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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / May 2008Not The Iron
"We know it's not the iron. We don't know what causes these diseases. We use iron chelating agents for these different diseases." I .. think it IS the iron .. but that's just .. me .. http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/120/6/490 Iron-Chelating Agents in Non-Iron Overload Conditions Rheumatoid Arthritis Anthracycline Cardiac Poisoning Reperfusion Injury Antiproliferative Effects Solid Tumors Hematologic Malignancies Antiprotozoal Activity Aluminum Chelation Renal Failure Alzheimer Disease Myelofibrosis and Myelodysplastic Syndrome Multiple Sclerosis Drug-induced Lung Injury Immunomodulatory Properties and Transplant Rejection Preservation of Organs for Transplant Glomerulonephritis Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk No, you are wrong. It is not the iron. It is the affinity for the metals that may include iron. For example, aluminum in Alzheimer's. I suggest that you in your Health Research Analyst mode consider actually reading the details. Your stroke of genius was simply a stroke. > "We know it's not the iron. We don't know what causes these diseases. > We use iron chelating agents for these different diseases." [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Preservation of Organs for Transplant > Glomerulonephritis No, you are wrong. It is not the iron. << Now .. you specifically said .. "you are wrong".. Now that statement means to ME an unwillingness to accept a simple medical study for what it is .. A study which shows CLEARLY they use the regimen / treatment OF "iron binding drugs" / agents in different diseases of unknown cause. Because it works simply because it works. Now you SAY it doesn't .. or more precisely .. "NOT BECAUSE OF THE IRON!!" Why would you say that .. ? You believe there are ENOUGH studies mentioning aluminum in all the diseases mentioned ? Preservation of Organs for Transplant How about that one .. ? Targeting aluminum in that tooooo .. ? Multiple sclerosis .. ? Rheumatoid Arthritis .. ? Anthracycline Cardiac Poisoning .. ? Reperfusion Injury .. ? Antiproliferative Effects .. ? Solid Tumors .. ? Hematologic Malignancies .. ? Antiprotozoal Activity .. ? Aluminum Chelation Renal Failure .. ? Alzheimer Disease Myelofibrosis and Myelodysplastic Syndrome .. ? Multiple Sclerosis .. ? Drug-induced Lung Injury Immunomodulatory Properties and Transplant Rejection .. ? Preservation of Organs for Transplant .. ? Glomerulonephritis .. ? They are targeting IRON. IE: "iron MRI of deep matter in Multiple Sclerosis" They SAY .. just like you .. "it isn't the iron even though we have no idea what it is .. it is not the iron even though we don't know what it is it is not the iron .. for sure .. itisnottheiron ..".. but studies show SPECIFIC targeting of iron in those different diseases BY other researchers and drugs. Those are "Iron-Chelating Agents" used in diseases of unknown origin. PERIOD .. You have ONE .. study which mentions .. aluminum .. ? One study .. ? You tell a guy with say .. ---- .. who is peeing himself and attempting to pet his dog but can't "don't go anywhere NEAR those iron treatments because I don't like that guy there .. in fact .. I dislike him alot .. " THAT is the vibe I am kinda getting from you .. michael .. Let me tell you it ..ain't .. pretty .. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > I suggest that you in your Health Research Analyst mode consider > actually reading the details. Your stroke of genius was simply a [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - No, the medical study is not simple. You are. > No, you are wrong. It is not the iron. << > > Now .. you specifically said .. "you are wrong".. > > Now that statement means to ME an unwillingness to accept a simple > medical study for what it is .. Actually, just for the record, I do NOT have iron overload; in fact, just learned from my bone marrow biopsy that my iron is low instead. If it gets worse, or if I feel worse, he (Hematologist/Oncologist) said he will give me a shot of some kind. Just FYI, not to contribute to the discussions going on here. Nanny > No, the medical study is not simple. You are. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Now that statement means to ME an unwillingness to accept a simple >> medical study for what it is .. Actually, just for the record, I do NOT have iron overload; in fact, just learned from my bone marrow biopsy that my iron is low instead. If it gets worse, or if I feel worse, he (Hematologist/Oncologist) said he will give me a shot of some kind.<< Doctors do a bone marrow biopsy and decide the person is low in iron because in the marrow they find low / no iron. They then give 'iron treatments' and when he / Joe dies later the autopsy shows MASSIVE amounts of iron ELSEWHERE .. IE: kidneys and spleen .. He died of a massive coronary .. Joe had aplastic anemia .. Sooo .. because your doctor diagnoses you iron deficient doesn't make you iron deficient .. Ask .. Joe .. Oh .. yeah .. Joes .. .. dead. Am J Clin Pathol 1983 Nov;80(5):743-5 Serum ferritin and sequestered stores of body iron. Rao KR, Ray VH, Patel AR A 47-year-old man with sickle cell anemia, chronic cor pulmonale, and congestive heart failure died following a short illness. A diagnosis of iron deficiency was established during life by usually accepted criteria including a low serum ferritin concentration. Autopsy showed no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. Marked deposits of iron were seen in the kidneys and the atrophic spleen. These findings suggest that the serum ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron in the spleen and the kidneys. PMID: 6195914, UI: 84049241 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk Just FYI, not to contribute to the discussions going > > No, the medical study is not simple. You are. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Show quoted text - -blah- These findings suggest that the serum ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron _________________________________________________________________ QED On May 21, 12:46 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:-blah- << STFU .. Am J Clin Pathol 1983 Nov;80(5):743-5 Serum ferritin and sequestered stores of body iron. Rao KR, Ray VH, Patel AR A 47-year-old man with sickle cell anemia, chronic cor pulmonale, and congestive heart failure died following a short illness. A diagnosis of iron deficiency was established during life by usually accepted criteria including a low serum ferritin concentration. Autopsy showed no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. Marked deposits of iron were seen in the kidneys and the atrophic spleen. These findings suggest that the serum ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron in the spleen and the kidneys. PMID: 6195914, UI: 84049241 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Actually, just for the record, I do NOT have iron overload; in fact, > just [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > -blah- > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > QED On May 21, 12:46 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:-blah- << Autopsy showed no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. Marked deposits of iron were seen in the kidneys and the atrophic spleen. These findings suggest that the serum ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron in the spleen and the kidneys. __________________________________________________________ QED - another own goal On May 22, 1:02 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. << The standard test of ferritin does not tell you whether or not you are iron deficient. It is unreliable and the consequences are a .. killer. They give you iron and you die. