Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / May 2007
the latest on my friend's husband
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Giuditta - 20 May 2007 13:03 GMT The following is an email my friend sent me, more about her husband's condition...keep in mind that he hasn't had a biopsy just the CT scan. Isn't two months a bit long to wait to see what's going on with him? Can they determine from a CT scan if a cancer is fast-growing or not?
Thanks, Judy
The doctor said that lesions over 5mm are usually cancerous and those under 5mm are usually benign. Randall's are 3mm and 4mm at this point. He also said that noncalcified lesions are more likely cancerous than calcified lesions, and Randall has one of each. The most pressing issue right now is the emphysema that showed up on the cat scan. The doctor told him that within 1-2 years he will be on oxygen if he does not stop smoking now. He started him on Chantix, and he goes back in a couple of months for another cat scan to monitor the growth, if any, of the two lesions. If there is any growth at all, they will do what they need to do then. Hopefully by then, he will be off the cigarettes.
Steven Vaughan - 21 May 2007 03:05 GMT > The following is an email my friend sent me, more about her husband's > condition...keep in mind that he hasn't had a biopsy just the CT scan. > Isn't two months a bit long to wait to see what's going on with him? Can > they determine from a CT scan if a cancer is fast-growing or not? No, with nodules that small 2 months is probably entirely appropriate. The doubling rate for most lung cancers is between 30-365 days. Doubling under 30 days or over 365 days is usually benign. So, if he goes back and they've grown in 60 days, I'll bet they do a PET scan. But if he goes back and they haven't changed in size, they'll do yet another CT in a few more months to "watch" them.
The most important thing for your friend's hubby to do is stop smoking. If he does this, he will be a better candidate for whatever measures might need to be taken later on if he has cancer or emphysema. I smoked for 27 years, and quit after the first week on Chantix. It's hard, but that's what he has to do if he wants to live. Your friend should also be assured that her husband's nodules and his swollen lymph node are VERY small. My 14mm lung nodule is still considered VERY small and most likely 100% curable if cancerous with no metastases. (Pet scan shows no other suspect areas)
From the information presented, your friend's hubby probably doesn't have cancer, and if he does, it's likely very early and very treatable. He needs to stop smoking now.
Steph - 21 May 2007 08:32 GMT >> The following is an email my friend sent me, more about her husband's >> condition...keep in mind that he hasn't had a biopsy just the CT scan. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and they haven't changed in size, they'll do yet another CT in a few more > months to "watch" them. No wonder the health care system is on its uppers..............
> The most important thing for your friend's hubby to do is stop smoking. If > he does this, he will be a better candidate for whatever measures might [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > curable if cancerous with no metastases. (Pet scan shows no other suspect > areas) Where on earth did those figures come from?
> From the information presented, your friend's hubby probably doesn't have > cancer, and if he does, it's likely very early and very treatable. He > needs to stop smoking now. At last, some sense.
Steven Vaughan - 21 May 2007 08:47 GMT >> The most important thing for your friend's hubby to do is stop smoking. >> If [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Where on earth did those figures come from? Dr. Hon Chi Suen, Cardio-Thoracic Surgeon. He performed my Mediastinoscopy and Brochoscopy last month.
>> From the information presented, your friend's hubby probably doesn't have >> cancer, and if he does, it's likely very early and very treatable. He >> needs to stop smoking now. > > At last, some sense. Care to enlighten us on what you're talking about?
Steph - 21 May 2007 19:35 GMT >>> The most important thing for your friend's hubby to do is stop smoking. >>> If [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Dr. Hon Chi Suen, Cardio-Thoracic Surgeon. He performed my Mediastinoscopy > and Brochoscopy last month. Wel, if you heard him right, he's making the figures up.
>>> From the information presented, your friend's hubby probably doesn't >>> have cancer, and if he does, it's likely very early and very treatable. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Care to enlighten us on what you're talking about? The last paragraph of your post was sensible. The rest wasn't
J - 21 May 2007 19:46 GMT > "Steven Vaughan" <srv@doubletrouble.com> wrote in message > [reinserted. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > The last paragraph of your post was sensible. The rest wasn't I guess Cardio-Thoracic Surgeons need (to read) your book as well. How's that coming along, Steph? Then you could reply "read Chapter or Page XX". J
Steven Vaughan - 21 May 2007 22:45 GMT >> Care to enlighten us on what you're talking about? > > The last paragraph of your post was sensible. The rest wasn't Please enlighten me on what was not sensible. Please be specific. If there is something I need to know, I would appreciate it if you would tell me.
Steph - 22 May 2007 07:31 GMT >>> Care to enlighten us on what you're talking about? >> >> The last paragraph of your post was sensible. The rest wasn't > > Please enlighten me on what was not sensible. Please be specific. If there > is something I need to know, I would appreciate it if you would tell me. Go back and read your own posts. Dissect them analytically, and throw away any opinion not supported by the data
Steven Vaughan - 22 May 2007 07:41 GMT >> Please enlighten me on what was not sensible. Please be specific. If >> there [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dissect them analytically, and throw away any opinion not supported by the > data Well, either the data the that my Pulmonologist and my Cardiothoracic Surgeon have both provided is wrong, as well as everything I've been able to find on the subject of my lung nodule and lymph node in written form, or it is spot on.
If you have valuable information that could help me in my own care, would you care to share it instead of speaking in riddles? Thanks so much.
