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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / December 2003

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new poster --trying to come to terms with my Dad's Renal cancer

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Russell - 27 Dec 2003 15:43 GMT
Hi

Just thought I would stop by here to see if people are experiencing the same
as me

My Dad (71) has been diagnosed with renal cancer , it took 6 months of
hospital visits before they discovered why he was having stomach pains, they
have found out now , finally that it is renal cancer that he has probably
had it for several years .
It has spread to his liver, lungs, bones , ribs.

They won't give him a time scale , says its to unpredictable , but he is in
enough pain to need morphine everyday.

Doctor has told me , probably less than a year and maybe only a few months

My Dad seems to be getting very angry with my mother for some reason , as if
he is taking out the pain on her , he says he can't help it but feels such
rage.

I live in Canada and they are in Wales , although I have been over , he now
wants me to stay away and says there will be time for me to come over when
he really needs me, this makes me feel unwanted ,

Help confused and worried

Russ

--
Emily - 27 Dec 2003 15:50 GMT
v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> I live in Canada and they are in Wales ,

Whereabouts?  I'm in southeast Wales if that's any help; my mother's
recently had surgery to remove a malignancy from her mouth.
Russell - 27 Dec 2003 16:44 GMT
Bridgend
> v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> > I live in Canada and they are in Wales ,
>
> Whereabouts?  I'm in southeast Wales if that's any help; my mother's
> recently had surgery to remove a malignancy from her mouth.
Emily - 27 Dec 2003 22:47 GMT
v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> > v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> > > I live in Canada and they are in Wales ,
> >
> > Whereabouts?  I'm in southeast Wales if that's any help; my mother's
> > recently had surgery to remove a malignancy from her mouth.

> Bridgend

About an hour's drive away from me (Rhondda), and also very near to
where my brother in law lives (Pyle).  Is there anything we (my
husband and I) can do to help?  You can email me if you like at
cymoedd at care four free dot net, where the 'four' is a figure
rather than a word.
Russell - 27 Dec 2003 16:44 GMT
bridgend
> v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> > I live in Canada and they are in Wales ,
>
> Whereabouts?  I'm in southeast Wales if that's any help; my mother's
> recently had surgery to remove a malignancy from her mouth.
J - 27 Dec 2003 17:15 GMT
> Just thought I would stop by here to see if people are experiencing the same
> as me
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> wants me to stay away and says there will be time for me to come over when he
> really needs me, this makes me feel unwanted,

Hello Russell,
I'm very sorry about the whole situation. It must be so frustrating you.
I don't know that we've had someone with so many organs affected all at once
lately.

We've had several in the past 6 months or so, who lived far away from their
loved ones with advanced cancer.
Unfortunately, we've not heard lately from them here.
I was in that position, Mom (in BC) had lung cancer and I wasn't told until
about a week before she died.

A time frame is very often difficult. And with kidney cancer, there can be blood
loss and high BP problems.
Just the bone pain alone sounds excruciating and perhaps partly why he's on the
morphine, which makes it doubly difficult to prognosticate, because usually when
on morphine, we're liable to be thinking very soon.

Is he not able to have radiation therapy where he is <question> sorry, my
keyboard is acting up.
Most often, treatment is given on an outpatient basis in a hospital or clinic 5
days a week for several weeks. This schedule helps protect normal tissue by
spreading out the total dose of radiation.
The reason that I'm asking is that there might be a limit to how much pain
control they can give him without actually hastening his death.  Is he in
palliative care or hospice <question>
Is he at home or in hospital  <question>

To further complicate mental status, pain and perhaps prognosis, is the
possibility of hypercalemia which in of itself can be life-ending. Not to
mention stones. Is that being treated, if applicable <question>
http://www.cancer.gov/cancerinfo/pdq/supportivecare/hypercalcemia/patient/

My thinking would be to get the pain under control, then see if his attitude
towards your mother would improve.
Or is that just his nature <question>
I know Dad was always hard on Mom, but his "bark was worse than his bite".  But
when Dad died, it was not from the previous cancer, but an infection perhaps
associated with his ostomy.  And he was mellowed with us and had no pain.

