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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2004

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PAUL KRAUSE - 27 Feb 2004 20:18 GMT
are there any stats as the percentage of men who have surgery for the
complete removal of the prostate and the doctor who perform the surgery
states ' that they got all of the cancer, that it was retained with in
the prostate', and the psa rises to indicate cancer is still in the
area? i hope this makes sense. thank-you  paul
jimhoney - 27 Feb 2004 21:43 GMT
> are there any stats as the percentage of men who have surgery for the
> complete removal of the prostate and the doctor who perform the surgery
> states ' that they got all of the cancer, that it was retained with in
> the prostate', and the psa rises to indicate cancer is still in the
> area? i hope this makes sense. thank-you  paul

I believe that is the case with the results Dr. Walsh describes on pages
295-6 of his book.  The undetectable PSA rate at 10 years after RRP was 80
percent for men who had surgery between 1989 and 1992.  He expects that
number to rise.  This is for Johns Hopkins patients.

Do you really mean "in the area"?  Dr. Walsh says, "at ten years, only 6
percent of the men developed a recurrence of cancer at the surgical site; at
fifteen years, no one else had a similar local recurrence.  Thus, radical
prostatectomy was very effective at controlling the local disease, and the
reason the other men had a recurrence was that the cancer had spread to
distant sites (like the bone) before surgery, in the form of invisible,
impossible-to-detect distant metastases."

jimhoney
Leonard Evens - 27 Feb 2004 22:07 GMT
> are there any stats as the percentage of men who have surgery for the
> complete removal of the prostate and the doctor who perform the surgery
> states ' that they got all of the cancer, that it was retained with in
> the prostate', and the psa rises to indicate cancer is still in the
> area? i hope this makes sense. thank-you  paul

It definitely makes sense, and there are a variety of studies about this
with different results.

If you go to the Sloan Kettering web site, www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/403.cfm
you will find a nomogram which allows you to put in the details of your
diagnosis and post surgical pathology report.   In my case, for example,
in which my surgeon reported something much like what you say,  it says
that after 7 years the likelihood of non-progression (defined as
increase in PSA or other evidence of metastasis) is 97 percent plus or
minus 8 percent.  What that means is that their best estimate is 97
percent, but it could be as low as 89 percent or as high as 100 percent.

This is based on studies of large numbers of men at many different
prostate cancer centers.   It is possible that less qualified surgeons
might not have as good results.   Also, after 7 years, some small number
of additional men will show progression, so the percentages will go down
a bit.   Unfortunately, with this disease you can never be absolutely
certain you are home free, but with a percentage in the 90s at 7 years,
you would be doing about as well as you can expect.  Many of us would
settle for a much lower estimate and try to stop worrying.

Of course, the prediction is based on details like Gleason score,
whether or not the cancer was contained, presurgical PSA, etc.

I like the Sloan Kettering results because they are more optimistic than
some others but mostly because the people doing the research seem to be
among the leaders in the field, and the research seems to be very solid.

PS.  You may have to do a bit of fiddling with the online calculator to
find the post-surgical projections.
Steve Kramer - 28 Feb 2004 02:00 GMT
Happens all the time.  The doctors never really know if they got it all.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

> are there any stats as the percentage of men who have surgery for the
> complete removal of the prostate and the doctor who perform the surgery
> states ' that they got all of the cancer, that it was retained with in
> the prostate', and the psa rises to indicate cancer is still in the
> area? i hope this makes sense. thank-you  paul
jk - 28 Feb 2004 05:18 GMT
> are there any stats as the percentage of men who have surgery for the
> complete removal of the prostate and the doctor who perform the surgery
> states ' that they got all of the cancer, that it was retained with in
> the prostate', and the psa rises to indicate cancer is still in the
> area? i hope this makes sense. thank-you  paul

 It's amazing how we can't ever be happy with even the best of news we get
about this isn't it? "Sorry sir but it's spread all over the damn place and
it looks like you'll be dead in a week"..... as opposed to... " it was
completely contained, we got it all, you're most likely cured".  Even those
of us with undetectable PSA's for years get that knot in the stomach as they
approach the PSA test.

Signature

JK Sinrod NY
Sinrod Stained Glass
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

David S - 29 Feb 2004 12:53 GMT
   I honestly try not to worry about it.  But there are times that the
though of reoccurrence, or maybe cancer in a different site (colon for
example), bothers me.
   When I was younger a friend of mine died of cancer.  He was treated at
the Cleveland Clinic, it doesn't get better than that, but they could never
find the primary site.  Rest in peace Carl.
   Have a good day everyone.
   Thank you.
David S.

> > are there any stats as the percentage of men who have surgery for the
> > complete removal of the prostate and the doctor who perform the surgery
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> of us with undetectable PSA's for years get that knot in the stomach as they
> approach the PSA test.
 
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