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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2004

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@ years post seeds and radiation

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Bert - 30 May 2004 04:10 GMT
To the group:
After reading some of the postings I realize how fortunate I am to have
survived the 1 year of Lupron, terrible fatigue, and the treatment of seeds
and radiation.
I have been feeling great.  All previous symptoms of urinary problems are
gone.  However after about 2 years last week I started the day with terrible
burning, and a speck of blood.  I  had to go almost every 1/2 hour.  This is
after the great 2 years.  I got an appointment, which is usually impossible,
with my "Urology team".  They checked my urine sample for an infection and
the next day it was negative.  When I asked the Doctor what he thought was
my problem if offered no explanation.  When I said is it possible it could
be a result of the radiation 2 years ago he said possibly.  He said make
another appointment in 4 weeks.
Anyone have a similar reaction years after the radiation?
Bert
c palmer - 30 May 2004 08:46 GMT
hi bert - sorry about the problems you are having.  

i will say something, but i don't want anyone to take it as my taking
any position - one way or the other.   this is a known fact on what i'm
going to say.

that is about radiation.   if a person undergoes radiation - any kind of
radiation - there is damage to the body - but the joker in the deck is
that the damage doesn't happen sometimes right away.

let me give examples.   sun radiation - when done to the excess during
the day, doesn't show up until the night and does it go away the next
day - no.  it's takes time for the body to recover from the over
exposure.  and if you over do it again, the same thing happens.

flash burns from welding - here - the excess radiation was in the form
of an arc or light.  the eye could not react fast enough and the damage
is done - period.  when do you know about it?  later, when your eyes
start burning, hence the term flash burn.  

laser burns - for eyes - same as above, only far more damage, because
most of the time the lens of the eye is opened further because lasers
normal operate in a darker environment and therefore more light can pass
through into the eye and the focus of the lens can take a small amount
of light and concentrate it which is about the same as getting hit with
a higher dosage of light.  can go into more detail if needed, but that's
the basics.

radiation damage - you have alpha, beta, and gamma radiation.  alpha,
radiation is short lived radiation and dies out fairly fast.  beta is
short term also.  in fact, if one was involved with a nuclear incident
and there was a banana left out, it would be perfectly safe to peel and
eat it as long as the contaimination never fell off the peeling onto the
meat of the banana.  so, that leaves gamma radiation.

gamma radiation is what x-rays are.  this is what you get when you have
chest x-rays or any other x-ray of the body.  it is low dosage, but as
you know, the x-ray tech still wears those lead shields.  now, how does
this all tie together prostate cancer.  it is all in the method of
delivery, which is why you have 3-d type, EBERT, the internal types,
seeds,  HDT.  just to name a few.  they work off of high exposure for a
short period of time.  killing the cancer and dissipating.   but
remember that sunburn???  

the body has been exposed to radiation and the effects of the damage is
sometimes slow in coming.  there is no exact time table.  

let's look at the wwII on japan.  when they were exposed to radiation.
some of it was so intense, that the human body vaporized and physically
made a shadow on the side of the building of where that person was and
that is now gone.  now, that's high radiation, but that will give you
some idea of just how powerful radiation can be.  and then for the
coming months and years later, people started coming down with radiation
sickness.  the same thing happened in russia when the power plant melted
down.  then it was years later, and people were still showing up with
signs of excessive radiation damage.  it is that last group i wish to
talk about.  these are the ones who are behaving like the ones who get
radiated for treatment.  the only difference - is that the radiation is
aimed at the prostate.  

now, bert, i can't tell you 100% that this is a result of it, but at the
same time, i should tell you that it shouldn't come as a surprise
either.  i do think that the people in charge of the radiation types of
treatments need to sit down with the patient and explain to them
completely - that means spell EVERYTHING out that the patient may
experience.  let's face it.  it's scary when stuff like this starts
happening and you don't have anyone to talk to about it.

