Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / January 2004
How much longer now?
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Julie - 10 Jan 2004 01:02 GMT My wonderful mother is suffering from lung cancer that has metastasized to her brain. She's receiving hospice care at home, and in the last couple of weeks her condition has rapidly deteriorated. She was able to speak clearly and turn her head a week ago and still had some movement in her left arm but now it is at the point where she is completely paralyzed except for the ability to open her mouth and eyes. She is having trouble swallowing. She can say "yes" and "no" but when she tries to say anything else it is incomprehensible. She sleeps about 20 hours a day, and even when she is awake she is often so tired she doesn't open her eyes. How much longer will she have to suffer? Although she can no longer speak the look in her eyes says it all.
Thanks,
Julie
W.R - 10 Jan 2004 03:57 GMT Julie
I would have to say her suffering and hers is almost over. May God take her to rest soon.
Wayne
> My wonderful mother is suffering from lung cancer that has metastasized to > her brain. She's receiving hospice care at home, and in the last couple of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Julie Steph - 10 Jan 2004 04:16 GMT > My wonderful mother is suffering from lung cancer that has metastasized to > her brain. She's receiving hospice care at home, and in the last couple of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Julie Days rather than weeks, Julie.........
J - 10 Jan 2004 06:40 GMT > My wonderful mother is suffering from lung cancer that has metastasized to > her brain. She's receiving hospice care at home, and in the last couple of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > she have to suffer? Although she can no longer speak the look in her eyes > says it all. ( ( ( Julie ) ) ) Not much longer. I believe the hearing goes on for a bit or maybe that just made me feel better to have some final private time with Dad for a final goodbye even after they told me Dad had died. I'm so sorry, we'll be here. J
Trish Knight - 10 Jan 2004 21:21 GMT > My wonderful mother is suffering from lung cancer that has metastasized to > her brain. She's receiving hospice care at home, and in the last couple of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Julie Dear Julie, You're in my thoughts. (((( Julie )))) Hugs, Trish
Lisasbucc - 11 Jan 2004 02:39 GMT Julie,
This time must be so very hard for you. It doesn't sound like she's in pain (my main phobia about "the end") and that's a plus.
If she's still with you, take the time to let her know how much she means to you. So often, we wait too long to do this - if we ever do. Making declarations is a win-win deal. Both of you benefit and you'll be glad about it later.
Thinking of you and praying that your mom's release is peaceful.
Take care. ...lisa
Julie - 11 Jan 2004 13:55 GMT Thank you for your kind thoughts.
I do feel grateful that we have pretty much said all we need to say to one another. We had a conversation a couple of weeks back in which she told me I'd "always been a source of pride and joy except for the grumpy bits" (!) and I responded that I felt the same way about her except for the overly critical bits. :) I told her I knew that at a time like this I should probably say something profound but that I couldn't think of anything to say right at the moment. She said she couldn't either, but the fact that we've always made it clear how we felt about each other meant - at least to her - that we didn't have any unfinished business.
I followed that conversation up with a letter my sister read aloud to her (I don't live nearby), in which I tried my best to convey what she has meant to me, thanking her for being such a wonderful mother and for all the love and kindness she has shown me throughout my life. My sister said my mother cried as she heard it but my mom later told me on the phone that the letter had really cheered her up. In a way I feel that letter got her attention more than anything I could have said to her in person because of all the hubbub that was going on around her during my last visit and the fact that she seemed not to want to dwell on anything touchy-feely (she's a very private, pragmatic person). So I'm grateful for that.
My mother isn't taking in very many fluids now, and her urine has a rather dark, pinkish cast to it. I'm worried that's a sign of a bladder infection due to the catheter but the hospice doctor said it's a sign of her system shutting down. Does that sound right to you? I just don't want her to be in any pain from an infection that could be being treated...
