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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2004

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what are your thoughts of the treatments?

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c palmer - 15 May 2004 22:44 GMT
hi folks - as i have been researching more and more on the different
treatments.  i've found that each one is trying to woo the reader to
their way of thinking.

then, as i research more and more into the big business side of prostate
cancer, i'm finding that industry is putting big bucks into the sale of
a certain treatment over another type of treatment - not that it's
better - just more profit.

as i reflect back quite a few years ago, i remember how the drug company
reps would give doctors samples to pass out to the patients so as to get
the doctor to write the script for their particular product.  not that
it was better, but they did a better job of marketing to grab their
share on the users out there.

and i really wonder just how many men being dx'ed with prostate cancer
are not getting a fair shake as to what is in their best interest.  of
course, i realize that this may depend on how good someone's insurance
is, etc, etc.  take for example - a man has pca but his insurance is not
that great.  why recommend a better type treatment for him, if he can
only afford the lower cost spread.  

when someone signs on with the bad news of being told they have pca and
ask what is the best treatment out there, we all give what we have been
exposed to - myself included - because it is what we experienced.  

but i was just wondering if business and industry isn't help shaping
things on the choices of treatments because of the big bucks.  

take for example - color doppler.  one can see the increase in blood
supply which would indicate a possible presence of a tumor.  probably
won't show up as good as using black and white ultrasound.  the
equipment is getting better and i feel in that respect, will provide the
patient with a better idea of how much cancer and developed and how much
it has grown and possibility with this new input of information, may
even adjust the partin tables a little - one way or the other.

i was wanting to throw these thoughts out to the group.

as prostate cancer is happening to more and more men because the baby
boomers are aging - are we, as a group, being led down certain pathways
because of money considerations in the industry of treating prostate
cancer or are we getting a true picture was all treatments that are out
there?  what are your thoughts?

and before you answer - reflect on all the responses we have made as a
group on the final outcome of the choice of treatment each of us has
taken.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
al1096@loud.bellsouth.net> - 16 May 2004 06:08 GMT
*hi folks - as i have been researching more and more on the different
*treatments.  i've found that each one is trying to woo the reader to
*their way of thinking.

Well, for me, after having separate, independent blood samples with
elevated PSA, then biopsy, I felt it better, for me, to have cancer
removed through surgery. I'd have loved to keep the gland because it's
a very weird feeling to have sex and have no pressure in penis like
before. But the treatment would have had to be proved equal to or
better than surgery. Not sure when technology will catch up with
treatment, but it'd be my hope that it will in my lifetime, so others,
perhaps my son, won't have to have such a major operation, if at all.

Al
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MH - 16 May 2004 11:15 GMT
> Well, for me, after having separate, independent blood samples with
> elevated PSA, then biopsy, I felt it better, for me, to have cancer
> removed through surgery.

I felt it better, for *me*, to do the same.  But it's not the choice of
treatment that's best for *everyone.*  Each man has to make an informed
decision and choose what is best for him.  I'm certainly supportive of
anyone's right to make that choice.... and I see good things happening for
those who have chosen radiation.  From what I understand, and perhaps
Leonard can chime in on this, it seems that the *cure rates* for radiation
seem to be just as good as RP... though obviously there has not been as long
a time to study them.  But at some point someone has to step up and take a
bit of a chance based on skill and technology... otherwise, we'd all still
be having the old-fashioned RP where they just *cut it all out, nerves and
all.*  Personally, I opted for LRP... and there are pros and cons, at this
time, concerning that procedure.  But it was what was right for me, and I
don't regret my decision at all.

>I'd have loved to keep the gland because it's
> a very weird feeling to have sex and have no pressure in penis like
> before.

What has been your experience post-op, Al?  How long ago was your surgery?
Have your erections returned?  Did you use Viagra or some other aid along
the way?  It certainly *does* feel different without the gland, doesn't it?
Of course, guys who have radiation eventually have basically the same
feeling since radiation also destroys the gland.

As you said, I hope my son (and all sons) will be spared having to go
through this.

I wish everyman well, whatever his choice of treatment.  And though I
couldn't be satisfied with the radiation approach (I'm too much of a worrier
and needed it out!), I'm glad there are men who *are* making that choice and
having such positive results.  My father chose to have brachytherapy three
years ago and has been fine ever since!  Who knows?  He may outlive me!

Take care.... be well....
MikeH
al1096@loud.bellsouth.net> - 16 May 2004 15:52 GMT


*What has been your experience post-op, Al?  How long ago was your
surgery?
*Have your erections returned?  Did you use Viagra or some other aid
along
*the way?  It certainly *does* feel different without the gland,
doesn't it?

