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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2004

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Another study

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ButtercupsDad@dog.net - 09 Jun 2004 12:47 GMT
See this link:

   http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/health/main621892.shtml

Jist is that after 15 years slow growing prostate cancers become
aggresive.  Death rate triples.  
Leonard Evens - 09 Jun 2004 14:21 GMT
> See this link:
>
>     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/health/main621892.shtml
>
> Jist is that after 15 years slow growing prostate cancers become
> aggresive.  Death rate triples.  

The results of this study are not surprising.  Way back in the late 80s,
a Swedish study seemed to show that there was no significant difference
between aggressive treatment for early prostate cancer and watchful
waiting.  That study was one of the bases on which the critics of
aggressive treatment built their case.  But, as Walsh points out in
guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer, the WW group who had done so well in
the Swdish Study were just not followed long enough.  Subsequent studies
showed that similar patients followed longer didn't do as well.

The one criticism I would make of the above news report is that it
states that

"Despite those dire numbers, the results do not necessarily cast doubt
on the policy of watchful waiting for many patients with localized
prostate cancer detected at an early stage, said Dr. Victor R. Grann,
clinical professor of medicine and epidemiology at Columbia University
and co-author of an accompanying editorial."

This would be accurate if it had read "many older patients", but as it
stand it gives men who read it quickly, no matter what their age and
health status, the impression that WW might be a reasonable option for
them.  This is corrected later in the article, but many readers won't
have got that far.
Steve Kramer - 09 Jun 2004 17:08 GMT
> See this link:
>
>     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/health/main621892.shtml
>
> Jist is that after 15 years slow growing prostate cancers become
> aggresive.  Death rate triples.

Just my luck.  I guess I'd better refinance.  Dammit.  I won't live long
enough to see Social Security.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

jimhoney - 09 Jun 2004 17:58 GMT
> > See this link:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Just my luck.  I guess I'd better refinance.  Dammit.  I won't live long
> enough to see Social Security.

Wait, maybe the study implies you could have gotten away with doing nothing!
(Just kidding.)  No, another version of this story makes it clear that the
patients did not have any treatment at all.  So this does not apply to you.
You have done exactly the right things to assure your survival.

jimhoney
Steve Kramer - 09 Jun 2004 22:12 GMT
> > > See this link:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> patients did not have any treatment at all.  So this does not apply to you.
> You have done exactly the right things to assure your survival.

Great!  I'll have to call the Rolls dealer and cancel my order.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

Leonard Evens - 09 Jun 2004 21:53 GMT
>>See this link:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Just my luck.  I guess I'd better refinance.  Dammit.  I won't live long
> enough to see Social Security.

Well my predictions for you haven't been too reliable so far, but I will
venture another one.   Before you start having any serious problems,
someone is going to come up with a cure for prostate cancer which has
spread beyond the prostate.  So you are going to collect your social
security.
Steve Kramer - 09 Jun 2004 22:16 GMT
> Well my predictions for you haven't been too reliable so far, but I will
> venture another one.   Before you start having any serious problems,
> someone is going to come up with a cure for prostate cancer which has
> spread beyond the prostate.  So you are going to collect your social
> security.

Thanks, Leonard.  I'm embarassed.  I was clowning around, somewhat.  I will
not likely collect SSI, because I will be, by then, "too rich", but I
beleieve I have a good shot at 65..... if I don't have a heart attack.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

John Loomis - 10 Jun 2004 02:35 GMT
Hey Leonard,
I suggest with all the good and the bad news, we should all go out with a
bang.
Lets go camping, fishing, swimming, gambling, shopping, eating, loving,
gardening, carpentrying, polishing cars, making icecream, watching TV.
sleeping, being mad, being happy,
kissing your wife, shaking a friends hand, picking up garbage, recycleing,
reading a book, not reading a book, going out for lunch, going to a movie.
Live Life well.  It is all we get.
John Loomis

> >>See this link:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> spread beyond the prostate.  So you are going to collect your social
> security.
Danny McCarty - 09 Jun 2004 18:53 GMT
>Subject: Another study
>From: ButtercupsDad@dog.net
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Jist is that after 15 years slow growing prostate cancers become
>aggresive.  Death rate triples.  

They were not using PSA to judge the aggressiveness of the tumor.  The study is
not of much use.  I am not sure how they diagnosed the disease in the first
instance.

