Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / November 2008
High dose vitamin C therapy.
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Old Bill - 30 Oct 2008 19:52 GMT The therapy of high dose vitaminC [ascorbic acid] has been rousing controversy since Linus Pauling first wrote about it over 30 years ago, and a number of messages on this newsgroup have been highly critical whenever the subject has been raised.Here is some more information about it which you may not be aware of.
[QUOTE]
"Dr Ewan Cameron ... ... ... has during the past two years treated over two hundred terminal cancer patients with ascorbic acid alone.He has usually given the patient ten grams of ascorbic acid by intravenous infusion over a period of about ten days. The patients are usually by that time well enough to go home,and they continue to receive about ten grams by mouth. Dr Cameron is now preparing a paper describing his experience with the first fifty patients. He has reported to me that a small fraction, perhaps ten per cent of the patients appear to have complete remission of the disease.Also in a small fraction of the patients,perhaps less than ten per cent, the cancerous growth seems to react in a striking way to the administration of the ascorbic acid,with walling-off and necrosis of the tumor. With most of the patients the principal effect that Dr Cameron has observed is a great decrease in the amount of pain suffered and a greatly increased sense of well-being,with disappearance of cachexia,restoration of appetite,and return of the ability to carry on a normal life. Some of the patients have, after a period of some months,suddenly become very seriously ill dying in a day or two. Dr Cameron has reported on the decrease in pain,which permits patients to stop taking morphine, ... ... ... ... ... ".
[END QUOTE]
Dr Ewan Cameron worked at the Vale of Leven District General Hospital, Scotland, where he was senior consultant surgeon.
The above quotation comes from a copy of a letter from Linus Paulin to Lewis Thomas, President of Memorial Sloane-Kettering Research Center, asking for a research study to be carried out into the use of ascorbic acid as a means of decreasing the incidence of cancer and also treating cancer.The letter runs to about three and a half pages and can be seen through this link
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/MM/B/B/G/L/_/mmbbgl.pdf
Pauling's request to Thomas was rejected. No studies were conducted.
A much fuller statement about vitamin C was written by Cameron and Pauling together, but it is long and in parts technical.It includes a table of all the cancers treated compared witha control group of 1000 patients The conclusion is good and not too technical.This link will take you there:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2QduA19d_X8C&pg=PA1361&lpg=PA1361&dq=ewan+cam eron&source=web&ots=ISDmx8gXGq&sig=QLJRnTwZGks1_6GwCc-yl76hp1M&hl=en&sa=X&oi=boo k_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA1415,M1
The letter and paper which I have quoted are from the 1970's and it could be argued that many important advances have been made over the last 30 years which now supersede Vitamin C therapy which in any case was never a part of mainstream medicine. Well,the last bit about mainstream medicine may be true, but I am not so sure about the first bit. Here's one reason:
Dr Cameron breaches the final taboo, Death and the mode of dying:- "Dr Cameron has reported on the decrease in pain,which permits patients to stop taking morphine ...".
Has that been superseded? Sadly no.Terminal cancer patients still have morphine.
Let's take another look:
"...He has usually given the patient ten grams of ascorbic acid by intravenous infusion over a period of about ten days. The patients are usually by that time well enough to go home ..." " ...a great decrease in the amount of pain suffered ..." " ...a greatly increased sense of well-being, ..." "....disappearance of cachexia ..." "...restoration of appetite ..." "...return of the ability to carry on a normal life ..."
{cachexia means 'wasting']
These were not newly diagnosed patients,they were terminal patients. "... patients who in the opinion of at least two independent clinicians the continuance of any conventional form of treatment would offer no benefit. ... " They had nothing to lose, they had everything to gain, and some of them did.
I do not think that it matters that this was thirty years ago. Here you have a doctor who sees his terminally ill patients rising from their death beds and going home. Patients, for whom the continuance of any conventional form of treatment would offer no benefit, miraculously recovering and in a few days going home.
Sooner or later most came back but even then their pain had greatly decreased and they did not need morphine.