Post op has been much better than expected. Had RP Feb 03, wore pads
for about 3 weeks during day, and alittle longer at night. Erections
have definitely returned. Infact, had a partial with catheter still in
(not a pleasant experience at all!) Now I have erections at will, not
like before, but still enough that I don't need meds for it.
Masturbation has helped too. And definitely, yep, with having
ejaculate for so many years, psychologically it's taking longer to
adjust to the loss. So far, my GF hasn't complained and seems thrilled
that we can enjoy the spontaneity of sex instead of stopping activity
to get a condom. I'm divorced btw, and ex is no where to be seen. A
very good thing indeed! Anyways, I'm very glad I found this newsgroup.
I'm liking the huge support everyone's able to share! Thanks everyone!

Al
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Claude - 16 May 2004 20:11 GMT
<al1096@loud.bellsouth.net>> wrote in message

So far, my GF hasn't complained and seems thrilled
> that we can enjoy the spontaneity of sex instead of stopping activity
> to get a condom.

This sentence has raised a question that I have never considered before.
It's purely hypothetical, but if a person is HIV positive and has an RP
where there is no ejaculate, does he still need to wear a condom when having
sex?  I would imagine that the only way such a person could transmit the
virus would be through an open sore on the penis.
Lee - 16 May 2004 20:23 GMT
>This sentence has raised a question that I have never considered before.
>It's purely hypothetical, but if a person is HIV positive and has an RP
>where there is no ejaculate, does he still need to wear a condom when having
>sex?  I would imagine that the only way such a person could transmit the
>virus would be through an open sore on the penis.

But what about the Cowper's Gland? I think that's still intact and
producing pre-c*m. isnt it?  And I wonder if it's all bodily fluids
like urine?

Lee
c palmer - 16 May 2004 23:32 GMT

This sentence has raised a question that I have never considered before.
It's purely hypothetical, but if a person is HIV positive and has an RP
where there is no ejaculate, does he still need to wear a condom when
having sex? I would imagine that the only way such a person could
transmit the virus would be through an open sore on the penis.

But what about the Cowper's Gland? I think that's still intact and
producing pre-c*m. isn't it? And I wonder if it's all bodily fluids like
urine?
Lee  
-----------------------
unless things have changed since my first aid training, HIV as well as
the STD's travel through the fluids exchanged.  

yes, the cowper's gland is still producing fluid.  the purpose of the
condom was to cover the opening as well of to provide a barrier between
the fluids,  the female condom is suppose to do the same thing.

here's another question for the condom - if the person "leaks" urine
when sexual excited, can he pass on the HIV virus?

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Beverley - 17 May 2004 14:29 GMT
Someone with HIV needs to always use a condom even after a RP!

Did you know that the fastest growing segment of society in the USA who are
HIV positive are our single senior citizens? It's a real problem.
Bev

> This sentence has raised a question that I have never considered before.
> It's purely hypothetical, but if a person is HIV positive and has an RP
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
c palmer - 17 May 2004 19:27 GMT

Did you know that the fastest growing segment of society in the USA who
are HIV positive are our single senior citizens? It's a real problem.
Bev
============

that very true bev - in fact, they did a couple of special reports that
probably need to be brought up here because one would not think of it
terms like this.

in one report, they pointed out that because seniors are not having
babies, they feel they are "safe" and don't take the precautions that
they would have used if they were younger, and hence, the higher HIV
rate.

in another report, they blamed the little blue pill.  that's right - the
little blue pill.  

they went on to explain that the men that were left alive due to natural
dying and the number of females available, that the ones who would
normally not be sexual active, but are - due to the blue pill,  visiting
a lot more than one female and hence the spread of the STD's.

just passing on the info.

and for what's it worth dept.  my mother passed away in 1981 when my dad
was 72.  when asked if he would ever get married again.  his comment
was, "i was 29 when i met your mother, and i wasn't looking to get
married then.  at 72, i'm damn sure ain't looking to get married now"
well, he was friends with quite a few couples and the husbands died off.
the wives were still friends with my father, so at the age of 83, i ask
him how many girl friends he had.  he looked at me and said, "all
together?"  i said, "yeah........"  
he got his hands out and counted them up and looked at me and said, "15"
and i guess the wild thing is the women knew about the other women, but
shared him because nobody got upset.   in fact, when he had the accident
that put him in the hospital at the tender age of 89, i had 6 calls on
my answer machine to go check on him by different women because he
hadn't call them today.  but this is the side of the coin, we either
don't talk about or don't want to know exist.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Steve Kramer - 17 May 2004 21:35 GMT
I hope I can keep 6 women satisfied 40 years from now,

Hell, I hope I can keep me satisfied 40 years from now,

Hell, I hop I can live 40 years.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

> Did you know that the fastest growing segment of society in the USA who
> are HIV positive are our single senior citizens? It's a real problem.
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
al1096@loud.bellsouth.net> - 18 May 2004 00:51 GMT
*I hope I can keep 6 women satisfied 40 years from now,
*
*Hell, I hope I can keep me satisfied 40 years from now,
*
*Hell, I hop I can live 40 years.

