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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / April 2006

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Steph(or anyone)-- is this that good???

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MZB - 19 Apr 2006 02:14 GMT
Hi folks:

Just curious-- big headline in our local paper says our hospital (fairly
major one):

now has new advanced cancer treatment technology found at only 50 medical
centers in the country.
   This cancer-targeting technology scans tumors as they are being treated
to focus more radiation directly on the tumor and less on surrounding
healthy tissue. Tougher on tumors and easier on patients, image guided
radiation therapy (IGRT) is available at about 50 of the nation's 2,500
radiation oncology centers in the U.S., including Memorial Sloan-Kettering,
M.D. Anderson and the Mayo Clinic.
   "We are at the forefront of cancer treatment technology, and with this
system, we have the newest and most advanced treatment method available,

Sounds impressive. Does anyone else know about this IGRT therapy and is it
as good as it sounds???

Mel
Steph - 19 Apr 2006 08:04 GMT
> Hi folks:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Mel

Is it interesting and satisfying for the oncologists and physicists? Yes.
Is it any better that "standard" radiotherapy? Nobody knows.
Is it a good earner? Absolutely
Emily - 19 Apr 2006 13:07 GMT
steph@vancouvers.island said...
> > Sounds impressive. Does anyone else know about this IGRT therapy and is it
> > as good as it sounds???
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Is it any better that "standard" radiotherapy? Nobody knows.
> Is it a good earner? Absolutely

Coo, it's a good job arSteph isn't a cynic, isn't it ;-)

Signature

Em, chuckling

46erjoe - 21 Apr 2006 01:03 GMT
Radiation treatment (of any kind) is not appropriate to every kind of
cancer.

>Hi folks:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Mel
Steph - 21 Apr 2006 03:10 GMT
> Radiation treatment (of any kind) is not appropriate to every kind of
> cancer.

Who said it was?
Having said that, for every 100 cancers cured, radiation cures about
45...........
And surgery about 52
alex - 21 Apr 2006 03:16 GMT
>> Radiation treatment (of any kind) is not appropriate to every kind of
>> cancer.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 45...........
> And surgery about 52
45+52 =97, so only 3% of cancers are cured by chemo? For some cancers it is
combination of surgery and chemo, surgery and radation, and sometimes all
three.
Steph - 21 Apr 2006 05:20 GMT
>>> Radiation treatment (of any kind) is not appropriate to every kind of
>>> cancer.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> is combination of surgery and chemo, surgery and radation, and sometimes
> all three.

The contribution of chemotherapy to 5 year survival (and for most cancers, 5
year survival is an excellent surrogate for cure) for the commonest 22 adult
cancers (98% of all adult cancers) is 2-3%, whether it is considered alone
or in combination. The data is all there.

Now it is true that germ cell testicular cancers and some lymphomas are
certainly curable by chemotherapy, but overall chemo only cures 2-3% of all
cancers.
Steph - 21 Apr 2006 05:28 GMT
> The contribution of chemotherapy to 5 year survival (and for most cancers,
> 5 year survival is an excellent surrogate for cure) for the commonest 22
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> certainly curable by chemotherapy, but overall chemo only cures 2-3% of
> all cancers.

Clin Oncol (R Coll Radiol). 2004 Dec;16(8):549-60
46erjoe - 22 Apr 2006 20:09 GMT
I asked my onc if I could get radiation treatment or even surgery. He
said it was a waste of time or could make matters worse. I have Stage
IV CRC with a 10 cm met in my liver and smaller mets in my lungs.

I know he's the doc, but I still wonder why he's staying exclusively
with chemo.

>>>> Radiation treatment (of any kind) is not appropriate to every kind of
>>>> cancer.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>certainly curable by chemotherapy, but overall chemo only cures 2-3% of all
>cancers.
Steph - 22 Apr 2006 23:49 GMT
>I asked my onc if I could get radiation treatment or even surgery. He
> said it was a waste of time or could make matters worse. I have Stage
> IV CRC with a 10 cm met in my liver and smaller mets in my lungs.
>
> I know he's the doc, but I still wonder why he's staying exclusively
> with chemo.