i want to reiterate again.  this is not taking a stand one way or the
other about radiation type treatments.  they do work and there is no
clear cut advantage of radiation over another type of treatment, for
example - surgery.  it is up to that person who has the pca to know and
understand what each treatment has store for them.   this way we can
help each other as that person arrives to that particular part of the
recovery.  

here's a good example of what i'm talking about.  let's say a person
goes in for seeds.  ok, the psa drops to it's lowest level and stays
there.  then about 18 months later, it spikes and starts to climb.  does
that mean it's coming back.  no - that means it's common for that to
happen if you had seeds done.  but look at the time frame.  look at how
long it took for this to take place.  it didn't happen right away.  it
is just like the examples i gave above only this one has a normal range
of predictability.

i hope this all makes sense as i explained it.  i just wanted to keep
this post simple and easy to understand. there is a lot more i could go
into as far as details, but it really starts into into technical numbers
and jargon.  

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
MIKE - 30 May 2004 15:43 GMT
About two years post seeds, I had blood in the urine.  Not just a spot
of blood but lots of it including some clots.  It lasted about 24 hours
then stopped.  My uro did a cystoscopy but saw nothing.  My theory was
that there was a blood blister in the bladder from the radiation that
suddenly let go.  A friend that had beam radiation had the same thing
happen.  There seems to be a lot that doctors don't know!

                 -MIKE
Steve Kramer - 30 May 2004 16:00 GMT
There is a tremendous amount of stuff they don't know.  One poster here a
few months ago pointed out medicine is an ART, not a SCIENCE.  Hell, there
are still some parts of the body they don't even know why they are there.  I
don't think they even know what all the glands do, or at least their
ultimate purpose, that are attached to the ducts between the testes and the
penis.  Let alone what different amounts of radiation, given in under
different circumstances, might do to them.  And, when they finally figure it
all out in the body, they'll move onto the brain... and I don't think
they'll figure that one out in another millenium.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

> About two years post seeds, I had blood in the urine.  Not just a spot
> of blood but lots of it including some clots.  It lasted about 24 hours
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>                   -MIKE
Alan Meyer - 31 May 2004 14:50 GMT
> About two years post seeds, I had blood in the urine.  Not just a spot
> of blood but lots of it including some clots.  It lasted about 24 hours
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>                   -MIKE

Speaking from total ignorance, I can say that this
explanation sounds very plausible to me.  The doctor
found no sign of infection.  Assuming his tests were
accurate and there really is no infection, then a physical
injury of some kind sounds very likely.

Maybe a blister broke, exposing underlying unprotected
tissue to the urine stream to cause the burning.  Or maybe
a scab or some scar tissue gave way, doing the same thing.

If it was a blister or a scab or scar tissue, it could very
well have been created by the radiation, or by some
subsequent reaction to the radiation.  In any of these
cases, I'd expect the problem to heal up in a few days.

[It's wonderful not knowing anything about medicine.  It
makes it so much easier for me to speculate on this stuff
than if I had to take real facts into account.]

   Alan
Danny McCarty - 30 May 2004 20:43 GMT
>Subject: Re: @ years post seeds and radiation
>From: PALMER_ENT@webtv.net  (c palmer)
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>
>~ curtis

Alpha particles are the nuclei of helium atoms, ie, with the two electrons
stripped off.   As they move rapidly through tissue, their charge pushes and
pulls on the nuclei and electrons in the atoms of molecules and makes them
vibrate rapidly or even pull apart.  They push interact so well that they are
slowed down and stopped rapidly, then pick up a couple of electrons and become
ordinary helium atoms, harmless.  A very heavy bombardment of Alpha can cause
shallow radiation burns, like sunburn.

Beta particles are electrons.  They are very light and are stopped even sooner
than Alpha.  Their single charge pulls and pushes on nuclei and other electrons
as they pass.  Again, they can cause a "sunburn" effect.