Despite the criticisms which vitaminC therapy has met over the years,it is not universal criticism.The therapy is used in various clinics around the world,and its usage is increasing.
Many doctors use it - orthodox practitioners not back-street snake oil pedlars, not just Naturopaths and Medical Herbalists, but orthodox medical practioners, some of them distinguished, and they practice in many countries.
This link will show a list of some of the practioners and organisations all over the world who use this therapy: [I do not know how up-to-date it is]
http://www.canceraction.org.gg/index2.htm [hint: on the banner on the left click on "in extremis"]
Some of the names are well-known e.g. Dr Charles Simone. He is an M.D. and also the rare Master of Medical Science [MMS].He is an international consultant and was called in as consultant for President Ronald Reagan's colon cancer. He later received this message:
"Nancy joins me in sending you our best wishes for the success of your vital work. Ronald Reagan, President.".
When the most powerful man in the world falls ill,he gets the best physician to treat him. He got Dr Simone; Dr Simone also practices vitamin C therapy, prescribing Vitamin C = 350 to 6,000 mg per day as part of his ten-point plan.
http://www.drsimone.com/report.htm
[scroll down to Table 2.]
Such people realize the importance nourishment has for good health,and they recognise that there are other successful therapies available which are not so damaging as those that mainstream medicine has to offer even today.
"The American Dr Hugh Riordan M.D. is probably the world expert on this approach. His institute, The Center for the Improvement of Human Functioning, has just completed a 10 year research project on high dose intravenous C and cancer, and his patented method recently underwent Phase I clinical trials at the University of Nebraska medical school hospital. These trials have established the non-toxicity of this treatment for cancer, and Dr Riordan is now proceeding with a Phase II clinical trial, under the auspices of the National Institutes of Health, using therapeutic doses of vitamin C on Renal Adenoma." [see canceraction above].
I hope that this message and links are of interest to you, and will give a better understanding of this subject. I am not a doctor nor do I have any medical qualifications. I am here as a patient,but everything I have quoted comes from reliable sources not from charlatans.
Always consult your doctor,but consult sensibly from an informed position.The internet is an instrument of research only available widely in recent years,and is a means by which Joe Public can reach the wisdom of the world like never before.He can also be beguiled by charlatans. Judge carefully and be better informed.
Best Wishes, Old Bill.
J - 31 Oct 2008 00:01 GMT > The therapy of high dose vitaminC [ascorbic acid] > has been rousing controversy Not any more,. You're a loonie and pita. J
ALICIA PARKER - 01 Nov 2008 14:56 GMT J you're the loonie, it won't be long till you contract the big C, J..., and we will see if you remember vit c.
> > The therapy of high dose vitaminC [ascorbic acid] > > has been rousing controversy > > Not any more,. You're a loonie and pita. > J Tranregard - 02 Nov 2008 05:26 GMT ALICIA PARKER:
> J you're the loonie, it won't be long till you contract the big C, J..., and > we will see if you remember vit c. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Not any more,. You're a loonie and pita. >> J Livon Labs makes an oral Vit C that is more bioavailable than intravenous infusions.
Old Bill - 08 Nov 2008 18:33 GMT |J you're the loonie, it won't be long till you contract the big C, J..., and | we will see if you remember vit c. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | > Not any more,. You're a loonie and pita. | > J I hope that does not happen,Al, and I'm sure you do too. Just pay not attention to her is best. Besides,my message was not for her because I know from experience what her "knee-jerk" reaction to this subject is. We have over 500 subscribers to this newsgroup| most of whom never write in; what Alex once aptly described as "The Silent Majority".If any of them ever wanted to know something about high dose vitaminC therapy I hope they will have read my message with interest.
Best Wishes, Old Bill.
J - 08 Nov 2008 20:34 GMT > Just pay not attention to her is best. > Besides,my message was not for her because I know from [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to know something about high dose vitaminC therapy > I hope they will have read my message with interest. If you knew 500 subscribers, you'd be emailing them, instead of posting for them to read. Since you brought up the topic, the clinical trial run by Cameron.