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 21, 12:46 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:-blah- > << [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > QED - another own goal On May 22, 1:02 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. << The standard test of ferritin does not tell you whether or not you are iron deficient. It is unreliable and the consequences are a .. killer. They give you iron and you die. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" ___________________________________________________________ Yes - absolutely. I read that the first time, and now you score another own goal. Give up now Tommy - it's like the ESR all over again. You don't understand the article, and the more you post about it, the more you demonstrate your lack of understanding. You were given the chance, and you chose not to take it. On May 22, 2:21 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: You don't understand the article << "It is unreliable and the consequences are they give you iron when you have aplastic anemia and you die." I think it is you who don't seem to understand a simple sentence. How about the part of iron chelation CURES him of his aplastic anemia .. ? It is only a ten sentence article. Are you able to understand .. that .. ? The first article is 24 years old. Gave you plenty of time. It is only a ten sentence article. You STILL say .. "ferritin is a reliable marker to use" .. "It is unreliable and the consequences are they give you iron and you die." You should kinda get your sht together seeing you purport to be some kind of pathology .. interested .. guy .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 22, 1:02 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: no > stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. << [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > lack of understanding. > You were given the chance, and you chose not to take it. On May 22, 2:21 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: You don't understand the article << You STILL say .. "ferritin is a reliable marker to use" .. _____________________________________________________ Do I ? Where did I say that? As is so often the case here Tommy, you are wrong (yet) again. This latest spat has merely proved that you *don't* understand the article in question. On May 22, 2:54 pm, ironjustice <ironjust...@cashette.com> wrote:They give you iron and you die << I suppose die .. screaming .. would be more appropriate. IRON DEPOSITION IN THE JOINTS OF CHILDREN WITH JUVENILE RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS Author(s): SHYPAILO ROMAN J ELLIS KENNETH J PEREZ MARIA ABRAMS STEVEN A Interpretive Summary: We wanted to develop an accurate and noninvasive way of determining the amount of iron deposited in the joints of patients with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. Children with JRA often develop excess iron in their joints, so doctors need a way of monitoring the iron level, particularly when prescribing iron supplements for the common problem of anemia. However, the only method currently available is to take a biopsy. We adapted a machine called a gamma counter to measure the iron in eight patients' joints after giving them an iron isotope by vein. Then we compared the results with the total amount of iron in their bodies, measured by a whole-body counter. We found that we had developed an accurate new way of measuring iron in these patients' joints. We also found that six of the eight subjects had excess uptake of the iron isotope in their joints. That provided a signal that a preponderance of JRA patients are prone to have this problem, and clinicians should take special care to monitor them for it. Moreover, this is the first time a noninvasive way of performing this measurement has been available. Keywords: energy reproduction growth body composition women infants children water potassium bioelectrical impedance conductance bromide space lactating iron adipose tissue lipid motabolism beta-adrenergic receptor cell culture neutron activation nitrogen carbon calcium sodium chlorine phosphorus hormonal changes differentiation adipocyte hnrim021125 Contact: USDA/ARS CHILDREN'S NUTR 1100 BATES ST. HOUSTON TX 77030 FAX: (713)798-7130 Email: kel...@bcm.tmc.edu Approved Date: 1999-01-07 ______________________________________________________________________ TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service Updated: 1999-01-16 ---------------------------------------- Title: Mechanism of exacerbation of rheumatoid synovitis by total- dose iron-dextran infusion: in-vivo demonstration of iron-promoted oxidant stress. Author(s): Winyard PG; Blake DR; Chirico S; Gutteridge JM; Lunec J Source: Lancet 1987 Jan 10;1(8524):69-72 Abstract: The mechanism by which a synovial flare occurred in a patient with rheumatoid arthritis after intravenous infusion of iron-dextran was investigated. After the infusion, serum and synovial-fluid iron-binding capacity became saturated, giving rise to low-molecular-mass iron chelates with the capacity to cause oxidative damage ("bleomycin-iron"). At the same time lipid peroxidation and the concentration of oxidised ascorbic acid (dehydroascorbate) increased in both serum and synovial fluid, and red-cell glutathione fell. These changes corresponded closely to an exacerbation of rheumatoid synovitis. Hepatic function was transiently disturbed 7 days after the infusion, reflecting hepatic oxidant stress within the iron-loaded liver. Such changes provide clear evidence that iron-catalysed oxidative reactions influence the inflammatory process in human beings Major Indexes: * Arthritis, Rheumatoid [metabolism] * Iron-Dextran Complex [adverse effects] * Iron [metabolism] * Synovitis [metabolism] Minor Indexes: * Bleomycins [diagnostic use] * Glutathione [blood] * Infusions, Intravenous * Iron-Dextran Complex [administration & dosage] * Knee Joint [physiopathology] * Lipid Peroxides [metabolism] * Liver [metabolism] * Middle Age Reagent Names: * 0 (Bleomycins) * 0 (Lipid Peroxides) * 70-18-8 (Glutathione) * 7439-89-6 (Iron) * 9004-66-4 (Iron-Dextran Complex) Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 22, 2:21 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: You > don't understand the article << [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On May 22, 2:54 pm, ironjustice <ironjust...@cashette.com> wrote:They give you iron and you die << I suppose die .. screaming .. would be more appropriate. IRON DEPOSITION IN THE JOINTS OF CHILDREN WITH JUVENILE RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS Author(s): SHYPAILO ROMAN J ELLIS KENNETH J PEREZ MARIA ABRAMS STEVEN A _____________________________________________________________________________ Four own goals, Tommy. JUVENILE RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS << Rheumatoid factor (RF) This is evidence of erythrocytosis / increased red blood cell production . Rheumatoid factor (RF) rises as one goes to altitude. The higher you go the higher your RF and the higher your red blood cell count / erythrocytosis. http://www.labtestsonline.org.au/understanding/conditions/jra.html Rheumatoid factor (RF) – may be positive or negative depending on the type of JRA; Am J Med Sci. 2003 Sep;326(3):148-51. Related Articles, Links Successful treatment with cyclosporin in adult-onset still disease manifesting as acute hepatitis with marked hyperferritinemia. Omagari K, Matsunaga Y, Yamashita H, Nishiyama H, Hazama H, Oda H, Isomoto H, Mizuta Y, Murase K, Kohno S. SUMMARY: ABSTRACT A 48-year-old woman was admitted because of spiking high fever, sore throat, and jaundice. A diagnosis was made