Thanks,
Julie
> Julie, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take care. > ...lisa alexk - 11 Jan 2004 15:58 GMT Sorry to hear about your Mom, my mother died of lung cancer so I can understand what you are going through. I would not worry about the urine causing any pain since not having the catheter would cause her more discomfort. The Hospice Nurse can give you the best assessment of when the end is near. Things they look for are lower or absence of BP, a change in breathing pattern, no urine out put for several days .... Alex
> Thank you for your kind thoughts. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Take care. > > ...lisa J - 11 Jan 2004 17:43 GMT > I followed that conversation up with a letter my sister read aloud to her (I > don't live nearby), in which I tried my best to convey what she has meant to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seemed not to want to dwell on anything touchy-feely (she's a very private, > pragmatic person). So I'm grateful for that. That's what worked for Dad (who wasn't very demonstrative) and me, writing, but he was far away also and it happened over a period of years. I do wish I'd had that time with Mom.
> My mother isn't taking in very many fluids now, and her urine has a rather > dark, pinkish cast to it. I'm worried that's a sign of a bladder infection > due to the catheter but the hospice doctor said it's a sign of her system > shutting down. Does that sound right to you? I just don't want her to be in > any pain from an infection that could be being treated... Sounds very much like when Dad died, near the end, so it's the process. You are being a good daughter and double-checking, but I'm sure Hospice know exactly. What happened with Dad, is it was so routine for them, they'd come in and do their stuff and before we knew it they were gone, so we had to kind of stop one and ask some questions. I think they perhaps are told to be as innconspicuous as possible and not explain unless directly asked. (some might be upset from getting detailled explanations). So do ask them questions as they come to mind.
( ( ( Julie ) ) ) J
Alayne - 11 Jan 2004 21:38 GMT > Thank you for your kind thoughts. > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > I second Lisa's words - may your mum find peace when her battle is over. May you also find peace knowing that you have been there for her and that her suffering will soon be over.
Hugs
Alayne
slykitten - 12 Jan 2004 02:41 GMT Julie, my grandma had lung cancer.... in fact, come to find out, it was small cell lung cancer. Very aggressive. She also had a secondary diagnosis of both Bone cancer and Congestive Heart Failure. At the end, whe the cancer hit her brain, she became incoherent and would talk about strange things.... mostly about the farm in Ireland.... the small cottage she and her siblings grew up. As her body shut down, her output (urine and bowel movements) became fewer and fewer, her urine became oddly colored and at one point, became somewhat sludgy. As her body continued to shut down, circulation to her arms and legs became strange.... slow.... she did this strange "marbling" where her skin was pale, dark pink, purple and bluish in color. Her breathing became wet, rattly, wheezy and almost "croupy" sounding but without a cough. She'd begin taking a breath every 5 minutes.... then every 10.... shallow, raspy.... she'd take a couple quick breaths in that were shallow and then let out a long exhale. this happened for about 12 hours until her last exhale. I wish I didn't know what you're going through.... in a lot of ways I don't only because I lost my grandma..... it's different when it's your mom. I always thought of grandma as mom. she was more of a mom to me than my own mother was. Try to hang in there. At the point that her breathing changes.... it may be either a matter of a day or so or it could be as quick as a few hours. Hang in there.... I don't know if this helped you or not.... I hope it does. I'm also sorry if it was too graphic for what you may have expected. My thoughts are with you....
 Signature "Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
> Thank you for your kind thoughts. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Take care. > > ...lisa Julie - 12 Jan 2004 14:35 GMT My mom continues to sleep most of the time and is largely unresponsive. She keeps frowning so we decided to give her the morphine on a regular basis now instead of just waiting until we think she might be in pain. (Her cancer is in her brain only as far as we know so she's not experiencing any bone pain or anything like that). Aside from relieving any pain she might have, or air hunger if it comes to that, will morphine produce feelings of peace or "happiness" during her wakeful moments?
Also, she has a few ice chips throughout the day, but doesn't want anything else. How long can a person live without food and so little water?
Thanks,
Julie
> My wonderful mother is suffering from lung cancer that has metastasized to > her brain. She's receiving hospice care at home, and in the last couple of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Julie Alayne - 12 Jan 2004 15:59 GMT > My mom continues to sleep most of the time and is largely unresponsive. She > keeps frowning so we decided to give her the morphine on a regular basis now [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Julie You are doing all that you can Julie. Don't be concerned about the food/water intake, what will be will be from now on.