Cameron's patients were started on vitamin C when he labeled them "untreatable" by other methods, and their subsequent survival was compared to the survival of the "control" patients after they were labeled untreatable by their doctors. DeWys reasoned that if the two groups were comparable, the lengths of time from entry into the hospital to being labeled untreatable should be equivalent in both groups. However, he found that Cameron's patients were labeled untreatable much earlier in the course of their disease which means that they entered the hospital before they were as sick as the other doctors' patients and would naturally be expected to live longer. He "fudged" the clinical trial by having them have better care earlier and longer. Not the Vitamin C.
1994, Linus Pauling, PhD died of prostate cancer at age 93.
The only value IV Vitamin C has is to sell books to the desperate and naive. J
Vern - 10 Nov 2008 04:49 GMT The only value IV Vitamin C has is to sell books to the desperate and naive.
> J In case no one has noticed, the medical establishment has a dismal record of solving the cancer problem and finding a cure. Intolerant attitudes and closed-minded thinking about new approaches are not helpful.
Old Bill - 19 Nov 2008 21:57 GMT [snip]
| | If you knew 500 subscribers, you'd be emailing them, instead of posting for
| them to read. | Since you brought up the topic, the clinical trial run by Cameron. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | He "fudged" the clinical trial by having them have better care earlier and | longer. Not the Vitamin C. [snip]
|| J Oh dear, I'm getting slow. Sent on the 8th and only now it hits me. I should have guessed - delete that - I should have *known*. All the messages you've been sending and all the links you've flooded us with,yet this one has no named source. So please allow me to name it:
it's Quackwatch and your old mentor Barrett. You made a straight lift. No wonder you kept mum about the source.
Here's some interesting facts about this man,courtesy of Ilena Rosenthall,whom I thank:
http://www.humanticsfoundation.com/quackwatchwatch.htm
You can read about his 'credibility',and I guess yours is in the same pot.
Old Bill
J - 20 Nov 2008 01:52 GMT > Oh dear, I'm getting slow. Sent on the 8th and only now it hits me. > I should have guessed - delete that - I should have *known*. > All the messages you've been sending and all the links you've > flooded us with,yet this one has no named source. > So please allow me to name it: I have oither information and other sources. I've wasted enough time on this topic. Every country has its quack doctors. Put an ad in several major newspapers that you're looking for high dose IV injections of Vitamin C and theylll find you. Or someone who knows who will, will contact you. Good luck with it. J
Old Bill - 20 Nov 2008 21:09 GMT | > Oh dear, I'm getting slow. Sent on the 8th and only now it hits me. | > I should have guessed - delete that - I should have *known*. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | I have oither information and other sources. I've wasted enough time on this | topic. You mean you've wasted everyone else's time with your ad hominem blather, and it's got you nowhere.
| Every country has its quack doctors. So does this newsgroup.
Put an ad in several major newspapers that
| you're looking for high dose IV injections of Vitamin C and they'll find you.
No need for that foolhardy action at all. I gave a list in my message of physicians who can give this therapy. Qualified MD's some of them eminent and of international renown. They have faith in their therapies,and I'll let you into a little secret -- I'd sooner believe them than you.
| Or someone who knows who will, will contact you. | Good luck with it. | J Thank you for that sentiment. As I have no intention of following your stupid "advice" it does not apply.
Old Bill.
J - 21 Nov 2008 09:54 GMT > of physicians who can give this therapy. > Qualified MD's some of them eminent > and of international renown. Have a relative advise, this group, when your case is cited in PubMed www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov We may have a long wait. J For the record, Bill first asked about MGUS, August, 2006, as follows
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer From: J Local: Tues, Aug 29 2006 7:22 pm Subject: Re: The M protein
"Bill Thomas,Cardiff,UK" wrote:
> Question from a newbie.I carry the M protein. > Monoclonal Gammopathy of Undetermined Significance. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > All replies acknowledged. > Thanks.
