Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2004
@ years post seeds and radiation
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Bert - 30 May 2004 04:10 GMT To the group: After reading some of the postings I realize how fortunate I am to have survived the 1 year of Lupron, terrible fatigue, and the treatment of seeds and radiation. I have been feeling great. All previous symptoms of urinary problems are gone. However after about 2 years last week I started the day with terrible burning, and a speck of blood. I had to go almost every 1/2 hour. This is after the great 2 years. I got an appointment, which is usually impossible, with my "Urology team". They checked my urine sample for an infection and the next day it was negative. When I asked the Doctor what he thought was my problem if offered no explanation. When I said is it possible it could be a result of the radiation 2 years ago he said possibly. He said make another appointment in 4 weeks. Anyone have a similar reaction years after the radiation? Bert
c palmer - 30 May 2004 08:46 GMT hi bert - sorry about the problems you are having.
i will say something, but i don't want anyone to take it as my taking any position - one way or the other. this is a known fact on what i'm going to say.
that is about radiation. if a person undergoes radiation - any kind of radiation - there is damage to the body - but the joker in the deck is that the damage doesn't happen sometimes right away.
let me give examples. sun radiation - when done to the excess during the day, doesn't show up until the night and does it go away the next day - no. it's takes time for the body to recover from the over exposure. and if you over do it again, the same thing happens.
flash burns from welding - here - the excess radiation was in the form of an arc or light. the eye could not react fast enough and the damage is done - period. when do you know about it? later, when your eyes start burning, hence the term flash burn.
laser burns - for eyes - same as above, only far more damage, because most of the time the lens of the eye is opened further because lasers normal operate in a darker environment and therefore more light can pass through into the eye and the focus of the lens can take a small amount of light and concentrate it which is about the same as getting hit with a higher dosage of light. can go into more detail if needed, but that's the basics.
radiation damage - you have alpha, beta, and gamma radiation. alpha, radiation is short lived radiation and dies out fairly fast. beta is short term also. in fact, if one was involved with a nuclear incident and there was a banana left out, it would be perfectly safe to peel and eat it as long as the contaimination never fell off the peeling onto the meat of the banana. so, that leaves gamma radiation.
gamma radiation is what x-rays are. this is what you get when you have chest x-rays or any other x-ray of the body. it is low dosage, but as you know, the x-ray tech still wears those lead shields. now, how does this all tie together prostate cancer. it is all in the method of delivery, which is why you have 3-d type, EBERT, the internal types, seeds, HDT. just to name a few. they work off of high exposure for a short period of time. killing the cancer and dissipating. but remember that sunburn???
the body has been exposed to radiation and the effects of the damage is sometimes slow in coming. there is no exact time table.
let's look at the wwII on japan. when they were exposed to radiation. some of it was so intense, that the human body vaporized and physically made a shadow on the side of the building of where that person was and that is now gone. now, that's high radiation, but that will give you some idea of just how powerful radiation can be. and then for the coming months and years later, people started coming down with radiation sickness. the same thing happened in russia when the power plant melted down. then it was years later, and people were still showing up with signs of excessive radiation damage. it is that last group i wish to talk about. these are the ones who are behaving like the ones who get radiated for treatment. the only difference - is that the radiation is aimed at the prostate.
now, bert, i can't tell you 100% that this is a result of it, but at the same time, i should tell you that it shouldn't come as a surprise either. i do think that the people in charge of the radiation types of treatments need to sit down with the patient and explain to them completely - that means spell EVERYTHING out that the patient may experience. let's face it. it's scary when stuff like this starts happening and you don't have anyone to talk to about it.
i want to reiterate again. this is not taking a stand one way or the other about radiation type treatments. they do work and there is no clear cut advantage of radiation over another type of treatment, for example - surgery. it is up to that person who has the pca to know and understand what each treatment has store for them. this way we can help each other as that person arrives to that particular part of the recovery.
here's a good example of what i'm talking about. let's say a person goes in for seeds. ok, the psa drops to it's lowest level and stays there. then about 18 months later, it spikes and starts to climb. does that mean it's coming back. no - that means it's common for that to happen if you had seeds done. but look at the time frame. look at how long it took for this to take place. it didn't happen right away. it is just like the examples i gave above only this one has a normal range of predictability.
i hope this all makes sense as i explained it. i just wanted to keep this post simple and easy to understand. there is a lot more i could go into as far as details, but it really starts into into technical numbers and jargon.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
MIKE - 30 May 2004 15:43 GMT About two years post seeds, I had blood in the urine. Not just a spot of blood but lots of it including some clots. It lasted about 24 hours then stopped. My uro did a cystoscopy but saw nothing. My theory was that there was a blood blister in the bladder from the radiation that suddenly let go. A friend that had beam radiation had the same thing happen. There seems to be a lot that doctors don't know!
-MIKE
Steve Kramer - 30 May 2004 16:00 GMT There is a tremendous amount of stuff they don't know. One poster here a few months ago pointed out medicine is an ART, not a SCIENCE. Hell, there are still some parts of the body they don't even know why they are there. I don't think they even know what all the glands do, or at least their ultimate purpose, that are attached to the ducts between the testes and the penis. Let alone what different amounts of radiation, given in under different circumstances, might do to them. And, when they finally figure it all out in the body, they'll move onto the brain... and I don't think they'll figure that one out in another millenium.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04
> About two years post seeds, I had blood in the urine. Not just a spot > of blood but lots of it including some clots. It lasted about 24 hours [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -MIKE Alan Meyer - 31 May 2004 14:50 GMT > About two years post seeds, I had blood in the urine. Not just a spot > of blood but lots of it including some clots. It lasted about 24 hours [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -MIKE Speaking from total ignorance, I can say that this explanation sounds very plausible to me. The doctor found no sign of infection. Assuming his tests were accurate and there really is no infection, then a physical injury of some kind sounds very likely.