Hugs
Alayne
alexk - 12 Jan 2004 22:35 GMT My Dad lasted 8 days - with no fluid or food, he had a very large stroke and we decided to let him go. It doesn't sound like your Mom has much time left but could go on for hours to days. What does the hospice nurse say? Signs of the Active Phase of Dying a.. inability to arouse patient at all (coma) or, ability to only arouse patient with great effort but patient quickly returns to severely unresponsive state (semi-coma)
b.. severe agitation in patient, hallucinations, acting "crazy" and not in patient's normal manner or personality
c.. much longer periods of pausing in the breathing (apnea)
d.. dramatic changes in the breathing pattern including apnea, but also including very rapid breathing or cyclic changes in the patterns of breathing (such as slow progressing to very fast and then slow again, or shallow progressing to very deep breathing while also changing rate of breathing to very fast and then slow)
e.. other very abnormal breathing patterns
f.. severely increased respiratory congestion or fluid buildup in lungs
g.. inability to swallow any fluids at all (not taking any food by mouth voluntarily as well)
h.. patient states that he or she is going to die
i.. patient breathing through wide open mouth continuously and no longer can speak even if awake
j.. urinary or bowel incontinence in a patient who was not incontinent before
k.. marked decrease in urine output and darkening color of urine or very abnormal colors (such as red or brown)
l.. blood pressure dropping dramatically from patient's normal blood pressure range (more than a 20 or 30 point drop)
m.. systolic blood pressure below 70, diastolic blood pressure below 50
n.. patient's extremities (such as hands, arms, feet and legs) feel very cold to touch
o.. patient complains that his or her legs/feet are numb and cannot be felt at all
p.. cyanosis, or a bluish or purple coloring to the patients arms and legs, especially the feet and hands)
q.. patient's body is held in rigid unchanging position
Julie - 13 Jan 2004 01:08 GMT Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They put the mask on her face and she simply didn't inhale. That was it. She had basically been panting for about a day and it seemed that perhaps she decided not to fight it anymore. Thank God she's no longer suffering. Thank you all for your kind thoughts.
Julie
> My mom continues to sleep most of the time and is largely unresponsive. She > keeps frowning so we decided to give her the morphine on a regular basis now [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > Julie J - 13 Jan 2004 01:43 GMT > Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They > put the mask on her face and she simply didn't inhale. That was it. She had > basically been panting for about a day and it seemed that perhaps she > decided not to fight it anymore. Thank God she's no longer suffering. Thank > you all for your kind thoughts. I'm so sorry hun. I know she and you made peace and how proud she was of you.. and she knew how much you loved her. Your mother will always be with you. http://www.poofcat.com/family5.html (personal favorite even many years since Mom died)
Stay with us if it will be of comfort to you. ( ( ( Julie and family ) ) ) J
alexk - 13 Jan 2004 04:17 GMT So sorry....it is do hard to loose your mother. but she is no longer suffering now. Take care of your self. Alex
> > Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ( ( ( Julie and family ) ) ) > J slykitten - 13 Jan 2004 02:41 GMT I'm sorry for your loss....
 Signature "Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
> Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > > > > > Julie Trish Knight - 13 Jan 2004 03:45 GMT > Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Julie Dear Julie, I'm so sorry about your mother. I hope you'll take comfort in the fact that she's no longer suffering, and that you'll remember lots and lots of happy times. You're a good daughter.
Hugs, Trish
Alayne - 13 Jan 2004 07:51 GMT > Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > > >My thoughts are with you and your family Julie, I am sorry for your loss but your mother's battle is now over and may she finally rest in peace.
Alayne
Lisasbucc - 13 Jan 2004 12:58 GMT >Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. Please accept my sympathies on her passing. I'm glad that she did not have to suffer any longer.
Take care. ...lisa
Emily - 13 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT anon@anon.com said...
> Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. {{{{{{{{Julie}}}}}}}}}
Jill - 14 Jan 2004 01:10 GMT > Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Julie Julie, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. My thoughts and prayers are forever with you. We are always here for you, if you need us. Jill
Julie - 14 Jan 2004 03:41 GMT I've been preparing for her death for almost a year and still it is so hard!!! I can't stop crying. All I can think about is the fact that my 11-mos. old will never know his marvelous grandmother and that I will never have the benefit of her parenting advice (and she was truly a great parent (except when it came to ensuring clean air for her children!))...I suppose grief IS all about the person who's left behind. Don't get me wrong - I am truly grateful she is no longer trapped inside that broken body, but I am also so heartbroken and so angry!
