Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / February 2006
What next? (not OT)
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Chris Ness - 11 Feb 2006 03:04 GMT I guess by now everyone has heard my story enough. Add to that my MIL's stage 4 cervical cancer. Well, it don't end yet...
As I mentioned I moved my mother down from Pennsylvania to recuperate from her hospitalization for retaining water from congestive heart failure. On Jan 24th, her 85th birthday, I had to re-admit her she swelled up again and added 45 lbs of water since Christmas. They cut back her Cumadin and increased her Lasix and she lost a lot of it especially from the legs. On Sunday they did a sonogram and then did a pericentesis (?) and drained her lower abdomen directly. Tuesday I moved her to a nursing home for more PT (drill seargent - sorry old habits die hard)
Today I got a call from her doctor at the nursing home. He noticed a test result that the Hospital doctor had missed. Her CA125 result was 477.3. Shortly J will tell us that the breaking point for "good" is 35, and she will be right. The doctor was non-commital, as he probably should be. After all it could be another Coumadin artifact along with all the bleeding and bruising. (I really hate that stuff)
But presume the worst for a minute. Suppose that it is ovarian cancer. With her already having congestive heart failure and COPD, and considering her already failing strength. How agressive a treatment can she tolerate? I know that my treatments took a lot out of me. I know she can't take that much. I don't have any experience with palliative treatment.
And why do crises always happen on Friday afternoon when you can't contact anyone until Monday?
alex - 11 Feb 2006 04:45 GMT > But presume the worst for a minute. Suppose that it is ovarian cancer. > With [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And why do crises always happen on Friday afternoon when you can't contact > anyone until Monday An elevated CA 125 does not mean your mother has ovarian cancer, women's reproductive disorders can cause a false positive result. Do you know why the ran the test? Does your mother have a history of cancer? Unfortunately, you probably won't get all the answers on Monday either especially with the east coast storm. It is horrible when you only have half of the information since you imagination can run wild. The treatment for ovarian cancer is demanding and doesn't sound like your mother would be a great candidate due to her health. That being said, your questions can only be answered by an oncologist. The doctor at the nursing home seems to have evaluated your mother's situation and will have a better assessment next week. Nursing homes do have a weekly planning meeting where the patient/and or family is encouraged to participate. All teams are represented, physician, nursing, social workers, and rehab will all be present and discuss the initial evaluations and plan of care. As far as palliative care goes, you maybe jumping the gun, next week you'll have more of the answers. Would you take your mother home with you, return to her home or keep her in the nursing home if she needed palliative care? Each place the management would be a bit different. The nursing home is responsible in assisting you in determining what the next phase of care would be.
J - 11 Feb 2006 09:31 GMT > I guess by now everyone has heard my story enough. Add to that my MIL's > stage 4 cervical cancer. Well, it don't end yet... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > know that my treatments took a lot out of me. I know she can't take that > much. I don't have any experience with palliative treatment. Hello Chris. This is about CA125. http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/issues/v03n01/ca125.html
They mention various cancers and more benign conditions like pleuritis and pericarditis. So it's hard to know what's going on with your mother.
Really more information is needed. I'm so sorry your mother's got so many problems and your "worry burden" has just increased.. Take care of you, Chris. Get lots of rest on the weekend. Sounds like a busy time coming up for you. I hope someone cancer savvy can be there, with your mother, when they pull the results together. J
J - 11 Feb 2006 09:38 GMT > This is about CA125. http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/issues/v03n01/ca125.html More here: (some repeats the other, but they mention peritonitis) http://www.spendloveresearch.org/ResearchPages/systemca125.htm What is it? Carbohydrate Antigen 125 (CA 125) is produced primarily by ovarian cancer cells. Many studies have correlated elevated CA 125 levels with cancerous conditions. The levels of CA 125 often track the effectiveness of treatment and the possibility of recurrence (5,8). Elevated CA 125, >30 U/ml (4), is predominately associated with ovarian cancer (2,5) but has also been observed in cancers of the uterus (13), pancreas (11), liver (7), cervix (3), colon (9), breast (14), lung (12) and GI tract (14). Non-malignant conditions have also been associated with high CA 125 levels such as liver disease (10), fibriods (10), ovarian cysts (10), cirrhosis (10), endometriosis (1) and peritonitis (6)
(although I have to question this web page if they can't spell fibroids properly)
:p J
Chris Ness - 11 Feb 2006 17:54 GMT >> This is about CA125. >> http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/issues/v03n01/ca125.html [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > J This is what I was looking for. I suspect it is related to her Coumadin overdose like everything else seems to be. It seems to have caused a lot of problems. One would think she had Ebola. She bled even from inside her eyelids! The monograph the hospital gave me about Coumadin did not speak of how it is passed from the body. Since she didn't bruise up until she had been in the Hospital almost a week, I wondered if it was concentrating and not passing in the urine as they dehydrated her. Her back bruised from her shoulders to her feet. Her hands and feet are purple. That she had internal bleeding from the liver and other organs (i.e. the reproductive track) would not be the least surprising at this point. One of the doctors quizzed her about indications for cirhossis. Peritonitis as J points out is also a specific possibility especially since they did the periocentesis. So I really suspect non-cancer causes. But my hypothetical/ worst case scenario question was really about radiation and chemo effects on someone with all the things my mother has. My experience is that radio and chemo are rougher on the body than early stage cancer. I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. But at the same time I wouldn't want to withhold treatment that would benefit her. And how do I tell which is which?
