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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2004

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Just diagnosed...

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anon - 26 Jun 2004 19:34 GMT
Hi all,

My 77-year old father was just diagnosed with PCa
(PSA=11.6, Gleason 7(3+4), bone scan OK).

The doc prescribed hormontherapy for three months
and after that radiation.

- Is this combination (hormon+radiation) a 'standard' option for
treatment of PCa at this age?

- Is the radiation worth the trouble doing it? I'm afraid my father
will not be able to withstand it, due to his phychological profile
(he is on medication for obsession/depression/etc).

Thank you all,
Nick
Alan Meyer - 26 Jun 2004 22:12 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thank you all,
> Nick

As I understand it (I am not a doctor), the prescribed
treatment is very standard.

At age 77, radiation is more often prescribed than surgery -
which can be harder for a man of that age to recuperate from.

Gleason 7 means that the cancer is "intermediate risk", i.e.
above "low risk" and hormone therapy is often prescribed as
a "pre-adjuvant" (an associated treatment given before the
main treatment) therapy either a) to shrink the prostate in order
to make the target for radiation smaller and easier to
treat, or b) to weaken the tumor cells to make the radiation
more effective, or both.

This is very likely the right thing for your father from a medical
point of view.  As for the psychological aspects, it might be
ideal if you could discuss them with the doctor.  But whether
you can do that might depend on your father giving the
doctor permission to talk to you.

The hormone therapy has some physical effects - hot flashes
and loss of libido, and may have psychological effects.
Some men do get depressed while under hormone treatment.

The radiation therapy, assuming it's external beam radiation,
is completely painless.  It's normally administered in doses
lasting a couple of minutes a day, 5 days a week, for about
8 weeks.  It can have some physical side effects, including
sunburn like skin irritation, inflamed hemorhoids, difficulty
urinating, impotence, and blood in the semen.  The side
effects might begin about 4 weeks or so into the treatment
and get worse as the treatment goes on, but start to get
better as soon as it's over.

Implanted seed radiation ("brachytherapy") is an alternative
in which only one procedure is performed - which might be
easier for your father to take rather than going to the treatment
center every day for 8 weeks - however, unlike external beam
radiation, it's an inpatient hospital procedure requiring
anaesthesia and probably an overnight stay.  Some of the
side effects - difficulty urinating, impotence, and bloody
semen are also possible with this treatment.  The actual
radiation is released slowly, over a period of weeks or
months and the side effects, if he has them, may not
begin until some time after the implant and continue for
some weeks or a couple of months.

Again, as I understand it, with a PSA of 11.6 and Gleason
of 7, there's a good chance that the cancer is growing and
could kill your father within 5 years or so.  He might have
no symptoms for another 2-4 years, but if the cancer does
spread, the symptoms can be horrifying and the death
very difficult and painful.  So "watchful waiting" is a
significant risk, even at your father's age.

Another alternative is hormone therapy alone - which on
average will suppress the cancer for several years, after
which it will likely start to grow again.  This is NOT curative
but may enable your father to live long enough to die
of something else before any real symptoms develop.
However, hormones do have side effects and HT alone
given over a several year period will prolong the effects
well beyond the effects of the treatment prescribed by
the doctor.

Still another alternative is radiation alone.  If given as
brachytherapy, your father would go into the hospital
for a one day/night stay and not have any other treatment.

The chance for a cure is less than with the treatment
prescribed by the doctor, but there is still a decent
chance for a cure, and the treatment may be the
easiest to take.

If it were me with the cancer, I'd go with the doctor's
recommendation - which is probably the best chance
for a cure.  But clearly the other issues you raised are
complicating factors that need to be considered.

These choices are very difficult and there is no way
to know which one is best.

I hope that helps.

Best of luck to you and your Dad.

   Alan
Beverley - 27 Jun 2004 15:19 GMT
Alan just gave you a very good nutshell version of the different treatments.
What is being proposed for your father for his age and stage is very common.

The radiation is so simple. He just has to show up, drop is pants and lie on
the table for about 5 minutes, M-F, for about 8 weeks. It is painless. The
biggest side effect is tiredness, and it's nothing a good nap won't cure.

