to go through
another biopsy fishing for more cancer unless absolutely necessary.   That
would make 3.

At any rate, I am typing in below the imporant parts of the pathology report
(for anyone interested) that
I received today and if any of you think I am off base, overly concerened,
or can shed some
light on what it really says, let me know.  Significant parts of the report
follow:

****************************************************************************
********************************************************

FINAL PATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSIS
MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION AND DIAGNOSIS

A.  Needle Biopsies, Right Side of Prostate:
     Focal adenocarcinoma (see comment)

B.  Needle Biopsies, Left Side of Prostate:
    Benign prostate tissue showing areas of atrophy and areas of acute and
chronic inflamation.

COMMENT (Ref A. Above)
The tumor present in specimen A is seen focally in only one core in the
firstlievel on the A1 slide.   It represents well less than 1% of the total
amount of prostate tissue available for examination.  The focus of tumor
appears to be at least Gleason grade 3, but too little tumore is present to
give meaningful grading/scoring.

GROSS DESCRIPTION:

A.  Eight needle core biiopsies ranging from 0.4 to 2.0 cm are wrapped and
entirely submitted in A1-2.

B.  Eight needle core biopsies ranging from 1.5 to 2.0 cm are wrapped and
entirely submitted in B1.

****************************************************************************
********************************************************

I have another meeting with my doctor in about 2 weeks (Sep 9).  I hope my
original
optimism was warranted?  I should also note that the fact that I apparently
have serious inflamation problems on the left side of the prostate and this
portends
some concern for potential problems if I go the seed implantion route?

Roy in Winston-Salem

----- Original Message -----
From: "Road Runner" <rbensonjr@triad.rr.com>
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer.prostate
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 4:59 AM
Subject: Positive Biopsy - 2nd Time

> Last March I posted that I had a 16 needle biopsy conducted at the Wake
> Forest Baptist Hospital due to an elevated PSA of 4.02 (up from 3.3 a year
> earlier) with a free PSA of only 9 percent.  That biopsy found no cancer
in
> any of the core samples.  Between then and the 18th of Aug of this year
> (some 17 months or so), I've had at least 5 PSA checks ranging from 3.4 to
> 3.8 and two free PSA checks, one of which was 18 percent free,  and the
> other was 16.3 percent free.  My urologist upon seeing the July results of
> 3.4 on my total PSA and a free PSA of 16.3 percent felt it prudent to do
> another biopsy.  Again, he took 16 core tissue samples and the results
came
> in Friday indicating there was what he referred to as a very low volume
> cancer detected in only 1 of the 16 core tissue samples.  The Gleason
score
> was rated at a 6, but my doctor said the amount of tissue in that sample
was
> so small that they could only really grade one sample and just
extrapolated
> that rating once again to come up with a meaningful Gleason score.  I
assume
> the staging was established as a T1c since the cancer was detected during
> biopsy as a result of an elevated PSA.
>
> My uro seemed to indicated that the prognosis was very good and said I had
> quite a few options.  The two primary ones that seemed to be appealing to
me
> are radical surgery and seed implantation.  I asked about both seed
> implantation plus external beam radiation but the doctor seemed to thing
> that with such a small tumor that it might be an overkill and not
necessary.

> In going into the Partin tables, it seems as those there is a high
> probability that the cancer is contained within the prostate.   My uro
even
> went so far as to suggest that because of the grade and small size of the
> tumor, that a "wait and see" approach might be worth considering.
However,
> I'm not too keen on that.  He referred me to a program at John Hopkins
> called "Expectant Management" to educate myself which is available at
> http://urology.jhu.edu/prostate/advice1.php if anyone is interested.
Again,
> I want the cancer out of my body as soon as reasonably possible after due
> consideration.
>
> He did show some concern about the size of my prostate (somewhat enlarged)
> and the fact that there is some obstruction/problem in urination (ie. he
ran
> a test to see the flow of my urine) and that was marginal.  His concern is
> that with seed implantation there is some initial constriction/swelling
and
> if I already have a problem in this area it may present some unwanted
> problems/complications after implantation.   Right now he has me on Flomax
> to relax the muscles for 2 weeks and then he'll run the some urine
> flow/strength test again to see if my urination strength improves and I
> completely void the bladder.  Today, I left some urine in the bladder
which
> I gather that was not encouraging.
>
> I am scheduled to talk with a radiation expert on Sep 6 (about seed
> implants) and will know more about the urination constriction problem on
the
> 9th of Sep.  My uro says we are not in any hurry because of the smallness
of
> the cancer and the reasonably low grade, but it seems as though removal of
> the prostate will be one option that I'll weigh very heavily.    I don't
> like the idea of radical surgery (who does), but I am attracted to totally
> removing the cancer and the source if there is a high probability that it
> has not migrated out of the prostate.
>
> This was the beginning of a new and important process and I'll have to
> digest what we discussed and come up with some more questions as time goes
> on.  By nature, I am an impulsive and impatient individual, but I'll have
to
> watch myself and give this some time and serious consideration before
> "leaping" into a decision.  I do intend to get a hard copy of the biopsy
> report from the doctor when I see him again on the 9th of Sep.
>
> So, it looks as though I will be bombarding some of you "old hands" in the
> very near future with tips, advice and support.   This is something I want
> to get right the first time.
>
> Thanks for your time.  All suggestions and advice welcome.
>
> Roy in NC (age 68 - 69 in Jan) and in excellent health otherwise.