J - 11 Feb 2006 18:52 GMT > But my hypothetical/ worst case scenario question was really about radiation > and chemo effects on someone with all the things my mother has. My > experience is that radio and chemo are rougher on the body than early stage > cancer. I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks > the camel's back. But at the same time I wouldn't want to withhold > treatment that would benefit her. And how do I tell which is which? Chris, Hypothetical: ovarian cancer: is treated with surgery. (as described below) Do you honestly think she's fit for either of these (below) surgeries? I think often they don't really know for sure until they're in there as to what they'll be doing.
A very fit 85 year old maybe. But your mother ???
Even a 75 year old, with your mother's types of problems, probably wouldn't survive the surgery. Is my non-expert opinion.
If you read further there, even radiation therapy (for palliation) is questionable. Though Steph may disagree.
Here's Coumadin. Sounds like she had too much/too fast, but I really don't know.
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/warfarin_cp.htm Clearance is mentioned there.
Lasix and Coumadin is beyond my understanding. One of those (prior) web sites also mentioned cirrhosis.
Also a (newsgroup) doctor told us that people with cancer tend to have clots or bleed more, so we're all swirling around trying to understand what's happening and what's causing what. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say, at the moment. J - (not an expert)
http://www.oncologychannel.com/ovariancancer/treatmentoptions.shtml Surgery should be performed in women who have finished childbearing. This includes total hysterectomy, complete removal of the uterus; bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy, removal of the fallopian tubes and ovaries; omentectomy, removal of the fatty tissue that covers the bowels; and lymphadenectomy, removal of one or more lymph nodes.
Modified ("conservative") surgery - surgery that leaves tumor-free reproductive organs intact - may be conducted in women who still wish to still have children if (1) the tumor is confined (usually not serous or endometriotic in type, which tend to be bilateral tumors), and (2) wedge biopsy of the opposite ovary shows no evidence for disease involvement. Such a procedure carries an increased risk of relapse; therefore, total hysterectomy and salpingo-oophorectomy should be performed immediately after childbearing is complete.
The role of adjuvant, or additional, treatment in patients with early epithelial ovarian cancer remains controversial.
Chris Ness - 11 Feb 2006 22:26 GMT > Chris, > Hypothetical: ovarian cancer: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A very fit 85 year old maybe. > But your mother ??? You are absolutely right. ...
> Here's Coumadin. Sounds like she had too much/too fast, but I really don't > know. I am pretty certain she doubled up on her meds the day before I had to have her hospitalized. But the bruising didn't occur until she was already in the hospital almost a week and I am pretty certain they reduced or cancelled her Coumadin.
> Also a (newsgroup) doctor told us that people with cancer tend to have > clots or bleed more, so we're all swirling around trying to understand > what's happening and what's causing what. > I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say, at the moment. > J - (not an expert) That's alright, this is alt.cancer.support, not alt.cancer.treatment :-) so I am just bouncing ideas off you guys so I'll be better prepared to face the doctor with intelligent questions (which I will promptly forget when I need them)
J - 12 Feb 2006 08:09 GMT > > Hypothetical: ovarian cancer: > [...] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I am pretty certain she doubled up on her meds the day before I had to have > her hospitalized. The elderly get confused and mix up their meds. The other thing I discovered about the elderly is they are child-like and don't like to 'fess up when they've been breaking the rules. :)
The other is that doctors sometimes forget to review (all their) medicines with the patient.