Steph - 22 May 2007 15:56 GMT >>> Please enlighten me on what was not sensible. Please be specific. If >>> there [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > If you have valuable information that could help me in my own care, would > you care to share it instead of speaking in riddles? Thanks so much. Look up doubling times and the cure rate for T1 N0 nsclc for a start
Steven Vaughan - 22 May 2007 18:09 GMT >> Well, either the data the that my Pulmonologist and my Cardiothoracic >> Surgeon have both provided is wrong, as well as everything I've been able [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Look up doubling times and the cure rate for T1 N0 nsclc for a start Doubling times are between 30 and 365 days in THE MAJORITY of cases. Less than 30, or more than 365 days are AN INDICATION of being benign.
"Cure rate" does not take into account one's age, etc. When this is factored in, my asymptomatic 14mm spiculated nodule (IF it is T1 N0 nsclc) in the right upper lobe is very close to 100% curable (5 yr survival rate) because of my health, age (42), and where it is located. They ruled out lymphoma last month with mediastinoscopy- it's inflammation. The nodule is removable with a wedge resection, using a minimally invasive (2" incision) procedure invented by my Cardio-thoracic surgeon, Dr Hon Chi Suen.
"Cure rates" are falsely low for all types of lung cancer since the median age when diagnosed is about 70 years of age, when many people will die of other causes within 5 years anyway. If you are a younger person, and look at the stats for people your own age, the "cure rate" is dramatically higher than published percentages, which do not take age into account.
Could I have a recurrence of the same type of cancer later on? Sure. Does that mean I should just "give up" as you seem to be suggesting? No way.
Now, if you're speaking of the OP's "friend's husband", from initial information, the man probably has 2 very small granulomas (3mm & 4mm) and a VERY SLIGHTLY enlarged lymph node (1 cm), which are no reason to start buying burial plots just yet. Both "tumors" are not only VERY common, but are also smaller than a pea. The lymph node is so slightly enlarged I'm surprised they even mentioned it to him. She never did say whether they were round, lobulated, or spiculated.
I'm curious- My surgeon was educated at Harvard Medical School, and did his surgical residencies at Harvard Beth Israel and Massachusetts General, and trains Cardio-thoracic surgical residents at Washington University (Barnes Hospital). Which University did you attend? Where did you do your surgical residency? And how many surgical techniques have you invented to help those suffering from disease? What is your "cure rate"?
Giuditta - 23 May 2007 00:34 GMT She never did say whether they were round, lobulated, or spiculated.
Hi Steven!
She didn't say anything about the shape of the nodules. If I hear anything else, I'll let you know. Thanks...and, no, don't give up. I have met so may people through this who have outlived their prognosis by years.
One friend's prognosis was six months, and he's still here after five years and been on clinical studies recently. In June he will be given RAD. Have you ever heard of it?
He looks great, still works and his cancer is quite extensive. Another friend has tumors on her thyroid, and after two rounds of chemo, the onc. can't see them at all...he was trying to shrink them for surgery, but now he says he doesn't think she'll even need the surgery at all...
So, you just never know do ya...
Ciao! Judy
Steph - 23 May 2007 04:00 GMT >>> Well, either the data the that my Pulmonologist and my Cardiothoracic >>> Surgeon have both provided is wrong, as well as everything I've been [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > surgical residency? And how many surgical techniques have you invented to > help those suffering from disease? What is your "cure rate"? I'm sure you'll be very happy with him. I'm not a surgeon, I'm an oncologist, and I'm not getting into a pissing contest with him because of you. However, I do know what I'm talking about, but you clearly know better
Steven Vaughan - 23 May 2007 04:08 GMT >> I'm curious- My surgeon was educated at Harvard Medical School, and did >> his surgical residencies at Harvard Beth Israel and Massachusetts [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > contest with him because of you. However, I do know what I'm talking > about, but you clearly know better You've never offered any information. None. Nada. Sure would be NICE if an oncologist piped in and offered opinions....
The only thing you've done is question my info. If you were truly here to help, you would have provided info for me to peruse. You are still welcome to do so. What are you waiting for?
Steph - 23 May 2007 04:54 GMT >>> I'm curious- My surgeon was educated at Harvard Medical School, and did >>> his surgical residencies at Harvard Beth Israel and Massachusetts [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > help, you would have provided info for me to peruse. You are still welcome > to do so. What are you waiting for? You chimed in with authoritative statements advising someone else posting here. Statements about how many CT scans and PET scans were appropriate. I was simply pointing out the error of your ways, and the profligate stupidity of the US system at its worst.
If you don't like it, ignore me. I'm sorry I bothered
Steven Vaughan - 23 May 2007 05:56 GMT > You chimed in with authoritative statements advising someone else posting > here. Statements about how many CT scans and PET scans were appropriate. I > was simply pointing out the error of your ways, and the profligate > stupidity of the US system at its worst. > > If you don't like it, ignore me. I'm sorry I bothered I offered my opinion, as requested. My considered opinion is based on my own very recent, ongoing experience with very similar physical characteristics as the OP's person in question. Of course one size doesn't fit all, but I believe I conveyed the fact that a pair of 3 and 4mm pulmonary nodules are not necessarily the end of the world. The person in question is under a doctor's care, and the doctor has apparently ordered follow-up CT.
What information could you provide the OP? Or me, for that matter? I would think that an oncologist would at least be able to offer some general information, given the limited information presented.
You speak in riddles, and don't really give any information. Is this how you treat patients? I sure hope not.