"Road Runner" <rbensonjr@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:orDWc.44$6h6.26315@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> Last March I posted that I had a 16 needle biopsy conducted at the Wake
> Forest Baptist Hospital due to an elevated PSA of 4.02 (up from 3.3 a year
> earlier) with a free PSA of only 9 percent.  That biopsy found no cancer
in
> any of the core samples.  Between then and the 18th of Aug of this year
> (some 17 months or so), I've had at least 5 PSA checks ranging from 3.4 to
> 3.8 and two free PSA checks, one of which was 18 percent free,  and the
> other was 16.3 percent free.  My urologist upon seeing the July results of
> 3.4 on my total PSA and a free PSA of 16.3 percent felt it prudent to do
> another biopsy.  Again, he took 16 core tissue samples and the results
came
> in Friday indicating there was what he referred to as a very low volume
> cancer detected in only 1 of the 16 core tissue samples.  The Gleason
score
> was rated at a 6, but my doctor said the amount of tissue in that sample
was
> so small that they could only really grade one sample and just
extrapolated
> that rating once again to come up with a meaningful Gleason score.  I
assume
> the staging was established as a T1c since the cancer was detected during
> biopsy as a result of an elevated PSA.
>
> My uro seemed to indicated that the prognosis was very good and said I had
> quite a few options.  The two primary ones that seemed to be appealing to
me
> are radical surgery and seed implantation.  I asked about both seed
> implantation plus external beam radiation but the doctor seemed to thing
> that with such a small tumor that it might be an overkill and not
necessary.

> In going into the Partin tables, it seems as those there is a high
> probability that the cancer is contained within the prostate.   My uro
even
> went so far as to suggest that because of the grade and small size of the
> tumor, that a "wait and see" approach might be worth considering.
However,
> I'm not too keen on that.  He referred me to a program at John Hopkins
> called "Expectant Management" to educate myself which is available at
> http://urology.jhu.edu/prostate/advice1.php if anyone is interested.
Again,
> I want the cancer out of my body as soon as reasonably possible after due
> consideration.
>
> He did show some concern about the size of my prostate (somewhat enlarged)
> and the fact that there is some obstruction/problem in urination (ie. he
ran
> a test to see the flow of my urine) and that was marginal.  His concern is
> that with seed implantation there is some initial constriction/swelling
and
> if I already have a problem in this area it may present some unwanted
> problems/complications after implantation.   Right now he has me on Flomax
> to relax the muscles for 2 weeks and then he'll run the some urine
> flow/strength test again to see if my urination strength improves and I
> completely void the bladder.  Today, I left some urine in the bladder
which
> I gather that was not encouraging.
>
> I am scheduled to talk with a radiation expert on Sep 6 (about seed
> implants) and will know more about the urination constriction problem on
the
> 9th of Sep.  My uro says we are not in any hurry because of the smallness
of
> the cancer and the reasonably low grade, but it seems as though removal of
> the prostate will be one option that I'll weigh very heavily.    I don't
> like the idea of radical surgery (who does), but I am attracted to totally
> removing the cancer and the source if there is a high probability that it
> has not migrated out of the prostate.
>
> This was the beginning of a new and important process and I'll have to
> digest what we discussed and come up with some more questions as time goes
> on.  By nature, I am an impulsive and impatient individual, but I'll have
to
> watch myself and give this some time and serious consideration before
> "leaping" into a decision.  I do intend to get a hard copy of the biopsy
> report from the doctor when I see him again on the 9th of Sep.
>
> So, it looks as though I will be bombarding some of you "old hands" in the
> very near future with tips, advice and support.   This is something I want
> to get right the first time.
>
> Thanks for your time.  All suggestions and advice welcome.
>
> Roy in NC (age 68 - 69 in Jan) and in excellent health otherwise.
c palmer - 25 Aug 2004 22:09 GMT
hi roy - i believe there are two main points of the report you need to
address and look at.