> Bill Thomas, > Cardiff, UK. Here's what the myeloma foundation says about it http://www.multiplemyeloma.org/about_myeloma/2.06.asp MGUS is a common condition where a monoclonal protein is present. However, there are no symptoms, other criteria for myeloma diagnosis are absent, and no cause for the increased protein can be identified. MGUS occurs in about 1% of the general population and in about 3% of normal individuals over 70 years of age. MGUS itself is harmless but over many years approximately 16% of individuals with MGUS will progress to a malignant plasma cell disorder. [from the archives] J
Outcome of myeloma, overall and by stage As with many other types of cancer, the outcome depends on how advanced your cancer is when it is diagnosed. In other words, the stage of your myeloma. Another important factor in myeloma is your age and fitness, and the type of treatment you have. There are some very intensive treatments available for myeloma and you have to be well enough to get through them if your doctor is going to consider them for you. Doctors do not discriminate on grounds of age it really is your fitness that is the issue.
Overall, about 55 out of every 100 people (55%) diagnosed with myeloma in England and Wales live for at least a year after diagnosis. About 23 out of every 100 (23%) live for at least 5 years. And about 12 live for at least 10 years.
Like all survival statistics, these relate to people diagnosed some time ago - in this case, up to 2001. The picture may have improved since then. Figures from another source say that about 29 out of every 100 people diagnosed will live for at least 5 years. Another source says that even after the myeloma has been treated and then come back again, about 22 out of every 100 live for at least another 5 years after this first relapse.
Remember myeloma can be very variable in how it behaves. In some people, it develops very slowly and so the prognosis will be better. You really need to discuss this with your own specialist. It may be a while before your doctors can say how your myeloma is likely to behave. They will have to see how things go and how the disease responds to treatment before making an educated guess at your likely outlook.
If you are under 70 and well enough for intensive treatment, the picture is better. At least half of this group (50%) will live for at least 5 years. About 20 out of every 100 of them will live for at least 10 years.
Other factors affecting outcome
There are other factors that can affect your prognosis, apart from the stage of your cancer. One consideration is how well you are overall. Doctors call this your performance status. You may see this written PS. A score of 0 means you are completely able to look after yourself. A score of 1 means you can do most things for yourself, but need some help. The scores continue to go up, depending on how much help you need. This is relevant to survival because overall, the fitter people are, the better able they are to withstand their cancer and treatment. This is particularly important in myeloma because fitter patients can withstand more intensive treatment.
There are several blood tests that have significance for the likely development of your myeloma. Your specialist will talk you through these. One test is called beta 2 microglobulin. A low level of this means your myeloma is less active and so is likely to develop more slowly. Another test is called serum albumin a higher level for this is linked to a better outlook. There are many other tests, including chromosome tests.
It is a good sign if your myeloma responds well to treatment and goes into complete remission. This means that there is no clinical sign of your disease and no longer any abnormal immunoglobulin in your blood or urine. Remission can last for months or years, but unfortunately the myeloma is likely to come back eventually and need further treatment. http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=11279
Old Bill - 21 Nov 2008 22:04 GMT 'J' is attempting to suppress free discussion. [see below]
| > of physicians who can give this therapy. | > Qualified MD's some of them eminent [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | We may have a long wait. | J You're not hooking me on this one.It has nothing to do with high-dose vitamin C therapy. You are Off Topic.
| For the record, Bill first asked about MGUS, August, 2006, as follows This has nothing to do with High-dose vitaminC therapy. You are Off Topic.
Besides, my message is already"on the record" for all to read and has been since I wrote it.
| Here's what the myeloma foundation says about it [snip]
All this is Off Topic. It has nothing to do with high-dose vitaminC therapy.
What is more this is a typical 'J' ploy: when you cannot win then digress to divert the thread into a safer area. It is an attempt to suppress free discussion. I'm not the only one to get the measure of this subscriber although it has taken time. Here is something I've told you before, J,
When you're in a hole, stop digging.
Try to remember it this time.
Old Bill
J - 22 Nov 2008 10:18 GMT > 'J' is attempting to suppress free discussion. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Old Bill Having trouble with me asking you to have your doctor or doctors document your case (and Vit C treatment and outcome) at www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov ?