Once the pain and other issues are sorted out, then we have left a generally
grumpy disposition or a need to want to protect you from seeing him suffer or
not wanting someone hovering over him or flying back and forth, since his time
left with you is really so unpredictable, at this point.

Emily is a very nice lady, but I wouldn't want her walking in on a bad
situation. If she lives near, maybe she can talk with your mother by the
telephone and keep in touch that way, for you.<question>.  Do not post telephone
numbers here.
I see you  e-mail is not munged <question>, so perhaps if possible, Emily can
e-mail you <question>

First though, could you please try to answer my questions <sorry about the
keyboard thing - question>
Hang in there, despite technical difficulties, we'll help as best we can.
J
Russell - 27 Dec 2003 21:07 GMT
Hi J

Ok to answer questions

The spread of the cancer is what makes them think he has had it for so long
he is a very active (was I should say now) athlete with an extremely high
pain tolerance,

Just the bone pain alone sounds excruciating and perhaps partly why he's on
the  morphine,

The morphine is to help with the stomach pains he has experinced which was
what made him see a doctor in the first

Radiation therapy is not an option for him apart from zapping the problem
with his ribs (that is what doctors tell me)
Chemo was not considered an option because that is not going to cure him
I should have mentioned that they originally planned to remove the kidney
and give him the whole 9 yds of radiation chemo etc
However they found an undiagnosed heart valve problem that would make
surgery way to risky and basically have told him it is terminal.

He is at home and trying to carry on life as normal as possible although his
muscles are deteriating and he seems unable to walk as much as he used to
enjoy.

he is being monitored for hypercalemia and as of yet his levels are normal
,but they are testing his blood on a weekly basis

My Dad's nature has always been very mellow and he has the pain under
control , it seems that his anger is over the fact that he is dying and he
won't see his grandson (HIS ENTIRE FOCUS) grow up.
His anger comes and goes but she seems to be getting the worse of it (its
only verbal) . He admits he doesn't mean to upset her and I know that some
of the anger is focused on making her responsible for everything he normally
takes care of , sort of putting his house in order , she doesn't want the
responabilities or perhaps for her taking them on is accepting the
inevitable.

I think not wanting to see me is either pride in not wanting to see him so
weak (always a proud strong man) or thinking of me in practical terms ie my
job flights etc , wish I knew

Emily can contact me if she wants but I don't think a phone call would help

Russell
Emily - 27 Dec 2003 22:47 GMT
v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> Emily can contact me if she wants but I don't think a phone call would help

I've got company for a couple of days now, but I'll be in touch
soon, I promise.  Meanwhile, please accept some {{{{{hugs}}}}} from
the other side of the mountain.
J - 28 Dec 2003 02:38 GMT
> [snipped answers to questions]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> However they found an undiagnosed heart valve problem that would make
> surgery way to risky and basically have told him it is terminal.

Yes, well kidney surgery isn't easy anyhow and it rather sounds like it had
already spread.

> He is at home and trying to carry on life as normal as possible although his
> muscles are deteriating and he seems unable to walk as much as he used to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> control , it seems that his anger is over the fact that he is dying and he
> won't see his grandson (HIS ENTIRE FOCUS) grow up.

I'm very sorry about that.  I think some have suggested making a "memory book"
of thoughts and photos for the grandchild to know later how important he was to
his grandfather.

> His anger comes and goes but she seems to be getting the worse of it (its
> only verbal) . He admits he doesn't mean to upset her and I know that some
> of the anger is focused on making her responsible for everything he normally
> takes care of , sort of putting his house in order , she doesn't want the
> responabilities or perhaps for her taking them on is accepting the
> inevitable.

Perhaps both. Perhaps he's in some sort of denial and if you flew over, to him
it would confirm that which he does not want to face?
It's a shame your mother has to go through this on her own. She could probably
use your support and perspective during these trying "arrangements" especially
if he's difficult to approach or talk with. A lot of these issues involve what
he wants (or doesn't) for his care, wills, funeral, power of attorney of care
and advanced directives.