I ask again- Please provide us (potential cancer patients) with any information that might be helpful given the information yoyu have thus far. Correct any data that is erroneous. I'm ASKING you to do this. Nicely, I think. I've said "please" numerous times.
Steph - 23 May 2007 07:37 GMT >> You chimed in with authoritative statements advising someone else posting >> here. Statements about how many CT scans and PET scans were appropriate. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > far. Correct any data that is erroneous. I'm ASKING you to do this. > Nicely, I think. I've said "please" numerous times. No, you certainly did not provide a useful opinion I will say this: Small pulmonary nodules are common, and usually benign Having CT scans and PET scans for no good reason is stupid Exrtrapolating your personal experience is dangerous Not everyone lives in the USA
Steven Vaughan - 23 May 2007 22:23 GMT >> I ask again- Please provide us (potential cancer patients) with any >> information that might be helpful given the information yoyu have thus [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Exrtrapolating your personal experience is dangerous > Not everyone lives in the USA So, discovering 3mm and 4mm pulmonary nodules isn't a good reason for follow-up CT? What IS the proper follow-up (if any) in your opinion?
What about my 14mm spiculated nodule that was accidentally found on chest CT when I was having a gallbladder attacklast month? (I had both abdomen and chest CT's) Rather than the follow-up PET and subsequent finding of a 1.8 cm lymph node (2 cm from the nodule in the Mediastinum) with +3.0 SUV uptake in addition to the nodule (which shows no uptake) what would you have done? Is there a better approach to my nodule than the follow-up CT that I will have 7 weeks from now? Keep in mind my lymph node is inflammation- still awaiting fungal culture results. No bacterial or viral organisms present. Suspected to be Sarcoidosis, Histoplasmosis, or other unknown former infection. If so, what to do with the nodule that can't be reached by Bronchoscopy? Surgery? Radiation? Nothing? Does the fact that I was a smoker for 27 years have a bearing on if/how to follow up? How about my age? (42) I'm still confused.
Thank you for providing info. I appreciate all the info I can get.
Steven Vaughan - 23 May 2007 22:30 GMT I forgot to add the Mediastinoscopy and cultures showed that the lymph node was a "Caseating Granuloma". (Definetly NOT non-caseating)
Steph - 24 May 2007 03:08 GMT >I forgot to add the Mediastinoscopy and cultures showed that the lymph node >was a "Caseating Granuloma". > (Definetly NOT non-caseating) Then it's not cancer in the node. All the more reason to get the spiculated lesion removed
Steven Vaughan - 24 May 2007 04:14 GMT >>I forgot to add the Mediastinoscopy and cultures showed that the lymph >>node was a "Caseating Granuloma". >> (Definetly NOT non-caseating) > > Then it's not cancer in the node. All the more reason to get the > spiculated lesion removed Yes, they stated that the node is not cancerous immediately following the Medistinoscopy. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. We are still unsure about the nodule. The wash culture on the nodule from the bronchoscopy is negative for any infection or cancer cells, but it is in a difficult place to get to. ( I am asymptomatic, of course, since they found this by mistake.) The pulmonologist strongly suspects Sarcoidosis, or Histoplasmosis to a lesser degree. He feels that it's likely not cancer, but we won't know until a follow up CT. PET showed no additional SUV uptake in the nodule but, of course, it might not being that small, depending upon the type of cancer.
Do you really think a wedge resection is called for? That's scary stuff if we're not sure what it is. How does the fact taht the node is benign change the treatment of the nodule?
Thanks. I appreciate your input.
Steph - 24 May 2007 08:09 GMT >>>I forgot to add the Mediastinoscopy and cultures showed that the lymph >>>node was a "Caseating Granuloma". [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > we're not sure what it is. How does the fact taht the node is benign > change the treatment of the nodule? It makes it worthwhile.
> Thanks. I appreciate your input. Steph - 24 May 2007 03:07 GMT >>> I ask again- Please provide us (potential cancer patients) with any >>> information that might be helpful given the information yoyu have thus [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So, discovering 3mm and 4mm pulmonary nodules isn't a good reason for > follow-up CT? What IS the proper follow-up (if any) in your opinion? Almost every middle aged person will have 1 or 2 such nodules. Do you know how much radiation you get from a CT scan? If multiple nodules are cancerous, there is no curative treatment anyway. If a single nodule is, there may be.
> What about my 14mm spiculated nodule that was accidentally found on chest > CT when I was having a gallbladder attacklast month? (I had both abdomen [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Thank you for providing info. I appreciate all the info I can get. Spiculated nodules are often malignant. Nodes over 1cm are often malignant. If the spiculated nodule is 15mm in 7 weeks, what will you do? If it's 13mm, what will you do?
If there is a realistic suspicion of malignancy, it should be taken out. If there isn't, it should be ignored
matt weber - 24 May 2007 20:52 GMT >>> I ask again- Please provide us (potential cancer patients) with any >>> information that might be helpful given the information yoyu have thus [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >So, discovering 3mm and 4mm pulmonary nodules isn't a good reason for >follow-up CT? What IS the proper follow-up (if any) in your opinion? How long since there were discovered? The only way you are going to get useful information out of a 3-4mm pulmonary nodule is to biopsy it. PET Scans are only indicated for 10-30mm nodules. At the moment they nodules are not large enough to have the margins well imaged by CT. Smoothe margins tend to indicate benign, spiculated tends to be malignant.
Also does the patient have a history of Coccidiodomycosis, histoplasmosis, or toxoplasmosis? All 3 fungi have a reputation for causing pulmonary nodules.