Radiation and surgery don't have much to offer met CRC except in very
specific circumstances
J - 23 Apr 2006 01:33 GMT
> "46erjoe" <somebody@spamless.net> wrote in message
> >I asked my onc if I could get radiation treatment or even surgery. He
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Radiation and surgery don't have much to offer met CRC except in very
> specific circumstances

His met lungs don't sound life threatening at the moment.
Would he not (have the possibility of) extend his life by removing the
liver tumour if:
a) he was fit enough for surgery
b) there were no complications
c) and the rest of his liver was healthy (ie no cirrhosis)?
J
Steph - 23 Apr 2006 01:35 GMT
>> "46erjoe" <somebody@spamless.net> wrote in message
>> >I asked my onc if I could get radiation treatment or even surgery. He
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> c) and the rest of his liver was healthy (ie no cirrhosis)?
> J

No.
If the met were painful (they often are at that size) some simple RT would
be useful
J - 23 Apr 2006 01:36 GMT
> I asked my onc if I could get radiation treatment or even surgery. He
> said it was a waste of time or could make matters worse. I have Stage
> IV CRC with a 10 cm met in my liver and smaller mets in my lungs.

Hi Joe,
A compilation...of two webistes
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/1006.cfm
Metastatic liver cancer is most often treated by surgery. However, if a patient's
cancer has spread to the liver, it may also have spread to other areas of the
body. One notable exception to this is metastatic colorectal cancer. In this
disease, the liver is often the first site of spread. Surgery to remove the
tumors is most effective for this type of cancer. Memorial Sloan-Kettering is a
leader in the treatment of colorectal cancers that have spread to the liver.
Patients with this type of metastatic liver cancer may be treated with a
combination of surgery and chemotherapy.

The liver has the capacity to regenerate. Up to 80 percent of the organ can be
surgically removed and within several weeks, the liver will have entirely
regenerated itself. If one lobe -- along with the blood vessels on that side --
is surgically removed, the other lobe will compensate for the loss.

Operating on the liver can be difficult for several reasons. Many of the major
blood vessels to and from the heart pass behind or through the liver, so in
essence, the liver is "attached" to the heart. Also, the anatomy of the liver is
not always obvious from the surface. The organ is large, dense, and delicate, and
covered in part by the rib cage. It bleeds profusely when injured and its tissue
tears easily. An experienced surgeon can offer a patient the best chance for a
good outcome. Our surgeons perform the highest number of liver resections of any
cancer center in the country -- 200 to 300 per year.

New technologies are allowing surgeons to remove increasingly smaller portions of
the liver. This results in less loss of blood and a quicker and less complicated
recovery. Recent improvements in anesthesia have also led to less blood loss
during surgery. Our surgeons are also pioneering laparoscopic surgical methods.
In this type of surgery, a small incision is made and a tube with a small camera
on its end is passed through the abdominal wall. This technique can be used in
selected cases to remove part of the liver (partial hepatectomy). Since the
procedure is less invasive than traditional surgery, recovery is quicker.

Thanks in part to these surgical techniques and improvements most of our liver
surgery patients stay in the hospital less than 10 days, and the majority do not
require blood transfusions.

When the liver is burdened with another disease aside from the cancer, surgery is
complicated and sometimes impossible. A disease such as cirrhosis dramatically
weakens the liver and often leaves it permanently damaged, with limited
regenerative capacity. A patient with a liver hampered by both cirrhosis and a
tumor is more likely to be treated with a method other than surgery.

http://www.nccs.com.sg/epub/CU/vol_04/p2.htm
Up to half the patients with colorectal cancer develop metastases, and the
commonest site for metastases is the liver. The peculiarity of the portal venous
system means that not infrequently the liver is the first and only site of stage
IV disease. Although the understanding from most cancers is that stage IV disease
carries a poor prognosis and management is thus geared towards palliation, there
is increasing evidence that the picture is quite different for stage IV
colorectal cancer when metastases are found only in the liver.