of adult-onset Still disease (AOSD) presenting with acute hepatitis and very high serum ferritin levels (32,240 ng/mL), and she was treated with 2 courses of pulse therapy of methylprednisolone (2 g/day for 3 days) followed by 40 mg/day prednisolone. Subsequently, the serum level of ferritin decreased, but serum total bilirubin increased to 17.3 mg/dL. Therefore, cyclosporin was administered orally. Within the next 3 months, results of liver function tests, as well as serum levels of ferritin, soluble interleukin-2 receptor, interferon-gamma, interleukin-6, and tumor necrosis factor-alpha gradually returned to within normal limits, and cyclosporin administration was subsequently reduced gradually. The clinical presentation suggests that AOSD should be considered when liver dysfunction is accompanied with high fever and extreme hyperferritinemia, and that treatment with cyclosporin or other immunosuppressive drugs that selectively suppress cytokine production by helper T cells is a valuable option in the treatment of AOSD with very high serum ferritin levels. PMID: 14501232 [PubMed - in process] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now WHY .. in these three DIFFERENT diseases .. does the drop of iron .. PARALLEL .. the drop in alanine aminotransferase (ALT) .. but in the disease of .. juvenile rheumatoid arthritis / Still's .. do they NOT .. use this marker .. WHEN .. iron HAS been shown to BE a .. problem .. ? Especially .. when they have such high liver injury rates. Two thirds. Stupidity .. ? <<snip>> There was a positive correlation between transaminases and serum ferritin <<snip>> J Nephrol. 2003 Sep-Oct; 16(5): 703-9. Related Articles, Links Comparative study of intravenous ascorbic acid versus low-dose desferroxamine in patients on hemodialysis with hyperferritinemia. Deira J, Diego J, Martinez R, Oyarbide A, Gonzalez A, Diaz H, Grande J. Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Nephrology, Hospital Virgen de la Concha, Zamora, Spain. jde...@saludalia.com BACKGROUND: In patients on hemodialysis (HD), parenteral iron improves the response to recombinant human erythropoietin (rhuEPO) therapy, but in some subjects it produces an iron overload, increasing their morbidity and mortality rates. In these cases, iron administration must be discontinued. This study aimed to investigate the efficiency of treatment with ascorbic acid (AA) or desferroxamine (DFO) to mobilize and reduce iron stores, and to determine the effect of these compounds on erythropoiesis. METHODS: We performed a prospective and randomized trial over 6 months, which included 27 patients with serum ferritin levels >800 ng/mL, TSAT >30% and stabilized hemoglobin (Hb) and rhuEPO doses. All patients had previously received parenteral iron (Ferlecit). Nine patients received 200 mg of intravenous (i.v.) AA 3 times/week and nine patients received 1 mg/Kg/week of DFO; the remaining nine patients were the control group. RESULTS: There were no significant differences in iron loss or mobilization due to dialysis. When Ferlecit was discontinued, functional iron did not vary and the epoetin resistance index (rhuEPO dose/Hb) was reduced by 21% in the i.v. AA group. In the DFO and control groups, functional iron levels fell. In the DFO group the epoetin resistance index increased by 20%, with no modifications in the control group. There was a positive correlation between transaminases and serum ferritin. CONCLUSIONS: In HD patients with an iron overload, neither i.v. AA administration or low-dose DFO increased iron mobilization or iron loss due to dialysis. I.v. AA administration allows elimination of iron from stores without any drop in the functional iron produced by discontinuing parenteral maintenance iron; it also improves the response to rhuEPO. DFO did not elicit any positive effects on erythropoiesis. PMID: 14733417 [PubMed - in process] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ <<snip>> The treatment reduced mean serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) activity <<snip>> Effect of iron reduction by phlebotomy in Japanese patients with nonalcoholic steatohepatitis: A pilot study. Sumida Y, Kanemasa K, Fukumoto K, Yoshida N, Sakai K, Nakashima T, Okanoue T Hepatol Res. 2006 Sep 11; Increased hepatic iron deposition may play a role in the pathogenesis of nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH). This study aimed to test whether iron removal by phlebotomy improves serum transaminase activities in patients with NASH. Eleven patients (six males and five females) with biopsy-proven NASH underwent phlebotomy biweekly until they reached near-iron deficiency (NID) (serum ferritin concentration lower than or equal to 30ng/ml). Nine patients completed this study. Serum ferritin levels in these patients fell from 563+/-322 to 18+/-9ng/ml (p=0.001). The treatment reduced mean serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) activity from 126+/-47 to 56+/-17IU/l (p=0.002). Their weight did not change significantly throughout the study period. Although two patients withdrew from the study, none was affected by any side effects of repeated phlebotomy that required discontinuing the treatment. In conclusion, this pilot study suggests that iron reduction therapy by phlebotomy will be one of the promising therapies for NASH. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- <<snip>> Serum alanine aminotransferase levels were significantly improved <<snip>> Hepatogastroenterology. 2005 Mar-Apr;52(62):563-6. Related Articles, Links Additional effect of low iron diet on iron reduction therapy by phlebotomy for chronic hepatitis C. Kimura F, Hayashi H, Yano M, Yoshioka K, Matsumura T, Fukuda T, Shigeto N, Yamahara S, Koushi F, Mishima Y, Yoshino T, Tanimoto M, Kimura I. Department of Internal Medicine, Tamano-Municipal Hospital, Tamano City, Okayama, Japan. f-kim...@po1.oninet.ne.jp BACKGROUND/AIMS: Iron-induced oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathogenesis of chronic hepatitis C. Both phlebotomy for removing body iron stores and low iron diet for minimizing portal iron supply to the liver have been shown to improve serum transaminase levels in patients with the disease. However, the cooperative effects of phlebotomy and low iron diet have not yet been elucidated in detail. METHODOLOGY: A pilot study was undertaken to investigate whether a low iron diet could improve the efficacy of phlebotomy in iron reduction therapy. Of 21 patients diagnosed with chronic hepatitis C, 10 patients were treated with phlebotomy alone (group A) while 11 patients were treated with a low iron plus phlebotomy (group B). Phlebotomy was repeated biweekly until serum ferritin levels reached 10 ng/mL in both A and B groups. In addition, a low iron diet (iron intake of 8 mg/day or less) was recommended for group B, followed by estimation of iron intake from daily diet records. RESULTS: Serum alanine aminotransferase levels were significantly improved from 106+/-30 to 68+/-22 IU/L (p<0.005, paired t-test) in group A and from 100+/-33 to 46+/-10 IU/L (p<0.002, paired t-test) in group B. The enzyme levels after treatment were significantly higher in group A (p<0.02, non-paired t-test), which showed a higher upward distribution of the enzyme activity. The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from 17.6+/-6.1 to 8.2+/-3.7 mg/day. CONCLUSIONS: These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an additional effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C. PMID: 15816478 [PubMed - in process] --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 22, 2:54 pm, ironjustice <ironjust...