>What about my 14mm spiculated nodule that was accidentally found on chest CT >when I was having a gallbladder attacklast month? (I had both abdomen and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Radiation? Nothing? Does the fact that I was a smoker for 27 years have a >bearing on if/how to follow up? How about my age? (42) I'm still confused. Spiculated lesions should always be followed up. If you cannot reach it via Bronchoscopy, it probably can be reached by CT guided Needle Biopsy, or a VAT surgery. A 14mm spiculated nodule in the lung in someone with a history of smoking has a really high probability of being 'bad'.... It also falls within the guidelines for a PET Scan. Because of the high probability of it being malignant, I'd be reluctant to have it biopsied.
I am not your physician, but I'd seriously consider having a 14mm spiculated lesion in a lung removed, and let the pathology decide what to do next.
(I have a 11-13mm smooth margined nodule in my left lung. I have a history of Coccidiodomycosis. It was PET scanned, and came back VERY cold. It has now been CT scanned 3 times. Once more, and if it hasn't changed, the advice is pretend it isn't there. It has probably been there for close to 20 years, but the original infection left a golf ball sized hole in the other lung. Best guess is nobody noticed the little guy (it isn't at all obvious) in the chest Xray because the hole was a truly striking feature in the old X-rays (which have unfortunately all been tossed)...
>Thank you for providing info. I appreciate all the info I can get. J - 26 May 2007 21:13 GMT > >So, discovering 3mm and 4mm pulmonary nodules isn't a good reason for > >follow-up CT? What IS the proper follow-up (if any) in your opinion? [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > spiculated lesion in a lung removed, and let the pathology decide what > to do next. Thanks Matt. Good luck to Steven J
turtletrot1 - 24 May 2007 13:19 GMT On May 22, 11:54 pm, "Steph" ", and the profligate stupidity of the US system at its worst."
What is your problem with the US? It is so unlike you to deal in generalizations. The use of PET/Ct scans vary by the practioner ordering them. The trend now is toward MRI to avoid the build up of exposure to radiation. I recently returned from Germany. My "nephew" has MS, and has had to have hip replacement - twice same hip. He told me, as did others at the table during this discussion that unless you have "private" insurance on top of the national socialized everyone is covered insurance,you get the short end of the stick when it comes to treatment and care. I also read the BBC news daily. Seems like NHS has its own problems. Especially when it comes to cancer care and treatment. If Canadian treatment of cancer is so superior, why is that not common knowledge? Why aren't people flocking to Canada for treatment?
Steph - 24 May 2007 15:42 GMT > On May 22, 11:54 pm, "Steph" > ", and the profligate stupidity of the US system at its worst." [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If Canadian treatment of cancer is so superior, why is that not common > knowledge? Why aren't people flocking to Canada for treatment? The point is that life expectancy, perinatal mortality, and survival stats for all the common cancers are better in Canada than the US, and with a system that costs about 60% of the US cost. And whatever the problems of the NHS or any other system, the US is the only country in the civilised world without universal taxpayer-based health care. I guess the rest of the world must be out of step.
Trust me, we see and treat many US citizens here in BC. We also have many Canadians who go for second opinions or procedures in the US. The advice and care they get there is sometimes excellent, but often appalling.
J - 24 May 2007 18:30 GMT > > On May 22, 11:54 pm, "Steph" > > ", and the profligate stupidity of the US system at its worst." [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Canadians who go for second opinions or procedures in the US. The advice and > care they get there is sometimes excellent, but often appalling. The surgery waits driving them to the US? Thoracic (BC) not online yet but Ontario is. Last on the list is lung, before that is thyroid and prostate and first on the list is breast IIRC http://www.cancercare.on.ca/qualityindex2007/access/surgeryWaitTimes/index.html
breast 2 weeks
# Wait times vary by LHIN, with 90th percentile waits being longer in South West and Champlain and shorter in North West and North East. Figure 2 # Wait times also vary type of cancer. The shortest waits are for breast cancers (median: 15 days, 90th percentile: 40 days); and the longest waits are for thyroid (not shown) and prostate cancers (median: 43 days, 90th percentile: 106 days) Figures 3-6 # Breast cancer and gastrointestinal cancers have shown the largest improvement over the time period, with 90th percentile waits decreasing from by 22 25%. For breast cancer, half of patients currently have surgery within 15 days. # Prostate and genitourinary cancer waits have remained relatively stable over the period. The apparent decrease in genitourinary cancer wait times is due to the separation of prostate data in April 2006. # While waits have decreased overall, lung cancer remains one of the most challenging areas, showing an increase in 90th percentile waits of 34% during the period. Lung is almost 60 days in summer...
Combine that will waits for tests.. no wonder cancercareontario (somewhere there on their web page) says cancer care is worse from West to East in Canada. J
turtletrot1 - 30 May 2007 14:45 GMT " The advice and care they get there is sometimes excellent, but often appalling."
Come, now, surely you don't have first hand knowledge of advice and care for all these people.
>From reading many of your posts, I gather you are not much for Chemo....and that radiation is the treatment you feel is usually most appropriate. I would stack Dana Farber, MDAnderson against any cancer treatment places in the world. People come from all over the world for their diagnosis and treatments. They are world famous. I have heard of McGill...but not on the same level.
We also do not have VAT! We do have States Rights. Yes, we are different....but I would not say one is really better than the other.