The hormone shots tend to reek havoc with some of the guys. Makes them a
little "PMSy". So your father's depression med might need to be adjusted.
Just keep an eye on him. On the flip side being he is being treated for
depression etc he might never have any problems. My father-in-law (age 82)
is on hormone shots right now and he's been quite cranky. (Wish someone
would give him a happy pill!) And some guys do not have any problems
whatsoever with hormone shots.

The treatment is not difficult. Physically it is easy. And the hardest part
is knowing you have cancer. The best thing is knowing it can be treated and
treating it. Keep it positive for your dad.
Bev

> > Hi all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>
>     Alan
Fred - 27 Jun 2004 20:33 GMT
>Still another alternative is radiation alone.  If given as
>brachytherapy, your father would go into the hospital
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>chance for a cure, and the treatment may be the
>easiest to take.

>    Alan

So brachytherapy provides less chance of a cure than the other
treatments.  Is that your position?
Beverley - 27 Jun 2004 22:40 GMT
The newest stats coming out show brachy slightly ahead of RP for a cure.
What does matter is those for whom brachytherapy does work. The field is
narrower than general. The Gleason score needs to be low along with the PSA,
the prostate needs to reside in just the right place and must not be
oversized, etc. If you can hit all the requirements then the chances of a
total "cure" is a definite go.
Bev

> >Still another alternative is radiation alone.  If given as
> >brachytherapy, your father would go into the hospital
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> So brachytherapy provides less chance of a cure than the other
> treatments.  Is that your position?
Tom Cular - 28 Jun 2004 02:20 GMT
Fred,
Typically, the suggested course of treatment for a man with the stats
described by the OP is not brachytherapy as a sole modality. If I correctly
understand the recommendations from my doctors and several others,with a lot
more experience than me. Ideal candidates for brachy alone have a PSA <10
and a Gleason score of <6. I had a PSA of  < 7 and a Gleason of 3+3 (6) and
T1c, my Dr. has had me on Lupron since Dec. 03 and probably will for another
few months to inhibit any prostate growth until the radiation from the seeds
has had a chance to do its job.

I'm a relative newcommer here, however I must say that since I've been here,
I've never seen Alan shoot from the hip or give erroneous advice. I
respectfully suggest that you do a little research for your own
enlightenment, some suggested sites are:
http://www.phoenix5.org/menumain.html
http://www.seattleprostateinst.com/index.htm
http://www.rcog.com/faq.htm
These are only the tip of the iceberg, there are volumes of info available.

Tom
Alan Meyer - 29 Jun 2004 03:21 GMT
...
> I've never seen Alan shoot from the hip or give erroneous advice. I
...

You're too kind Tom.

Now I have to really think before I write in order to live up to
your generous assessment of me :)

   Alan
ron - 28 Jun 2004 03:04 GMT
> The newest stats coming out show brachy slightly ahead of RP for a cure.

Beverly...I'd be interested in reading this article, could you provide
a reference?..TIA, Ron
Beverley - 28 Jun 2004 06:00 GMT
I'm waiting for Hagan's stats to be published. He's the one who has said
over and over that brachy is ahead of the RP. But there are other stats. I
think Duke published their about 2 years ago and they showed marked
improvement. The biggest argument against these stats is because of the
narrow field these same guys would have done just as well with a RP. That
might be true but when you look at the effects of the treatment who is
ahead??? Now you're going to make me do my homework. LOL
Bev

> > The newest stats coming out show brachy slightly ahead of RP for a cure.
>
> Beverly...I'd be interested in reading this article, could you provide
> a reference?..TIA, Ron
Ron Carter - 29 Jun 2004 17:13 GMT
Ron,

I'm another Ron (one of several in this NG, I think).  About 6 weeks
ago, I had seeds implanted by Dr. Michael Hagan in Richmond, Virginia,
the same doctor who implanted Beverly's husband.  I had my first
follow-up appointment about 3 weeks ago.  At that time, he mentioned a
study showing brachy slightly ahead of RP for the right candidates.
In fact, he said he had recently discussed the report with Dr.
Bokinsky, a highly-regarded surgeon at Virginia Urology.  He mentioned
that he had twitted Bokinsky, asking whether he was ready to stop
doing prostatectomy and start seeding his patients.  He also noted
that he is curious about what option the surgeons at Virginia Urology
will choose when they begin coming down with this disease, as will
inevitably happen to some, given that many of them are well into their
50s.

