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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / August 2005

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neuroendocrine carcinoma "large cell" of the colon

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Robert Sorrells - 21 Aug 2005 15:24 GMT
Hi All,

My mom, 74, is recovering from colon surgery.  The pathology report of the
tumor is neuroendocrine carcinoma "large cell" of the colon.  Its stage 4,
undifferentiated, many lymph nodes positive.   She's to visit the oncologist
on Monday, who will most likely recommend agressive chemo.

My sister-in-law is a nurse, and neither of us can find much on this rare
cancer.  From what I understand, its very rare for this type of cancer to be
found in the colon.

Any suggestions on finding treatment / studies would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob
J - 21 Aug 2005 16:41 GMT
> My mom, 74, is recovering from colon surgery.  The pathology report of the
> tumor is neuroendocrine carcinoma "large cell" of the colon.  Its stage 4,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Any suggestions on finding treatment / studies would be appreciated.

Hello Bob, Thank you for all the information.
I was just reading, the other day, that undifferentiated is the worst to have
(but I've lost the web page).

This was an explanation given us previously by Steph (oncologist/radiation onc)
Tumours are broadly classified as "well-differentiated" (looking very similar to
the tissue and cells of origin), "moderately differentiated", and "poorly
differentiated" (having very few features in common with the tissue or cells of
origin).
Sometimes, tumours are so poorly differentiated that it is even difficult to
decide what is the tissue of origin. They may be called "undifferentiated".
/quote

and further in the same discussion, another oncologist calls undifferentiated =
G3's
"Its bad from the point of view that these undifferentiated (G3) cancer cells
tend to grow faster than the well differentiated (G1) tumours. But that is not a
big deal if you've been well-operated, but it can make the race for survival
quite exciting if one is relying on chemo and/or radiation to be cured..
The good thing about the G3 tumours is that their rapid growth may make them
more sensitive to radiation and chemo.
Or at least this has been assumed to be the case for years. /quote

_If_ all the above is true, I'm not sure that a 74 year old would find an
aggressive race exciting.

I'm sorry you've found us so late. I'm not sure if Steph is on "newgroup duty"
today (or not).
It would be good to have a good current talkout about the above and
neuroendocrine tumours.

Perhaps he'll tell us what he would recommend to himself or a loved one for same
diagnosis.
Or perhaps he would share which chemo(s) he would use for same.

Watch for his reply,
J
geralvon - 21 Aug 2005 17:15 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Thanks,
> Bob

Hi Bob,  Neuroendocrine tumors are indeed very rare.  I guess
technically tumors of the endocrine glands such as the adrenal glands
are "neuroendocrine" although they are not so rare.  But the rare ones
grow in tissues where you don't expect to find endocrine tissue
(hormone production).  At least that is my understanding of it, having
read about them a few years ago.  As J said, "aggressive" isn't
necessarily bad.  I have an aggressive large cell lymphoma, but because
it grows so wild and so fast it happens to be very sensitive to any
attempt of chemotherapy or even to immunotherapy.  The way I see it the
aggressive tumor cells have so many abnormalities in their genes and
tweaking them just a bit causes those cells to die or commit suicide.
I also seem to recall that neuroendocrine tumors are being treated by
"orphan" drugs (which are experimental) but often have dramatically
good results.  I hope that this will be true for your mom.  Some time
ago I was following the information on the antiangiogenesis drugs.
Maybe a good site to begin your search into your mom's condition would
be to look at the Entremed website.  The idea of starving tumors by
interfering with their blood supply was started by a surgeon who turned
researcher.  At any rate that might be a place to begin your search for
information on experimental drugs and drug trials.  Good luck.  I'll
look back at what I used to look at and write back if I find something
which might be useful.