Same here!

Al

Please be quiet if replying via email,
flames will be deleted promptly.
I won't even read the whole message...
Steve Kramer - 17 May 2004 01:31 GMT
There is still the cowper gland.  And, I'm not sure about urine.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .07 .05
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

> <al1096@loud.bellsouth.net>> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> sex?  I would imagine that the only way such a person could transmit the
> virus would be through an open sore on the penis.
Lewis Hender - 16 May 2004 16:42 GMT
When I was told I had Prostate cancer last May I was told that at age 67
I would be treated by injections, however the Urologist did refer me to
a Oncologist. This man, a plain speaking old Scot wanted me to have
radiaton. When I was rather hesitant, he said " Get it done and it will
be over with, when the Grim Reaper finally gets you it will be for
something else". I took his advice and have completed my treaments, he
also said I would be impotent and I sure was after 6 months of hormone
pills but now I,m waking up with little woodies and I feel more life
there than I have for the last 5 years. Maybe I'll try to suprise the
wife one of these nights. This might be all in my head but if I can with
a little help from vitamin Viagra its worth a try.
Cheers  Lewis Hender.
olfart - 16 May 2004 18:55 GMT
> When I was told I had Prostate cancer last May I was told that at age 67
> I would be treated by injections, however the Urologist did refer me to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> a little help from vitamin Viagra its worth a try.
> Cheers  Lewis Hender.

Way to go Lewis.
Your positive thinking is a big part of recovery too.
Age - 69
8/12/02 - PSA 3.7
10/13/03 - PSA 4.69
11/11/03 - PSA 4.8
11/18/03 - Biopsy - 10 cores
one core-25% of core-Gleason 4+4=8
all other cores benign tissue
12/10/03 - Consult - Oncologist
12/16/03 - Consult - Radiation Oncologist
Treatment Plan - Northeast Ga Cancer Center
HT - started 12/17/03 - Eulixen & Lupron (2nd 4 mo Lupron-4/26)
2/10/04 - Started - Flowmax and Megastrol
Radiation - IMRT to begin 3/30/04 - 42 treatments
C. Paul Williams, MD - 16 May 2004 11:35 GMT
Curtis,  Your post is thoughtful and thought provoking.
Unfortunately, the bottom line is that there is no one best treatment
for the disease.  I know you know this...you've been one of the most
active members of the group and we ask the same questions of all
newcomers.  What is your PSA, stage, age, general medical condition,
Gleason score, etc?  The other major problem is that no one can tell
us which treatment is most successful.  All of the treatments work
well for patients in the early stages of the disease...10 year disease
free survival is virtually identical for surgery,  cryotherapy, and
the various flavors of radiotherapy.  But how about 15 years?  20?
30?  That data is just not there.  The complications and side effects
of the various treatments also need to come into play...incontinence,
impotence, etc.
I don't believe there is a conspiracy to push any one flavor of
treatment on an unsuspecting public, but I know from personal
experience that doctors can believe passionately in the treatment they
are expert at providing.  Sometimes, that enthusiasm results in an
incomplete exploration of all the options for each patient.  I believe
that some of the responsibility rests with the patient and their loved
ones...they need to be proactive, do research, and ask the right
questions.  That is easier said than done for people who have no
medical background or experience.  I don't think big business has
corrupted the process...there is just no profit margin like there is
for all the drugs you see advertised on the nightly news.  Viagra,
Lipitor, "the little purple pill", etc...  If there is a
pharmaceutical product discovered that prevents or treats prostate Ca
though, watch out...
Good luck.  CPW
c palmer - 16 May 2004 13:52 GMT

thank you dr. c. paul for your kind words.

i agree that all the treatments available have proven to have worked but
hopefully, as you put it so well, in 15, 20, 30 years.  the data wasn't
there.  what happens if that is where we are now, looking at it from the
perspective year of 2034.  you can just about bet that there will be
some clear cut decisions at that time as to what treatment is better and
probably a few more treatments that we haven't even heard of yet.  

when you wrote:
"I know from personal experience that doctors can believe passionately
in the treatment they are expert at providing."

i agree 100% with you on that.  i just wish there was a way that the
doctors could have some kind of network that after evaluating a patient,
could steer them toward to the best doctor with the expert skill in
their field to do the treatment.  i know that this probably goes against
what we say when we tell the person with the pca to research and make
the best decision based on what they have found out because it should be
the patient's choice, even though in this case, the doctor may know
what's best for the patient because they are the expert at what they are
providing.