Drugstores sometimes keep on eye on patients for drug conflicts but sometimes not, or sometimes the patient gets one medicine one drugstore and others at another drugstore or even from friends.
the first thing I would do, if was my mother, is go to her home and collect all her medications (prescribed or over the counter), vitamins/minerals, and make a list of foods in her refrigerator and snacks. There's a long list of foods that can increase bleeding and OTC's like aspirin containing medicines and snacks. I would also look for any signs of alcohol (tucked away in various locations, including empty bottles in wastebasket or trash and make a list ) since the doctor inquired about cirrhosis. It is an invasion of privacy but could be life saving. If she survives this and goes home, she must not have access to anything that could be contributing to the bleeding.
I'd box up any alcohol bottles . Take the list of those and any suspect foods/snacks, along with all medicine bottles (empty or not) to the doctor to ask if any have been a contributing factor.
> But the bruising didn't occur until she was already in > the hospital almost a week and I am pretty certain they reduced or > cancelled her Coumadin. I posted relevant details (separately) from the www.rxlist about Coumadin.
> [...] > > That's alright, this is alt.cancer.support, not alt.cancer.treatment :-) so > I am just bouncing ideas off you guys so I'll be better prepared to face > the doctor with intelligent questions (which I will promptly forget when I > need them) I would think that since the doctor thought to check the CA-125 he *might* have sent the fluid to cytology, but perhaps not. He's run an ultrasound. Perhaps by Monday, they'll have a glimmer of something.
They've done other bloodwork. I would think a chest x-ray and breast exam would not be out of the question, but she's not in any shape for other investigations, at this time. Since he mentioned cirrhosis, I would look to see if she is jaundiced. I would ask her if she's had any pain in the previous months and where. I would ask her if she's had any bleeding in the previous months and from where.
Weight loss ?
As to what questions to ask the doctor, I think you'll be there collecting information from them and mostly listening, because at this point, we're in the dark. If some come to mind, between now and then, make a list of them so you don't forget. J
alex - 12 Feb 2006 15:14 GMT Chris
> They've done other bloodwork. I would think a chest x-ray and breast exam > would [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > don't forget. > J Chris's mother is in a nursing home where the medications are dispensed. I am assuming before that she was in a hospital, any medication error belongs to the MD, pharmacist and nurses. Jaundice is a very end stage symptom and I am positive that LFTs were drawm in the hospital. Also upon admission, all body parts including the breast where examined. The most obvoius cause of this given the very very limited medical history is portal hypertension due to end stage heart disease. This is where the internet can not lead to false information
Chris Ness - 12 Feb 2006 23:21 GMT >> I am pretty certain she doubled up on her meds the day before I had to >> have her hospitalized. > > The elderly get confused and mix up their meds. > The other thing I discovered about the elderly is they are child-like and > don't like to 'fess up when they've been breaking the rules. :) Amen.
> The other is that doctors sometimes forget to review (all their) medicines > with the patient. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > collect all her medications (prescribed or over the counter), > vitamins/minerals, and make a list of foods in her refrigerator and ...
> I'd box up any alcohol bottles . Take the list of those and any suspect > foods/snacks, along with all medicine bottles (empty or not) to the doctor > to ask if any have been a contributing factor. I don't think this is a problem. I don't keep much and she isn't either going out or taking mine.
>> But the bruising didn't occur until she was already in >> the hospital almost a week and I am pretty certain they reduced or >> cancelled her Coumadin. ...
> I would think that since the doctor thought to check the CA-125 he *might* > have sent the fluid to cytology, but perhaps not. He's run an ultrasound. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I would ask her if she's had any bleeding in the previous months and from > where. Not jaundiced but who would see yellow through the purple, although she has been improving since the transfusion, preicentesis and transfer to the nursing home.
> Weight loss ? 50 lbs (don't know what that is in stones) at 7.2lbs/gal, that would be almost 7 gallons of water. I don't think she has lost any muscle or fat. But that was what she was in for. She put 35 on since Christmas and still was carrying some from the first confinement in Pennsylvania.
BTW, she is definitely more mentally with it AND she seems more motivated to do the PT exercises so she can go home than she was at the nursing home in PA.
Interestingly, she seems to be doing better than most of the other otherer patients at the home. At the risk of being self-congratulatory, Maybe it just because I visit once or twice every day and the others seem to be abandoned. I have made it a point to speak to every one that makes eye contact with me.
J - 13 Feb 2006 01:42 GMT > >> But the bruising didn't occur until she was already in > >> the hospital almost a week and I am pretty certain they reduced or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Not jaundiced but who would see yellow through the purple, Whites of her eyes?