Harold
geralvon - 21 Aug 2005 17:55 GMT
I just remembered that carcinoid is a neuroendocrine tumor often found
in the gut.  It is not that rare.  Find out whether this is the type
your mom has.  Here is a website specifically for carcinoid:
http://www.carcinoid.org/pcf/indepth.shtml

Harold
Robert Sorrells - 21 Aug 2005 18:05 GMT
Thanks Harold & J

Your posts are very helpful.   I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks,
Bob

> I just remembered that carcinoid is a neuroendocrine tumor often found
> in the gut.  It is not that rare.  Find out whether this is the type
> your mom has.  Here is a website specifically for carcinoid:
> http://www.carcinoid.org/pcf/indepth.shtml
>
> Harold
J - 21 Aug 2005 19:24 GMT
> Your posts are very helpful.   I'll let you know how it goes.

Hello Robert,
Here's a discussion of Neuroendocrine Tumors of the Gastrointestinal Tract
http://www.cancernetwork.com/textbook/morev18.htm
Which I find confusing and don't mention large cell.

and
<http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/HPI/CancerManagementGuidelines/Gastrointestinal/12.Car
cinoidNeuroendocrineTumours/12Neuroendocrine.htm
>

"A subset of neuroendocrine tumours show poor differentiation and grow more
rapidly. Combination chemotherapy with cisplatin-etoposide can be effective
for this group"  Cisplatin is a platinum, which is harder to tolerate.

Keep checking back, before you go to the oncologist. Steph might have a
one-liner (or more) reply for you.
If we're not helping, at least we're keeping you busy reading.;-)
J
J - 22 Aug 2005 08:34 GMT
> Thanks Harold & J
>
> Your posts are very helpful.   I'll let you know how it goes.

Hello Bob,
I see that Steph's been by leaving no comment.

We'll watch for your update with interest and caring.
Best,
J
Robert Sorrells - 23 Aug 2005 04:02 GMT
Well, the Oncologist said that he's not quite sure what to do.   He's never
had or heard of a case like it.   This is actually reassuring that the
Oncologist isn't pretending to know how to treat it, since we've had a lot
of educated people trying to find data on this rare cancer.  The Oncologist
is going to call several of his collegues across the country this week, and
come up with a recommended treatment.   Some form of chemo will most likely
begin next week.

I sent my mom and sister-in-law nurse an email with information and links
from this newsgroup post, which was VERY helpful.  They are studying it and
comparing it to the Oncologist initial recommendations.

Thanks for everyone's help and support !!  It means a lot.

Bob

> > Thanks Harold & J
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Best,
> J
Steph - 23 Aug 2005 05:30 GMT
> Well, the Oncologist said that he's not quite sure what to do.   He's
> never
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bob

Rare cancers are always a bit tricky, but the 'questions" are the
same...............
J - 23 Aug 2005 17:49 GMT
> Well, the Oncologist said that he's not quite sure what to do.   He's never
> had or heard of a case like it.   This is actually reassuring that the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> from this newsgroup post, which was VERY helpful.  They are studying it and
> comparing it to the Oncologist initial recommendations.

Hello Bob,
Thanks for the update.
Steph wants me to post his Questions to Ask to you http://tinyurl.com/4akk6

After reading the other websites that I provided and those that follow...
I think I'm clear that chemo doesn't cure your mother's type of cancer and I
think I'm clear that none of the previous posters with same cancer, came back
to say "hey, I'm still here".

"Cancers that arise in the neuroendocrine system are found throughout the
body"  - I did find other body location/websites, but only included lung, since
it may be helpful for those with SCLC and/or to me.

Some of the following might help you answer Steph's Questions to Ask

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/cancer/general/glossary/n.htm
Neuroendocrine tumor refers to the type of cell that a tumor grows from rather
than where that tumor is located. Neuroendocrine cells produce hormones or
regulatory proteins, and so tumors of these cells usually have symptoms that
are related to the specific hormones that they produce. Neuroendocrine cells
have roles both in the endocrine system and the nervous system. They produce
and secrete a variety of regulatory hormones, or neuropeptides, which include
neurotransmitters and growth factors. When these cells become cancerous , they
grow and overproduce their specific neuropeptide. Neuroendocrine tumors are
generally rare. One type of neuroendocrine tumor is a carcinoid tumor. This
type of tumor can occur in the intestinal tract, appendix, rectum, bronchial
tubes, or ovary. Most carcinoid tumors secrete serotonin. When the blood
concentration of this hormone is high enough, it causes carcinoid syndrome.
This syndrome refers to a variety of symptoms that are caused by the excessive
amount of hormone secreted rather than by the tumor itself.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_1X_What_is_lung_carcinoid_tumo
r_56.asp