the first comment was this -

A. Needle Biopsies, Right Side of Prostate:     Focal adenocarcinoma
(see comment)   in other words - they found prostate cancer.

the second point to consider---

The focus of tumor appears to be at least Gleason grade 3

so, anthing past these two points is just something to argue about.  but
those were the bare facts and that should be where you focus should be
on.  up to you on how fast you want to act.

hope this helps.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Danny McCarty - 25 Aug 2004 22:17 GMT
>Subject: Positive Biiopsy - 2nd time Part II
>From: "Road Runner" rbensonjr@triad.rr.com
>Date: 8/25/2004 1:39 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <n15Xc.302$uq1.138114@twister.southeast.rr.com>

It is good, but it is cancer.  With only one "bit" to evaluate, the score is
one of the two numbers normally used and added together.  This means your
Gleason is 6 or more, probably.  I suspect the raging controversy over whether
RRP or EBRT is better doesn't apply to you- either should get rid of this one.
Congratulations, and good luck anyway...
>Now I'm confused and not quite as confident/optimistic as before.  When I
>first talked
[quoted text clipped - 251 lines]
>>
>> Roy in NC (age 68 - 69 in Jan) and in excellent health otherwise.
Larry Preuss - 25 Aug 2004 22:23 GMT
> >Subject: Positive Biiopsy - 2nd time Part II
> >From: "Road Runner" rbensonjr@triad.rr.com
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> one.
> Congratulations, and good luck anyway...

Please, please edit. It was not necessary to repeat 291 lines.
     Larry
Danny McCarty - 25 Aug 2004 22:31 GMT
>Subject: Re: Positive Biiopsy - 2nd time Part II
>From: Larry Preuss LPreuss@comcast.net
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Please, please edit. It was not necessary to repeat 291 lines.
>      Larry

Continuety, Larry.  I usually get beaten up for top-posting.... The entire
original post is almost always included.
Larry Preuss - 25 Aug 2004 22:57 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Positive Biiopsy - 2nd time Part II
> >From: Larry Preuss LPreuss@comcast.net
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Continuety, Larry.  I usually get beaten up for top-posting.... The entire
> original post is almost always included.

That is precisely what I was pointing to. Please edit.
     Larry
Ellis - 26 Aug 2004 08:57 GMT
Your low level cancer would seem to be a candidate for watchful
waiting; which involves monitoring PSA periodically, etc.

One of the advantages of watchful waiting is there are new
prostate cancer treatments in the wings, which may be
less drastic than present ones.

For example, the Cyberknife radiation treatment. I completed
Cyberknife radiation treatment in April at Stanford, which is
running Phase II trials. Just one week of radiation [5 days]
replaces 7.5 weeks [37 days] of EBRT. My 3-month PSA is down
to 37% of original, which the doctor said is excellent.
[from 8.5 to 3.1] I will have PSA every 3 mo for 2 yr.
Medicare approved it.

There are Cyberknife machines at different places in the
country which will probably adapt this procedure once it
proves out. Links:

http://www.georgetownuniversityhospital.org/body.cfm?id=1339
"Within the next few months, patients with pancreatic and
prostate cancers may have access to new treatments and
new hope, as Georgetown physicians prepare to launch
clinical trials evaluating the efficacy of the
CyberKnife in treating soft-tissue tumors"
==============================
http://www.cksociety.org/PatientInfo/MedicalConditions/prostate_cancer.asp
"In December 2003 Stanford University Medical Center was the
first institution in the world to use the CyberKnife to treat
prostate cancer. Stanford is currently offering a phase II trial
with the CyberKnife that is unique in two important ways.
First, the CyberKnife allows for a significantly reduced margin
of radiation surrounding the prostate. This results in a
significant reduction in dose to the rectum and therefore
should reduce the potential side effects. Second, the clinical
trial utilizes a hypofractionated course of irradiation
(as discussed above) that increases tumor kill, reduces
the acute side effects, and limits the late side effects
to a level comparable to that observed with conventional
external beam radiotherapy"
=============================
 
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