@cashette.com> wrote:They > give you iron and you die << [quoted text clipped - 194 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, thanks for the little bit of encouragement. However, there is a good chance that I'll outlive you. Nanny Actually, just for the record, I do NOT have iron overload; in fact, just learned from my bone marrow biopsy that my iron is low instead. If it gets worse, or if I feel worse, he (Hematologist/Oncologist) said he will give me a shot of some kind.<< Doctors do a bone marrow biopsy and decide the person is low in iron because in the marrow they find low / no iron. They then give 'iron treatments' and when he / Joe dies later the autopsy shows MASSIVE amounts of iron ELSEWHERE .. IE: kidneys and spleen .. He died of a massive coronary .. Joe had aplastic anemia .. Sooo .. because your doctor diagnoses you iron deficient doesn't make you iron deficient .. Ask .. Joe .. Oh .. yeah .. Joes .. .. dead. Am J Clin Pathol 1983 Nov;80(5):743-5 Serum ferritin and sequestered stores of body iron. Rao KR, Ray VH, Patel AR A 47-year-old man with sickle cell anemia, chronic cor pulmonale, and congestive heart failure died following a short illness. A diagnosis of iron deficiency was established during life by usually accepted criteria including a low serum ferritin concentration. Autopsy showed no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. Marked deposits of iron were seen in the kidneys and the atrophic spleen. These findings suggest that the serum ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron in the spleen and the kidneys. PMID: 6195914, UI: 84049241 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk Just FYI, not to contribute to the discussions going > on here. Nanny"Michael B" <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On May 21, 9:55 pm, "nanny" <gloria...@woh.rr.com> wrote:there is a good chance that I'll outlive you. << Between pipe bombs and guys like the UK boy scout leader .. you might be right .. ? "Dr. Semmelweis died from injuries suffered when he was beaten as a patient in an insane asylum." "Doctors didn’t want to contemplate that they could in fact be causing death as opposed to healing people." http://www.eceblogger.com/?p=114 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Well, thanks for the little bit of encouragement. However, there is a good > Actually, just for the record, I do NOT have iron overload; in fact, [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On May 21, 9:55 pm, "nanny" <gloria...@woh.rr.com> wrote:there is a good chance that I'll outlive you. << Between pipe bombs and guys like the UK boy scout leader .. you might be right .. ? "Dr. Semmelweis died from injuries suffered when he was beaten as a patient in an insane asylum." "Doctors didn’t want to contemplate that they could in fact be causing death as opposed to healing people." __________________________________________________________ So is this saying that you are suffering from some medical condition or that you are in an insane asylum? In spite of my frequent annoyance with him, my observation is that he expressed it pretty well. With the note of the doctors not wanting to contemplate that they were killing instead of healing. He has noted that the true iron deposits are not of necessity reflected by standard diagnostics, also valid. Then he threw in the proposal that Nanny would be likely killed by her doctors getting low iron reading from bone biopsy and consequently calling for iron supplementation which would result in the dreaded iron overload. However, I'm not sure why he hasn't offered the proposition of red cell ferritin perhaps being more reflective of iron status, rather than serum ferritin. He also hasn't done much to remind about mitochondrial damage and dysfunction in iron overload, but that's more pathophysiology than he appears to be interested in. I find that rather curious, in view of the crossposted newsgroups tending to have low energy capacity. > On May 21, 9:55 pm, "nanny" <gloria...@woh.rr.com> wrote:there is a > good [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So is this saying that you are suffering from some medical condition or that > you are in an insane asylum? On May 23, 3:57 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:view of the crossposted newsgroups tending to have low energy capacity << Is that like sort of supposed to be a .. pun .. ? Low energy / fatigue ? Actually .. the pathologic .. group is only included because of the .. evidence .. the sci.group gives. Sort of like .. give him an inch and he'll hang himself .. I placed a simple article .. really simple. The common tests or uncommon tests or any tests at all for iron deficiency are unreliable. Instead of just shutting up .. he attempts to make people believe the OPPOSITE or attempts like in YOUR case this time .. to 'slightly' change .. 'wording' in order now AGAIN to attempt to .. confuse and .. **bore** and raise some type of possibility 'bolster' this possible misconception OF the article BEING .. **correct** as the poster / me clearly points .. out. It is a method. It is a type of warfare. "The tests the medical profession uses to diagnose iron deficiency ARE reliable." When the article .. a ten line article says JUST the oposite. Now many times it isn't always QUITE so .. evident .. as to the type of warfare attempted. "Iron deficiency was established by usually accepted criteria" "Ferrtin is unreliable and the consequences are death." In this case straight out lying seems to be being used .. also .. 'crackpot' .. was thrown in .. Now you and manky seem to want to make it SEEM to be hard to understand .. Why is that .. ? "Misdiagnosed iron deficiency established by accepted criteria causes people to die screaming" Pretty simple to understand .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > In spite of my frequent annoyance with him, my observation is > that he expressed it pretty well. With the note of the doctors [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Simple question for you, I'm sure you'll understand. Don't you really mean misdiagnosed iron overload? The condition, and the diagnosis, need to be the same. Maybe you're just trying to make it hard to understand. Rather like the doctors you mentioned, not really being successful at doing what they thought they were doing. > On May 23, 3:57 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:view of > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Pretty simple to understand .. On May 23, 1:23 pm, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote: Don't you really mean misdiagnosed iron overload? << What I really mean is doctors CANNOT **reliably** diagnose iron deficiency. Is that hard to understand .. ? IE: "BECAUSE your doctor diagnoses you iron deficient doesn't MAKE you iron deficient" They specifically mention what they did wrong. They **misdiagnosed** iron deficiency .. "Iron deficiency was established" Try to twist it .. Twist it for .. your pal .. nanny .. confuse .. her .. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Simple question for you, I'm sure you'll understand. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - In spite of my frequent annoyance with him, my observation is that he expressed it pretty well. With the note of the doctors not wanting to contemplate that they were killing instead of healing. ____________________________________________________ Well....... (to use his trademark dots) As is so often the case, he sites the dangers of iron overload in a patient who quite simply has been given a life style choice: iron overload or death. If you look at the examples he cites you'll see thalassamia major, aplastic anaemia, sickle cell disease and all manner of transfusion dependent conditions cropping up again and again. And iron overload is a well recognised complication of all of these conditions because of the continual blood transfusions. It's something the medics are aware of, but in these conditions it's a balancing game. You give the treatment, it keeps the patient alive, albeit with various undesirable side effects. And yes, sometimes these side effects are fatal. But after the patient has had a better quality of life for longer than they would have without medical intervention. On May 23, 3:51 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: because of the continual blood transfusions << Those diseases are iron LOADING diseases. You aren't aware they ARE iron loading anemias? They were loading iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. The thread IS .. **iron deficiency** .. misdiagnosed. Maybe you should stick with that .. Don't try to understand more than one thing at a time .. Ok .. ? Good .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > In spite of my frequent annoyance with him, my observation is > that he expressed it pretty well. With the note of the doctors [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > patient has had a better quality of life for longer than they would have > without medical intervention. On May 23, 8:12 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:loading iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. << You know what their FIRST move WAS .. when .. someone initially found out there was a problem with transfusions in sickle .. ? I bet you can't guess .. noway you can guess .. They quit giving them transfusions .. and said .. "see .. they .. die .. screaming" .. THAT is exactly what they did .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 23, 3:51 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: because > of the continual blood transfusions << [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On May 23, 8:12 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:loading iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. << You know what their FIRST move WAS .. when .. someone initially found out there was a problem with transfusions in sickle .. ? I bet you can't guess .. noway you can guess .. They quit giving them transfusions .. and said .. "see .. they .. die .. screaming" .. THAT is exactly what they did .. ___________________________________________________________ Tommy, by your own admission you have absolutely no personal experience of anything medical. Those of us who do see your theories disproved on a daily basis. What you propose seems like a plausible idea, but simply doesn't fit the established facts on so many levels. But then again, by your own admission, you have no education on anything medical. Your posts here and elsewhere acheive absolutely nothing. The medical professionals who you simultaneously quote and despise can see the flaws in your logic and do not take you seriously (despite giving you so many chances). Those who are ill soon learn to treat your posts with contempt when they see your style of "discussion". Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. He sees pathophysiology as boring, and ignores that one fact shoots the hell out of a lot of theory. So in spite of your succinct and appropriate observation, the result will be naught. > Tommy, by your own admission you have absolutely no personal experience of > anything medical. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. He sees pathophysiology as boring, << There is something WRONG with not liking this 'stuff' is there .. ? One might think my dislike for this stuff is SHARED by alot of people ON these lists .. You believe all the people are .. what .. ? .. missing something.. ? You believe there is some sort of inherent .. what .. ? ..TO .. liking this sht .. ? Heh .. heh .. Yeah .. being a fkg .. dweeb .. and ignores that one fact shoots the hell out of a lot of theory. << Facts .. ? That is why jrkffs like you and manky take such extraordinary methods .. which don't involve .. facts a fkgtall .. Eh .. "Iron deficiency can be reliably diagnosed" Take your facts on my threads .. your LYING .. facts .. and hit the fkg road .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > and appropriate observation, the result will be naught. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On May 24, 4:02 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote: He sees pathophysiology as boring, << There is something WRONG with not liking this 'stuff' is there .. ? One might think my dislike for this stuff is SHARED by alot of people ON these lists .. _________________________________________________________________ In this instance we are talking *about* you, not *to* you. So, bearing in mind yourpersonal posting style I feel it's quite appropriate to say: Tommy, STFU (!) On May 24, 9:27 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:In this instance we are talking *about* you, not *to* you. << Actually .. buddy .. It is you talking to me .. And frankly .. you fkg bore .. me .. Bore .. Should I .. give you a definition .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 24, 4:02 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > He sees pathophysiology as boring, << [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Tommy, STFU (!) On May 24, 9:27 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:In this instance we are talking *about* you, not *to* you. << Actually .. buddy .. It is you talking to me .. And frankly .. you fkg bore .. me .. Bore .. Should I .. give you a definition .. ? _____________________________________________________ As I said, *about* you, not *to* you. You had the chance to contribute something constructive and failed miserably. So go and get a life. You'll thank me eventually. On May 24, 9:54 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:You had the chance to contribute something constructive and failed miserably << No .. I called you a .. fkg .. dweeb .. You didn't catch I called you a fkg.. dweeb ..? You are a fkg .. dweeb .. Did you catch it that time .. dweeb .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 24, 9:27 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:In this > instance we are talking *about* you, not *to* you. << [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > So go and get a life. You'll thank me eventually. On May 24, 9:54 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:You had the chance to contribute something constructive and failed miserably << No .. I called you a .. fkg .. dweeb .. You didn't catch I called you a fkg.. dweeb ..? You are a fkg .. dweeb .. Did you catch it that time .. dweeb .. ? ___________________________________________ As I say, you have no idea how to conduct a scientific discussion. I again invite you to contribute something constructive, but have the utmost confidence you will be unable to do so. Which is a shame because (by you own admission) you do nothing else with your time other than attempt to understand this sort of thing. On May 24, 10:10 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:contribute << You forgot your word .. onus .. I don't have to contribute to my thread .. at .. all .. You understand how that .. works .. man .. Do ya .. ? The question is .. logic .. Logic .. YOU do not USE .. logic .. Soooo .. contribute .. something .. Try to use .. the word .. logic .. IN ..your contribution .. ? "Why 75% of lupus patients are .. iron deficient .. ? How come in woman who are generally all grown up .. who should be like regular women .. generally .. except with lupus .. THEY are all iron deficient. WHEN in two differentdiseases .. sickle and thalassemia .. which CLOSELY resemble .. lupus .. THEY are ALL iron overloaded. Everyone is iron deficient as opposed to everyone iron overloaded." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 24, 9:54 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:You had > the chance to contribute something constructive and failed [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Which is a shame because (by you own admission) you do nothing else with > your time other than attempt to understand this sort of thing. On May 24, 10:10 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:contribute << You forgot your word .. onus .. I don't have to contribute to my thread .. at .. all .. You understand how that .. works .. man .. Do ya .. ? The question is .. logic .. Logic .. YOU do not USE .. logic .. Soooo .. contribute .. something .. Try to use .. the word .. logic .. IN ..your contribution .. ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Logically by your own admission you have absolutely no personal experience of anything medical. Those of us who do see your theories disproved on a daily basis. What you propose seems like a plausible idea, but simply doesn't fit the established facts on so many levels. But then again, by your own admission, you have no education on anything medical. Your posts here and elsewhere achieve absolutely nothing. The medical professionals who you simultaneously quote and despise can see the flaws in your logic and do not take you seriously (despite giving you so many chances). Those who are ill soon learn to treat your posts with contempt when they see your style of "discussion". Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 24, 4:23 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:iron deficiency << The standard test of ferritin does not tell you whether or not you are iron deficient. It is unreliable and the consequences are a .. killer. They give you iron and you die. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 24, 10:10 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> > wrote:contribute << [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 24, 4:23 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:iron deficiency << "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" ______________________________________________________ Why do you keep posting this line? I don't disagree with it at all, only with your interpretation of it. But then I answer my own question. You keep posting it because you don't understand it. Tommy, by your own admission you have absolutely no personal experience of anything medical. Those of us who do see your theories disproved on a daily basis. What you propose seems like a plausible idea, but simply doesn't fit the established facts on so many levels. But then again, by your own admission, you have no education on anything medical. Your posts here and elsewhere achieve absolutely nothing. The medical professionals who you simultaneously quote and despise can see the flaws in your logic and do not take you seriously (despite giving you so many chances). Those who are ill soon learn to treat your posts with contempt when they see your style of "discussion". Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 24, 4:47 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: You keep posting it because you don't understand it. << "It is unreliable and the consequences are they give you iron when you have aplastic anemia and you die." I think it is you who don't seem to understand a simple sentence. How about the part of iron chelation CURES him of his aplastic anemia .. ? It is only a ten sentence article. Are you able to understand .. that .. ? The first article is 24 years old. Gave you plenty of time. It is only a ten sentence article. You STILL say .. "ferritin is a reliable marker to use" .. "It is unreliable and the consequences are they give you iron and you die." You should kinda get your sht together seeing you purport to be some kind of pathology .. interested .. guy .. The standard test of ferritin does not tell you whether or not you are iron deficient. It is unreliable and the consequences are a .. killer. They give you iron and you die. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 24, 4:23 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:iron > deficiency << [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 24, 4:47 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> You STILL say .. "ferritin is a reliable marker to use" .. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Again I ask you to say where I said that. I agree with you. How many times do you want me to say that. It's what you deduce from the posting that is drivel, not those statements. Your logic is akin to saying 1 + 1 =2 therefore black = white. On May 25, 3:03 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: I agree with you. How many times do you want me to say that. << Soooo .. your 'reason' for being here .. are .. ? No reason whatsoever .. ? Heh .. heh .. Here is a description of YOUR being on MY threads .. "The kind of things they say are utterly stupid and the reason why they resort to these tactics is because they have nothing else to say. They have no arguments, reason, justification, they have no scientific basis." "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" You agree .. ? Then .. stfu .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 24, 4:47 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It's what you deduce from the posting that is drivel, not those statements. > Your logic is akin to saying 1 + 1 =2 therefore black = white. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" You agree .. ? Then .. stfu .. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll give you a hint: explain the word "sequestered" (this is getting painful...) On May 25, 8:51 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:I'll give you a hint: explain the word "sequestered" (this is getting painful...) << Let me dumb it down for you .. really dumb it down .. They cannot determine how much iron there is in the human body at any given time. How about that .. Is that .. clear .. enough for ya .. ? Is it .. ? And **anyone** who says they can .. is a fkg .. liar .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'll give you a hint: explain the word "sequestered" > (this is getting painful...) On May 25, 8:51 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:I'll give you a hint: explain the word "sequestered" (this is getting painful...) << Let me dumb it down for you .. really dumb it down .. They cannot determine how much iron there is in the human body at any given time. How about that .. Is that .. clear .. enough for ya .. ? Is it .. ? And **anyone** who says they can .. is a fkg .. liar .. ___________________________________________________ No - you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. Perhaps you'd read it better if it had dots but no vowels? On May 25, 9:38 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:No - you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. << You think sequestered is not iron .. ? What do you think sequestered iron is .. ? Nickel ..? A nickel is magnetic .. ? Is that what makes you think sequestered iron is nickel .. ? You are wrong .. Sequestered iron is still .. iron.. Otherwise it is transmutation .. Can you transmute .. there .. buddy .. ? Are you an alchemist .. ? No ..? Then fo.. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk They cannot determine how much iron there is in the human body at any > given time. > On May 25, 8:51 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:I'll > give you a hint: explain the word "sequestered" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > No - you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. > Perhaps you'd read it better if it had dots but no vowels? On May 25, 9:38 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:No - you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. << Sequestered iron is still .. iron.. Otherwise it is transmutation .. Can you transmute .. there .. buddy .. ? Are you an alchemist .. ? _________________________________________________ Tommy, by your own admission you have absolutely no personal experience of anything medical. Those of us who do see your theories disproved on a daily basis. What you propose seems like a plausible idea, but simply doesn't fit the established facts on so many levels. But then again, by your own admission, you have no education on anything medical. Your posts here and elsewhere achieve absolutely nothing. The medical professionals who you simultaneously quote and despise can see the flaws in your logic and do not take you seriously (despite giving you so many chances). Those who are ill soon learn to treat your posts with contempt when they see your style of "discussion". Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. <<snip>> << You got a **reason** .. other .. than to try to berate .. **me** .. ON . this thread about .. iron .. ? Do ya .. ? You have been saying the same thing for years .. You are getting kinda .. old .. You know that .. ? Maybe you should try to prove one of my studies .. wrong .. That would be novel .. Novel has many different .. meanings .. I believe you have read to many .. novels .. which has made you a .. novel .. and so NOW .. I will leave you with your NEW .. novel .. to use .. By the time we're done .. you will BE .. the word .. Now once again .. hit the fkg .. road .. dweeb .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 25, 9:38 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:No - > you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. << [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 25, 10:13 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: <<snip>> << You got a **reason** .. other .. than to try to berate .. **me** .. ON . this thread about .. iron .. ? Do ya .. ? You have been saying the same thing for years .. You are getting kinda .. old .. You know that .. ? Maybe you should try to prove one of my studies .. wrong .. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your" studies? Anyway, it's not the articles that you post that are wrong, it's your interpretation of them. Now that's been proved wrong comprehensively so many times. And, as a matter of fact, I do *try* not to berate you, but it's difficult not to descend to your level. On May 25, 10:58 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:Anyway, it's not the articles that you post that are wrong, it's yourinterpretation of them. << "I agree with you. How many times do you want me to say that." "The kind of things they say are utterly stupid." Now WHAT are you doing on THIS thread again .. ? "The reason why they resort to these tactics is because they have nothing else to say. They have no arguments, reason, justification, they have no scientific basis." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 25, 10:13 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: > <<snip>> << [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > And, as a matter of fact, I do *try* not to berate you, but it's difficult > not to descend to your level. Tom, you've missed the point again. You were asked to show that you knew the word "sequestered", and you started telling about transmutation. Iron becoming nickel, silly stuff like that. Sequestered iron is iron that for some reason has been physically set aside from typical availability. That would include iron biochemically nonreactive or far less reactive. For example, iron can be deposited in cardiac tissue. Interestingly enough, a calcium channel blocker such as Verapamil can be used to stop that process, because after all, Ca+ is a metallic ion as well. Ooops, is that something beyond your awareness? You ARE aware of the Periodic Table, I hope. The spleen can have sequestered iron, too, not part of the serum ferritin assay, deposited in the spleen during breakdown of RBC's. Or it can be deposited in the liver, the bones, wherever. Sequestered iron is what "rusts you out", and is not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics. But this is not new information that the medical community was trying to keep a secret till you came along. Transferrin saturation evaluation was being advocated over a decade ago, it's not like it's a groundbreaking revelation. Big thing is that those with hemochromatosis usually don't know it, because the doctors frequently share your disdain for pathophysiology. Such things as Cytochrome P450 are just not within their daily scope. Same for other pathophysiology that you find equally **boring**.. But I'll bet they somewhat understand sequestered iron, which puts them at least one step above you, twerp. > On May 25, 9:38 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:No - > you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. << [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > No - you've missed the point again Tom. s-e-q-u-e-s-t-e-r-e-d. > > Perhaps you'd read it better if it had dots but no vowels? On May 25, 11:53 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:and is not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics. << "They cannot determine" "Not accurately assessed" "The kind of things they say are utterly stupid." Now WHAT are you doing on THIS thread again .. ? "The reason why they resort to these tactics is because they have nothing else to say. They have no arguments, reason, justification, they have no scientific basis." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Tom, you've missed the point again. You were asked to show that you > knew the word "sequestered", and you started telling about [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Tom, are you still in your basement room pissing on yourself? You have missed the point yet again. You, sir, are the one with nothing else to say. No argument, reason, justification, no scientific basis. The things you say are utterly stupid. Go upstairs, thank your mother for having paid for another month of internet access, take a walk on such a lovely day, and glance at the McDonald's signs that say "Now Hiring". It's a start towards the rest of your misbegotten life, and the closest you should ever get to the health industry. > On May 25, 11:53 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:and is > not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics. << [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Who loves ya. > Tom On May 25, 12:42 pm, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:and is not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics. << "They cannot determine" "Not accurately assessed" "The kind of things they say are utterly stupid." Now WHAT are you doing on THIS thread again .. ? "The reason why they resort to these tactics is because they have nothing else to say. They have no arguments, reason, justification, they have no scientific basis." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk What an excellent reflection of your problem. You want to wave the "iron overload" flag, but are disdainful of the inherent pathophysiology underlying the condition. Perhaps you can eventually recognize that most of the people on your crossposted newsgroups also hold a valid disdain of you, because all you can do is mouth the words. As an aside, I remember a toy that was popular a few years ago. It was called the "Slinkey". It wasn't really good for anything, except to provide amusement in watching it fall down the steps. I recall the days of the Slinkey when I see your posts. > He sees pathophysiology as boring, << > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Yeah .. being a fkg .. dweeb .. On May 24, 11:55 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:iron deficiency << The standard test of ferritin does not tell you whether or not you are iron deficient. It is unreliable and the consequences are a .. killer. They give you iron and you die. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > What an excellent reflection of your problem. You want to > wave the "iron overload" flag, but are disdainful of the inherent [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The funny thing is that what you are saying is well acknowledged. That's why there is research showing alternate schemes for iron assay. Such as in the proteins. Is that what you've been trying to say, as if everybody that knows how to read a research article didn't already know it? My concern is that you, as Health Research Analyst, or whatever, have shown a failure to grasp details that should have been apparent to the reader. Including your disdain for going below the surface for the relevant details. > On May 24, 11:55 am, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:iron > deficiency << [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Who loves ya. > Tom On May 24, 7:08 pm, Michael B <baugh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:iron deficiency << The standard test of ferritin does not tell you whether or not you are iron deficient. It is unreliable and the consequences are a .. killer. They give you iron and you die. "Ferritin concentration may not reflect sequestered stores of iron" Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk On May 24, 1:21 am, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:On May 23, 3:51 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote: Those of us who do see your theories disproved << The thread IS .. **iron deficiency** .. misdiagnosed. Don't try to understand more than one thing at a time .. Ok .. ? Good .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 23, 8:12 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:loading > iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. << [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 23, 9:48 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:loading iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. << Anyone care to try to explain the logic behind this .. just off the top of their heads .. ? Why 75% of lupus patients are .. iron deficient .. ? How come in woman who are generally all grown up .. who should be like regular women .. generally .. except with lupus .. THEY are all iron deficient. WHEN in two differentdiseases .. sickle and thalassemia .. which CLOSELY resemble .. lupus .. THEY are ALL iron overloaded. Everyone is iron deficient as opposed to everyone iron overloaded. In basically the SAME ..diseases .. ? Something ain't right in .. Denmark .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 23, 8:12 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:loading > iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. << [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > - Show quoted text - "ironjustice" <teamtanner@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:63b7798f-09e7-40ad-922b- Something ain't right in .. Denmark .. _________________________________________________________________________ Tommy, by your own admission you have absolutely no personal experience of anything medical. Those of us who do see your theories disproved on a daily basis. What you propose seems like a plausible idea, but simply doesn't fit the established facts on so many levels. But then again, by your own admission, you have no education on anything medical. Your posts here and elsewhere achieve absolutely nothing. The medical professionals who you simultaneously quote and despise can see the flaws in your logic and do not take you seriously (despite giving you so many chances). Those who are ill soon learn to treat your posts with contempt when they see your style of "discussion". Get a hobby - your life would be so much more constructively employed. On May 24, 9:20 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote: Why 75% of lupus patients are .. iron deficient .. ?<< What they do is they just SIMPLY disregard the signs of .. "hyperferritin" . They say "It is unreliable marker and so we'll give her radioactive phosphorus or inject some iron .." .. It guess it is .. selectively .. "reliable" ..? Reliable enough TO .. "I diagnose iron deficiency" .. but not reliable enough to diagnose leukemia .. Even thoughhhh .. targeting iron cures the leukemia .. sickle .. thalassemia .. That's a coincidence of course.. I would bet .. cure lupus .. too .. "Hyperferritinemia in systemic lupus erythematosus correlates with disease activity. Isr Med Assoc J. 2008 Jan;10(1):83-4.Links Hyperferritinemia in autoimmunity. Zandman-Goddard G, Shoenfeld Y. Department of Medicine C, Wolfson Medical Center, Holon, Israel. Controlling iron/oxygen chemistry in biology depends on multiple genes, regulatory messenger RNA structures, signaling pathways and protein catalysts. Ferritin synthesis is regulated by cytokines (tumor necrosis factor- alpha and interleukin-1alpha) at various levels (transcriptional, post- transcriptional, translational) during development, cellular differentiation, proliferation and inflammation. The cellular response by cytokines to infection stimulates the expression of ferritin genes. The immunological actions of ferritin include binding to T lymphocytes, suppression of the delayed-type hypersensitivity, suppression of antibody production by B lymphocytes, and decreased phagocytosis of granulocytes. Thyroid hormone, insulin and insulin growth factor-1 are involved in the regulation of ferritin at the mRNA level. Ferritin and iron homeostasis are implicated in the pathogenesis of many disorders, including diseases involved in iron acquisition, transport and storage (primary hemochromatosis) as well as in atherosclerosis, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer disease, and restless leg syndrome. Mutations in the ferritin gene cause the hereditary hyperferritinemia- cataract syndrome and neuroferritinopathy. Hyperferritinemia is associated with inflammation, infections and malignancies, and in systemic lupus erythematosus correlates with disease activity. Some evidence points to the importance of hyperferritinemia in dermatomyositis and multiple sclerosis, but further mechanistic investigations are warranted. PMID: 18300583 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On May 23, 9:48 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:loading > iron long before transfusions / doctors got to them. << [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Actually, just for the record, I do NOT have iron overload; in fact, just learned from my bone marrow biopsy that my iron is low instead. << "The iron is not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics." "The spleen can have sequestered iron, too, not part of the serum ferritin assay, deposited in the spleen during breakdown of RBC's. Or it can be deposited in the liver, the bones, wherever. Sequestered iron is what "rusts you out", and is not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics." Michael says .. if I interpreted / understand his scientific lingo .. correctly .. "The iron is not accurately assessed through standard diagnostics." Something like the study says .. IT says .. "Iron deficiency CANNOT BE established by usual accepted criteria " Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk >If it gets > worse, or if I feel worse, he (Hematologist/Oncologist) said he will give me [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - Show quoted text - |
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