Steph - 30 May 2007 16:05 GMT > " The advice and care they get there is sometimes excellent, but > often appalling." > > Come, now, surely you don't have first hand knowledge of advice and > care for all these people. No, I have much first hand knowledge
>>From reading many of your posts, I gather you are not much for > Chemo....and that radiation is the treatment you feel is usually most > appropriate. Nonsense. If I had a germ cell tumour or a lymphoma, I'd be first in the queue for my chemo. It's the data which is "not much for chemo" in the majority of common cancers.
> I would stack Dana Farber, MDAnderson against any cancer treatment > places in the world. You have first hand experience of cancer care in other places in the world?
> People come from all over the world for their > diagnosis and treatments. They are world famous. I have heard of > McGill...but not on the same level.
> We also do not have VAT! > We do have States Rights. > Yes, we are different....but I would not say one is really better than > the other. Uncle Sally - 23 May 2007 13:27 GMT Steven Vaughan wrote yet again in response to yet another of Steph's cryptic non-responses :
"Please enlighten me on what was not sensible. Please be specific. If there is something I need to know, I would appreciate it if you would tell me."
Steve,
I think you are wasting your time trying to get a response from Steph. He's a real medical doctor, a real oncologist, and, as you can imagine, it's rather strange to have such a person choosing to hang out here, of all places.
And think about what type of doctor a "real oncologist" would be who would deliver specific medical advice without having examined you, seen your files, seen your clinical work-ups and stats. imho probably a very poor one at best, at worst someone on the border of malpractice.
But he does respond to some people here with very thoughtful posts once in a while. For that I am grateful, and I accept that he appears to be enjoying blowing-off other people at other times. Think of Doctors as being people, flawed, like you and me (?), but people who have a lot of other people believing they have "god-like" powers : it's enough to go to into anyone's brain and mutate.
Unfortunately we can and do "punch each others' buttons" here as people collide, seeking and wanting to give help, who may have very different life-experiences. The threshold of reactivity to perceived insult and slights can be "inflamed" in such circumstances as a group of people, many of whom are in the middle of traumatic experiences medically, financially, and socially, interact.
Fortunately we can move beyond that with a little help from our friends and our friends-to-be.
I think you have knocked on the "rock of Steph" enough times to now know it's not a door for you.
take care, Uncle Sally
Steven Vaughan - 23 May 2007 22:26 GMT > I think you have knocked on the "rock of Steph" enough times to now know > it's not a door for you. > > take care, Uncle Sally Indeed. I wish he would give some ideas on what is the proper follow-up, rather than telling me what isn't. Alas.
Thx for the input.
Steph - 24 May 2007 03:01 GMT >> I think you have knocked on the "rock of Steph" enough times to now know >> it's not a door for you. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thx for the input. Steven, I wish you well. Many of the people who post here are not in the US, and the profligate wastage of CT scan and PET scan resources which is common to the American system is not a part of other public health care systems (even ones with better outcomes than the US, like the Canadian system)
What you haven't told us: Why on earth did you have the CT scan in the first place?
Steven Vaughan - 24 May 2007 05:41 GMT >> Indeed. I wish he would give some ideas on what is the proper follow-up, >> rather than telling me what isn't. Alas. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What you haven't told us: > Why on earth did you have the CT scan in the first place? I had yet another gall bladder attack April 2nd. I've been having them for 9 years, with increasing frequency. I've been to the ER (once several years ago, EKG ran, sent home with "you have gas") and explained it to the doc ("You probably have GERD)
I finally went in to my doctor's office at 9 am after 4 hours of lower chest/upper abdominal pain and said "I will not accept pain medication, since I don't want you to think that's why I'm here. I want you to find what this is so we might fix it".
They did blood work for liver function (they have previously done blood work for lots of stuff on me- all healthy except for cholesterol is a bit high) and sent me to hospital for Stat CT, chest & abdomen, both with and without contrast. The doctor got the results less than an hour later, and said "you have a gall bladder full of stones. We also found a small pulmonary nodule." I asked what it was. He said "probably just a granuloma, but we should get you in for a PET scan to be sure".
The PET scan report is as follows-
History: 14mm spiculated mass, right upper lung. Tissue characterization required.
Comparison: CT scan of the thorax, 4/2/07
Procedure: (combination PET/CT)
Findings: Head & Neck: there is some mild focal increased concentration of radiopharmaceutical that appears to be confined to the left anterior strap muscles with an SUV of less than 3.
Thorax: There is no significant increased concentration of radiopharmaceutical corresponding to a spiculated mass near the right subclavian vein in the right lung apex. The mass actually appears slightly smaller on this exam than on the prior CT scan from 4/2/07. There is a mild concentration od radiopharmaceutical within a 1.8 cm lymph node in the rigth paratracheal region which has an SUV of 3. This will require a follow-up CT scan in approximately six months as this may be a reactive lymph node containing a very minimal amount of calcification due to histoplasmosis. No other lung findings are apparent on PET/CT imaging.
Abdomen, Pelvis, Upper Thighs: (normal- text deleted)
Impression: Mild focal increased concentration of radiopharmaceutical within a right paratracheal lymph node which measures 1.8 cm in greatest diameter on this exam. No significant increased concentration of radiopharmaceutical corresponding to a spiculated mass in the right lung apex. This actually appears smaller on this exam than on the prior CT examination from xxxxxxxx hospital. I would still get a follow-up CT scan with contrast enhancement for the 1.8 cm right paratraceal lymph node in 6 months.