At present, liver resection is considered the gold standard of treatment for
metastases from colorectal cancer that are confined to the liver. Surgery offers
the best results, with 5-year and 10-year survival rates of up to 45% and 21%,
respectively. By comparison, 5-y survival is less than 5% and median survival
about 6 to 9 months if surgery is not possible.

Work-up for metastases
The aim of follow-up in colorectal cancer patients is thus to detect recurrences
early, when these are still potentially confined to the liver. The role of tests
for carcinogenic embryonic antigen (CEA) and ultrasonography in follow-up is well
established. When a lesion is suspected, a triphasic CT scan is required for
assessment of operability and planning of the operation. In addition, there
should be extensive work-up to exclude extrahepatic disease. Such investigation
includes CT or PET-CT of the thorax, brain, and bone.

Assessment for surgery
The criteria for liver resection used to be three or fewer lesions, with the
largest smaller than 3 cm and confined to one lobe of the liver. Today,
irrespective of size, number, and extent of lesions, surgical resection may be
offered to patients (1) with adequate hepatic reserve, (2) with no extrahepatic
metastases, and (3) in whom a 1 cm tumour-free margin is achievable.

Several factors are associated with a better survival rate after liver resection
for colorectal metastases and these are taken into consideration in the decisions
about surgery. These factors include (1) colorectal primary at N0-N1 stage, (2)
largest metastasis less than 7 cm in diameter, (3) postoperative normalising of
serum CEA level post-operatively (in patients whose preoperative CEA were
elevated >4 ng/dl) (4) wedge instead of lobar resection. Negative prognostic
factors include (1) signs and symptoms of extra-hepatic metastases, (2)
substantially raised CEA level, (3) more than 6 lymph nodes involved in the
primary lesion, (4) a satellite pattern of metastases in the liver, (5) bilobar
hepatic disease, (6) likelihood of a positive resection margin, (7) extrahepatic
nodal involvement, and (8) poorly differentiated primary tumour.

Results of surgery
Liver resection is fairly safe and postoperative mortality rates of less than 2%
are reported in well-established hepatobiliary units. In addition, morbidity
rates are generally less than 10% and usually relate to minor problems, such as
wound infection.
46erjoe - 25 Apr 2006 01:20 GMT
Thanks J. Sounds like it's too late for me. Do I have the right to be
angry,  because it sounds like I would have been eligible for surgery
some time ago before mets appeared in my lungs, when my liver tumor
was small, no other mets were indicated and CEA levels were quite low?

Steph ... I'd appreciate your input.

Should I show this report to my onc or will that only alienate him
from my case?

Wish I'd gone with Sloan Kettering first instead of U Penn and
Fox-Chase.

-joe

>> I asked my onc if I could get radiation treatment or even surgery. He
>> said it was a waste of time or could make matters worse. I have Stage
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>rates are generally less than 10% and usually relate to minor problems, such as
>wound infection.
Steph - 25 Apr 2006 07:02 GMT
> Thanks J. Sounds like it's too late for me. Do I have the right to be
> angry,  because it sounds like I would have been eligible for surgery
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> -joe

Some patients with liver mets only as a sign of recurrence are eligible for
liver resection as potentially curative treatment. Most of them die of
disease anyway.
The lung mets probably would have developed despite liver resection.
Sure, discuss it with your onc, I doubt it will alienate him, but agonising
about what might have been is unlikely to be of benefit.
46erjoe - 26 Apr 2006 03:02 GMT
Thank you for all you do here, Steph.
--Joe

>> Thanks J. Sounds like it's too late for me. Do I have the right to be
>> angry,  because it sounds like I would have been eligible for surgery
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Sure, discuss it with your onc, I doubt it will alienate him, but agonising
>about what might have been is unlikely to be of benefit.
J - 26 Apr 2006 20:35 GMT
> Thanks J. Sounds like it's too late for me. Do I have the right to be
> angry,  because it sounds like I would have been eligible for surgery
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Wish I'd gone with Sloan Kettering first instead of U Penn and
> Fox-Chase.