i wish i could agree with you that big business hasn't stuck their
finger in the medical business but they have.  they have done it by
advertising on tv.  getting the patient to demand that their doctor
write the script for a particular medicine when in fact, there may have
been another medicine that would have been twice as effective, but the
doctor writes the script for the patients request and doesn't try to
change their mind, because it might instill a distrust.  

if one were to look at the cost it takes to put one commercial on each
of the cable channels, the national tv channels, it is in the millions
and the drug company isn't doing it as a public service.

when one looks at the robotic arm used for the LRP.  they are going to
have to get customers for that unit in order to pay for it.  the robotic
arm has to earn it's keep.  it takes up space and needs to be in use, so
they do a patient awareness for it.  now, i don't know if this is good
or bad, because advertising isn't necessary a bad thing.  all i pointing
out is that big business does have their finger in the medical pie.

and i definitely agree with you if they come out with a pill to prevent
pca or to cure pca - watch out.

ps. for what it's worth.  i saw a study on air pollution and rats.  city
rats that were exposed for 30 days vs country rats and city rats exposed
to same air, but with hepa filters.  there was a change in the city rat
(with no filter) DNA that mutated that wasn't part of either parent.
scientists didn't know what this means because the altered DNA didn't
cause any changes they could see or were aware of, but it does make one
wonder if pca could be triggered by the altering of DNA from
environmental sources.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Doug Taylor - 18 May 2004 15:32 GMT
>when one looks at the robotic arm used for the LRP.  they are going to
>have to get customers for that unit in order to pay for it.  the robotic
>arm has to earn it's keep.  

To recap previously posted info:

I was dx'd in October, 2002.  During the month long freakout of
deciding what to do, I was referred for consultation to a 55 year old
local oncologist who himself was treated for PCa 2 years previously.
Who better to discuss treatment with:  a cancer Dr. who had PCa!  Talk
about putting your money where your mouth is.  ;-)

He was 53 when diagnosed with confined Gleason 6 cancer (same as me;
but a year older).  He considered the usual:  surgery, EBRT, seeds.
All 3 had major disadvantages for him, partly because of his passion
for riding horses.  Seeds were out because he wouldn't be able to sit
on his horse for many months; surgery was suspect because of risk of
incontinence, not fun for equestrians; EBRT did not have enough long
term assurance of cure.  He decided on IMRT, which could be described
as 3D conforming EBRT on steroids.  Getting this treatment
necessitated his moving to NYC for 5 weeks in order to get the
treatment at Memorial Sloan Kettering, the only place then available
in NY State.  As Dr., he could afford to do this.

As a small businessman running my own show, I could not.  He therefore
advised me to undergo surgery due to my age.  I flip flopped between
surgery and EBRT before finally making an appointment to be prepped
for EBRT (with a Dr. not associated with the oncologist).  As a
bicycle racer, seeds were out, and if an equestrian rejected surgery
due to risk of incontinence, how about a bike racer?

About a week before the EBRT prep appointment, the oncologist called
my office.  His Medical Group had decided to make the investment to
acquire the software, hardware, and support staff for IMRT.  He
referred me to the radiation oncologist in his Group, and in February
'03 I became the first patient in my small town to undergo IMRT
treatment.   Since me, many patients have elected IMRT with this
Group.

The point of all this is that the investment into IMRT was huge for
the Medical Group, and they need patients to pay for it same as the
robo-arm Curtis mentions.  But I think there is a positive message as
well.  They didn't make the investment to make money; they made the
investment because they thought the technology was cutting edge, would
better serve their patients, AND would eventually more than pay for
itself.  Your basic Win-Win proposition.  
--dt
Doug Taylor - 18 May 2004 17:12 GMT
> They didn't make the investment to make money;

Whoops.  Of course I meant "only" to make money.
--dt
Ron Carter - 16 May 2004 15:30 GMT
I, too, doubt that there is a "conspiracy," but I do think there are
efforts by corporations, hospitals, treatment centers, and others to
promote their particular treatments and that those efforts often
overstate the case.  Theraseed, for instance, has mounted an
advertising campaign to promote brachytherapy.  The ads claim that
studies show "cure" rates equalling or exceeding those for surgery.
Well, some studies do show that (or, at least, suggest it).  Others
don't.  The data is not conclusive.  But if you were newly diagnosed
and searching for a cure and not inclined to do much research, you'd
be led to believe that brachytherapy results are always equal to or
better than results from surgery and that there are almost no side
effects (which is not true either).  Right now, I think it's
irresponsible to use advertising to promote treatments unless the
advertising is honest, forthright, and factual.  (And as an
advertising copywriter, I know that's never going to be the case.)

> Curtis,  Your post is thoughtful and thought provoking.
> Unfortunately, the bottom line is that there is no one best treatment
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> though, watch out...
> Good luck.  CPW
 
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