> I think not wanting to see me is either pride in not wanting to see him so
> weak (always a proud strong man) or thinking of me in practical terms ie my
> job flights etc , wish I knew

Maybe both? (Dad was like that).  My sister is rather "pushy" and told him she
had some "time" coming at work and she was going <end of story - no arguments>
and helped with the paperwork and some preliminary arrangements.  Then he
rallied, then relapsed, so she went out again and he rallied while awaiting a
room in longterm care.  Then he relapsed a month or so later.  We all went once
we obtained an honest assessment, he only had a week or so left and could barely
speak at the time, sadly.

Will he not speak with you on the telephone and explain his reasons for not
wanting you to go?
At that time, you could express how much you wish to see him while he is well
enough to still (for instance) go for walks.

> Emily can contact me if she wants but I don't think a phone call would help

Perhaps not, unless her husband can be of assist with your father.
Or perhaps there's another male nearby with whom he'd be receptive to talking a
bit about his feelings. A neighbour, an ex-co-worker, a minister, counsellor at
the cancer centre.

It's so difficult being so far away.  When closeby or in the same household, if
the person is not receptive, we can say "oh well, I'll try later today or
tomorrow" but if you make a trip and he's not receptive to talking or seeing
you....

But really, isn't it up to you? I mean, if you just go, surely he won't turn you
away?
J
Emily - 27 Dec 2003 22:47 GMT
RetroSpect@invalid.inv said...
> Hang in there, [...] we'll help as best we can.

Ditto :-)
J - 27 Dec 2003 20:51 GMT
Hello Russell,

I forgot to tell you there's also private ACOR lists at www.acor.org
For instance: Kidney http://listserv.acor.org/archives/kidney-onc.html
and metastatic http://listserv.acor.org/archives/metastatic.html

Also some (of) what your father might experience in the future might be here.
http://crossingthecreek.com/guts.htm

There's a number of regulars here, Alayne, Emily, Steph (radiation oncologist -
Canada), Mike in palliative care in Australia) and a number of others.
If you just feel like ventiing or want someone to listen or an understanding
shoulder to lean on, we'll be here reading.

Questions? Ask away, someone will help, if possible.

HTH,
J
Alayne - 27 Dec 2003 22:07 GMT
> Hello Russell,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> HTH,
> J

Hello Russell,

Very sorry to learn of the situation regarding your father.  I am no medic -
I simply was a carer for my husband who died recently of a Glioblastoma
Brain Tumour.  I totally emphathise with the situation you and your mother
are in right now.  Life simply doesn't feel fair does it?  I understand your
father's anger too, this is an emotion that you too may experience at some
point once the shock of the diagnosis has worn off.  It took me a while
before I started shouting (I was actually ironing at the time!) but it is
quite a good release valve sometimes.  As for your father taking it out on
your mother - people usually vent their frustrations on those they love
dearest.

As J said above, if you want to have a good rant yourself, I have some good
ears to listen.

It's a rocky road to travel - but be assured there are plenty of people here
for you.

Hugs Now.

Alayne
Emily - 27 Dec 2003 23:03 GMT
totallyfake@emailaddress.com said...
> As for your father taking it out on
> your mother - people usually vent their frustrations on those they love
> dearest.

My mother, who is looking over my shoulder, has reminded me that
years ago she used to help care for an elderly lady whose even more
elderly mother was getting upset that her formerly sweet-natured
daughter was always cross and rude.  The daughter had had a tumour
removed from her brain and her personality had changed a lot; sadly,
not for the better.  I also remember that my parents had friends,
one of whom had had some sort of brain surgery: her sense of humour
seemed to just vanish.  It's very sad, but it seems to be a feature
of brain surgery of this nature.  ISTM the message here is to try
not to take this sort of thing personally, no matter how hard that
is - and it is, believe me.  Neither of the ladies I've mentioned
would normally have spoken or acted before surgery in the way they
did after.  I think you just have to bear with it and learn to be
*very* tolerant.