Hello joe,
Unfortunately, there were probably cancer cells loose in your blood stream (and in the
lungs) that weren't visible on scans.

How's it going with the Erbitux?  Any shrinkage?
As Steph mentioned if your liver tumor gets painful, you may wish to consult a
radiation oncologist.
(I don't know if you'd have to stop the Erbitux though, for a few weeks or more).

Here's what I'm thinking; shrinking it up some with RT, might make you need less
strong pain killers towards the end (and thereby have better quality of life longer
and/or make the pain more controllable).
You'd have to discuss the risks vs benefits...
J
46erjoe - 27 Apr 2006 02:59 GMT
Still another month before my next CT Scan. Last meeting with my onc I
asked him to begin giving me, to the best of his ability - and I know
each case is different - some timeline for me. I continue to keep up
hope because I do believe that there are exceptions to every rule. But
I do want to know, as much as is possible, what the future holds for
me. In particular I'm curious as to when pain begins. I've pushed and
pressed on my liver like crazy trying to make it hurt, but no pain ...
yet.  I watched my brother die of stomach cancer and he was in agony
for the few weeks before his death. The pain meds were not helpful
enough, so his wife asked that they give him meds not so much to stop
the pain as to put him into a state of unconsciousness. That's the way
he went into eternity...asleep. I hope I am awake all the way to the
last moment, but obviously without any pain. I do wonder what a
typical liver met final days death is like.

>> Thanks J. Sounds like it's too late for me. Do I have the right to be
>> angry,  because it sounds like I would have been eligible for surgery
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>You'd have to discuss the risks vs benefits...
>J
J - 27 Apr 2006 12:53 GMT
> Still another month before my next CT Scan. Last meeting with my onc I
> asked him to begin giving me, to the best of his ability - and I know
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> last moment, but obviously without any pain. I do wonder what a
> typical liver met final days death is like.

Jennifer was diagnosed late with multiple tumors in her liver.
from the archives..."I feel increasingly crappy every day:  the every-six-hour Darvocet has

turned into every-four-hours.  The pain under my right ribs keeps growing, and some of the
nausea is gone, but now I have difficulties breathing unless I'm reclining.  Maybe my liver
is pressing on my
diaphragm or lungs when I stand?"
Her first posts were about pain and soon after about fevers and nausea.
She died ~4 months from her first post.

Lowkey's liver tumor(s?) had shrunk with Erbitux. I don't recall him mentioning pain.
(however, I also don't recall if he was on pain meds or not - I think not a problem at that
time nor when he died, because he died of a brain hemorrhage).

This man never posted here - rectal spread to liver
Might be some to glean from  - he mentions fevers and other things.
These two might give you some glimpses
http://www.citylightsnews.com/ce/diary-1aug04.
http://www.citylightsnews.com/ce/diary-1sep04.htm

His last message was Sept 15th and he died in October 26
His diary starts here http://www.citylightsnews.com/ce/main.htm
Looks like he had surgery in 2000 and a reoccurence in March 2003
and passed away in October 2004
No point in going through that all, -just showing the dates - timeline, but he made many
mistakes - going non conventional..

Everyone's different but it looks like fevers are the starting sign of decline.

Other than those Joe, the only other person, I can think of to draw on is the male RN at
www.crossingthecreek.com
If you haven't ordered the one book, maybe you can afford to?
Then also email him your questions. He's been good, in the past with me.
I haven't emailed him for a long time.
I think there's a contact me and/or email addresses on the order page.
Make sure he knows you've ordered the book.
He might also know of a book that's been compiled about how various patients died.

I sure hope you'll be with us a long time, Joe.
Just wanting you to have tools /indications so you might "read" your own body and know
what's happening.
J
 
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