> although she has > been improving since the transfusion, preicentesis and transfer to the > nursing home. and coumadin reductions
> > Weight loss ? > > > 50 lbs (don't know what that is in stones) at 7.2lbs/gal, that would be > almost 7 gallons of water. I don't think she has lost any muscle or fat. > But that was what she was in for. She put 35 on since Christmas and still > was carrying some from the first confinement in Pennsylvania. Sorry Chris, I realized after I posted, that weight loss was a stupid question on my part. :p I'm cautiously optimisitc. We don't know the reason (yet) for the elevated CA125. Paracentesis - http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003896.htm We don't know if that will recur and have to be redone.
CA125 can be very high 20,000 (perhaps even higher) http://www.eyesontheprize.org/FAQ/tx/ca125.html Maybe they'll retest it, unless they've since discovered the reason.
> BTW, she is definitely more mentally with it AND she seems more motivated to > do the PT exercises so she can go home than she was at the nursing home in > PA. She sounds like a sweetie. I sure hope she continues to improve and no damage has been done and that it's nothing more than her meds needing adjustment, but again, I'm cautiously optimistic. If anything suddenly happens, Chris, know that you've done the best you can for your mother.
> Interestingly, she seems to be doing better than most of the other otherer > patients at the home. At the risk of being self-congratulatory, Maybe it > just because I visit once or twice every day and the others seem to be > abandoned. Some are, unfortunately. Others have people who visit, perhaps different times than when you are there or not as able to visit as frequently. Sadly.
> I have made it a point to speak to every one that makes eye contact with me. Thank you. I'm sure it's appreciated. I'll be thinking of you and your mother and hope things continue to improve. Take care out there. I saw the weather on the news. Keep in touch and let us know how it's going, please. J
J - 12 Feb 2006 07:35 GMT > Here's Coumadin. Sounds like she had too much/too fast, but I really don't know. > > http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/warfarin_cp.htm Clearance is mentioned there. CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
An anticoagulation effect generally occurs within 24 hours after drug administration. However, peak anticoagulant effect may be delayed 72 to 96 hours. The duration of action of a single dose of racemic warfarin is 2 to 5 days. The effects of COUMADIN may become more pronounced as effects of daily maintenance doses overlap.
Absorption COUMADIN is essentially completely absorbed after oral administration with peak concentration generally attained within the first 4 hours.
Metabolism
The elimination of warfarin is almost entirely by metabolism. COUMADIN is stereoselectively metabolized by hepatic microsomal enzymes (cytochrome P-450) to inactive hydroxylated metabolites (predominant route) and by reductases to reduced metabolites (warfarin alcohols). The warfarin alcohols have minimal anticoagulant activity. The metabolites are principally excreted into the urine; and to a lesser extent into the bile. The metabolites of warfarin that have been identified include dehydrowarfarin, two diastereoisomer alcohols, .4-, 6-, 7-, 8- and 10-hydroxywarfarin. The cytochrome P-450 isozymes involved in the metabolism of warfarin include 2C9,2C19,2C8,2C18,1A2,and 3A4. 2C9 is likely to be the principal form of human liver P-450 which modulates the in vivo anticoagulant activity of warfarin.
Excretion
The terminal half-life of warfarin after a single dose is approximately one week; however, the effective half-life ranges from 20 to 60 hours, with a mean of about 40 hours. The clearance of R-warfarin is generally half that of S-warfarin, thus as the volumes of distribution are similar, the half-life of R-warfarin is longer than that of S-warfarin. The half-life of R-warfarin ranges from 37 to 89 hours, while that of S-warfarin ranges from 21 to 43 hours. Studies with radiolabeled drug have demonstrated that up to 92% of the orally administered dose is recovered in urine. Very little warfarin is excreted unchanged in urine. Urinary excretion is in the form of
CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
COUMADIN and other coumarin anticoagulants act by inhibiting the synthesis of vitamin K dependent clotting factors, which include Factors II,VII,IX and X, and the anticoagulant proteins C and S. Half-lives of these clotting factors are as follows: Factor II - 60 hours, VII - 4-6 hours, IX - 24 hours, and X - 48-72 hours. The half-lives of proteins C and S are approximately 8 hours and 30 hours, respectively. The resultant in vivo effect is a sequential depression of Factors VII,IX,X and II activities. Vitamin K is an essential cofactor for the post ribosomal synthesis of the vitamin K dependent clotting factors. The vitamin promotes the biosynthesis of -carboxyglutamic acid residues in the proteins which are essential for biological activity. Warfarin is thought to interfere with clotting factor synthesis by inhibition of the regeneration of vitamin K1 epoxide. The degree of depression is dependent upon the dosage administered. Therapeutic doses of warfarin decrease the total amount of the active form of each vitamin K dependent clotting factor made by the liver by approximately 30% to 50%.