The Diffuse Neuroendocrine System
The diffuse neuroendocrine system is made up of cells that are in certain ways
like nerve cells and in other ways like cells of endocrine (hormone-producing)
glands. These cells do not form an actual organ like the pancreas, adrenal, or
thyroid. Instead, they are scattered throughout your body in organs like the
lungs, stomach, and intestines.

Neuroendocrine cells produce hormones like adrenalin and adrenalin-like
substances. This may help control air flow and blood flow in the lungs and may
help control growth of other types of lung cells. These neuroendocrine cells
may detect decreased oxygen or increased carbon dioxide in the air we breathe
and then release chemical messages to help the lungs adjust to changes in air
composition. People who live at higher altitudes have more lung neuroendocrine
cells, apparently because there is less oxygen in the air they breathe.

Neuroendocrine Cancers
Like most cells in your body, lung neuroendocrine cells sometimes undergo
certain changes that cause them to grow too much and form tumors. The tumors
that develop from neuroendocrine cells are known as neuroendocrine tumors or
neuroendocrine cancers.

There are 4 types of neuroendocrine lung tumors. The most serious type, small
cell lung cancer (SCLC), is one of the most rapidly growing and spreading of
all cancers. It is discussed in a separate American Cancer Society lung cancer
document. Large cell neuroendocrine carcinoma is a rare cancer that, with the
exception of the size of the cells forming the cancer, is very similar to SCLC
in its prognosis (outlook for survival) and in how patients are treated.
Carcinoid tumors, also known as carcinoids, comprise the other 2 types of lung
neuroendocrine cancer: typical carcinoid and atypical carcinoid. This document
will only cover these 2 types of tumors.

http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/2/348
Large cell neuroendocrine carcinoma (LCNEC) and large cell carcinoma with
neuroendocrine morphology of the lung are both currently classified as subtypes
of large cell carcinomas according to the World Health Organization IASLC
classification system for lung and pleural tumors. Prognosis is reported as
similar to that of small cell carcinomas. There is no consensus on management
of this subset and adjuvant chemotherapy is recommended by some for early stage
LCNEC to impact long-term prognosis. We retrospectively reviewed a cohort of
patients at our institution who had this type of tumor to determine factors
that might influence survival.

http://www.meb.uni-bonn.de/cgi-bin/mycite?ExtRef=MEDL/93276307
Poorly differentiated neuroendocrine carcinoma of unknown primary tumor site

http://www.cancerbacup.org.uk/Cancertype/Neuroendocrine/Overview
An overview of neuroendocrine tumours

http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1999/05_01_99/brigden.htm
Improving survival in metastatic carcinoma of unknown origin
Poorly differentiated neuroendocrine tumors
A subset of patients with poorly differentiated neuroendocrine tumors has been
described (2,3). In the past, these tumors have been variously labeled as
poorly differentiated neuroendocrine tumor, anaplastic neuroendocrine
carcinoma, and extrapulmonary undifferentiated small-cell cancer. Patients
often have rapidly growing tumors in multiple sites and involvement of
mediastinal, retroperitoneal, or cervical lymph nodes. They may present with
diffuse hepatic or bone metastases but do not have the indolent histologic or
clinical features of typical carcinoid tumors. Results of immunocytochemical
studies are positive for neuron-specific enolase, and electron microscopy
demonstrates neurosecretory granules. Patients may have a response rate of over
50% to cisplatin-based chemotherapy; some patients have complete responses and
others have prolonged disease-free survival (7).