J
Old Bill - 22 Nov 2008 19:28 GMT | > 'J' is attempting to suppress free discussion. | > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | J Just to remind you, this is the topic:
" Here you have a doctor who sees his terminally ill patients rising from their death beds and going home. Patients, for whom the continuance of any conventional form of treatment would offer no benefit, miraculously recovering and in a few days going home."
You have not replied to it once.
Old Bill
[End of Thread]
J - 21 Nov 2008 09:57 GMT Recruiting is now taking place for certain clinical trials on cancer and vitamin C.
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/search?term=cancer+AND+vitamin+C&submit=Search
CiinicalTrials.gov provides regularly updated information about federally and privately supported clinical research in human volunteers.
csm7532@hotmail.com - 10 Nov 2008 15:17 GMT > |J you're the loonie, it won't be long till you contract the big C, J..., > and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Best Wishes, > Old Bill. You ignore a vicious, criminal troll and use Usenet to reach a large group, some of whom may be interested in your topic? Any further show of sense, and your frequent posting privileges will be revoked! FWIW, I don't have any great faith in the Vit C treatments, but haven't written it off either. The "conventional" pros may not have a great success rate fighting cancer (that's open to debate), but even if not, it doesn't mean "alternatives" get automatic authority.
--- CSM
Old Bill - 11 Nov 2008 18:27 GMT On Nov 8, 11:33 am, "Old Bill" <matb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "ALICIA PARKER" <APA...@AOL.COM> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > |news:490A4AB1.A0FAD4C@execulink.com... > | > Old Bill wrote:
> | > Not any more,. You're a loonie and pita. > | > J > > > Best Wishes, > Old Bill. You ignore a vicious, criminal troll and use Usenet to reach a large group, some of whom may be interested in your topic? Any further show of sense, and your frequent posting privileges will be revoked! --- CSM
Guilty M'lud,her reply was intellectually bankrupt, a result of the credibility crunch. Old Bill
csm7532@hotmail.com - 14 Nov 2008 15:00 GMT > <csm7...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > a result of the credibility crunch. > Old Bill I'll let you off with a caution, and a fine of 10 (re)pence.
I went so far as to look at J's reply. She gets excited about there being crime in Denver (where I don't actually live or work---I do both in 'burbs) that I have not personally prevented. What a twit! For the record, I do not work in law enforcement, and yet (unfathomably to the very thick-witted) I *do* have objections to criminal behavior. Every community I've lived in has had crime, some worse than others, and I've never hooked or ventilated a perp! Who'd have thought? That's almost as bizarre as someone enjoying ice cream but not working at Breyers! When I first joined this group, I thought she was a bit of a mother hen, but the longer I've been here, the worse she's looked. Vicious, stupid, criminal, and yet still popular. I guess it proves how easily people can overlook serious character flaws at times.
--- CSM
sheder1 - 15 Nov 2008 15:01 GMT On Nov 14, 10:00 am, csm7...@hotmail.com wrote:
' When I first joined this group, I thought she was a bit of a mother hen, but the longer I've been here, the worse she's looked. Vicious, stupid, criminal, and yet still popular. I guess it proves how easily people can overlook serious character flaws at times. ' You left out, "at times, dangerous !"
J - 15 Nov 2008 16:03 GMT > You left out, "at times, dangerous !" sheder aka turletrot dishonest withholding information...
------- Original Message -------- Subject: The Strife is Over........ Date: 19 Sep 2005 02:45:46 -0700 From: "turtletrot1" <munged> Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
Franzi died Sunday evening, 18 September 2005 at 7:45 of the recurrent rectal cancer. He had been undergoing chemo (FOLFOX7) and the CEA count was falling. But he had to be in the less than 5% who would have a perforation in the colon from the Avastin. The chemo had to stop and the CEA rose rapidly. He was being nourished by TPN and because of the impact on the immune system from the chemo, he developed a massive infection behind the port. In spite of a series of strong antibiotics, the infection could not be stopped. When they operated to remove the port, his heart went crazy. And so, after a bout of almost 3 weeks, his heart gave out. We appreciate the insight we received from Seph, J, and Mike.