Why, even though my siblings and I implored her year after year to go get a physical and chest x-ray, did she refuse to do it? They could have caught her lung cancer much earlier. It didn't have to be fatal! Why did she have to smoke for 50 years when we begged her for at least the last 25 of those years to quit? Why did she have to be so arrogant even though she knew full well her own father died of lung cancer, her sister died of bladder cancer and she herself had cervical cancer, for God's sake!
I know her parental obligations ended when her own children were grown, so she was certainly under no obligation to stick around for her grandchildren's sake, but I know she didn't want to die and her death seems so stupid, so senseless. I know there are no answers to these questions, nor do they change the fact that she is dead but I miss her so much... :(
Thanks for listening,
Julie
> > Well, my dear mother is finally at peace. She was struggling for breath this > > morning and severely congested and the hospice nurse called for oxygen. They [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are forever with you. We are always here for you, if you need us. > Jill Alayne - 14 Jan 2004 07:49 GMT > I've been preparing for her death for almost a year and still it is so > hard!!! I can't stop crying. All I can think about is the fact that my [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Julie Yes Julie, the death of those that we love so dear is truly hard. Even though we "prepare" ourselves beforehand, it still comes as an almighty shock and we are left so bereft.
Don't knock yourself for crying, we all do it and "those that feel deeply will grieve deeply". Yes, grief is all about the person left behind and there is nothing wrong with that. It's like being split in two, we are relieved that their suffering is over but part of us wants them to carry on forever, no matter how ill they are.
There is an old cliche that it gets better with time, and right now you won't think that, but it does, the tear rivers dwindle slightly at first and then you suddenly notice that a memory trigger makes you smile rather than cry and then when you do cry it is perhaps just for minutes.
It is also okay to feel angry, it is all part of natural emotions that we experience when we encounter death.
You will get through it Julie rest assured and you will treasure your memories that you do have.
Hugs right to you now.
Alayne>
Jill - 14 Jan 2004 14:04 GMT > I've been preparing for her death for almost a year and still it is so > hard!!! I can't stop crying. All I can think about is the fact that my [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Julie Julie, My father-in-law has lung cancer for over 2 years now, I have been trying to prepare my husband and myself for his death. I lost my Dad and my grandma to cancer and I have cancer. My grandma never smoked, drank or even drove a car. It was just her fate. She died after my Dad, and she didn't want to suffer like him. And I didn't want her to either, I told her it was okay to go. As for your Mother, you will pass her on to your children. With the wisdom and love she gave you. You will know the right ways to raise your children, she raised you. You will find yourself saying,"Grandma used to say." I to love my Mom very much, she is my best friend. When I lose her, I can't think how it will effect me. Very bad I'm sure. And I will cry and cry, just as you will for your Mom. It's okay to cry your heart out. But please remember as a mother, you wouldn't want your children to be unhappy forever. (((Julie))) Jill
Tanada - 15 Jan 2004 04:26 GMT > I know her parental obligations ended when her own children were grown, so > she was certainly under no obligation to stick around for her > grandchildren's sake, but I know she didn't want to die and her death seems > so stupid, so senseless. I know there are no answers to these questions, nor > do they change the fact that she is dead but I miss her so much... :( ((((((HUGS)))))) Julie. As an ex nicotine addict, I can tell you this from experience. You can't force a smoker to quit. Smokers who quit for others are doomed to failure, they have to quit for themselves. And, most smokers try to quit multiple times before they finally succeed.
I'd still be smoking if I hadn't woke up one morning, smelled the stale smoke in the air, looked at an overflowing ash tray, and thought "I'm 41, I want to live a longer life. What in h*ll am I doing to myself." I was finally ready to quit. Before then, I had tried to quit, but never made it.
I'm very sorry about your mother and her cancer. I don't know why she wouldn't get chest x-rays. She didn't want to face the truth about her medical condition, would be my guess.
Whatever the reason, nothing will ever be able to replace your mom. You'll always miss her. But someday you'll find yourself thinking about her and it won't hurt as much. On that day, you'll post in here, and we'll all rejoice with you.