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2407/4/23
Gastrointestinal neuroendocrine (NE) tumors represent a rare and rather
heterogeneous tumor entity. Almost half of the metastatic NE gastrointestinal
tumors release excessive amounts of biogenic amines and/or neuropeptides
thereby causing a characteristic hypersecretion syndrome. The often bizarre
clinical symptoms are generally well controlled by somatostatin analogues or
interferon-? (IFN?) [1,2]. However, further growth and spread is generally not
prevented on the long by either biotherapy or conventional chemotherapy.

These next 3 might be people/places you want to speak with.... (prognosis,
treatment, how long survived etc)
http://www.wfmynews2.com/2yh/2yh_article.aspx?storyid=44944
Neuroendocrine cancer is rarely a final diagnosis. Most of the time doctors are
able to pinpoint a particular tissue or hormone that's affected.
Neuroendocrine Cancer
Small cell lung cancer is very aggressive and very common, accounting for about
a third of all lung cancers. It also falls into a larger category of cancers
called neuroendocrine cancers.
Winston-Salem, NC -- Neuroendocrine cancers are a large group of malignant
tumors that arise in tissue throughout the body. Generally these are the tissue
that make hormones.

Dr. Paul Savage, an oncologist at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
says, "It covers diseases although all of them are malignant, some of them are
relatively benign in the sense that they grow so slowly that people can live
with the disease for 10, 15, 20 and even 25 years and often don't need
treatment for sometimes as much as 5-10 years."

Neuroendocrine cancers that fall on that end of the spectrum are known for
actually making certain hormones, and often the patient loses the battle with
the increasing amount of hormone in the body and not the cancer itself.

"The other end of the spectrum is very aggressive, very rapidly growing cancer
that if untreated from the time someone has symptoms, if they opt for no
treatment, they rarely live for two months, and everything in between."

http://cancer.stanfordhospital.com/cancerTypes/neuroendocrine/default
The neuroendocrine system is made up of cells with similar properties that are
found throughout the body. These neuroendocrine cells, as their name suggests,
function as part of the nervous system and the endocrine system: they can
secrete hormones and proteins that act on both systems.

Cancers that arise in the neuroendocrine system are found throughout the body,
including in the lungs and gastrointestinal tract (e.g., stomach, intestines).
Cancerous neuroendocrine cells often flood the body with inappropriate hormones
or neurotransmitters.

http://www.csmc.edu/4085.html
The Carcinoid and Neuroendocrine Tumor Center at Cedars-Sinai

This one's so complex, I can't figure it out at all...
http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/lung_ca_neuroendocrine.htm

I hope some of this is helpful to you and doesn't give you a headache the way
trying to assimilate this info did to me.
Best of luck.
Keep in touch and let us know how it's going.
J
Robert Sorrells - 24 Aug 2005 13:11 GMT
Hi J,

That is great information.  I've got my homework assignment.

Regarding the treatment questions, her tumor was at stage 4, and it has
spread.  A lump was found and removed under her arm 2 weeks ago, and it was
the same type cancer that had spread.  I think it was lymph node under her
arm.   She's getting something called a PET scan on Thurs.  We should
hopefully know for sure if there are other tumors.

Mom is in good spirits and is wanting to fight this.  She has been in
otherwise good health... had been walking 3-5 miles / day until this summer.

My mom had regular annual physicals, but has never had a colonoscopy which
may have caught this at a early stage.  We're not sure if our family doctor
had suggested it and mom just didn't want to do it.  The surgeon encouraged
my brother and I (45 & 43) to go ahead and start getting regular
colonoscopies.