SIGNATURE File: Ranking the Presidents: 1.Reagan 2.Eisenhower 3.Kennedy 4.Nixon
5.Bush 6.Hoover 7.Truman  8.T.Roosevelt 9.Coolidge 10.Ford 11.Carter
12.McKinley 13.Taft 14.Harding 15.Harrison 16.Clinton 17.Wilson 18.F.Roosevelt
19.Johnson
c palmer - 09 Jun 2004 19:18 GMT
you know that they can use figures to promote their findings.  here's
the true story.

there are two main types of prostate cancer.  non hormone sensitive and
hormone sensitive.  all the doctors can play with in the hormone
sensitive side.  the non hormone sensitive still grows.  

and even on the lupron treatments, at some point, the non hormone
prostate cancer will grow large enough and produce enough psa that it
will override the effects of the lupron shot and which time, it is said
to be hormone refractive.

but the kicker is...........from this point on, the psa feeds the
hormone sensitive cancer and wakes it up and causes it grow.  and the
hormone sensitive grows a lot faster than the non hormone sensitive
type.  which is basically what the article is saying......after a given
amount of time, the slow growing cancer becomes aggressive.

question - how long did it take to achieve this effect 15 years.......20
years???????

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Danny McCarty - 09 Jun 2004 20:04 GMT
>Subject: Re: Another study
>From: PALMER_ENT@webtv.net  (c palmer)
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>~ curtis

Hmmm... I wonder if stopping the Lupron and Casodex will be the next step in my
treatment, if the PSA starts going up again too soon.  I think the doc believes
the hormone refractive cells were the ones killed off by the chemotherapy.

SIGNATURE File: Ranking the Presidents: 1.Reagan 2.Eisenhower 3.Kennedy 4.Nixon
5.Bush 6.Hoover 7.Truman  8.T.Roosevelt 9.Coolidge 10.Ford 11.Carter
12.McKinley 13.Taft 14.Harding 15.Harrison 16.Clinton 17.Wilson 18.F.Roosevelt
19.Johnson
c palmer - 09 Jun 2004 23:26 GMT
danny wrote.....

Hmmm... I wonder if stopping the Lupron and Casodex will be the next
step in my treatment, if the PSA starts going up again too soon. I think
the doc believes the hormone refractive cells were the ones killed off
by the chemotherapy.
-------------------------

hi danny - when my father went hormone refractive, the uro still wanted
him on the lupron shots.  i never did understand why they didn't give
him casodex and something similar - just the lupron shots.  when i
questioned the uro about it, he said it would still slow the progression
of the cancer down even though he went refractive.  i questioned that -
but kept it to myself and i've never found an answer to that part of the
puzzle yet.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
olfart - 10 Jun 2004 00:04 GMT
> danny wrote.....
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> ~ curtis

When I finished Rad yesterday, I had a long talk with the Dr about the fact
that he wanted me to continue the Lupron for at least another year-maybe
more. I mentioned about going Hormone Refractive after a few years on the
stuff and wanted to know if I shouldn't be "saving" the couple of good
Lupron years in case I needed them for another PSA rise. He said that with
my Gleason of 8 that I needed to continue on the Lupron. He also said that
the Lupron would still be useful by itself or in combination with other meds
if I did need it later on. He feels that my 42 Rads plus Lupron should give
me solid remission for at least 5 yrs and probably longer. He also feels
that in 5 years the advances in treatment options would probably take care
of any flare-up in PCa and that Lupron would probably be obsolete by then
anyway. He has been a RadOnc for 25 yrs and his partner (a cancer survivor)
had been at it for 15 yrs-so I put alot of faith in their opinions. Here's
hoping.
Age - 69
8/12/02 - PSA 3.7
10/13/03 - PSA 4.69
11/11/03 - PSA 4.8
11/18/03 - Biopsy - 10 cores
one core-25% of core-Gleason 4+4=8
all other cores benign tissue
12/10/03 - Consult - Oncologist
12/16/03 - Consult - Radiation Oncologist
Treatment Plan - Northeast Ga Cancer Center
HT - started 12/17/03 - Eulixen & Lupron (2nd 4 mo Lupron-4/26)
2/10/04 - Started - Flowmax and Megastrol
Radiation - IMRT to begin 3/30/04 - 42 treatments - Completed 6/8/04
c palmer - 10 Jun 2004 03:01 GMT
He also feels that in 5 years the advances in treatment options would
probably take care of any flare-up in PCa and that Lupron would probably
be obsolete by then anyway. He has been a RadOnc for 25 yrs and his
partner (a cancer survivor) had been at it for 15 yrs-so I put alot of
faith in their opinions. Here's hoping.

hi olfart - boy, i sure hope they are right.  that would be great!!!!!

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Steve Kramer - 11 Jun 2004 01:44 GMT
As the months go by, Ikeep waiting for preditions of less years to a cure.
It's nice to hear 5 years.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

> > danny wrote.....
> >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> 2/10/04 - Started - Flowmax and Megastrol
> Radiation - IMRT to begin 3/30/04 - 42 treatments - Completed 6/8/04
al1096@loud.bellsouth.net> - 11 Jun 2004 04:11 GMT
*As the months go by, Ikeep waiting for preditions of less years to a
cure.
*It's nice to hear 5 years.