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Results of side effects of treatments for colorectal cancer Date: 28 Sep 2005 11:04:41 -0700 From: "turtletrot1" <munged> Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
My Franzi had recurrent rectal cancer. Opted for FOLFOX7. He was one of the unlucky ones who developed a preforation in the colon from Avastin. (He already had a sigmoid colostomy) To heal the colon, he had a port, and TPN for nutrition. Gained strenth, walked up and down hospital hallways and came home. Then he ran a high fever and we went back to hospital. Yeast in blood. Staph again. Then MD's decided that port must be infected. It was. In the OR to remove the port, his heart went into atrial frib...He went to ICU and then was started on "real food" in addition to the TPN. Vomited first meal, aspirated and they feared pneumonia. From then on, in 3 weeks, with about 5 different antibiotics, various heart medicines, various blood tests and x-rays, he gave up the battle. The MD put on the death certificate pulminary failure and pneumonia, but his lungs were clear. He really had congestive heart failure.His heart was just unable to pump the blood to the extremeties the day he died. He only had pain and morphine the last 3 days. And only 2 mg. First it was every 4 hours, but that did not last long enough, so it was changed to every 3 hours, and he had no further discomfort. He seldom opened his eyes. The day he died, at about 2:30 p.m. he really opened his eyes and reached for me as I was leaning over him. After that he never really woke again. My daughter and I said Good night to him as we had every evening, and said we would see him early in the morning. At about 8:00 p.m. the hospital called and told me he was gone. The nurse was hanging a new IV antibiotic when he took a deep breath, and that was all. Although I am so lost without him, I am grateful that he was spared a long agonizing death with the server pain that cancer can bring. God is good, although we always do not understand the way He works. If he had not opted for the FOLFOX7 and let nature take it's course, would we have had more good times together...who knows. And what would the end have been like. I thought I would share this with you, and those of you opting for Avastin. Consider carefully the side effects. Make informed decisions.
sheder1 - 16 Nov 2008 14:04 GMT > > You left out, "at times, dangerous !" > > sheder aka turletrot dishonest withholding information... Withholding what? What do you need to know......or care about ?
J - 16 Nov 2008 23:54 GMT > > > You left out, "at times, dangerous !" > > > > sheder aka turletrot dishonest withholding information... > > Withholding what? What do you need to know.... ? The reposts spoke for themselves. Nothing more at this time. J
sheder1 - 17 Nov 2008 14:12 GMT > > > > You left out, "at times, dangerous !" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Nothing more at this time. > J I went back and read.....still missing your point. Because I only wrote about Franzi and not my own CA history? Or because I appreciate some of what you do. I do still belive you can be dangerous when you advise others to second guess their doctors in line with something you have found/read from other newsgroups. Infomation is one thing. Suggesting is something else again.
J - 12 Nov 2008 00:37 GMT > OYou ignore a vicious, criminal troll a Worried about criminals? Work on your own community. http://www.fortcollinsnow.com/article/20080722/NEWS/834418312/0/FRONTPAGE&parent profile=
[photo shown] Tuesday, July 22, 2008 Sheriff's Office Arrests Man Accused of Assaulting Minors The Larimer County Sheriffs Department has arrested a Denver man, Matthew Bynum, on counts of sexual assault on children, Internet luring of a child, and of contributing to the delinquency of minors. Bynum fled to Canada when the allegations surfaced, but with the help of Canadian law enforcement,
http://www.metro-denvercrimestoppers.com/fbi_most.html Metro Denver Crime Stoppers
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/co/denver/crime/
Denver violent crimes Population: 554,636 MURDER RAPE ROBBERY ASSAULT REPORTED TOTAL 87 244 1,443 2,721
http://www.denverpost.com/denvercrimereport FBI 2006-2007 crime statistics | Denver Homicides | Colorado Registered Sex Offenders | Denver Crime Report
J
|
|
|