Maybe a blister broke, exposing underlying unprotected tissue to the urine stream to cause the burning. Or maybe a scab or some scar tissue gave way, doing the same thing.
If it was a blister or a scab or scar tissue, it could very well have been created by the radiation, or by some subsequent reaction to the radiation. In any of these cases, I'd expect the problem to heal up in a few days.
[It's wonderful not knowing anything about medicine. It makes it so much easier for me to speculate on this stuff than if I had to take real facts into account.]
Alan
Danny McCarty - 30 May 2004 20:43 GMT >Subject: Re: @ years post seeds and radiation >From: PALMER_ENT@webtv.net (c palmer) [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > >~ curtis Alpha particles are the nuclei of helium atoms, ie, with the two electrons stripped off. As they move rapidly through tissue, their charge pushes and pulls on the nuclei and electrons in the atoms of molecules and makes them vibrate rapidly or even pull apart. They push interact so well that they are slowed down and stopped rapidly, then pick up a couple of electrons and become ordinary helium atoms, harmless. A very heavy bombardment of Alpha can cause shallow radiation burns, like sunburn.
Beta particles are electrons. They are very light and are stopped even sooner than Alpha. Their single charge pulls and pushes on nuclei and other electrons as they pass. Again, they can cause a "sunburn" effect.
Gamma radiation is very high energy photons, ie "particles of light". They are essentially travelling packets of electric and magnetic fields, which push and pull on the nuclei and electrons in atoms and molecules. Each individual Gamma ray "particle" must be either completely absorbed or not absorbed at all. Most pass entirely through your body as if it were not there, and do no harm to you. But they have a lot of energy and do a lot of damage to molecules which absorb them. X-rays are merely lower energy Gamma rays, and light is even lower energy. Light is completely absorbed by just your skin while only enough X-rays are absorbed to make a shadow on film.
Seeds are close enough to prostate tissue so that the Alpha and Beta particles can reach most of the prostate tissue, yet not get far enough beyond the prostate to damage surrounding tissues. Gamma sources are not (or should not be) used for seeding.
c palmer - 31 May 2004 20:19 GMT Alpha particles are the nuclei of helium atoms, ie, with the two electrons stripped off. As they move rapidly through tissue, their charge pushes and pulls on the nuclei and electrons in the atoms of molecules and makes them vibrate rapidly or even pull apart. They push interact so well that they are slowed down and stopped rapidly, then pick up a couple of electrons and become ordinary helium atoms, harmless. A very heavy bombardment of Alpha can cause shallow radiation burns, like sunburn. Beta particles are electrons. They are very light and are stopped even sooner than Alpha. Their single charge pulls and pushes on nuclei and other electrons as they pass. Again, they can cause a "sunburn" effect. Gamma radiation is very high energy photons, ie "particles of light". They are essentially travelling packets of electric and magnetic fields, which push and pull on the nuclei and electrons in atoms and molecules. Each individual Gamma ray "particle" must be either completely absorbed or not absorbed at all. Most pass entirely through your body as if it were not there, and do no harm to you. But they have a lot of energy and do a lot of damage to molecules which absorb them. X-rays are merely lower energy Gamma rays, and light is even lower energy. Light is completely absorbed by just your skin while only enough X-rays are absorbed to make a shadow on film. Seeds are close enough to prostate tissue so that the Alpha and Beta particles can reach most of the prostate tissue, yet not get far enough beyond the prostate to damage surrounding tissues. Gamma sources are not (or should not be) used for seeding. --------------------------- hi danny - again - a very good explanation of what's going on. but don't you agree that people should be told of what's happening to their body from the radiation when they combine seeds with the EBERT? now, they are getting a double whammy. and while the prostate cancer cells are getting hit with the one, two punch, so is that part of the body as well as the surrounding tissue.
i guess what bothers me is folks are getting the radiation treatments and these same folks are not making any reference to what they were told before they started the treatments. i'm talking about in terms of radiation damage and the complications from the that damage.
i will use myself as an example from the surgery. when i was told about the surgery process, i was told that i could have complications from this surgery - which i did. was i happy about it? no!!! but never the less, i was told up front, so it was not a total shock to me, when things didn't go my way.
i wonder how many are told like i was - only in terms of the treatment of radiation and the complications that can happen and when and what to expect - right up front before the treatment started, like i was.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Alan Meyer - 31 May 2004 21:12 GMT ...
> i wonder how many are told like i was - only in terms of > the treatment of radiation and the complications that can > happen and when and what to expect - right up front before > the treatment started, like i was. ...
It's a multi-faceted problem I think. The doctors don't have enough time to answer questions, and tend to be very focussed on the medical/technical aspects of the disease instead of on patient education. The patients don't know what questions to ask, and sometimes are in too much emotional distress to think clearly enough to educate themselves.
A cousin of mine who is a medical oncologist told me that he has two kinds of patients - those who come in with a list of questions and want to know everything, and others who come in and say, "I don't want to know anything about it doc, just do whatever you need to do to cure me."
Needless to say, all of us in this group are in the first category. But doctors get used to dealing with both types and don't always get into the proper patient education frame of mind.
We're luck that there are so many good patient oriented books and websites available to us now, not to mention this and similar newsgroups.
Alan
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