And I've just realised that I haven't got the original post to hand,
and therefore I can't see if the bit I've replied to is relevant or
not... If it's not, please ignore me and I'll get my coat quick
sharp.  If it is, then I hope I've managed to help to put
something into perspective.  In either case, have some
{{{{{hugs}}}}}
J - 27 Dec 2003 23:22 GMT
> totallyfake@emailaddress.com said...
> > As for your father taking it out on
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> not to take this sort of thing personally, no matter how hard that
> is - and it is, believe me.

I think all three of you are "spot on" as they say, except I hope the OP's
mother has some respite from it.
Able to get away from the situation and get support for herself too,
otherwise both the fact that her husband is dying and her husband being cross
with her, can surely drag a person down, if she's all alone in the situation.

That too must be a worry for the OP since he lives so far away from them
both.  Canada must be what...8 ? hours away from London, England by air
(don't know if air goes to a major centre in Wales or what).
hugs all.
J
Emily - 29 Dec 2003 01:22 GMT
v6firebird@rogers.com said...
> My Dad seems to be getting very angry with my mother for some reason , as if
> he is taking out the pain on her , he says he can't help it but feels such
> rage.

Hi Russ

I had a word with my BiL in Bridgend this afternoon: he had
treatment for colorectal cancer a few years back in what I suppose
is the 'main' hospital in Bridgend these days.  I asked him if he
knew of any cancer support groups in the area.  Apparently there's a
hospice somewhere near (IIRC) Kenfig Hill that has a day centre
where people can drop in; also he reminded me of the existence of
BACUP, who in his opinion might be a useful first port of call.  
ISTM that even if your father doesn't want to know, your mother
could probably use the support.  Unfortunately, looking at their
'local centres' link on their web site elicits nothing in Wales at
all, let alone in Bridgend; however there's a freefone number to the
UK hotline (0808 800 1234) for "for information and support from our
specialist nurses" which might be worth a try.  Their main website
is at http://www.cancerbacup.org.uk/Home

I'm not going to force myself on anyone; just so that you know
though I'm still here, so if I can help in any way please feel free
to let me know and I'll give it a go.  
Signature

Emily (Rhondda, S Wales)

Russell - 30 Dec 2003 18:02 GMT
Hi everyone

Thnak you all for the kind words and interest in our problems

Just spoke to my dad today and he has had the doctor back out and the doctor
had a chat with my mum as well.
It appears that a lot of my Dad's anger in regarding my mum being unwilling
to come to terms with what is happening ,
The Doctor said my dad is the one thats ill but my mum is the patient.
He feels she is hoping it will all go away if she hids from it ,
unfortunally it won't
he is going to give her something to help her depression wihich hopefully
will balance things out

Thanks emily for the suggestions
Dad goes to Y Bwthyn Newydd (McMillanCancer Hospice) every week and this
seems to help, he has actually given a few shows there as a thank you
(forgot to mention he is a singer and amazingly is still giving show at the
holiday home for the elderly in Porthcawl).

Where in the Rhondda are you ?

Dad is from Porth Mum from Tonyrefail some of my  relatives still live up
the Rhondda , mostly penygraig area , although most of the kids like me
moved away

Well thats all for now
Here is hoping that things will get easier for them

Russell
Alayne - 30 Dec 2003 18:48 GMT
> Hi everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Russell

Hi Russell,

It is good that your dad goes to the day centre at the hospice regularly, I
wonder if there is any chance that you mum can be offered something there
too??  When Tony was in a hospice they also offered a "carers" day, I didn't
attend myself (too busy with children etc.) but they offered all sorts like
aromatherapy massages or more simply a chance to meet/chat with other carers
in similar situations.

I can also understand why your doc. thinks your mum is the patient although
it is your dad that is ill.  She has a whole load of issues to deal with too
and sometimes we "cope" by not facing them, she may well in time, in her own
way.  My husband had a GBM4 brain tumour and we never talked about his
demise, other than in the far far distant future, even when the symptoms
were for all to see.  We felt that if we faced it then we accepted it and
were not ready to give up the fight.

Let's hope that the meds. for her also help a little - does she have anyone
that she can express her fears to?

Hugs now.

Alayne
 
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