Gamma radiation is very high energy photons, ie "particles of light".  They are
essentially travelling packets of electric and magnetic fields, which push and
pull on the nuclei and electrons in atoms and molecules.  Each individual Gamma
ray "particle" must be either completely absorbed or not absorbed at all.  Most
pass entirely through your body as if it were not there, and do no harm to you.
But they have a lot of energy and do a lot of damage to molecules which absorb
them.  X-rays are merely lower energy Gamma rays, and light is even lower
energy.  Light is completely absorbed by just your skin while only enough
X-rays are absorbed to make a shadow on film.  

Seeds are close enough to prostate tissue so that the Alpha and Beta particles
can reach most of the prostate tissue, yet not get far enough beyond the
prostate to damage surrounding tissues.  Gamma sources are not (or should not
be) used for seeding.
c palmer - 31 May 2004 20:19 GMT
Alpha particles are the nuclei of helium atoms, ie, with the two
electrons stripped off.   As they move rapidly through tissue, their
charge pushes and pulls on the nuclei and electrons in the atoms of
molecules and makes them vibrate rapidly or even pull apart. They push
interact so well that they are slowed down and stopped rapidly, then
pick up a couple of electrons and become ordinary helium atoms,
harmless. A very heavy bombardment of Alpha can cause shallow radiation
burns, like sunburn.
Beta particles are electrons. They are very light and are stopped even
sooner than Alpha. Their single charge pulls and pushes on nuclei and
other electrons as they pass. Again, they can cause a "sunburn" effect.
Gamma radiation is very high energy photons, ie "particles of light".
They are essentially travelling packets of electric and magnetic fields,
which push and pull on the nuclei and electrons in atoms and molecules.
Each individual Gamma ray "particle" must be either completely absorbed
or not absorbed at all. Most pass entirely through your body as if it
were not there, and do no harm to you.
  But they have a lot of energy and do a lot of damage to molecules
which absorb them. X-rays are merely lower energy Gamma rays, and light
is even lower energy. Light is completely absorbed by just your skin
while only enough X-rays are absorbed to make a shadow on film.
Seeds are close enough to prostate tissue so that the Alpha and Beta
particles can reach most of the prostate tissue, yet not get far enough
beyond the prostate to damage surrounding tissues. Gamma sources are not
(or should not be) used for seeding.
---------------------------
hi danny - again - a very good explanation of what's going on.  but
don't you agree that people should be told of what's happening to their
body from the radiation when they combine seeds with the EBERT?   now,
they are getting a double whammy.  and while the prostate cancer cells
are getting hit with the one, two punch, so is that part of the body as
well as the surrounding tissue.

i guess what bothers me is folks are getting the radiation treatments
and these same folks are not making any reference to what they were told
before they started the treatments.  i'm talking about in terms of
radiation damage and the complications from the that damage.

i will use myself as an example from the surgery.  when i was told about
the surgery process, i was told that i could have complications from
this surgery - which i did.  was i happy about it?  no!!!  but never the
less, i was told up front, so it was not a total shock to me, when
things didn't go my way.  

i wonder how many are told like i was - only in terms of the treatment
of radiation and the complications that can happen and when and what to
expect - right up front before the treatment started, like i was.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Alan Meyer - 31 May 2004 21:12 GMT
...
> i wonder how many are told like i was - only in terms of
> the treatment of radiation and the complications that can
> happen and when and what to expect - right up front before
> the treatment started, like i was.
...

It's a multi-faceted problem I think.  The doctors don't
have enough time to answer questions, and tend to be
very focussed on the medical/technical aspects of the
disease instead of on patient education.  The patients
don't know what questions to ask, and sometimes are
in too much emotional distress to think clearly enough
to educate themselves.

A cousin of mine who is a medical oncologist told me
that he has two kinds of patients - those who come in
with a list of questions and want to know everything, and
others who come in and say, "I don't want to know
anything about it doc, just do whatever you need to do
to cure me."

Needless to say, all of us in this group are in the first
category.  But doctors get used to dealing with both
types and don't always get into the proper patient
education frame of mind.

We're luck that there are so many good patient oriented
books and websites available to us now, not to mention
this and similar newsgroups.

   Alan
 
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