That -would- be great! A cure for PCa, and well in advance of my son's
coming of age for maybe getting PCa.

Al

Please be quiet if replying via email,
flames will be deleted promptly.
I won't even read the whole message...
Danny McCarty - 10 Jun 2004 02:52 GMT
>Subject: Re: Another study
>From: PALMER_ENT@webtv.net  (c palmer)
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>~ curtis

There is probably a significant mass of non-refractive tumor that does not grow
much while Lupron is present.  But if Lupron actually -feeds- the refractive
cancer, what then?
ron - 09 Jun 2004 21:50 GMT
I have only read the abstract from this study (is the full text
available on-line?) as well as some of the press reports.  Moul
(Temporarily Deferred Therapy (watchful waiting) for Men Younger Than
70 Years and With Low-Risk Localized Prostate Cancer in the
Prostate-Specific Antigen Era; Corey A. Carter, Timothy Donahue, Leon
Sun, Hongyu Wu, David G. McLeod, Christopher Amling, Raymond Lance,
John Foley, Wade Sexton, Leo Kusuda, Andrew Chung, Douglas Soderdahl,
Stephen Jackman, and Judd W. Moul; Journal of Clinical Oncology, Vol
21, No 21 (November 1), 2003: pp 4001-4008) has shown that for men
with the following characteristics:
    age less than 70 years
    Gleason score less than 6 with no Gleason pattern 4
    no more than three cores positive on biopsy
    clinical stage less than T2
    PSA level less than 20 ng/mL at the time of diagnosis
roughly 25% will show no disease progression after 8 years of WW.  It
appears that this population is pretty well defined after 5 years of
observation (see Moul's Fig. 1).  Epstein's criteria for
insignificant, low-volume disease are even more restrictive than
Moul's and include:
    older age -usually over 65 years
    cancer can not be felt on digital rectal examination
    PSA density is 0.15 or less
    combined Gleason grade or score is 6 or less
    no more than 2 biopsy cores contain cancer
    cores containing cancer should not have more than 50 percent
involvement
Therefor one would expect even more than 25% of the men meeting
Epstein's criteria to show no disease progression at 8 years.  Near
the end of Moul's paper he phrases the key, unanswered question, "The
next analysis to be performed in this review is a comparison of the
outcomes of the 215 patients who started on a course of WW and moved
to definitive therapy with the outcomes of the men who elected
immediate, definitive treatment.  This study is underway and should
provide insight into whether temporarily deferred therapy or WW is a
reasonable management strategy for young men during the PSA era."

Now look at the JAMA paper.  The men involved in this study were
recruited between 1977 and 1984, the pre-PSA era.  PSA and Gleason
scores are unknown and PSA, doppler, biopsy, etc. could not be used as
tools (at least during the early- to mid-phase of the study) to test
for disease progression and move men to definitive therapy should
progression be detected.  All we do know is that the men were staged
T0-T2.  My guess is that far fewer men in the Swedish study had
low-risk disease compared to the men in Moul's study and their PCa
specific mortality rate should be higher (fewer resources to detect
disease progression).  Still, cumulative progression-free survival for
men 15-20 years post-diagnosis was found to be 36.0%!  The prostate
cancer mortality rate for the first 15 years compared to the rate in
years 15-20 barely tested significant at the 95% confidence level.
Hardly anyone dies during the first 5 years after diagnosis so
including these years in the preceding statistic "stacks the deck" so
to speak.  If the prostate cancer mortality rate for years 5-15 was
compared to the rate for years 15-20, I wonder if there would be any
significant difference.

Unless I've misinterpreted something, this study seems to be
consistent with Moul's findings in that there appears to be a
significant percentage (~25%) of men with low-risk PCa who do not
require invasive treatment.  The $64,000 question is how do you
identify these men upfront.  By using Moul's or Epstein's criteria, we
can increase the chances that WW will be succesful, but still, with
Moul's criteria the odds are that 3 out of 4 men will drop out.  In
addition to meeting these criteria you would also need to have a
psyche that would permit you to comfortably live with the disease
while intensely monitoring it and making significant lifestyle
changes.  Perhaps, if Moul reports back that the outcomes were similar
for men who practiced WW and later selected definitive treatment vs.
men who sought immediate treatment, low-risk men will find it easier
to live with the disease and give WW a try...Ron

> See this link:
>
>     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/health/main621892.shtml
>
> Jist is that after 15 years slow growing prostate cancers become
> aggresive.  Death rate triples.
 
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