(Dr X, MD)- The doctor who reads the PET scans- not my Doctor.
My Summary:
Family history: 8 of 12 close family members either have/have had digestive issues. 4 have had gall bladder removal. Father- died age 52 heart disease. (smoker) Mother- 20+ yr survivor breast cancer- double mastectomy. (nonsmoker) M Gmother- diabetic, died heart disease. aged 84 (20 pack/yr -30 yrs previous) P Gmother- breast cancer survivor 12+ yrs, died heart attack aged 79 (nonsmoker) M Gfather- died stroke aged 82. (40+ pack/yr smoker -20 yrs previous) P Gfather- died aged 64 heart attack or heart aneurism? (no autopsy) Paramedics couldnt revive. No lung cancers in 3 generations, or cousins out to 2nd cousins. 30+ people. Many smokers.
Me: 42 year old white male. Normal weight. No abnormal medical history, except for high triglycerdies/cholesterol test fall '06. Diet modified somewhat. (more fiber, less carbs, less fats) Taking 145mg/daily Tricor. Cholesterol/triglycerdies now within normal limits. I have never had any symptoms- no coughing, etc. Although I do not do manual labor at work these days, I have always been physically active and reasonably fit.
I had a laparascopic gall bladder removal on 4/12/07. Discharged same day. Doing great. No more attacks. Digestion perfect.
I started taking Chantix for smoking cessation on 4/4/07. I smoked my last cigarette on 4/11/07. Previously smoked 1+ packs/day 27 yrs. - About 30 pack/years. Small amt. of maryjane in college years. None in 15+ yrs.
Pulmonary function tests show that I have 115% lung function. Doctors have always reported that my "lungs sound great", so I wasn't entirely surprised by this.
Upon the advice of my Pulmonologist, who concurred with the 2nd opinion by my Cardio-thoracic surgeon, (chosen by referral and reputation) we decided that Mediastinoscopy for the lymph node, and Bronchoscopy for the nodule were the logical next steps. Both procedures were performed at the same time on 4/23/07. The surgeon immediately informed us that the lymph node was not cancer. He did a "wash culture" of the area near the nodule, as it was not accessible, as suspected. The cell cultures on both the node and nodules would take more time.
The cultures have both showed no infectious organism present. No bacterial or viral infection. No cancer cells present. Fungal cultures are not back yet.
Pulmonologist and Surgeon both agree: Spiculated nodule most likely not cancerous, but looks like scar tissue. Surgery only necessary if growth is detected. Sarcoidosis strongly suspected. Histoplasmosis possible (but less likely) due to previous occupational (working in attics for several years) and household (Starlings building nests in our BBQ grill) exposures to histoplasmosis toxins.
Whaddya think?
Steph - 24 May 2007 08:10 GMT >>> Indeed. I wish he would give some ideas on what is the proper follow-up, >>> rather than telling me what isn't. Alas. [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > > Whaddya think? I think your advice sounds reasonable. But you are caught in the terrible diagnostic spiral which is American medicine.
Steven Vaughan - 24 May 2007 16:59 GMT >> Whaddya think? > > I think your advice sounds reasonable. But you are caught in the terrible > diagnostic spiral which is American medicine. I think I see exactly where you're coming from. Thanks for your help.
J - 24 May 2007 12:21 GMT > >> Indeed. I wish he would give some ideas on what is the proper follow-up, > >> rather than telling me what isn't. Alas. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Whaddya think? Have your gallbladder taken out. J
Steven Vaughan - 24 May 2007 16:51 GMT >> >> Indeed. I wish he would give some ideas on what is the proper >> >> follow-up, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Have your gallbladder taken out. > J Please read the entire post, I have had it out.
J - 24 May 2007 18:24 GMT > "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Please read the entire post, I have had it out. Sorry, I missed it. It was further down. I wondered why the heck you'd wait 8 years. 18 months of attacks was enough for me. My point was your presenting symptoms would have pointed me to gall bladder problems (not screening for lung) although CT or Xray does not sound unreasonable to me, if you smoked 27 years and hadn't had a recent one.
The rest (of your tests, appointments), well, I've had things show up on X-ray or CT. The radiologist gives his/her impression (x-rays are compared to the previous ones) and any questions, I might have, are vetted by the GP. Usually that's it. Unless something like coughing up blood ensues. J
Steven Vaughan - 24 May 2007 20:48 GMT >> > Have your gallbladder taken out. >> > J [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that's it. Unless something like coughing up blood ensues. > J The reason for the chest CT was that my pain felt like it was a straight line from each side (sort of toward my back) running behind my sternum. I always thought it was heart trouble, though I was puzzled why I always had gas with it. I'm not sure why the pain was that high up, since now I know what was wrong and that it was lower, but the pain was much higher than one would expect. So, they ordered both. Oh, and I've never had a chest Xray or any radiology whatsoever until now. First chest or abdominal picture ever. I was never very good about Dr. checkups until recently. I probably went 15+ years without one.
I didn't wait 8 yrs. The first gallbladder attack in '99, called the dr, he said i prob. had gas. Second attack in 2000, went to ER, EKG ran, they said I had gas. So, for years, I've been thinking I'm a big wimp who has gas, or that they missed a heart problem. This time, I insisted upon answers and quick action, and I got them.