An anticoagulation effect generally occurs within 24 hours after drug administration. However, peak anticoagulant effect may be delayed 72 to 96 hours. The duration of action of a single dose of racemic warfarin is 2 to 5 days. The effects of COUMADIN may become more pronounced as effects of daily maintenance doses overlap. Anticoagulants have no direct effect on an established thrombus, nor do they reverse is chemic tissue damage. However, once a thrombus has occurred, the goal of anticoagulant treatment is to prevent further extension of the formed clot and prevent secondary thromboembolic complications which may result in serious and possibly fatal sequelae.
Pharmacokinetics
COUMADIN is a racemic mixture of the R- and S-enantiomers. The S-enantiomer exhibits 2-5 times more anticoagulant activity than the R-enantiomer in humans, but generally has a more rapid clearance.
Absorption
COUMADIN is essentially completely absorbed after oral administration with peak concentration generally attained within the first 4 hours.
Distribution
There are no differences in the apparent volumes of distribution after intravenous and oral administration of single doses of warfarin solution. Warfarin distributes into a relatively small apparent volume of distribution of about 0.14 liter/kg. A distribution phase lasting 6 to 12 hours is distinguishable after rapid intravenous or oral administration of an aqueous solution. Using a one compartment model, and assuming complete bioavailability, estimates of the volumes of distribution of R- and S-warfarin are similar to each other and to that of the race-mate. Concentrations in fetal plasma approach the maternal values, but warfarin has not been found in human milk (see WARNINGS: Lactation). Approximately 99% of the drug is bound to plasma proteins.
Metabolism
The elimination of warfarin is almost entirely by metabolism. COUMADIN is stereoselectively metabolized by hepatic microsomal enzymes (cytochrome P-450) to inactive hydroxylated metabolites (predominant route) and by reductases to reduced metabolites (warfarin alcohols). The warfarin alcohols have minimal anticoagulant activity. The metabolites are principally excreted into the urine; and to a lesser extent into the bile. The metabolites of warfarin that have been identified include dehydrowarfarin, two diastereoisomer alcohols, .4-, 6-, 7-, 8- and 10-hydroxywarfarin. The cytochrome P-450 isozymes involved in the metabolism of warfarin include 2C9,2C19,2C8,2C18,1A2,and 3A4. 2C9 is likely to be the principal form of human liver P-450 which modulates the in vivo anticoagulant activity of warfarin.
Excretion
The terminal half-life of warfarin after a single dose is approximately one week; however, the effective half-life ranges from 20 to 60 hours, with a mean of about 40 hours. The clearance of R-warfarin is generally half that of S-warfarin, thus as the volumes of distribution are similar, the half-life of R-warfarin is longer than that of S-warfarin. The half-life of R-warfarin ranges from 37 to 89 hours, while that of S-warfarin ranges from 21 to 43 hours. Studies with radiolabeled drug have demonstrated that up to 92% of the orally administered dose is recovered in urine. Very little warfarin is excreted unchanged in urine. Urinary excretion is in the form of metabolites.
Elderly
Patients 60 years or older appear to exhibit greater than expected prothrombin time (PT)/International Normalized Ratio (INR) response to the anticoagulant effects of warfarin. The cause of the increased sensitivity to the anticoagulant effects of warfarin in this age group is unknown. This increased anticoagulant effect from warfarin may be due to a combination of pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic factors. Racemic warfarin clearance may be unchanged or reduced with increasing age. Limited information suggests there is no difference in the clearance of S-warfarin in the elderly versus young subjects. However, there may be a slight decrease in the clearance of R-warfarin in the elderly as compared to the young. Therefore, as patient age increases, a lower dose of warfarin is usually required to produce a therapeutic level of anticoagulation.
Hepatic dysfunction can potentiate the response to warfarin through impaired synthesis of clotting factors and decreased metabolism of warfarin.
The most serious risks associated with anticoagulant therapy with warfarin sodium are hemorrhage in any tissue or organ and, less frequently (<0.1%), necrosis and/or gangrene of skin and other tissues. The risk of hemorrhage is related to the level of intensity and the duration of anticoagulant therapy.
t cannot be emphasized too strongly that treatment of each patient is a highly individualized matter. COUMADIN (Warfarin Sodium), a narrow therapeutic range (index) drug, may be affected by factors such as other drugs and dietary Vitamin K. Dosage should be controlled by periodic determinations of PT/INR or other suitable coagulation tests.