Bob

> > Well, the Oncologist said that he's not quite sure what to do.   He's never
> > had or heard of a case like it.   This is actually reassuring that the
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> This syndrome refers to a variety of symptoms that are caused by the excessive
> amount of hormone secreted rather than by the tumor itself.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_1X_What_is_lung_carcinoid_tumo
r_56.asp


> The Diffuse Neuroendocrine System
> The diffuse neuroendocrine system is made up of cells that are in certain ways
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
>
> Cancers that arise in the neuroendocrine system are found throughout the
body,
> including in the lungs and gastrointestinal tract (e.g., stomach, intestines).
> Cancerous neuroendocrine cells often flood the body with inappropriate hormones
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Keep in touch and let us know how it's going.
> J
J - 26 Aug 2005 19:19 GMT
> That is great information.  I've got my homework assignment.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> my brother and I (45 & 43) to go ahead and start getting regular
> colonoscopies.

Well Bob, here they tell us every 5 years, after age 50, if there's a strong family history
of colon cancer or I suppose if there was bleeding or a blockage one would be done earlier.

I wonder if your mother's type of cancer is addressed as much as possible, surgically.?
I do think I saw a report of one person who had it on a leg or arm. It was removed
surgically, but I'd be hard-pressed to refind
it easily again. Had I known at the time, about the lymph node, I would have saved that one
or any one that seemed close to your mother's situation. I'd have to start my search over
and revisit evey link that i clicked on.

I'm afraid due to circumstances, I will not be able to do the searching that I was hoping to
do about your mother's cancer.
At least, not in the immediate forseeable future.

Keep in touch and let us know as things develop.
Best,
J
J - 21 Aug 2005 19:17 GMT
> I just remembered that carcinoid is a neuroendocrine tumor often found
> in the gut.  It is not that rare.  Find out whether this is the type
> your mom has.  Here is a website specifically for carcinoid:
> http://www.carcinoid.org/pcf/indepth.shtml

Hi Harold,
I think the whole point of "undifferentiated" is that they don't know.
J
geralvon - 21 Aug 2005 19:50 GMT
Hi Harold,
I think the whole point of "undifferentiated" is that they don't know.
J

You may be right.  I heard about a case of a neuroendocrine tumor in
the liver but they had no idea what type it was.  Some of them
apparently don't secrete any hormones.

Harold
geralvon - 24 Aug 2005 01:29 GMT
This may be repeating some of the information already on this message
board, however, this is the first sentence from a recent paper's
abstract coming from the Dana-Farber Cancer Center in Boston:

"Gastrointestinal neuroendocrine tumors are characterized by generally
slow growth rates and the ability to secrete a variety of hormones and
biogenic amines. For patients with localized disease, surgical
resection alone is often curative..."  that is, as long as it has not
yet metastasized.
geralvon - 24 Aug 2005 01:58 GMT
There is a message board for people with neuroendocrine tumors at
http://www.acscsn.org/  You have to register and then search
"neuroendocrine".  A number of those people have the undifferentiated
type.  I'm surprised that most of them talk about chemotherapy rather
than surgery.  At any rate you may want to look there.
Robert Sorrells - 24 Aug 2005 12:45 GMT
Thanks for the info and link.  I'll check it out. Unforunately my mom's
tumor was at stage 4, and has metastasized.  A lump appeared under her arm
just after she came home from surgery.  It was removed, and found to be the
same kind of cancer.

> There is a message board for people with neuroendocrine tumors at
> http://www.acscsn.org/  You have to register and then search
> "neuroendocrine".  A number of those people have the undifferentiated
> type.  I'm surprised that most of them talk about chemotherapy rather
> than surgery.  At any rate you may want to look there.
J - 25 Aug 2005 02:27 GMT
> Thanks for the info and link.  I'll check it out. Unforunately my mom's
> tumor was at stage 4, and has metastasized.  A lump appeared under her arm
> just after she came home from surgery.  It was removed, and found to be the
> same kind of cancer.

Hello Bob,
hmmm...in her armpit...that's quite a ways from her colon.
Closer to the lung and/or breast. Have either of those been checked?
I haven't forgotten you; please hang in there.
I'd like to do some more thinking and searching on metastatic neuroendocrine
I will try to get back to you sometime tomorrow.
Meantime, if you've joined that list that Harold gave you and they tell you
locations of mets, that might be helpful here.
J
 
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