J - 30 May 2007 00:56 GMT > Many of the people who post here are not in the US, and the profligate > wastage of CT scan and PET scan resources which is common to the American > system is not a part of other public health care systems (even ones with > better outcomes than the US, like the Canadian system) Hi Steph, Just for the record my impression is that, most of the time, the majority of posters here are Americans. So did you mean to write "Many of the people who post here are in the US"? J - wondering
Steph - 30 May 2007 16:07 GMT >> Many of the people who post here are not in the US, and the profligate >> wastage of CT scan and PET scan resources which is common to the American [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So did you mean to write "Many of the people who post here are in the US"? > J - wondering No, I meant what I wrote
Giuditta - 21 May 2007 12:22 GMT >> The following is an email my friend sent me, more about her husband's >> condition...keep in mind that he hasn't had a biopsy just the CT scan. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > cancer, and if he does, it's likely very early and very treatable. He > needs to stop smoking now. That's a big relief! He is starting medication to quit smoking, and I am sure that he will. Thank you so much for the info.
Have a great day! Judy
J - 23 May 2007 17:31 GMT > The following is an email my friend sent me, more about her husband's > condition...keep in mind that he hasn't had a biopsy just the CT scan. Isn't [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > growth at all, they will do what they need to do then. Hopefully by then, he > will be off the cigarettes. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/535601 Solitary Pulmonary Nodule: Assessment of a Solitary Pulmonary Nodule From ACS Surgery Online Posted 06/07/2006 Shamus R. Carr, MD; Taine T. V. Pechet, MD, FACS The solitary pulmonary nodule (SPN) is a common finding that is observed in more than 150,000 persons each year in the United States The differential diagnosis of an SPN is broad and includes vascular diseases, infections, inflammatory conditions, congenital abnormalities, benign tumors, and malignancies [see Table 1 -- omitted].
Although most SPNs are benign, as many as one third represent primary malignancies, and nearly one quarter may be solitary metastases.1,5,6 Various approaches have been developed to aid in the characterization and identification of SPNs. Certain clinical characteristicssuch as greater age, history of tobacco use, and previous history of cancerhave been shown to increase the likelihood that the SPN is malignant.7 Some authors have attempted to use Bayes's theorem, logistic regression models, or neural network analysis to predict the likelihood of malignancy.79 Such methods are highly sensitive and specific, but they are cumbersome and of limited practical use in actual clinical evaluation of a patient with an SPN.
Appropriate evaluation involves careful assessment of the patient's history and risk factors for malignancy in conjunction with the results of radiographic studies [see Investigative Studies -- omitted, below] to develop an individualized care plan.
Chest Radiography. Whereas the prevalence of lung cancer is low in comparison to that of breast or prostate cancer, the mortality for lung cancer exceeds that for breast, prostate, and colon cancer combined. As noted [seeClinical Evaluation -- omitted, above], the overall 5-year survival rate for lung cancer patients is dismal, in part because lung cancer is typically identified at a more advanced stage than other cancers are. Several trials performed before the advent of CT scanning attempted to employ chest radiography for early screening of lung cancer, but they were unable to demonstrate that such screening yielded any better survival than no screening at all.1618 One explanation for these disappointing results may be that fewer than 10% of lung cancers are stage I at presentation.16
Although chest radiography is ineffective as a screening tool for early-stage lung cancer, it remains a valuable investigative tool in the evaluation of SPNs. If an SPN's appearance on chest x-rays has not changed for more than 2 years, the SPN will be benign in more than 90% of cases. In such cases, only yearly follow-up is typically required; additional diagnostic tests are usually unnecessary.19,20 Therefore, an effort should always be made to obtain old chest radiographs if they are known to exist.
Computed Tomography. The advent of CT scanning has led to an increase in the number of SPNs detected21but of course, it has also led to an increase in the number of SPNs found that prove to be benign. Advocates of CT scanning for assessment of SPNs base their argument on two central points. First, as many as 83% of CT-detected stage I malignancies are not visible on chest x-ray.22 Second, non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC) is the malignancy most commonly identified, and the survival rate for stage I NSCLC is relatively high. In patients whose SPN proves to be NSCLC, the 5-year survival rate is 67% for stage IA disease. This figure falls rapidly as the disease stage rises: the 5-year survival rate is 55% for stage IIA NSCLC and only 10% for stage IIIA NSCLC with mediastinal nodal metastasis.23
Numerous studies have evaluated the use of screening CT both in the general population and in at-risk groups consisting of older patients with a smoking history.22,24,25 The greatest drawback to screening CT is the high false positive rate: nodules are identified on 23% to 66% of all CT scans, depending on the thickness of the slices,22,26 and nearly 98% of these nodules are eventually determined to be benign. Sequential CT scanning is often required to determine whether an SPN is benign or malignant. In 10% to 15% of patients, however, this determination cannot be made even when two CT scans are compared. Such patients may be assessed with other imaging modalities (e.g., positron emission tomography [PET]) or may be referred for transthoracic needle biopsy (TTNB) or other invasive diagnostic tests.
There is currently some controversy regarding the optimal timing of follow-up CT scanning after initial identification of an SPN. In the literature, the recommended interval between initial CT scanning and repeat CT scanning has ranged from 1 month to 1 year.22,25,26 These varying recommendations are based on what is considered the doubling time for an SPN. In a study from 2000 that included 13 patients with a known diagnosis and lesions less than 10 mm in diameter at initial evaluation, volumetric growth rates were measured to establish the doubling times of the nodules.10 The doubling times ranged from 51 days to more than 1 year. For malignant lesions, the average doubling time was less than 177 days, whereas for benign lesions, it was more than 396 days.