Caution should be observed when COUMADIN is administered in any situation or in the presence of any predisposing condition where added risk of hemorrhage, necrosis, and/or gangrene is present.
PRECAUTIONS
Periodic determination of PT/INR or other suitable coagulation test is essential.
Numerous factors, alone or in combination, including travel, changes in diet, environment, physical state and medications, including botanicals, may influence response of the patient to anticoagulants. It is generally good practice to monitor the patients response with additional PT/INR determinations in the period immediately after discharge from the hospital, and whenever other medications, including botanicals, are initiated, discontinued or taken irregularly. The following factors are listed for reference; however, other factors may also affect the anticoagulant response.
Drugs may interact with COUMADIN through pharmacodynamic or pharmacokinetic mechanisms. Pharmacodynamic mechanisms for drug interactions with COUMADIN are synergism (impaired hemostasis, reduced clotting factor synthesis), competitive antagonism (vitamin K), and altered physiologic control loop for vitamin K metabolism (hereditary resistance). Pharmacokinetic mechanisms for drug interactions with COUMADIN are mainly enzyme induction, enzyme inhibition, and reduced plasma protein binding. It is important to note that some drugs may interact by more than one mechanism.
The following factors, alone or in combination, may be responsible for INCREASED PT/INR response
ENDOGENOUS FACTORS (see the rest including a long list of foods and medicines that can interact)
Special Risk Patients COUMADIN (Warfarin Sodium) is a narrow therapeutic range (index) drug, and caution should be observed when warfarin sodium is administered to certain patients such as the elderly or debilitated or when administered in any situation or physical condition where added risk of hemorrhage is present.
Caution should be observed when COUMADIN (or warfarin) is administered concomitantly with nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), including aspirin, to be certain that no change in anticoagulation dosage is required.
alex - 12 Feb 2006 15:14 GMT >> Here's Coumadin. Sounds like she had too much/too fast, but I really >> don't know. Due to the heart failure, coumadin prevents strokes since the heart is pumping inefficiently I am assuming this is the reason Chris's mother is getting the drug.. To discontinue coumadin would be part of a palliative care plan,since there is a very high change of a stroke. Coumadin is regulated by a blood test, the test is not perfect is you make changes it may take several days for the adjustments to take effect. Most medical doctors are very familiar with adjusting coumadin especially a MD who practices in a nursing home. As far as the bruising goes, the skin of many elderly people is very fragile, elders not on coumadin tend to have horrible bruises from lab draws and IVs. Sometimes just turning can cause a bruise. Add coumadin and the situation is worse.
Age-related causes of easy bruising in older adults has many causes.Most bruises form when small blood vessels (capillaries) near your skin's surface are broken by the impact of a blow or injury. When this happens, blood leaks out of the vessels and initially appears as a bluish-black mark. Eventually your body reabsorbs the blood and the mark disappears. Some people - especially women - are more prone to bruising than are others. As you get older, several factors may contribute to increased bruising, including:
a.. Aging capillaries. Over time, the tissues supporting these vessels weaken, and capillary walls become more fragile and prone to rupture. b.. Thinning skin. With age, your skin becomes thinner and loses some of the protective fatty layer that helps cushion your blood vessels against injury. Excessive exposure to the sun can affect your skin much like aging does. Generally, the harder the blow, the larger the bruise. However, if you bruise easily, a minor bump - one you may not even notice - can result in substantial discoloration. Your arms and legs are typical locations for bruises. Chris, when you go visit you Mom today, the nurse should be able to tell you if her skin is the type is easily bruise, this is part of the nursing assessment they performed when she was admitted. Also the reason for the coumadin and how her last PT/INR are if they are therapeutic your mom will be prescribed the drug, if high they will hold the drug.
Your Mom's case is very complex, it is great to be a patient advocate. But often times well meaning people can give you misinformation. Steph is right in asking what is the goal of your mother's care. The experts in your mother's care are the professional healthcare providers who are assisting your mom. Questions I would ask at the team meeting ( and I say the team meeting because some of these questions can't be answered by a doctor).
How advanced is the CHF? What is the likely hood of mother returning to point of being able to live independently? What is the significance of the CA125?
Is a cancer workup needed? Or would it cause more distress than it is worth?