Anyway, to stop running on, I did not ask him where I could find that
study.  Should have, and perhaps I'll do so when I see him again next
month.  He also mentioned that he is about to publish his own stats,
which are supposedly stellar.  (I hope so, anyway, since I trusted my
fate to him.)

As Bev and Alan and others have said, though, brachy is only for those
with the right numbers, and that goes double for brachy monotherapy.
In fact, there is one school of thought, which Don Cooley
(http://www.prostate-help.net/) is the chief proponent, that no one
should run the risk of brachy without external beam.   In fact, Don
Cooley will tell you you're a fool to do so. I disregarded that advice
(and my fingers are permanently crossed).

> > Thsee newest stats coming out show brachy slightly ahead of RP for a cure.
>
> Beverly...I'd be interested in reading this article, could you provide
> a reference?..TIA, Ron
Alan Meyer - 29 Jun 2004 03:19 GMT
> >Still another alternative is radiation alone.  If given as
> >brachytherapy, your father would go into the hospital
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> So brachytherapy provides less chance of a cure than the other
> treatments.  Is that your position?

I can't claim to be expert enough to have a strong position
on this, but what I've read is that brachytherapy _by itself_,
i.e., as a monotherapy with no HT, works very well on so called
"low risk" cancers with PSA < 10 and Gleason <= 6.  However
it does not fare as well on "intermediate" or "high" risk cancers.

In his original posting, Nick indicated that his father is in the
intermediate risk category - PSA=11.6, Gleason=7.  So if I
understand the literature correctly (a big if), brachytherapy
by itself does not offer as high a cure rate for his father's
disease as would EBRT or brachy + HT, or for that matter, RP.

Incidentally, if I'm right about this, if a person is interested in
brachytherapy alone then getting a second opinion on the
pathology slides when Gleason score is reported as
<= 6 is important.

Brachytherapy as a monotherapy is very attractive.  You go
into a hospital once.  You get treated once.  You don't need
hormones.  You're up and walking the next day.  There's no
catheter.  The side effects may be less than for almost any
other curative treatment.  If your cancer is truly "low risk", it's
an excellent way to go.  But if the pathologist made a mistake
and the Gleason score is really higher, then you may be
facing a greater risk of failure with brachytherapy than if you
had had RP, EBRT, or brachy + HT.

At any rate, that's my reading of the literature.

   Alan
pbh1@comcast.net - 29 Jun 2004 04:56 GMT
I agree with Alan's advice and would only add this general comment re
brachytherapy monotherapy.  (I am also not a physician!) The guidelines
I've  seen generally only recommend brachytherapy monotherapy where the
Gleason score is 6 or less.  However, except in cases of RP, the Gleason
score is entirely based on the initial biopsy.  I read a recent article
analyzing Gleason scores before and after RP which indicates that in around
40% of the cases, the post-op Gleason score is different than pre-op.
Sometimes the post-op score is lower, but in a significant majority of
instances the post-op  score is higher--reflecting the fact that the biopsy
needle missed some of the bad stuff.  (The percentage variation apparently
can vary by institution.)  This has potential risk implications for basing
a brachytherapy monotherapy treatment decision on the initial biopsy score.
Brachytherapy + XBR kills cancer cells over a wider field than
brachytherapy alone, but the side effects can be more significant as well.
All of this is just food for thought as you talk your doctor.

> > On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:12:06 -0400, "Alan Meyer"
> <ameyer2@yahoo.com>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
>     Alan

Signature

"Knowing that one will be hanged in a fortnight wonderfully concentrates
the mind."  Samuel Johnson

Alan Meyer - 29 Jun 2004 22:43 GMT
Just so.