In addition to delineating the size and contours of an SPN, CT scans provide information on its internal characteristics. Certain lesion characteristics noted on CT, though not absolutely definitive, point more toward a benign condition, whereas others point more toward malignancy. For example, although cavitation may occur in either benign or malignant lesions, SPNs with walls thicker than 16 mm are much more likely to be malignant, whereas those with walls thinner than 4 mm are much more likely to be benign.27 As another example, the presence of intranodular fat is a reliable indicator of a hamartoma (a benign lesion) and is seen in as many as 50% of hamartomas.28 In addition, calcification is most commonly associated with hamartomas and other benign nodules. Unfortunately, between one third and two thirds of benign lesions visualized are not calcified, and as many as 6% of malignant lesions are calcified.2931 Finally, increased enhancement (measured in Hounsfield units [HU]) after injection with intravenous contrast is strongly suggestive of malignancy. Lesions that enhance by less than 15 HU are most likely benign (positive predictive value, 99%), whereas lesions that enhance by more than 20 HU are typically malignant (sensitivity, 98%; specificity, 73%).32 Lesions that enhance by 15 to 20 HU should be considered indeterminate.
Because most SPNs are benign and because the risk of misdiagnosing a malignant lesion is so great, it is important to make use of all of the data obtained from CT scanning in the effort to make cost-effective, logical decisions regarding further evaluation or treatment. Careful evaluation of the size, contours, and internal characteristics of an SPN on successive CT scansin conjunction with thoughtful consideration of the patient's age, smoking history, and occupational exposureprovides the framework for appropriate treatment. Because the doubling time is considerably shorter for malignant lesions than for benign lesions, a repeat CT scan should be performed 3 months after the initial study. If the lesion is visibly larger on the repeat scan, it is probably malignant, and further diagnostic evaluation should be carried out with an eye toward resection. If, however, the lesion is still present and has not grown, a follow-up CT scan between 3 months and 12 months is warranted; the precise timing remains controversial and should be determined on the basis of individual patient and SPN characteristics. New volumetric modeling methods have been developed that may be capable of detecting conformational changes over much shorter intervals, but at present, they are not frequently used.33
Positron Emission Tomography. PET is an imaging modality that employs radiolabeled isotopes of fluorine, carbon, or oxygen; the most commonly used isotope is 18F-fluorodeoxyglucose (FDG). The rationale for FDG-PET scanning in the evaluation of SPNs is based on the higher metabolic rate of most malignancies and the preferential trapping of FDG in malignant cells.34 However, increased FDG activity can also occur in benign SPNs,35,36 especially those arising from active granulomatous diseases37,38 or inflammatory processes.39 These benign diseases can produce false positive PET scans and thereby reduce the sensitivity of the test.
Efforts have been made to increase the sensitivity and specificity of PET scanning in the diagnosis of SPNs. One such effort involves the use of the standardized uptake value (SUV), which is a numerical indication of the activity concentration in a lesion, normalized for the injected dose.45 In many studies, an SPN is considered malignant when its SUV is higher than 2.5. Because of the method used to calculate the SUV, however, small tumors (< 1.0 cm) may have an SUV lower than 2.5 and still be malignant. The reason is that their small volume causes their true activity concentration to be underestimated, with the result that their SUV drops below the threshold value for malignancy. In one prospective study of patients with SPNs, the overall sensitivity of FDG-PET scanning was 79%, and the overall specificity was 65%.46 When the SPN was smaller than 1.0 cm, however, all of the scans were negative, even though 40% of the nodules were malignant.
In cases where the SPN is larger than 1.0 cm and no previous radiographs or CT scans are available for comparison, PET scanning can provide information that may facilitate the decision whether to follow the lesion closely or to proceed with biopsy. PET scanning has a definite place in the evaluation of SPNs, but it is not appropriate for every patient. A study that examined the cost-effectiveness of PET in the evaluation of SPNs concluded that it was cost-effective for patients who had an intermediate pretest probability of a malignant SPN and who were at high risk for surgical complications.47 In all other groups, PET was not cost-effective, and CT led to similar outcomes (in terms of quality-adjusted life years) and to lower costs.
Giuditta - 24 May 2007 03:49 GMT >> The following is an email my friend sent me, more about her husband's >> condition...keep in mind that he hasn't had a biopsy just the CT scan. [quoted text clipped - 259 lines] > outcomes > (in terms of quality-adjusted life years) and to lower costs. I ask the time and get directions on building a clock. Thanks for your time, but I hardly understood a thing you wrote. A simple explanation would do ... in English.
Judy
J - 24 May 2007 12:04 GMT > "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Judy I'll have to find a dumbed down version, some day, just for you.. Your friend taught you to copy and paste. Ask her to teach you how to <snip>, please J
Giuditta - 24 May 2007 22:25 GMT >> "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > please > J I actually knew how to copy and paste ... I think that was someone else who was taught that by a friend unless I mentioned when I was taught that years back, but you are right, J, I do need a dumbed-down version, and I'm not being catty or anything. You guys are too smart for me.
Have a great day, Judy
J - 25 May 2007 11:08 GMT > "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Have a great day, > Judy I thought it might be helpful for your friend, Judy. The excerpt is in my other reply (and can be found in the thread at talkaboutsupport if you want to send it to her. J
Giuditta - 26 May 2007 13:56 GMT >> "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > talkaboutsupport if you want to send it to her. > J I don't subscribe to that newsgroup so wouldn't even know where to look.
J
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