After you have these answers you and your mother can choose the right plan of care. Best of luck, alex
J - 12 Feb 2006 15:26 GMT > >> Here's Coumadin. Sounds like she had too much/too fast, but I really > >> don't know. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > getting the drug.. To discontinue coumadin would be part of a palliative > care plan,since there is a very high change of a stroke. Nobody's talking about discontinuing coumadin. As usual, you're off on a tangent of your own. J
Steph - 11 Feb 2006 19:29 GMT >>> This is about CA125. >>> http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/issues/v03n01/ca125.html [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > the camel's back. But at the same time I wouldn't want to withhold > treatment that would benefit her. And how do I tell which is which? You have to first decide what you expect treatment to achieve.........
alex - 11 Feb 2006 20:46 GMT I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks
>> the camel's back. But at the same time I wouldn't want to withhold >> treatment that would benefit her. And how do I tell which is which? > > You have to first decide what you expect treatment to achieve......... Aren't you putting the cart in front of the horse? Chris's mother hasn't been diagnosed with cancer. J mentions peritonitis is an inflammation of the peritoneum, the thin membrane that lines the abdominal wall and covers most of the organs of the body. There are two major types of peritonitis. Primary peritonitis is caused by the spread of an infection from the blood and lymph nodes to the peritoneum. This type of peritonitis is rare - less than 1% of all cases of peritonitis are primary. The more common type of peritonitis, called secondary peritonitis, is caused by the entry of bacteria or enzymes into the peritoneum from the gastrointestinal or biliary tract. Both cases of peritonitis are very serious and can be life-threatening if not treated properly. From the descriptiion a tap was done, if it was peritonitis she would be in the hosptial on antibotics.
Cbris, why was your mother's belly tap? Did they tell you why? I would guess, and only a guess she had acities which is the presence of excess fluid in the peritoneal cavity. It is a common clinical finding with a wide range of causes, but develops most frequently as a part of the decompensation of previously asymptomatic chronic liver disease. Also can be caused by CHF. The nursing home physician well versed in CHF due to the patients s/he treats. if is severe it really doesn't matter if you mother has cancer or not since her heart will go before the cancer takes over. When they tapped your mother,did they send the fluid to cytology since cancer cells would show up if she had ovarian cancer.
Alex
Chris Ness - 11 Feb 2006 22:42 GMT >... From the descriptiion a tap was done, if it was peritonitis she > would be in the hosptial on antibotics. If they were aware of it. I haven't heard a white count. And she has been uncomfortable in the lower abdomen since before I took her in.
> Cbris, why was your mother's belly tap? Did they tell you why? I would > guess, and only a guess she had acities which is the presence of excess [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be > caused by CHF. She has CHF. But is that the cause of the fluid retention? Or just another symptom/side effect of the fluid retention. And that is why the draining. They had been reducing her fluid by a Lasix and fluid-intake/NaCl control slowly so as not to dehydrate her too much. I liken it to draining a swimming pool. In her case the brain would be the shallow end and her legs and lower abdomen the deep end. Her legs reduced to normal early on, but her belly did not. So, Sunday night they physically drained her lower abdomen. Through a lot of this she has been confused and forgetful. Now she is alert and a whole lot more mentally sharp.
> The nursing home physician well versed in CHF due to the > patients s/he treats. if is severe it really doesn't matter if you mother > has cancer or not since her heart will go before the cancer takes over. I hate to say it this way, but with any luck you will be right. There would be less pain involved.
> When > they tapped your mother,did they send the fluid to cytology since cancer > cells would show up if she had ovarian cancer. I would hope so, but won't find out till Monday. Isn't that standard practice?
alex - 12 Feb 2006 03:48 GMT >> When >> they tapped your mother,did they send the fluid to cytology since cancer >> cells would show up if she had ovarian cancer. > > I would hope so, but won't find out till Monday. Isn't that standard > practice? Is would be standard practice to send the specimen to cytology if they thought cancer. Since her primary diagnosis is CHF, they might not have thought of it at the time. Has the doctor told you how severe the CHF is? Usually the refer to an ejection Fraction. Usually patients who have mild CHF respond to therapy ( diuretics) and are better in a short period of time usually less than 24 hours. A patient with severe CHF would qualify for palliative cancer ( since she would not be a candidate for high tech treatment such as a LVAD or heart transplant). CHF is a kinder and gentler way to depart this world then some cancers.
Steph - 12 Feb 2006 07:18 GMT > I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks >>> the camel's back. But at the same time I wouldn't want to withhold [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Aren't you putting the cart in front of the horse? Absolutely not. Whatever the diagnosis, the question is still number 1
alex - 12 Feb 2006 14:39 GMT ...