Please take care of yourself. We love you and care about you and how you're doing.
Healing purrs from our kitties for your loss, and healing thoughts and wishes from us here.
Pam, Rob, and the NC nine (our cats)
Ignoramus28064 - 16 Jan 2004 13:55 GMT > I've been preparing for her death for almost a year and still it is so > hard!!! I can't stop crying. All I can think about is the fact that my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > truly grateful she is no longer trapped inside that broken body, but I am > also so heartbroken and so angry! It is very sad indeed to lose your parent without having the parent experience being a grandparent, etc.
> Why, even though my siblings and I implored her year after year to go get a > physical and chest x-ray, did she refuse to do it? Probably would not do much for lung cancer anyway.
> They could have caught > her lung cancer much earlier. It didn't have to be fatal! Why did she have > to smoke for 50 years when we begged her for at least the last 25 of those > years to quit? denial
> Why did she have to be so arrogant even though she knew full > well her own father died of lung cancer, her sister died of bladder cancer > and she herself had cervical cancer, for God's sake! Almost everyone who is grieving is going through phases, they are called denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. You seem to be in the anger phase presently.
Surely cancer, to a large extent, is caused by factors which are within an individual's control. But, we all make mistakes and your mother made some as well. Make sure that you do not make same mistakes. Don't smoke, don't overeat, and do not eat overfried and overprocessed stuff. Teach the kid some healthy habits also. Make it into a learning experience and make sure that her memory is preserved for your 11 months old.
Good luck.
i
Julie - 16 Jan 2004 14:21 GMT > > I've been preparing for her death for almost a year and still it is so > > hard!!! I can't stop crying. All I can think about is the fact that my [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > i I don't smoke, overeat, or eat many fried or processed foods. The baby gets vegetables and fruit three times a day. No sugar, fried or processed foods so far. We're trying to give him healthy eating habits and will impress upon him the importance of taking care of his health, which includes exercise.
I realize my mother simply rolled the dice when she decided to smoke (and continue to smoke). She lost, and it isn't any more complicated than that.
I'm still angry, though, and I'm still heartbroken.
Ignoramus28064 - 16 Jan 2004 21:18 GMT > I don't smoke, overeat, or eat many fried or processed foods. The baby gets > vegetables and fruit three times a day. No sugar, fried or processed foods [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm still angry, though, and I'm still heartbroken. At least I am happy that you are trying to raise your little one in a healthy manner. I hope that this terrible disease spares the rest of your family.
i
Gert Wallage - 17 Jan 2004 17:54 GMT Hi Julie,
> I realize my mother simply rolled the dice when she decided to > smoke (and continue to smoke). She lost, and it isn't any more > complicated than that. > > I'm still angry, though, and I'm still heartbroken. Dear Julie,
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your beloved mother, and the anguish you are feeling. No matter how long you've prepared for her death, it still hurts like crazy when your Mom is gone. I'm glad, at least, that you had the chance to say a full and loving goodbye, and that her passing was peaceful.
My own mother died earlier this year from advanced cancer of the colon and pancreas; it had also begun to spread to the spleen and liver. Because of the cell type, we knew it hadn't started in the colon or pancreas; but we never found the primary site. Mom used to smoke a lot, so her oncologist thought it possible that her cancer began in the lung, metastasized to other sites, then spontaneously healed in the primary site (this does sometimes happen). But here's the really sad thing: my mother stopped smoking in 1976. That's *27 years* before her death. If the damage caused by her smoking was the cause of her cancer, I'm certainly glad Mom quit when she did ... but I'm so sorry she ever started in the first place.
I went around for months - I still do sometimes - feeling fury at the sight of someone smoking a cigarette, knowing the physical and mental suffering they may cause themselves and their loved ones. It's particularly hard when you know that some illness can be avoided, but isn't. Sadly, often people only learn this through bitter experience.
Anyway, many of us here have lost family and friends to cancer, so you are welcome to post as much as you need - it really does help. The group alt.support.grief also has some wonderful people who have gone through the hurt you are feeling. Please keep posting.
{{{hugs and prayers for you and your Mom}}}
Gert
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