In my postings I said brachy + HT, but I should have said
brachy + EBRT and, optionally, HT.

The reason Gleason score is so important in all this is
that the higher the Gleason score and also the PSA, the
more chance there is that there are bits of cancer outside
the prostate.  Brachytherapy can do a great job of killing
tumor cells in the prostate itself, but the radiation doesn't
reach outside.

My own treatment consisted of 4 months of HT + 2 HDR
brachytherapy sessions + 23 sessions (46 grays) of EBRT.
The doctor told me that she was treating a volume one
centimeter all around the prostate with the EBRT, in the
hope of killing any cancer that had escaped.

As with RP, I suspect that the skill of the doctors is also
a factor in the success of brachytherapy.  Just shoving a
bunch of radioactive seeds into the prostate may not do
the trick.  The doctor has to place each seed in order to
get the right coverage of all the areas needing treatment.
It's a job for a painstaking perfectionist, if you can find one.

   Alan

> I agree with Alan's advice and would only add this general comment re
> brachytherapy monotherapy.  (I am also not a physician!) The guidelines
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> >
> >     Alan
Danny McCarty - 26 Jun 2004 23:43 GMT
>Subject: Just diagnosed...
>From: "anon" anon@nospam.com
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Thank you all,
>Nick

Yes.  The hormones tend to make the cancer more vulnerable to radiation, and
radiation is more tolerable than surgery.  I have been called
obsessive/depressive myself ;-}  but if your father listens to some nuts who
think radiation grows in you like a disease, he might get a little resistant.
Tell him, "Being exposed to radiation does NOT make you radioactive!"  I have
found that that impression is the most popular among laymen.  Sunburn -is-
radiation poisoning!  We get over that pretty easily, every summer.
Larry - 27 Jun 2004 04:55 GMT
Hi Nick,
I am 61 (was 60 at the time I was diagnosed). I was PSA 14+, Gleason 3+4,
bones clean, microscopic lymph node penetration.
My treatment has consisted of Zoladex since February, five weeks of EBRT
that concluded May 14, followed by 110 PD-103 seed (brachy) implants on June
10.
The side affects are bearable. Fifteen days after my brachy (yesterday), I
went on a six mile hike in the Cascade mountains. The main downside for me
is I have forgotten what it means to be able to sleep more than 2 to 3 hours
at a stretch without having to get up to pee - and that's on a good night.
Libido? I just hope it will return once I'm off the Zoladex.
It could be worse. At 77 he's faced with a battle he can win and be around
to enjoy the people in his life that love him. He's had 17 more years than
me without this curse and I enjoyed 17 years more than other contributors to
this newsgroup.

I hope he can learn to cope with the hand he's been dealt. If he wants
someone to talk to, e-mail me and we can exchange phone numbers.

BTW - Alan's synopsis is excellent!

Good luck,
Larry

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thank you all,
> Nick
Danny McCarty - 27 Jun 2004 16:37 GMT
>Subject: Re: Just diagnosed...
>From: "Larry" llarsen@remove.yahoo.com
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I am 61 (was 60 at the time I was diagnosed). I was PSA 14+, Gleason 3+4,
>bones clean, microscopic lymph node penetration.

You must have had surgery to find out about the lymph node penetration?  But
where did they put the seeds if the prostate is gone?  ;-}

>My treatment has consisted of Zoladex since February, five weeks of EBRT
>that concluded May 14, followed by 110 PD-103 seed (brachy) implants on June
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>> Thank you all,
>> Nick
Larry - 27 Jun 2004 17:30 GMT
Hi Danny,
They performed a Lymph Node Dissection for the express purpose of diagnosing
the lymph nodes. It was not an ancillary result of a RRP. I still have my
prostate - what's left of it after all the radiation, that is. I'm sure it's
getting pretty fried by now.
Hope this answers your question.
Larry

re:>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny McCarty" <roachable@aol.comneat>
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer.prostate
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Just diagnosed...
>  You must have had surgery to find out about the lymph node penetration?  But
> where did they put the seeds if the prostate is gone?  ;-}
 
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