>> I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks >>>> the camel's back. But at the same time I wouldn't want to withhold [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Absolutely not. > Whatever the diagnosis, the question is still number 1 DUH! I was referring to the diagonis and treatment of ovarian cancer which maybe a secondary or incidental diagnosis depending on the severity of CHF.
Steph - 12 Feb 2006 18:00 GMT > ... >>> I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > maybe a secondary or incidental diagnosis depending on the severity of > CHF. He said she has stage 4 cervical cancer.........that's much more likely to be the problem than chf, I would think.
alex - 12 Feb 2006 18:12 GMT >> ... >>>> I am scared that cancer treatment would be the straw that breaks [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > He said she has stage 4 cervical cancer.........that's much more likely to > be the problem than chf, I would think. His MIL ( mother-in-law) has stage 4 cervical cancer, this is his mother, who doesn't have a cancer diagnosis from what I can read, otherwise he refers to his mother-in-law as mother.
Chris Ness - 12 Feb 2006 23:01 GMT > He said she has stage 4 cervical cancer.........that's much more likely to > be the problem than chf, I would think. Oops, Oops, Oops, The stage 4 cervical is my mother-in-law. The congestive heart failure and CA125 is my mother.
Steph - 12 Feb 2006 23:55 GMT >> He said she has stage 4 cervical cancer.........that's much more likely >> to >> be the problem than chf, I would think. > > Oops, Oops, Oops, The stage 4 cervical is my mother-in-law. The congestive > heart failure and CA125 is my mother. I'm easily confused............
Chris Ness - 11 Feb 2006 22:26 GMT > You have to first decide what you expect treatment to achieve......... And that is the prime thing I don't know.
clifto - 15 Feb 2006 17:05 GMT > (although I have to question this web page if they can't spell fibroids properly) > :p
:) Even if doctors do use spell checkers, don't assume webmasters do.
 Signature If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination, my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.
alex - 11 Feb 2006 16:40 GMT > This is about CA125. > http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/issues/v03n01/ca125.html Both articles posted cite the test as a way to track the effectiveness of treatment and the possibility of recurrence of cancer. It is not effective as a diagnostic tool, meaning is should not be used for people to screen out cancer. When I was getting treatment for my cancer, they did not use any tumor markers, even though I read on the internet how somebody was concerned about an elevated reading I was concerned that I was not getting proper care. Now, I realize that many doctors cave into patient pressure demanding tests be done and often suffer emotional distress when in fact the tests are not that accurate. I was told they were only on value with patients with advanced illness and even then they are not an accurate reflection of the disease process. For example, as a nurse I would have patients with low tumor markers yet they died. Other patients would be working and not effected by their cancer and have high levels. They are only one part of the clinical evaluation an oncologist uses to formulate a treatment plan. The article written by the Americans cite the possibility of the CA 125 as diagnostic tool. I know from personal experience going to the high risk GYN clinic at an associated hospital, they do not recommend the CA 125 as a screening tool. Then I would question why did they draw the test,perhaps they saw something in the ultrasound Anyways an oncologist can make the diagnosis after a clinical examination. Waiting is always very trying. The doctor at the nursing home gave you great information, since it is only one small piece of a large puzzle.
Steph - 11 Feb 2006 17:14 GMT >> This is about CA125. >> http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/issues/v03n01/ca125.html [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > nursing home gave you great information, since it is only one small piece > of a large puzzle. Just for the record, "screening" is what you do to people who are well with no symptoms, to try to find very early cancers. That isn't the story here
alex - 12 Feb 2006 04:19 GMT What are the uses of tumor markers? My understanding is that tumor markers should not be used a single diagnostic tool since they can have false positives. I do understand the use of screening. as population based method of detection, but the definitions I see for screening are "to test or examine for the presence of something (as a disease)" . Now Chris is worrying about ovarian cancer, when in fact the only information we really know is that his mother has refractory CHF, and the discussion has progressed to ovarian surgery and chemotherapy and perhaps even a little radiation therapy. To me this is a classic case too little information causing lots of emotional distress.
Emily - 11 Feb 2006 11:41 GMT mness215@comcast.net said...
> And why do crises always happen on Friday afternoon when you can't contact > anyone until Monday? They don't. Sometimes they happen late on a Thursday night when everything's getting ready to shut down the following day for a bank holiday weekend when just about everyone you want is off on their summer hols anyway and you can't do anything in practical terms until the following Tuesday. Alternative answer: because they can.
Chin up and have some {{{{{hugs}}}}} from someone who reckons that just occasionally the ju-ju is having a laugh in the unkindest way possible.
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